PDA

View Full Version : I just cannot comprehend this


CalNRA
05-15-2006, 2:56 AM
We live in a global economy, great.

We buy products from Asia all the time, it's a fact of life, I don't like it and try to not to so whenever I can.

a lot of us are of Asian descent, as myself, great. Fantastic considering the exclusionary acts both the United States and the State of California had in the past.

But buying guns from companies like Norinco? Are American guns so expensive that we have to buy guns from a commie country that doesn't allow its citizens to keep and bear arms?

I'm not questioning the quality of stuff coming from there, since they are very good at reverse engineering and have very cheap and motivated labor force to work with.

I get into arguements with people all the time when they try to tell me how great their Norinco 1911 is. I don't care how good it is. There are things in life that are jus matters of principles and a lot of us seem to forget that.

Are American-made guns expensive? not always. The most aforadble and fun to shoot guns I have are American made(Marlin semis, Ruger 22/45, Mossberg 500, Winchester 70) and my 1911s were made in Brazil and finished in Ilinois.

Yeah the M1as and the high end 1911s are expensive. But I want to buy guns from places where people are free to buy guns.(that's why I refuse to buy German or Austrian guns). Call it global comoradery if you will.

But buying guns from an oppressive commie state just because they can sell it a few bucks cheaper? Would you buy a Norinco AR lower for 70 bucks if they started to export it?

I thought Americans had more back bones than this.

For people like me who care a great deal about the great land we call home, the firearms are almost like the final frontier of globalization. Companies are outsourcing whatever they can to other countries in pursuit of profit. The last stand is what we, as freedom loving Americans, buy to defend our freedoms. Buying Norinco is giving power to those who hate our freedom and want to do whaever they can to keep their people from wanting to be like us.

Rant over. Back to your regularly programmed AR building...

paradox
05-15-2006, 5:18 AM
It's called morals, glad you have them.

My aunt is currently having her siding replaced, windows replaced and a new paint job on her house. Friends and relatives all told her they "knew someone" who could do it real cheap (read illegal labor). Instead she chose to pay more so that those doing the job would be citizens who got paid enough to raise a family in California.

It is a sad soul who chooses greed over morality.

mow
05-15-2006, 6:36 AM
I have a Pinto I would like to sell ya :D

CalNRA
05-15-2006, 6:50 AM
I have a Pinto I would like to sell ya :D

Now imagine a Mexican made Pinto... ouch...:D

mow
05-15-2006, 7:06 AM
Now imagine a Mexican made Pinto... ouch...:D

The thing is I don't have to imagine an American made one they are for real ... so you want it?:D

CSkyhawk72
05-15-2006, 7:19 AM
CalNRA, God bless your heart... you are a true American!!!

MrTuffPaws
05-15-2006, 7:26 AM
But buying guns from companies like Norinco? Are American guns so expensive that we have to buy guns from a commie country that doesn't allow its citizens to keep and bear arms?

With that thinking, you better not be buying any guns made is Europe as well.

MadMex
05-15-2006, 7:28 AM
Now imagine a Mexican made Pinto... ouch...:D
If the Pinto was still in production, it might have been a candidate for assembly in Hermosillo.

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_display.cfm?release=17799

This type of production:
a) provides an incentive for illegals to stay home,
b) is a shame because it takes jobs away from the US,
c) is a legitimate symptom of how difficult it is for US corporations to compete globally
d) is a symptom of US corporate greed,
e) is to be applauded as US corporations fulfill their obligation to share holders,
f) All of the above
g) Some of the above
h) None of the above

vonsmith
05-15-2006, 8:16 AM
Like a wise man once said, "Why don't you get yourself a good American car, like a Toyota or Nissan?". What does "made in America" mean anymore? A lot of American products are made in, or contain parts made in China. Sometimes it is impossible even to find an American brand of a particular product. Sometimes I buy what looks like an inferior cheaply made product from China just because that's all that the stores are stocking. I can't remember the last time I bought a shirt that wasn't made in Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico, Philippines or somewhere other than the good old US.

I tried Ford, Dodge, Toyota and Nissan. My Ford was okay, but needed a lot of regular maintenance and my Dodge downright sucked. My wife and I have owned 4 Toyotas. Never had any major problems. Her first Toyota she kept for 14 years and still got $600 for it. She only paid $2100 new back in 1969. Her current Toyota is 22 years old, never been garaged and is starting to look pretty sad, but it still runs everyday. My Toyotas ran fine right up to the time I sold them. I went with Nissan this time 'cause I liked the features.

Given an equal, or nearly equal choice, I'll buy American. However the global economy is here and I'm not blind to it.


=vonsmith=

double_action
05-15-2006, 8:27 AM
Yes, I buy American when ever I can.

However, in terms of Norinco and Polytech, they are no longer imported, try and find a new one. When you buy a used Norinco or Polytech you're not buying from Norinco or Polytech.

I recently bought a Polytech M14s off Gunbroker and an American got my money for it. They are great receivers, and an American is getting my money to convert it to use a USGI bolt (among other mods).

I really don't have a problem with that.

glen avon
05-15-2006, 8:45 AM
why did polytech and norinco provide a forged receiver, and not springfield?

why did norinco provide a forged frame 1911 that was really close to the WWII 1911, and not Colt's? Springfield, Rock Island, Armscorp all have them, but they are made where?

why did norinco come out with an 1897 shotgun for the SASS boys, and not Winchester?

we but their products because they build what we want, and they do it cheap.

Mesa Tactical
05-15-2006, 9:27 AM
But buying guns from companies like Norinco? Are American guns so expensive that we have to buy guns from a commie country that doesn't allow its citizens to keep and bear arms?

Hmm, interesting point.

So much for Glocks, H&Ks, Rossis, Tauruses, FNs, Berettas, etc.

Satex
05-15-2006, 9:27 AM
It’s not morals, it’s principles. Morals are about social rights and wrongs. Principles are about personal beliefs.
“Thy shall not kill” falls under western morals.
“I will only drive a U.S. made vehicle” is a personal principle – which may be shared by others…

It's called morals, glad you have them.

bwiese
05-15-2006, 9:33 AM
The perceived benefits of some Norinco products are not worth the totality of their extended costs (helping fund an aggressive enemy, since Norinco is tied to their war industries). There are alternatives.

I try to live my life without Red Chinese products, regardless of mfgr. Can't always do it, can't always even know if something is or contains PRC content. But one keeps fighting. I can't necessarily get US made all the time, but I can avoid PRC products with a little effort.

For example, I'll never buy another pair of Durango boots! I like 'em for slop around boots as they're waterproof and comfortable and if they get muddy they're not ruined - or I haven't lost too much if they do get mangled. I was too dumb to check for locale of manufacture as I never conceived of China making cowboy boots. When I was in Sheplers' in Reno, NV this weekend, half of their mid-price boots are made in China now (incl the new biggie, Ariat). Frankly I'd much rather buy boots made in Mexico - biz we send there may (slightly!) help alleviate border pressures (but China undercuts Mexico pricing, though not necessarily quality for items like this). So Tony Lama, Justin, Lucchese, here I come. I guess I'll just pay more and not walk thru puddles.

It's admittedly hard to buy US-mfgd 'dressy casual' clothing anymore. Most of my Polo-brand and Nordie's house brand stuff comes from Bangladesh or Honduras. These guys do understand whate size "XXL" is and things fit. By contrast , a PRC shirt that was marked '3XL' would barely fit me. Needless to say, I can avoid these easily.

Don't think there's any PRC stuff on my 2004 F150 truck. Prob lotsa stuff from Mexico though (or US parts assembled w/mexican labor).

I really don't buy a lot of consumery-WalMartish products - have had all my dinner plates, glasses, forks, etc. for ages. My sofa set is an Ashley made in USA though the fabric comes from Taiwan. My home's floor tiles come from Spain. I paid 25% extra for US-mfgd faucets & fixtures (Moen and Kohler IIRC) for my bathroom upgrade and will continue that for other bathroom and kitchen upgrades.

When I buy electronics I generally go toward a bit higher end. My Philips 47" projection TV is assembled in USA with its semiconductor content built on US, European and Taiwan fabs. There could be a nut or bolt or resistor or two from PRC. My Sony CD/SACD/DVD home theatre player is toward the higher end and was not from PRC and has Japanese chip set in it. Even the power supply is Japanese.

I have great control over PC-related stuff since I build/upgrade my own desktop PC. My next upgrade will use a US-mfg server board, with an Intel CPU and chip set (non-Chinese fabs); current system uses a Taiwan board and US+ Taiwan chips.

I need a new laptop but I will be damned if I will buy a Lenovo Chinese ThinkPad. I do like them though but I will look at some of the Japanese brands (and check where assembled and overall parts content, if possible).

SC_00_05
05-15-2006, 9:44 AM
Are American guns so expensive that we have to buy guns from a commie country that doesn't allow its citizens to keep and bear arms?

Yeah the M1as and the high end 1911s are expensive.

For people like me who care a great deal about the great land we call home, the firearms are almost like the final frontier of globalization. Companies are outsourcing whatever they can to other countries in pursuit of profit. The last stand is what we, as freedom loving Americans, buy to defend our freedoms. Buying Norinco is giving power to those who hate our freedom and want to do whaever they can to keep their people from wanting to be like us.

Rant over. Back to your regularly programmed AR building...
You sound like a great person and someone that America could use more of but I've got to mention a few things. "A commie country that doesn't allow its citizens to keep and bear arms", that sounds like California! We don't have many manufacturers here (all those cheap pistol outfits seem to be gone) but you may not want to buy from Surefire, Knoxx, and some others if you want to stick to this policy.

The problem with high end M1As, or at least SA M1As, is that their $1500 gun is notorious for having problems while Polys (with replaced bolt) is good to go for almost half that. This money isn't going to China, it's going to an American.

Lastly, "outsourcing for profits" sounds like some big bad terrible thing but it's not. It is just necessary. American companies need to compete with foreign firms that have inheirently cheaper labor. The profits that these companies make (in the case of public companies) does not go into some big bin that all the execs share. It goes to us, regular Americans, in the form of dividends or stock price increases. Anybody that has a diversified 401 owns a share of many, many comapnies.

Stanze
05-15-2006, 9:48 AM
Russian and Yugo SKS rifles are commie weapons also. You don't see people making as big a stink about it if the commies are white.:D

I alway's wondered if that's why we nuked Japan instead of Germany.:eek: Well, there were no German-American relocation camps that I'm aware of.:rolleyes:

BTW, I'm not trying to dig at the original poster(I read that he's Asian) in case he replies with, "Stanze, I'm Asian.". I'm just observing.

PanzerAce
05-15-2006, 10:12 AM
Russian and Yugo SKS rifles are commie weapons also. You don't see people making as big a stink about it if the commies are white.:D

I alway's wondered if that's why we nuked Japan instead of Germany.:eek: Well, there were no German-American relocation camps that I'm aware of.:rolleyes:

BTW, I'm not trying to dig at the original poster(I read that he's Asian) in case he replies with, "Stanze, I'm Asian.". I'm just observing.

Or maybe it was because the war in europe was over already?

Stanze
05-15-2006, 10:13 AM
Or maybe it was because the war in europe was over already?

Yeah, that'd be good reason.:p Good thing for the Germans.;)

glen avon
05-15-2006, 10:53 AM
I alway's wondered if that's why we nuked Japan instead of Germany.:eek: Well, there were no German-American relocation camps that I'm aware of.:rolleyes:


But there were: http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north71.html

Stanze
05-15-2006, 11:11 AM
But there were: http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north71.html

Thanks, I'm now aware of them.:)

CalNRA
05-15-2006, 11:37 AM
Glocks, H&Ks, Rossis, Tauruses, FNs, Berettas,


With that thinking, you better not be buying any guns made is Europe as well.

Hence why I say I don't buy guns from Germany or Austria.

Taurus is made in Brazil last I heard and they are decent as far as gun-ownership is concerned. I mean they did vote out an initiative that was designed to eliminate private gun ownership this past year.

My Beretta was made in Maryland. I guess I cheated a little:(

You don't see people making as big a stink about it if the commies are white.

I don't ever plan to buy a AK or SKS. I'll save my money for an M1A... And as far as I remember people did make a big fuss about white commies, remember the whole McCarthy thing? I guess the hatred for the white commies stopped when the USSR kinda fell apart and the stopped being a threat. But Commie CHina is still there and breathing down our necks heavier than ever...



I alway's wondered if that's why we nuked Japan instead of Germany.

have you seen what happened to Berlin and Dresden after te carpet bombing? those squareheads didn't have it easy. Then their women were systematically raped by the RUssians when all the men died in the war. I think a Nuke would have been a deal breaker...

Well, there were no German-American relocation camps that I'm aware of.

it's quite hard to put ethnic Germans into camps when your Allied Commander is named Eisenhower.... THe Germans did have to stop speaking GErman to their kids in fear of mob resprisal. My granddad was from Youngtown Ohio, and the Germans there started speaking ENglish real fast after the war started, exept the old ones. Before the war the Germans, Poles, Greeks and other Ethic Europeans were reluctant to drop their language. Kinda like the spanish problem we have today....

knight_dive
05-15-2006, 12:41 PM
As the son of a man who founded and ran his own U.S. manufacturing company for 30 years, I hope I have at least as much reason as anyone else to think "US made GOOD, Foreign made BAD". But one of the things my Father taught me as he struggled to keep up with incredibly low chinese import costs and customers who would send his products overseas before he could really even get production set up, is that the consumer is best served by "the best product at the best price." While it pained him to lose business to foreign manufacturing he believed that the market was divided between those who only care about getting the cheapest product, those who want the highest quality product and those who look for some compromise between the two. The bad news is that the governments of the United States and the PRK have gone to great lengths to make life impossible for domestic manufacturers regardless of other costs or quality of product, but I try not to hold place of manufacture against a product, instead I look for the best quality product I can afford at the best price I can find, which I'm sad to say isn't always a great product.
That said, I'm as happy to own my Sig and my XD as I am to own my Kimber and my Winchester. If Poly makes a better receiver than Springfield for a lot less money, then the burden is on springfield to make their products more desireable to the consumer. Personally I probably will buy a Springfield when I get the chance because I'd rather have new than unknown/possibly abused. I avoid Wally World products, but mainly because they are typically junk and for political reasons. I know there was a thread posted to this effect earlier, but since I don't have time to find it now, the clerk at the Glendora Wal-mart ammo counter confirmed that all California stores will be phasing out all shooting/hunting products, so then I'll have no reason whatsoever to go there.

vonsmith
05-15-2006, 1:01 PM
I avoid Wally World products, but mainly because they are typically junk and for political reasons. I know there was a thread posted to this effect earlier, but since I don't have time to find it now, the clerk at the Glendora Wal-mart ammo counter confirmed that all California stores will be phasing out all shooting/hunting products, so then I'll have no reason whatsoever to go there.

I hadn't heard this before. I most often buy my ammo at Wal-mart even though the clerks there generally haven't a clue what I'm buying. There are a few other name brand commodities I buy there, otherwise a lot of their stock is junk.

Can someone confirm that Wal-mart is getting out of the ammo distribution business? :confused:


=vonsmith=

DELTA
05-15-2006, 2:43 PM
Hence why I say I don't buy guns from Germany or Austria.

Taurus is made in Brazil last I heard and they are decent as far as gun-ownership is concerned. I mean they did vote out an initiative that was designed to eliminate private gun ownership this past year.


Taurus also manufactures a built-in lock for their guns, facilitating the way for what the NRA settled for last year in the manufacturers protection act. Basically, they are paving the way for a future law that mandates all guns to be under lock at all times.

Very anti self-defense measures.

SO I WILL NEVER BUY A TAURUS.

knight_dive
05-15-2006, 5:18 PM
Can someone confirm that Wal-mart is getting out of the ammo distribution business? :confused:
=vonsmith=

PM sent about previous thread

Mesa Tactical
05-16-2006, 7:28 AM
But there were: http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north71.html

Dude, those were POW CAMPS, not internement camps for Americans of German origin.

As for importing, Knight-Dive has it right: the best product at the best price.

As regards politics, if you really cared about Chinese politics, you'd buy more Chinese crap, not less. The more exporting the Chinese do, the richer they get and the bigger their middle class; and when the middle class gets big enough democracy spontaneously emerges WITHOUT a foreign invasion. This happens consistently, cf: Taiwan, South Korea, Thailand, etc, all of which were once military dictatorships.

Personally, however, I try to avoid Chinese products. I have nothing against the Chinese (aside from their shrill anti-American rhetoric, but having to endure the opinions of others is one of the prices of freedom, theirs and mine), but the problem is that American (and Japanese, European, etc) manufacturers don't go to China to get things made better, they go there to get them made cheaply. And as China is the most competitive manufacturing market on earth, (not because of "slave labor") things can be made very cheaply indeed. But the priority for the Chinese-made product is almost always cost over quality. It's not the Chinese's fault; they are perfectly capable of making high-quality stuff; but hardly anyone ever asks them to do so.

Professionally, we have been urged from various quarters to off-shore our manufacturing. Some of our competitors already do. But we won't. Frankly, it's a simple business decision: as long as I can find high-end buyers willing to pay more for my US-made products, I'd prefer to avoid the hassles of sourcing our stuff from Asia. Simple as that. And it's a decision that will ensure we will always remain relatively small, as Americans are simply addicted to cheap stuff (cheap gasoline most of all). We will only ever be able to sell to that small percentage of customers who can and will afford to pay more. As long as there are enough of them left, we will keep making stuff here in Costa Mesa and Santa Ana (with Mexican labor, of course!).

BTW, my car was imported from ... wait for it ... Australia!

BTW II: what does all this have to do with "Gun rights?"

glen avon
05-16-2006, 8:37 AM
Dude, those were POW CAMPS, not internement camps for Americans of German origin.

D'oh!

version 2.0: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1153885

CalNRA
05-16-2006, 10:59 AM
BTW II: what does all this have to do with "Gun rights?"

because the heading of this forum says:

"Discuss gun rights and gun related legal and political topics here"

paradox
05-16-2006, 11:47 AM
BTW, my car was imported from ... wait for it ... Australia!


You drive a Goat?

gh429
05-16-2006, 12:12 PM
Those of you advocating not purchasing Chinese products due to "moral" reasons demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding of basic economic principles and an understanding of the Chinese economy.

The global reality is that if we (as a country) do not exploit the comparative advantages working with China, someone else will. Already we are losing ground in critical areas due to political reasons. In simpler terms it is MUTUALLY beneficial for US investors to be involved in China. Everyone becomes wealtheir in this process. China is not a question of "if" it is simply a question of "when". And "when" pretty much is now. The smart play in order to maintain the economic dominance of the US is not to sit on the side-lines, but to be actively involved in bringing wealth to both countries.

glen avon
05-16-2006, 12:22 PM
and what are the advantages of the chinese traded deficiet??

Mesa Tactical
05-16-2006, 12:32 PM
You drive a Goat?

http://www.mesatactical.com/images/mesa_tactical_gto.jpg

saki302
05-16-2006, 1:08 PM
Yeah! LS1!! :D :D

-Dave

gh429
05-16-2006, 1:29 PM
and what are the advantages of the chinese traded deficiet??

Since China has been determined to be NOT a currency manipulator and assuming the RMB is continued to be allowed to float, what are the DISadvantages of a chinese trade deficit?