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titus7
09-08-2010, 10:19 AM
Hey guys thought I'd post it up here for anyone to read.

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B0qyloA48O3XZWFjYjMwYTMtYTg1MC00NzVhL WI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx&hl=en

Bobula
09-08-2010, 10:31 AM
ATF isn't the problem, it's CA DOJ BOF

killshot44
09-08-2010, 10:34 AM
The ATF it's isn't the problem, it's the CA DOJ BOF

Fixed for you...

Bobula
09-08-2010, 10:36 AM
Fixed for you...

whoops... I need sleep

munkeeboi
09-08-2010, 10:42 AM
Yup...CA DOJ is the problem. There are state laws that are more restrictive than what the ATF allows.

Interesting on what they had to say about the angled fore grip, though

wash
09-08-2010, 10:45 AM
Hey guys thought I'd post it up here for anyone to read.

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B0qyloA48O3XZWFjYjMwYTMtYTg1MC00NzVhL WI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx&hl=en
I would suggest that you add "with Magpul AFS" to the title since you can't see that detail without opening the document.

By the way, for those who haven't opened it, at the very end of the letter, the ATF OK'd AR pistols with Magpul AFG (angled forward grip).

Gio
09-08-2010, 10:52 AM
Cool, thanks for sharing :D

maddoggie13
09-08-2010, 10:54 AM
For DOJ you need make it single shot...

frigginchi
09-08-2010, 10:55 AM
So does it mean I don't need to buy a pistol lower to make a pistol as long as it was never assembled into a rifle?

Fate
09-08-2010, 11:03 AM
I would suggest that you add "with Magpul AFS" to the title since you can't see that detail without opening the document.

By the way, for those who haven't opened it, at the very end of the letter, the ATF OK'd AR pistols with Magpul AFG (angled forward grip).

That's great if you live in Free America. CA has its own nonsense to deal with regarding forward pistol grips.

Fate
09-08-2010, 11:03 AM
So does it mean I don't need to buy a pistol lower to make a pistol as long as it was never assembled into a rifle?

In Free America, yes. In CA, due to the fact that we have the Roster, no.

ar15barrels
09-08-2010, 11:05 AM
By the way, for those who haven't opened it, at the very end of the letter, the ATF OK'd AR pistols with Magpul AFG (angled forward grip).

ATF letters only apply to the original recipient.
If you want your own letter to protect you, you have to write to them with the question to get your own response letter.

winnre
09-08-2010, 11:06 AM
ATF letters only apply to the original recipient.
If you want your own letter to protect you, you have to write to them with the question to get your own response letter.

It will protect you even in a court of law?

wash
09-08-2010, 11:09 AM
So does it mean I don't need to buy a pistol lower to make a pistol as long as it was never assembled into a rifle?
That's not a easy to answer question.

The California DROS system only allows handgun and rifle/shotgun, not other which is how a stripped lower should be recognized.

It is unclear if you could be prosecuted for building a pistol from a receiver that was transferred as a rifle.

I suggest that you buy complete or do like I did and make a completely un-papered pistol lower from an 80% paperweight.

winnre
09-08-2010, 11:15 AM
If you buy a lower from a dealer can you say you intend to make a pistol out of it and then they can do the DROS as a pistol? Or does it have to go to the dealer from the mfr as a pistol?

Nathan Krynn
09-08-2010, 11:18 AM
So does it mean I don't need to buy a pistol lower to make a pistol as long as it was never assembled into a rifle?

You are correct. As long as the lower has never been built as a rifle it can be made into a "pistol".

A "pistol' can be made into a rifle but then can never go back into a pistol after being a pistol, refer to first sentence.

If you look at any of your hand guns none of them has the word pistol on them. E.G. Colt 1911, Glock, M-9, S&W, and so on.

A lot of people want it so we do make them with pistol engraved on them. I actually have some "multi cal pistol" maked lowers in stock.

Now I do not have all the CA laws memorized and am saying this regarding to the BATFE rules for the nation not specifically CA and I am not a lawyer. This is my understands of the laws.

munkeeboi
09-08-2010, 11:19 AM
CA dealer won't/can't dros as a pistol because it isn't on the roster of safe guns nor does it qualify as a single shot pistol

CSACANNONEER
09-08-2010, 11:32 AM
That's not a easy to answer question.

The California DROS system only allows handgun and rifle/shotgun, not other which is how a stripped lower should be recognized.

It is unclear if you could be prosecuted for building a pistol from a receiver that was transferred as a rifle.

I suggest that you buy complete or do like I did and make a completely un-papered pistol lower from an 80% paperweight.

If a lower is DROSed as a long gun in Ca but not built up, you can legally take it out of state, make a pistol out of it and bring it back. This appears to be perfectly legal on a federal level and, I can't find anything illegal about removing a firearm from the state and then bringing it back. The State may not like it but, that's their problem.

ar15barrels
09-08-2010, 11:55 AM
It will protect you even in a court of law?

No, but it will show that you made the effort to be as informed as you can and even have proof of such effort.

winnre
09-08-2010, 12:06 PM
I tried to register my MAC-11/9 back in the days of assault rifle registration and I got a letter back saying it is not on the list, but it was. I doubt that letter does any good.

titus7
09-08-2010, 12:17 PM
I am no legal expert and am in no way offering legal advice, I just thought that it was interesting and informative so thought I would post it up.

ScorpioVI
09-08-2010, 1:06 PM
Thanks Titus!

rero360
09-08-2010, 1:14 PM
Very interesting, now send the exact same letter to CADOJ and see what they have to say on the matter.

ar15barrels
09-08-2010, 1:15 PM
I tried to register my MAC-11/9 back in the days of assault rifle registration and I got a letter back saying it is not on the list, but it was. I doubt that letter does any good.

Just carry a copy of that letter.
If anyone ever question's it's status as an AW, that's your get-out-of-jail card.

Fate
09-08-2010, 4:00 PM
If a lower is DROSed as a long gun in Ca but not built up, you can legally take it out of state, make a pistol out of it and bring it back. This appears to be perfectly legal on a federal level and, I can't find anything illegal about removing a firearm from the state and then bringing it back. The State may not like it but, that's their problem.
Sounds good...in theory. The $24 million question is will the CA DOJ accept your registration paperwork when you try to send in the form.

DRM6000
09-08-2010, 4:30 PM
Sounds good...in theory. The $24 million question is will the CA DOJ accept your registration paperwork when you try to send in the form.

I think it sounds good in theory also. I hope the members with more knowledge in the laws can opine on this.

I don't understand why it would need to be registered. The person wouldn't be importing it since he left with the firearm and returned with it, albeit modified.

1911su16b870
09-08-2010, 4:42 PM
AFAIK this is the first mention of OK to use a Magpul AFG on a AR pistol!

ar15barrels
09-08-2010, 5:06 PM
I don't understand why it would need to be registered. The person wouldn't be importing it since he left with the firearm and returned with it, albeit modified.

Handguns have to be registered.
When he first bought it, it was considered a long gun by the state.
There's no registration on long guns.

When he returned, it was a handgun.
He left with 0 handguns and returned with more than 0 handguns.
Hence he would need to register them.

Of course this causes a federal problem because the feds say you can never convert a long gun into a handgun.
I wonder if there is a state law against converting a long gun into a handgun.

In reality, since there's no serial number record of the long gun receiver when first purchased, the voluntary registration would probably go through fine.
At least the first few will.
Once they catch on about what's going on, they will figure out a way to start denying them...

DRM6000
09-08-2010, 5:29 PM
I thought handgun registration was required when a person moved into the state. Looks like it has nothing to do with residency, rather just the act of bringing a handgun into the state requires registration.

Handguns have to be registered.
When he first bought it, it was considered a long gun by the state.
There's no registration on long guns.

When he returned, it was a handgun.
He left with 0 handguns and returned with more than 0 handguns.
Hence he would need to register them.

Of course this causes a federal problem because the feds say you can never convert a long gun into a handgun.
I wonder if there is a state law against converting a long gun into a handgun.

In reality, since there's no serial number record of the long gun receiver when first purchased, the voluntary registration would probably go through fine.
At least the first few will.
Once they catch on about what's going on, they will figure out a way to start denying them...

vta
09-08-2010, 5:58 PM
AFAIK this is the first mention of OK to use a Magpul AFG on a AR pistol!

now we need a letter from CA DOJ saying that AFG is ok on a featureless rifle.

If a lower is DROSed as a long gun in Ca but not built up, you can legally take it out of state, make a pistol out of it and bring it back. This appears to be perfectly legal on a federal level and, I can't find anything illegal about removing a firearm from the state and then bringing it back. The State may not like it but, that's their problem.

has anyone been brave enough to try this? is it just a mere act of taking this to Arizona and buy a pistol upper to build with my LPK, pistol buffer tube before i come back? if that is the case, i am planning a road trip!

CSACANNONEER
09-08-2010, 6:01 PM
Sounds good...in theory. The $24 million question is will the CA DOJ accept your registration paperwork when you try to send in the form.
Why send them a form?
I thought handgun registration was required when a person moved into the state. Looks like it has nothing to do with residency, rather just the act of bringing a handgun into the state requires registration.

This is how I see it. California requires registration when one moves into the state. I'm already a resident. I am not importing a gun from out of state or purchasing a new gun. I left the state with a gun, I returned with the same gun. The feds say that it is not a rifle until you mount a +16" barrel on it. They have never stated that there is an exception for receivers DROSed as long guns. AFAIK, California does not have a law stating that it is illegal to convert a longgun into a handgun. They've always just relied on federal law. Even though it is originally DROSed as a long gun, California can not argue that it's a SBR since, it was never cinfigured as a "shoulder fired weapon". So, what's the flaw in my logic? Or, would this be a legal way to get evil, black, "unregister" and off roster handguns into California?

DRM6000
09-08-2010, 6:05 PM
This is how I see it. California requires registration when one moves into the state. I'm already a resident. I am not importing a gun from out of state or purchasing a new gun. I left the state with a gun, I returned with the same gun. The feds say that it is not a rifle until you mount a +16" barrel on it. They have never stated that there is an exception for receivers DROSed as long guns. AFAIK, California does not have a law stating that it is illegal to convert a longgun into a handgun. They've always just relied on federal law. Even though it is originally DROSed as a long gun, California can not argue that it's a SBR since, it was never cinfigured as a "shoulder fired weapon". So, what's the flaw in my logic? Or, would this be a legal way to get evil, black, "unregister" and off roster handguns into California?

i haven't DROS'ed a lower in a while, but isn't a stripped lower categorized as "other" and not as a long gun on the 4473? if so, it was never a long gun to begin with as far as CA knows.

We The People Firearms
09-08-2010, 7:38 PM
You cannot buy a lower and register it by itself as a pistol. The weapon must be sold as a complete gun, in pistol config, mag block in, and then the comsumer may remove it ONLY after leaving the store and can them place a 10 rd. magazine in it.

We The People Firearms
09-08-2010, 7:39 PM
No, it is a long gun on the 4473 and on the Ca. DROS system.

ke6guj
09-08-2010, 7:44 PM
No, it is a long gun on the 4473 and on the Ca. DROS system.

AFAIK, it should be 4473'd as an "other" and DROSed as a "long gun". to mark it as long gun on the 4473 would by against the law. The reason they can't sell a stripped lower to someone <21 is because it isn't a long gun. So, why would they mark it as a long gun on the form that says that it isn't a long guns?

MrPlink
09-08-2010, 8:54 PM
Let's just over turn all these stupid californa laws and not even have this conversation!

Interesting stuff though and I'm paying very close attention. Myself and a few friends are planning on buying some 80% lowers soon to build into pistols.

thedrickel
09-08-2010, 9:53 PM
Sounds good...in theory. The $24 million question is will the CA DOJ accept your registration paperwork when you try to send in the form.

Yes. They will accept the registration on almost anything. As long as you can help them wade thru their own bureaucratic BS ;)

G-forceJunkie
09-08-2010, 9:53 PM
I found your flaw...your trying to use logic with the CA DOJ BOF :) But as long as CA does not have a rifle -> pistol law...So, what's the flaw in my logic?

thedrickel
09-08-2010, 10:01 PM
My humble opinion is that the receiver's DROS status doesn't alter the receiver's legal status as just a receiver. The DROS doesn't magically add a stock and 16" bbl.

ar15barrels
09-08-2010, 11:14 PM
This is how I see it. California requires registration when one moves into the state. I'm already a resident. I am not importing a gun from out of state or purchasing a new gun. I left the state with a gun, I returned with the same gun. The feds say that it is not a rifle until you mount a +16" barrel on it.

Actually a stock makes it a rifle or an SBR, not a barrel over 16".
Pistols can have barrels over 16", but can not have a buttstock.
Rifles have buttstocks, but can not have barrels under 16".

ar15barrels
09-08-2010, 11:16 PM
I thought handgun registration was required when a person moved into the state. Looks like it has nothing to do with residency, rather just the act of bringing a handgun into the state requires registration.

If you bring a handgun into the state that's not already registered, you would register it as a "personal handgun importer".

CSACANNONEER
09-09-2010, 7:11 AM
Actually a stock makes it a rifle or an SBR, not a barrel over 16".
Pistols can have barrels over 16", but can not have a buttstock.
Rifles have buttstocks, but can not have barrels under 16".

According to AFT&E, a lower with a buttstock attached but no barrel over 16" attached can be made into a pistol. AFAIK, California DOJ has never stated any opinion about this.

If you bring a handgun into the state that's not already registered, you would register it as a "personal handgun importer".

You "would" but, if the firearm (receiver) has already been transfered to you and DROSed by a CA FFL, I don't see anything which "requires" one to do this.


BTW, IANAL!!!!! I am not advocating this, I have not done this. I'm just trying to understand if this is legal or, if I am missing something. Yes, we all know the arguement that DROSing a receiver as a longgun might taint it. But, I have never seen any memo from ATF&E stating that it is tainted on a Federal level. So, if it is not Federally tainted, what is to keep one from assembling their lower, which was legally purchased in California, into a pistol while outside of California and then bringing their legally owned and configured firearm back into the state? Isn't this the same type of "outside the box" thinking that got us OLLs in the first place?

till44
09-09-2010, 7:30 AM
Letters from an ATF officer aren't law, it's how that particular officer interprets the law, the arresting officer/prosecutor/judge may see it different.

If you want to use an AFG on a pistol build, do as Randall said, "Get your own letter", but even then I wouldn't count on it as a get out of jail free card.

biglou
09-09-2010, 7:43 AM
Very interesting, now send the exact same letter to CADOJ and see what they have to say on the matter.

This ^

luciferkang
09-13-2010, 7:30 PM
wait, so is it legal for Californians to install a magpul afg on an ar pistol?

ke6guj
09-13-2010, 7:36 PM
wait, so is it legal for Californians to install a magpul afg on an ar pistol?

nobody knows. ATF has said that it would not violate federal law to install an AFG on an AR-pistol, but CADOJ/58DA's might feel differently.

luciferkang
09-13-2010, 8:06 PM
how could we/i find out? letter to ca doj?

titus7
09-13-2010, 8:34 PM
Yep send it!

thedrickel
09-13-2010, 9:14 PM
Good luck. I don't think the CA DOJ will respond.

bohoki
09-14-2010, 11:13 AM
http://www.hitechtactical.com/images/P/afg2.jpg

yep it doesn't look like any conventional definition of a pistol grip (looks a bit like a thumbhole grip)

just because ca law makes transfer of "other" firearms as a "long arm"

does not make it one it is just another crazy "state" law that the atf would ignore as precident

titus7
09-14-2010, 11:53 AM
Good luck. I don't think the CA DOJ will respond.

Have you ever talked to them?
I emailed them about something and had a phone call from them within a week. Real nice guy answered all of my questions and even inadvertently supported the bullet button.

ke6guj
09-14-2010, 12:24 PM
Have you ever talked to them?
I emailed them about something and had a phone call from them within a week. Real nice guy answered all of my questions and even inadvertently supported the bullet button.

getting an opinion over the phone is one thing, but an opinion in writing is another thing.

Getting a writen opinion is rare now, because we compile those opinions and then confront them with that opinion when they write a conflicting opinion to another person. In addition, we parse out exactly what the opinion does and doesn't say, cross-check that with the actual law, and take every bit of "wiggle room" that the opinion allows us.

Gundam
09-14-2010, 1:59 PM
Forget the AFG, I'm just wondering if a handstop (KAC, Gear Sector, Larue, etc) is ok to put on a pistol. I just drosed an AR pistol with an Adam Arms upper with 7.5" barrel and 4" rail and I really don't want to blow my freaken fingers off :{

bohoki
09-14-2010, 2:14 PM
they seemed to allow one on the steyr spp

http://members.shaw.ca/tmcveigh/Projects/GunRights/images/spp2.gif