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xxsleepyxx
09-10-2010, 8:26 AM
I've recently discovered through watching videos of Kahr pistols that one cannot rack the slide to chamber a round, reliably. The company asks that you lock the slide back, insert a mag in, then hit the slide release. To me, that is a major disadvantage because it make carrying condition 2 (loaded mag inserted, no round in chamber) impractical and malfunction-prone. So my question is does other guns, especially the Glock series, have this problem. I was under the impression that all semi autos should be able to chamber a round with the magazine already inserted. With Glocks, you can even ease the slide slowly to chamber a round correct?

ocspeedracer
09-10-2010, 8:36 AM
speaking for the Glock 17, 21sf, 30 and 23... yes you are correct, sometimes it takes a push to fully chamber if you're using reloads.

Bullwinkle
09-10-2010, 8:43 AM
Which model Kahr does this supposedly happen with? I have a MK40 I sometimes use for out-of-state CCW, and it always chambers a round when manually cycling the action.

I have a K9 also, but she's a safe queen and has never been loaded (see signature).

halifax
09-10-2010, 8:46 AM
With my PM9, if I try to slowly rack the slide I do need to give it an extra push. If I do it quickly and deliberately it's not a problem.

xxsleepyxx
09-10-2010, 8:48 AM
This is been known to happen with the PM9 and CW9

maddoggie13
09-10-2010, 8:52 AM
No issue with my PM45 or P380...

xxsleepyxx
09-10-2010, 8:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKSvmMLJt_0

5:55 in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv3bwXSQvy8

8:00 in this video

Dhena81
09-10-2010, 8:53 AM
With my PM9, if I try to slowly rack the slide I do need to give it an extra push. If I do it quickly and deliberately it's not a problem.

+1 for deliberately

This has to be fud or a worn out guide rod spring.

Where's the link of the company mentioning this problem?

9mmepiphany
09-10-2010, 9:34 AM
This isn't FUD, because it is the recommended method of chambering the first rounds from the mag in the owners manual. But if you understand the reasoning behind it, it makes sense...it is just like other manuals that tell you not to load a gun, until you are ready to shoot...it is there to avoid operator error.

1. they did research and expected targeted owners, self defense oriented/ concealed carry, would carry their guns in the commonly accepted manner of full mag and loaded chamber. It is targeted toward the same market as the S&W J-frame snubbies with a more efficient design.

2. The recommendation to chamber a round using the slide stop has to do with owners not being able to hold the gun stable when racking the slide...limp wristing it. When new, the recoil springs are very tight and there isn't much butt to hold onto. New owners tend to allow the frame to rise when the slide is pulled to the rear and to come back forward when the slide is released. This does not allow the slide it's full length of travel or the slide it's intended velocity when chambering a round. Releasing the slide from it's locked back position, via the slide stop, works around this error.

3. After the factory recommended, for maximum defensive efficiency, 200 round break-in period, my CW9 will reliably chamber the top round when I hand rack the slide. I snap the slide back with my support hand, while driving the frame forward with my strong hand...which is how I handle all my pistols...and it hasn't been an issue.

My recommendation is to carry the gun as it was intended or pick a gun that will accommodate your less efficient method of carry.

paul0660
09-10-2010, 9:44 AM
They wear in so you can rack or even slingshot them reliably, which is vital for ftf drills. My experience is it takes longer than the 200 round break in.

Guns should be carried empty, or full with a round in the chamber, and NOTHING is more efficient than a J Frame snubby, if reliability factors into efficiency at all. IMO.

k1dude
09-10-2010, 9:56 AM
This isn't FUD, because it is the recommended method of chambering the first rounds from the mag in the owners manual. But if you understand the reasoning behind it, it makes sense...it is just like other manuals that tell you not to load a gun, until you are ready to shoot...it is there to avoid operator error.

1. they did research and expected targeted owners, self defense oriented/ concealed carry, would carry their guns in the commonly accepted manner of full mag and loaded chamber. It is targeted toward the same market as the S&W J-frame snubbies with a more efficient design.

2. The recommendation to chamber a round using the slide stop has to do with owners not being able to hold the gun stable when racking the slide...limp wristing it. When new, the recoil springs are very tight and there isn't much butt to hold onto. New owners tend to allow the frame to rise when the slide is pulled to the rear and to come back forward when the slide is released. This does not allow the slide it's full length of travel or the slide it's intended velocity when chambering a round. Releasing the slide from it's locked back position, via the slide stop, works around this error.

3. After the factory recommended, for maximum defensive efficiency, 200 round break-in period, my CW9 will reliably chamber the top round when I hand rack the slide. I snap the slide back with my support hand, while driving the frame forward with my strong hand...which is how I handle all my pistols...and it hasn't been an issue.

My recommendation is to carry the gun as it was intended or pick a gun that will accommodate your less efficient method of carry.

I think 9mmepiphany nailed it. I believe Kahr wanted to mimic the ease of operation of a hammerless J-frame. They did their research and probably found 99.9% of CCW holders carry with a full mag and a round in the chamber - not unlike a hammerless snubby. The Kahr has no safety, no decocker, no bells and whistles, no hammer - just like a hammerless snubby. Basically they want you to draw and fire - just like a hammerless snubby. It's the fastest way to get your weapon into action. Draw...fire. They don't want the intermediate step of racking. So they throw in a rule to stop you from doing so.

That being said, after you run about 500 rounds through a Kahr, you'll have no problem racking and releasing by hand.

nick
09-10-2010, 9:59 AM
I'm not a big fan of Kahrs, but this is one thing I've never had a problem with in my CW9 is chambering a round like that or inserting a full mag.

nick
09-10-2010, 10:00 AM
With my PM9, if I try to slowly rack the slide I do need to give it an extra push. If I do it quickly and deliberately it's not a problem.

Well, you're not supposed to follow the slide back in any semiauto.

nazgulnarsil
09-10-2010, 10:31 AM
my friend's m&p drops the slide when you insert a loaded magazine. not sure if this is intentional design but I wonder why other pistols don't do this.

jessegpresley
09-10-2010, 10:36 AM
carrying condition 2 (loaded mag inserted, no round in chamber)

That's condition 3, bro.

Keep 1 in the chamber or stay home.

9mmepiphany
09-10-2010, 11:16 AM
NOTHING is more efficient than a J Frame snubby, if reliability factors into efficiency at all. IMO.

That is certainly a valid opinion and one I shared until the introduction of the Kahr line of pistols. I've been carry a J-frame of over 20 years and currently have a tuned M-642

The Kahr is:
1. just as reliable for the first shot, with a nicer trigger stroke out of the box than any stock J-frame I've tried. the trigger on my CW9 rivals a stock K-frame.
2. is engineered to feed reliably through the whole mag...the offset feedramp was very innovative. the clearance drill is more complicated than another pull of the trigger...it does require the TRB
3. much thinner
4. has a 65% increase in available ammunition

paul0660
09-10-2010, 11:31 AM
9mmepiphany, you are saying that your Kahr is as reliable as your revolvers. I hope it stays that way.

yzernie
09-10-2010, 12:11 PM
The Kahr's do require more break-in time than most of the others. The thing that baffles me is why would someone want to CCW and not have a round in the chamber? In a self defense situation where time is of the essence, having to rack a round into the chamber seems inefficient.

jdg30
09-10-2010, 12:17 PM
I had a Kahr K40 for years that I recently sold to my brother for his first gun. I never had a single malfunction with it ever, including during the break in period. I probably shot close to 1000 rounds through it. I commonly loaded it by inserting a mag and racking the slide to chamber the first round and it never caused any problems with it.

I think as long as you pull the slide all the way back so it can get the velocity from the spring tension that it needs, you will never have a problem. Having the slide locked back and releasing it, and manually racking the slide completely rearward and releasing are the same thing.

tacticalcity
09-10-2010, 12:25 PM
I've recently discovered through watching videos of Kahr pistols that one cannot rack the slide to chamber a round, reliably. The company asks that you lock the slide back, insert a mag in, then hit the slide release. To me, that is a major disadvantage because it make carrying condition 2 (loaded mag inserted, no round in chamber) impractical and malfunction-prone. So my question is does other guns, especially the Glock series, have this problem. I was under the impression that all semi autos should be able to chamber a round with the magazine already inserted. With Glocks, you can even ease the slide slowly to chamber a round correct?

Yes, it is a major disadvantage but not for the reasons you state.

NEVER carry a firearm on your body with a loaded mag inserted, no round in chamber. I'm not trying to offend you, but that is truly knuckle-headed idea that will get you killed. Taking a professional firearms course (see the Competition and Training Section here on Calguns to find a course near you) will prove this to you without a doubt. A lot of untrained people think this gives them some sort of added safety. In truth, it is really dangerous. In a real life gun battle you will draw and forget to chamber a round. Even if you remember to wrack the slide, you will be dead before you finish doing so as the bad guy(s) just put 5 rounds into you. Fire fights last fractions of a second, not minutes. You will have a hard enough time clearing the holster, pointing in, getting a sight picture and getting rounds off as it is.

NEVER gently wrack the slide and "walk" if forward. This is one of the most common causes of feeding failures and jams. The proper way to chamber a round is to cup that large slide with your support side hand firmly, from the rear, being careful that no part of your hand is forward of the barrel, and forcefully pull the slide to rear. Pull so hard that when the slide reaches the rear your hand automatically comes off it and continues back until it hits you in the shoulder.

If your firearm does not allow for the above technique then get a different firearm.

Training doctrine, which is backed up by medical science, says that during a firefight your body will be flooded with adrenaline. Your body will literally go into shock. The very first thing to go will be your fine motor skills. You will not have the necessary fine motor skills to work that tiny little slide release with your nibble little thumb, not efficiently. Trying to do so could very easily get you killed. So I really don't care what the manual says. If the proper way to chamber a round does not work on that specific firearm, then it is the wrong firearm for self defense. I am not saying the Khar won't work properly, you guys are. For all I know it will. I haven't read that manual myself.

I cannot tell you how much a professional firearms course will help drive some of the things I've said home. You'll experience first hand just how little time you have in a firefight to get rounds down range, how badly walking the slide forward messes you up and causes feeding issues, and how impossible it is to work that tiny little slide release when under stress (and that stress is only a fraction of what you'll experience when it is for real). Your shooting ability and gun handling skills will increase drastically. You will be amazed with yourself. Besides, those course are so much damn fun. Best time you'll have with your clothes on.

They wear in so you can rack or even slingshot them reliably

Now this I would tend to believe. It is really hard for me to believe the Kahrs would have such an obvious and seriously dangerous design flaw.

NOTHING is more efficient than a J Frame snubby, if reliability factors into efficiency at all. IMO.

While I am all for a revolver as backup, I just can't see using one as primary. Too few rounds. Too slow to reload (no matter how quick you get you would be even faster if you put as much training time into reloading a semi-auto). The revolver as a primary self defense weapon only holds up if you have one or two attackers at most. Given the increase in gang activity these days, you can't count on that. Figure 3-5 rounds or more per bad guy. The one shot one kill thing is a Hollywood myth. As is hiding behind the counter and taking forever and day on reloads or having enough time to cock the hammer during a firefight. High round count and lightening fast reloads are critical in primary self defense weapon in my mind. Those two features far out way the relatively minor risk of a malfunction. A backup gun and due diligence on practicing you malfunction drills will help decrease the risk, though I agree having a malfunction during a firefight is a terrifying prospect. Heck, being in a firefight at all is terrifying prospect.

speaking for the Glock 17, 21sf, 30 and 23... yes you are correct, sometimes it takes a push to fully chamber if you're using reloads.

Solution = don't use reloads. There are a long list of reasons not to use reloads. The biggest of which is that they are responsible for 99.99% of all KABOOMS. The next biggest is they do not feed as reliably. I could go on and on. How much is your life, your face, or your hands worth? Certainly more than the few cents you save per round over factory new ammo. I know this opinion pisses a lot of people off. However it is firmly reinforced with the blood of my fellow shooters during training courses and even more KABOOM after reports passed on by instructors. It is just not worth it. Maybe, and I stress maybe, if you are ultra skilled then I would find it an acceptable risk to shoot your own reloads. Staking your life on somebody else's reloads is just nuts.

my friend's m&p drops the slide when you insert a loaded magazine. not sure if this is intentional design but I wonder why other pistols don't do this.

I've heard lots of guys say this about lots of different firearms and say it is design feature. Maybe it is, but I doubt it. My personal experience with my Glock is that this will go away over time. What I think is going on is that when it is new it has a thick coated finish that prevents the slide from locking back as securely as it should. Over time, with constant use, that finish wears down and the slide locks in place much better. I've actually seen this cause an ND. The very experienced shooter had a relaxed grip on the firearm. Other than that their grip was perfect and their finger was indeed indexed on the slide. However, when they slammed the magazine home, the slide released unexpectedly the force of which caused the firearm to jump in their hand, the finger to enter the trigger well and pull the trigger. Bear in mind their hand and their finger did not move at all. The only thing moving was the firearm. Scared the heck out of all of us. Thankfully this happened on a shooting range and the firearm was pointed down range in safe direction (at the target). Ironically the hit as in the 10 ring. This is considered an ND because it was the shooters fault for not having a proper grip. He got complacent.

ONE REALLY COOL FEATURE ABOUT GLOCKS THAT I RECENTLY LEARNED.

Those of you who have taken firearms courses know that clearing a double feed is a night mare. Failure fires are easy. Just tap and wrack. Stove pipes are pretty easy too. Tap, wrack and flip. Double feeds require a long and drawn out process that requires lots of fine motor skills you're not likely to have if and when you find yourself in real firefight. Except on the Glocks (and maybe some other firearms as well, I was told it is a Glock but it might not be).

CORRECTED (will try and find a better source that explains it better and possibly more accurately as it is muscle memory now and I am having trouble remembering it with a firearm in my hands to do the actual steps). If I am remembering this correctly all you have to do to clear the double feed is press the magazine release, remove the magazine completely but keep it in your support side hand. With the magazine no longer there, the second round falls free to the ground. The force of the slide chambers the first round 99% of the time but the second round is so low that it gets forced down the magazine well and falls to the ground. Reinsert the magazine, driving it into place firmly. Wrack the slide for good measure just in case both rounds fell out, but most of the time one round was indeed in the chamber.

I cannot tell you how mad I was at all my previous instructors for not teaching me this method. Perhaps the didn't know it themselves. All those countless hours fighting through Complicated Type 3 Malfunction Clearances during their courses and my personal training time could have been avoided with a nice simple two step method. I never did get the complicted way down to the point where it was muscle memory, and I've been working at it for years. I like the simple way much better.

mala in se
09-10-2010, 12:27 PM
my MK9 has never had that issue. i've only shot about 200 rds through it. however, i tried playing w/ a dummy round when i first heard of this issue and if you rack it slowly or follow the slide forward, it does not feed correctly (but really, who racks the slide like that?!).

anyway, i polished the feedramp w/ a dremel and this issue is non existant.

k1dude
09-10-2010, 12:59 PM
Good post tacticalcity.

sholling
09-10-2010, 1:14 PM
The Kahr's do require more break-in time than most of the others. The thing that baffles me is why would someone want to CCW and not have a round in the chamber? In a self defense situation where time is of the essence, having to rack a round into the chamber seems inefficient.
I have to agree. It makes zero sense to carry in condition 2.

tacticalcity
09-10-2010, 2:13 PM
Good post tacticalcity.

Thanks.

Untamed1972
09-10-2010, 2:16 PM
I've recently discovered through watching videos of Kahr pistols that one cannot rack the slide to chamber a round, reliably. The company asks that you lock the slide back, insert a mag in, then hit the slide release. To me, that is a major disadvantage because it make carrying condition 2 (loaded mag inserted, no round in chamber) impractical and malfunction-prone. So my question is does other guns, especially the Glock series, have this problem. I was under the impression that all semi autos should be able to chamber a round with the magazine already inserted. With Glocks, you can even ease the slide slowly to chamber a round correct?

Never had an issue with my G17. When shooting USPSA that's how I load on the line everytime. Remove gun from holster, slide fwd. Insert full mag, and rack slide. Never had it not chamber...not once....every.

tacticalcity
09-10-2010, 2:20 PM
Never had an issue with my G17. When shooting USPSA that's how I load on the line everytime. Remove gun from holster, slide fwd. Insert full mag, and rack slide. Never had it not chamber...not once....every.

Me too. I think they were trying to say it is a Kahr specific issue, and another experienced user of Kahrs said it goes away after the firearm is fully broken in. Who knows? Sounds really odd to me. If it turns out to be true, I wouldn't trust my life to a Kahr for the reasons stated in my above post. But I doubt it is. It just sounds really hard to believe they would design their firearms that way. It is so contrary to doctrine.

nazgulnarsil
09-10-2010, 2:21 PM
uhhh, tactical city that doesn't make any sense about double feeds.
1. you cant just pull the mag and reinsert it because that second round is still caught up in the loading area. it isn't magically going to go back into the magazine.
2.double feeds often occur because of a failure to extract which means the round in the chamber is already fired.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug

tacticalcity
09-10-2010, 2:37 PM
My bad. It's muscle memory now, and without the firearm in my hand I am having trouble remembering how to explain it. Kind of like needing to actually dial a phone number to remember it.

I think it goes like this...but don't quote me.

Remove the magazine completely. With the magazine no longer there, the second round falls free to the ground. The force of the slide chambers the first round 99% of the time but the second round is so low that it gets forced down the magazine well and falls to the ground. Reinsert the magazine. Wrack the slide for good measure just in case both rounds fell out, but most of the time one round was indeed in the chamber.

Compare those steps to the more complicated method and it takes a fraction of the time.

I'll try and hunt down the exact steps from a reliable source just to make sure I am not passing along bad information. However done the proper way, it is much faster and more reliable than the traditional way. Sure wish I had it cemented better in my mind. However, I do it right when the gun is in my hand.

OldLincoln
09-11-2010, 7:54 PM
I have both a Kahr PM9 and Colt LW Commander. Neither will chamber a JHP slowly. I don't see that as a flaw, it just is what it is. The Kahr was designed to be very small. This means the slide action is short and the feed ramp steep. JHP's may want to slow down when hitting the ramp but if hand racked back FULLY and released without ANY follow back they feed very well.

I was taught in my clearance drills to keep the gun pointed at the target, rack with the support hand while thrusting the gun into firing position with the strong, thereby ripping the gun out of the support hand. Do this with the Kahr or the Colt and it should work every time.

jessegpresley
09-12-2010, 4:52 PM
While I am all for a revolver as backup, I just can't see using one as primary. Too few rounds.

I've read the average shots fired by police is less than 4 rounds. The number of rounds fired by police have increased with the adoption of semi-autos. When cops had revolvers less rounds were shot per encounter, which leads me to believe cops are firing more rounds per encounter today because they have more rounds, not necessarily because they need to. On a side note, cops tend to shoot more rounds when shooting at the same time with other officers, and their hit percentage also drops exponentially when more officers are firing.

I have to agree. It makes zero sense to carry in condition 2.

You can't carry a Kahr in Condition 2. Condition 2 is loaded chamber, hammer forward.

9mmepiphany
09-12-2010, 7:07 PM
I've read the average shots fired by police is less than 4 rounds.

I used to plan based on that too, until I almost walked into atake-over robbery with 4 bad guys

ruchik
09-12-2010, 8:19 PM
In my opinion, you should break a gun in with a few hundred rounds anyhow before carrying it. You wouldn't go racing a brand new car without breaking the engine in first and finding out what type of fuel it likes, what kind of oil is best for it, etc right? There aren't very many manufacturers that don't recommend breaking a gun in first anyway. From all the literature I've read concerning Kahrs, it seems like any problems regarding feeding issues goes away after the break in period. Theres a youtube video of aguy talking about the very same topic.

*Edit: I just PPT'd a Kahr K9 from a fellow Calgunner this weekend, with only 400 rounds through it. I found that I could chamber a snap cap even when walking the slide forward.

El Gato
09-12-2010, 8:28 PM
The wife has a PM 9 and a P 45...

from round one...

insert the mag...grasp the slide firmly...and attempt to rip that b*&^h off the frame...gun chambers qed....
still doing it 2 years later...
good guns...the 45 is more accurate than a kimber ucII we have....but way harder to control....

the pm 9 is my wifes daily backup gun...
she carries a spinger xd 45 compact tactical as her primary....:cool:

l8apex
09-12-2010, 8:34 PM
After running 200rds or so with a PM9, no problems to rack the slide and chamber a round. I don't know why one would carry condition 2, unless you are in Israel where it is required. It takes a deliberate trigger pull on the Kahrs to fire one off.

I've seen more operator error malfs, on numerous platforms, from people 'racking' the slide [riding the slide, or half racking it] than using the slide release.

9mmepiphany
09-12-2010, 8:55 PM
I don't know why one would carry condition 2, unless you are in Israel where it is required. It takes a deliberate trigger pull on the Kahrs to fire one off.

I've seen more operator error malfs, on numerous platforms, from people 'racking' the slide [riding the slide, or half racking it] than using the slide release.

a couple of minor points of correction

condition 2 is round chambered and hammer down...condition 3 is chamber empty and mag in the gun

Israel doesn't require that pistols be carried in condition 3. If you are referring to the Israeli draw, that was developed during a time when their defense forces were armed with an assortment of pistols from different sources. for a uniform manual of arms, they had their personel chamber a round on the draw. the need for this ended when they issued a standardized sidearm.

people not knowing how to correctly rack a slide is a training issue. the overhand rack works universally across multiple platforms

stormvet
09-12-2010, 9:31 PM
If you dont have a round in the chamber, why carry the gun at all.

If you dont trust your gun, gear or weapon skills to carry your gun with a round in the chamber. Dont carry untill you get the training/gear you need.

l8apex
09-12-2010, 10:20 PM
a couple of minor points of correction

condition 2 is round chambered and hammer down...condition 3 is chamber empty and mag in the gun

people not knowing how to correctly rack a slide is a training issue. the overhand rack works universally across multiple platforms

You are right on the condition 3 point, merely mirroring the OPs problem - see first post.

There is good logic on using the rack slide across numerous platforms, but I have yet to see a person cause a malfunction with the slide release that they wouldn't have cause with racking the slide. Can't say the same for the reverse.

In addition, some platforms may engage the safety i.e. Beretta 92FS if racked incorrectly. It took one SHFT moment in the sandbox for a team member to switch to slide release after engaging his safety after employing the rack the slide method.

YMMV, but I've seen this overhand racking the slide sling some crap at the worst possible time.

bsg
09-12-2010, 10:40 PM
good thread.

UserM4
09-13-2010, 12:15 AM
Who carries their gun that some courses suggest that you slam the slide home after a rack. without a round in the chamber? Plus, riding the slide and weak chambering is a problem that can happen with almost any semi auto. That's why instructors suggest that you slam the slide home after after a rack.

ty423
09-13-2010, 12:52 AM
I have a Kahr P40 and during the recommended break-in I did experience some FTE and FTF but afterwards never had a problem. When it was new I had a VERY hard time releasing the slide stop to drop the slide. However I was trying to do this with an empty mag inserted. The mag spring was so strong that it was holding the slide stop pretty firmly. Now I know if I drop the mag OR have the mag loaded the slide stop releases normally.

The trigger pull is very smooth but the reset is doing another standard long pull.

Twinsen
09-13-2010, 4:14 AM
Well, you're not supposed to follow the slide back in any semiauto.

I don't get this thread. :confused:

Never ease the action forward on any gun, unless you have a manual action that you plan on easing forward every single round, forever. If you ease the action forward in a gun, you seat the bullet differently and your first round in the magazine will always be a flyer. You also risk firing with the gun out of battery.

A clean new gun that doesn't like the action being eased forward just has a nice chamber and will outshoot guns that can be "eased".

Where did people learn these things? I'm gonna go buy a new Z06 and complain that the car doesn't go 205 when I slam on the gas in neutral.

ruchik
09-13-2010, 6:25 AM
I have a Kahr P40 and during the recommended break-in I did experience some FTE and FTF but afterwards never had a problem. When it was new I had a VERY hard time releasing the slide stop to drop the slide. However I was trying to do this with an empty mag inserted. The mag spring was so strong that it was holding the slide stop pretty firmly. Now I know if I drop the mag OR have the mag loaded the slide stop releases normally.

The trigger pull is very smooth but the reset is doing another standard long pull.


It's a design feature. The slide lock is deliberately designed to be really hard to drop on an empty mag. It's there to tell you that you have an empty mag in your gun.

gschoelles
09-13-2010, 7:00 AM
[QUOTE=
The Kahr is:
1. just as reliable for the first shot, with a nicer trigger stroke out of the box than any stock J-frame I've tried. the trigger on my CW9 rivals a stock K-frame.
2. is engineered to feed reliably through the whole mag...the offset feedramp was very innovative. the clearance drill is more complicated than another pull of the trigger...it does require the TRB
3. much thinner
4. has a 65% increase in available ammunition[/QUOTE]

+1 CW9 here worked well even during combat training

9mmepiphany
09-13-2010, 11:59 AM
There is good logic on using the rack slide across numerous platforms, but I have yet to see a person cause a malfunction with the slide release that they wouldn't have cause with racking the slide. Can't say the same for the reverse.

In addition, some platforms may engage the safety i.e. Beretta 92FS if racked incorrectly. It took one SHFT moment in the sandbox for a team member to switch to slide release after engaging his safety after employing the rack the slide method.

YMMV, but I've seen this overhand racking the slide sling some crap at the worst possible time.

The Beretta is an outstanding exception to the rule, we always teach the use of the slide stop for releasing the slide on this platform.

While I have seen folks fumble the overhand rack...hence time spent teaching it correctly...releasing with the slidestop isn't without it's pitfalls.
1. Watching someone hunt for the slide stop on a Sig or H&K P7 can be very enlightening...not that we teach the overhand release with the P7.
2. The other instance that comes to mine is when the slide is closed on an empty chamber...either through missing the slide stop or having released it...pressing the slide stop on a closed slide is pretty futile too

When using a dedicated gun, you can limit your manual of arms, but it is a good thing to have additional tools in the box

Moto4Fun
09-13-2010, 5:47 PM
The problem is the OP's interpretation of the kahr manual. From his post it appears that he thinks when Kahr says you should do it this way, they mean doing it any other way will be unreliable, and the gun will malfunction if you do.

As someone who writes Operator's Manuals and Service Manuals; I know that manufacturers have to write to the "Lowest common denominator". In other words manuals (that come with original equipment) contain the simplest procedures that are guaranteed to work for everyone.

My interpretation of Kahr's Manual would be: we are not responsible for malfunctions resulting from your own technique because we can't control how effectively you perform it.

tonelar
09-13-2010, 9:06 PM
+1 for deliberately

This has to be fud or a worn out guide rod spring.

Where's the link of the company mentioning this problem?

It's in the owner's manual. Why carry a last ditch effort pistol in condition 3? When I carry my PM9 it has a round in the chamber.

J&B
09-19-2010, 10:50 PM
That's condition 3, bro.

Keep 1 in the chamber or stay home.

Yeah I have a K9 elite03 no problems ever chambering a round at the range with my son shooting but always carry +1 or dont carry at all. I recommend taking a handgun tactical course if you are not comfortable carrying a loaded handgun.

M1A Rifleman
09-20-2010, 8:57 AM
We have no problems with chambering a round with a Kahr. It has only appeared to be finicky with reloads and bullet seating.

winnre
09-20-2010, 10:20 AM
My PM45 was like that out of the box but after 150 rounds it is doing better. I was told it needs to eat 250 rounds before being broken in.