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GoingPro
09-10-2010, 6:27 PM
the other day we went to the range with 5 of us total....I didn't really have time to adjust my sights because everyone was anxious to shoot.....I plan on going to the range with me and my other friend who needs to properly sight in his AR. My question is, what is the best way to get this AR on point....i wasn't hitting anything with it.....My Arsenal SGL-20 was way more accurate than my AR.... i just recently put on a rail system and front flip up sight on my AR this is why it is off target. thanks guys

NiteQwill
09-10-2010, 6:29 PM
Are you practicing the 4 fundamentals?

Are you at least consistently grouping in the same spot?

An AR is a very accurate weapon when dialed in.

UserM4
09-10-2010, 6:29 PM
Zero it at 50yds maybe?

Mail Clerk
09-10-2010, 6:34 PM
Zero it at 50yds maybe?


I totally agree!!! If you shoot at Angeles range they'll allow you to pull the log in to 50 yards and shoot for groups. That what I did last month. At 50 yards you should be able to get on paper to get it zeroed.

Mail Clerk

X-NewYawker
09-10-2010, 6:35 PM
I have my own method for getting on paper -- I put a golfball on the 100 yard berm, not at the top, but in the middle. Then I have a very secure rest, front and rear sandbag, the rear sandbag with only 75% filled with sand, and I put the cross hairs on the golf ball and fire --- then I can see exactly where the bullet hits on t eh berm -- foot left -- high, low whatever -- and I make the gross adjustments of windage and elevation -- I take another shot at the golfball and then I am close enough to hit paper.
Some people star trying to hit on the paper, but in some cases the scope could be FEET off and you might take dozens of shots before you get on the paper.
I alos use the target that is covered with one inch squares grid, so when I am on the paper I can see exactly how many clicks I need to go.
This method is VERY fast, usually two shots (with cheap ammo) and close enough to get on the paper target.
I use this method when I have to get to the range and sight in four of five rifles for the first time.
A the public ranges, who sometimes frown on you putting anything on the berm, I just pick out a distinctive pebble on the berm. or little clump if grass, and use that.

X-NewYawker
09-10-2010, 6:37 PM
There is nothing more frustrating than shooting at the paper target -- even at 50 yards -- with an unsighted scope and not having any idea where the shots are going. You can always see the shots hit the berm at Angeles.

NiteQwill
09-10-2010, 6:37 PM
Are you zeroing irons or optics? Forgot to ask...

GoingPro
09-10-2010, 6:39 PM
iron sights....troy flip up front and rear

Don29palms
09-10-2010, 6:40 PM
I use a laser bore sight at 50 yards and that will get you on paper then fine tune after that.

X-NewYawker
09-10-2010, 6:42 PM
I use a laser bore sight at 50 yards and that will get you on paper then fine tune after that.

That will work as well -- anything where you can SEE where your rifle is pointed -- just blinding shooting at paper (even at 50 yards) won't work. The gun who sold me my guns lived over in van nuys -- he had spray painted a block spot on the white wall of the house across the street, and would put a rifle on his coffee table, and BORE SIGHT it on the black spot.

NiteQwill
09-10-2010, 6:43 PM
iron sights....troy flip up front and rear

Ok, in that case you need to make sure your fundamentals are all there. Are you zeroing at 50 yds?

Are you getting on paper?

If so, are your groups consistent?

And the obvious... did you tighten the crossbolt on the Troy sights properly?

GoingPro
09-10-2010, 6:46 PM
Ok, in that case you need to make sure your fundamentals are all there. Are you zeroing at 50 yds?

Are you getting on paper?

If so, are your groups consistent?

And the obvious... did you tighten the crossbolt on the Troy sights properly?


yeah everything was tightened and the groups were consistent...i was doing it at 25 yards....maybe i should try it at 50 yards next time and take my time since we wont have a big group.

NiteQwill
09-10-2010, 6:49 PM
yeah everything was tightened and the groups were consistent...i was doing it at 25 yards....maybe i should try it at 50 yards next time and take my time since we wont have a big group.

If your groups are consistent (within ~1.5"), then you need to adjust your irons for elevation and windage. FORS (front opposite, rear same).

And yes, zero at 50 yds since the trajectory is basically flat all the way to 250-300 yds.

It sounds like you're doing everything right. Just adjust.

UserM4
09-10-2010, 6:51 PM
If you're THAT far off, shoot at the berm and make gross adjustments to your sights first. Then set up some paper at 50yds.

voiceoftheright
09-10-2010, 9:40 PM
This is what we did in the Marines, make sure you flush-out your sights to start from scratch, elevation/windage...shoot at 35 yards (prone) but using a small dog shaped target, but any 3 inch target will probably work. It is basically the equivalent of zeroing up to 300 yards at that point and you are able to make your adjustments with minimal or no walking. Once you're in the black and your groups are good, your AR is good. If you're really hurting for time you can get it started with a bore sighter, but that's up to you. I like to do it all on the range. Not sure how far you are planning on shooting this but after 300 you need to adjust your elevation and those Troys may not have any on the rear.

ZX-10R
09-10-2010, 10:28 PM
Winner above me...I sight 25yrds. Once the group is tight then I go out to 50 and then 100. Adjustment once you are done at 25 is very minimal.

Omega13device
09-10-2010, 11:10 PM
There's a much easier way to do this.

Remove the upper and take out the BCG and charging handle. Then set it on the bench or something else solid and look through the barrel. Aim it so that you can see a target (it can be anything really) at your desired distance.

Now, while keeping the upper steady so that it doesn't move, look through your sights and adjust them until they're zeroed on the same spot.

That should get you on paper very close to being zeroed. Btw I recommend zeroing at 50 or 100 yards and reviewing this thread to understand why: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=495607

E Pluribus Unum
09-10-2010, 11:12 PM
I zero all my ARs in at 50 yards.... Zero at 50 yards, and then just aim straight at your deer 50-300 yards away.. :)

voiceoftheright
09-10-2010, 11:23 PM
There's a much easier way to do this.

Remove the upper and take out the BCG and charging handle. Then set it on the bench or something else solid and look through the barrel. Aim it so that you can see a target (it can be anything really) at your desired distance.

Now, while keeping the upper steady so that it doesn't move, look through your sights and adjust them until they're zeroed on the same spot.

That should get you on paper very close to being zeroed. Btw I recommend zeroing at 50 or 100 yards and reviewing this thread to understand why: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=495607

This right here seems much more time consuming then just shooting your target and making adjustments and much more difficult than using a laser bore sighter (which is essentially what you are doing by looking down the barrel). To each his own, but either way you will need to shoot it to see if you are actually on target. Your call.

metalliman545
09-10-2010, 11:29 PM
we zero at 25 meters in the army for 300 meter shots.

NiteQwill
09-10-2010, 11:58 PM
we zero at 25 meters in the army for 300 meter shots.

That's because in the Army we use M855 with an 8/3+1 elevation. We "simulate" 300 meters.

He has Troy sights, which have no elevation adjustments, so simulation is difficult. Zeroing at 50 yards allows a flat trajectory all the way out to 300 yards.

Either way, what is important is getting on paper and adjusting from there.

Al LaVodka
09-11-2010, 5:39 AM
There's a much easier way to do this.

Remove the upper and take out the BCG and charging handle. Then set it on the bench or something else solid and look through the barrel. Aim it so that you can see a target (it can be anything really) at your desired distance.

Now, while keeping the upper steady so that it doesn't move, look through your sights and adjust them until they're zeroed on the same spot.

That should get you on paper very close to being zeroed. Btw I recommend zeroing at 50 or 100 yards and reviewing this thread to understand why: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=495607

Ta da!!!
Al

metalliman545
09-11-2010, 5:58 AM
That's because in the Army we use M855 with an 8/3+1 elevation. We "simulate" 300 meters.

He has Troy sights, which have no elevation adjustments, so simulation is difficult. Zeroing at 50 yards allows a flat trajectory all the way out to 300 yards.

Either way, what is important is getting on paper and adjusting from there.

it doesnt matter what kind of target you use at the 25 meter range, its zeroed for 300. as long as your grouping is less than 4cm and your bullets are hitting where your aiming your gtg.
thats why you zero and then go out on the real range to knock down 300m targets.
point of impact are the same at 25 and 300
for shots inbetween you have to hold a little low but its still a center mass shot

mif_slim
09-11-2010, 7:23 AM
omeGa nailed it... I'm surprise how many people don't use that method. works everytime for my ar and bolt rifle sight-ins

CSACANNONEER
09-11-2010, 7:38 AM
The first thing you should do is boresight it, Just remove the upper from the lower and remove the BCG. Now, look down the bore and adjust your irons accordingly. No need to waste your money or time on a crappy and less thab adequet laser bore sighter POS.

pennys dad
09-11-2010, 7:51 AM
I use RIBZ sometimes: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=328143

or my adjusted one:

I sight first with Iron then optics.
I sight 25 yards on a huge sheet of white paper, large paper target at 50, and standard targets at 100 yards, then repeat the process with optics.
I also only fire 3 shot groups with each adjustment, so 3 shots/adjust, 3 shots/adjust.

NiteQwill
09-11-2010, 8:25 AM
it doesnt matter what kind of target you use at the 25 meter range, its zeroed for 300. as long as your grouping is less than 4cm and your bullets are hitting where your aiming your gtg.
thats why you zero and then go out on the real range to knock down 300m targets.
point of impact are the same at 25 and 300
for shots inbetween you have to hold a little low but its still a center mass shot

Negative. Using a M855 round with a standard issue M16A2, the ballistic data is:

50m: 25m -1.3", 50m 0.0", 100m +1.7", 150m +1.8", 200m +.2", 250m -3.4"

25m: 25m 0.0", 50m +2.7", 100m +7.2", 150m +10.1" 200m +11.3", 250m +10.4"

Using the Army standard, all shots using a 25 m zero will place rounds 1/3 upper torso on a 300 m target.

Using a 50 m zero (or close to 50 yds ~54 yds), all targets will be hit center mass without the risk of "over shooting" the target and without the need to "hold low" like most Soldiers do on the first few targets.

The Army utilizes a 25 m zero because it is easy and most repeatable. Can you imagine Soldiers zeroing at 50 m? With the amount of people who can't zero their weapons, period, you would be on the range for a fair amount of time. I recently qualified 2 weeks ago, out of 300 people, only 3/4 zero'd their rifles and were able to move onto qualification. Pathetic.

metalliman545
09-11-2010, 8:44 AM
Docs to support that claim?,
well i have some, these were apparently from Aberdeen proving grounds

http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/ss109.txt

and it also goes along to what i say and know, and even then by following this zeroing procedure the OP get can EASILY get on paper at 50+meters and then fine tune it if he feels like it. once he zeros the armys way
thats how my issue rifle is zeroed and my Ar15 back at home is zeroed. gimmie a target that i can see with my irons at 300, ill hit it. no problem.

ZX-10R
09-11-2010, 9:08 AM
AK pattern definitely gets sighted at 25yrds...From there you are good to go. This is with steel sights and optics. Most AKForum members agree the magic number is 25.

metalliman545
09-11-2010, 9:28 AM
AK pattern definitely gets sighted at 25yrds...From there you are good to go. This is with steel sights and optics. Most AKForum members agree the magic number is 25.

if you wouldve clicked the link you would have realized its not talking about the AK, its not a discussion from a group of guys on a forum. its a document.

gemini1
09-11-2010, 1:43 PM
OP is using a BUIS with no elev adjustment. Your best bet is zero at 50 yards and you'll be GTG up to 200+ yards. Now if you have the adjustable rear sights like the detachable carry handle (6/3) sight, zero at 25 yards using the RIBZ method. Info below tells you about the RIBZ as well as going to 50 yards zero for BUIS.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=328143

Also, the method mentioned above, taking out the lower and the BCG and placing the upper on a sandbag much better and economical way of getting on paper regardless of distance you want to zero.

Here's a graph copied from the above site that shows bullet path at 25, 50 and 100 yard zero:

http://www.box.net/shared/static/nfvs15lgfg.jpg

supermario
09-11-2010, 9:50 PM
There's a much easier way to do this.

Remove the upper and take out the BCG and charging handle. Then set it on the bench or something else solid and look through the barrel. Aim it so that you can see a target (it can be anything really) at your desired distance.

Now, while keeping the upper steady so that it doesn't move, look through your sights and adjust them until they're zeroed on the same spot.

That should get you on paper very close to being zeroed. Btw I recommend zeroing at 50 or 100 yards and reviewing this thread to understand why: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=495607



I use this method at home with optics. Im usually on paper and then zero in at 30yds. At 30yards its right on at 100yards.

Rob454
09-11-2010, 10:01 PM
I usually start at 25 yards. Get close on paper than move to 100 yards and fine tune. Sometimes I go 200 but I usually dont need to.

Omega13device
09-12-2010, 8:08 AM
It's inane to argue about which zeroing distance is "better". (Not that I can stop anyone from doing so.)

Whatever zeroing distance works best for your usage is the one you should choose.

If you never shoot past 200 yards then a 50 or 100-yard zero works great. If you shoot long distances with irons and have time to make elevation adjustments, then 300 works great. Just pick the right one for the job.

Nessal
09-12-2010, 8:50 AM
You need to learn how to bore sight through your AR if you are really having those issues. Take the upper off the lower. Then take the ch and bcg out. Sight down the barrel to a reference point down range. Adjust your sight picture until it is similar to your sight down barrel. This is how i sight in my scopes or irons. I always get about 2-3" away from poa. The rest is dialed in quick with 1-2 shots.