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Plisk
09-07-2010, 12:14 AM
I have a question about threaded pistol barrel possession inside California.

A friend of mine bought a H&K Mk.23 pistol in California way back when, and it still had the threaded barrel. He moved out of state around the same time to Idaho. Work is making him move back into California for quite some time, so he's completely moving down here, gun collection included. He knows that threaded barrels for pistols are verboten here, but he has a question about that I couldn't answer.

Is it the barrel itself that is no-go, or is it only when installed into a handgun? He's curious if he would need to discard or de-thread the current barrel before moving back, or could he remove but retain the threaded barrel while replacing it with a non-threaded one?

NSR500
09-07-2010, 12:20 AM
Ownership is not illegal. The use of the threaded bbl on the handgun is.

Ed_Hazard
09-07-2010, 12:21 AM
He can remove the threaded barrel and retain it. Replace it with a non-threaded barrel in the gun.

bwiese
09-07-2010, 12:34 AM
The HK Mk23 pistol is only an AW if the threaded barrel is installed in it.

There's no 'constructive possession' for AWs so a barrel separate from the gun is OK. I would advise travelling/storage with the gun and barrel well separated just to avoid drama (i.e., gun in pistol case and keep the barrel in his shaving kit).

He can, in CA:
1. have the threads turned off the barrel
2. get a replacement barrel (factor or aftermarket) and turn the threads
3. I think there are unthreaded barrels available for this gun too

Group B
09-07-2010, 12:44 AM
Capitol City Firearms (http://www.ccfraceframes.com/home.php) used to make a non-threaded barrel for the Mk.23, complete with the groove for the o-ring, but unfortunately now all CCF does is make alloy glock frames and some glock barrels.

I picked-up a new HK factory Mk.23 barrel (as opposed to cutting the threads off the original, matching barrel), and sent it out to Randall (ar15barrels.com) for him to cut and crown it.

Randall did a great job on the cut & crown, I blackened the crown with some aluma-black, and the result looks great. I'll try to post up a pic tomorrow.

The barrels are available for $239 from MidwayUSA or $259 from HKParts.net

Plisk
09-07-2010, 12:51 AM
Thanks for all the info guys, I'll let him know what he can do.

I picked-up a new HK factory Mk.23 barrel (as opposed to cutting the threads off the original, matching barrel), and sent it out to Randall (ar15barrels.com) for him to cut and crown it.

H&K was willing to ship a threaded barrel to CA? Or did a local shop have it?

wash
09-07-2010, 7:50 AM
I think you could bullet button it and run 10 round magazines instead of messing with the barrel.

Not a very good option but still an option.

WatchMan
09-07-2010, 8:26 AM
I think you could bullet button it and run 10 round magazines instead of messing with the barrel.

Not a very good option but still an option.

BB for a Mark 23?

WatchMan
09-07-2010, 8:28 AM
I picked-up a new HK factory Mk.23 barrel (as opposed to cutting the threads off the original, matching barrel), and sent it out to Randall (ar15barrels.com) for him to cut and crown it.

Randall did a great job on the cut & crown, I blackened the crown with some aluma-black, and the result looks great. I'll try to post up a pic tomorrow.

The barrels are available for $239 from MidwayUSA or $259 from HKParts.net

I went through this with someone a while back and this seems to be precisely the thing to do. Functionality of the pistol is still completely in tact plus you get to save the wear and tear on the original barrel.

the_quark
09-07-2010, 8:43 AM
Also, too be clear, if he wants to worry about it, later, he can just disassemble the thing and keep it in pieces (again, ideally not too close to each other). He can then buy a new barrel after he gets out here.

Rossi357
09-07-2010, 8:55 AM
Cover the threads with an epoxy like JB weld. Then it can be removed if or when threaded barrels are legal.

SixtyDashOne
09-07-2010, 9:38 AM
BB for a Mark 23?

is that with or without a telescoping stock? lol :D

wash
09-07-2010, 9:44 AM
Cover the threads with an epoxy like JB weld. Then it can be removed if or when threaded barrels are legal.
I would not suggest this at all.

That's like pinning on a flash hider and saying the threads are gone.

There can be no threads on the barrel of a semi-automatic handgun with a detachable magazine.

JB weld isn't a magic thread eraser...

As to bullet buttons on pistols, yes it has been done and is a reasonable solution to the California "assault weapon" ban on handguns with features.

LazyBoy
09-07-2010, 9:58 AM
I think it would be better to replace the barrel with non-threaded one and put the original in storage

WatchMan
09-07-2010, 10:10 AM
As to bullet buttons on pistols, yes it has been done and is a reasonable solution to the California "assault weapon" ban on handguns with features.

Don't doubt it. Just thinking it would be an interesting piece of engineering on an HK mag release. Certainly not saying it can't be done, cuz I've never tried it. ;)

Group B
09-07-2010, 11:29 AM
1. have the threads turned off the barrel
2. get a replacement barrel (factor or aftermarket) and turn the threads


I briefly considered having Randall turn the threads off the replacement barrel I sent him, but after weighing how it would look afterward, that it could be more prone to snagging, and that shortening it would not likely reduce accuracy a bit, I decided to have him cut & crown instead.

H&K was willing to ship a threaded barrel to CA? Or did a local shop have it?

IIRC I ordered it from MidwayUSA.

They had no problem shipping it to me, plus the barrel is perfectly legal in CA when not installed in the pistol.

Cover the threads with an epoxy like JB weld. Then it can be removed if or when threaded barrels are legal.

Considering Mk.23 pistols are somewhat collectible, I wouldn't recommend this. I read somewhere that one guy silver-soldered a thread protector onto the end of the barrel. That's a real doozy, because you couldn't remove the barrel from the slide for routine cleaning.

I think you could bullet button it and run 10 round magazines instead of messing with the barrel.

Not a very good option but still an option.

I don't recommend modifying the original barrel. Besides, have you seen a Mk.23 pistol? This would be a big hassle, all things considered:

http://sgcusa.com/images/supporting_images_large/HK_Mark_23_Left_Side_B.jpg

I think it would be better to replace the barrel with non-threaded one and put the original in storage

This would be the ideal solution, however I'm not aware of any company that offers a non-threaded barrel for the Mk.23, and I contacted quite a few firms. MidwayUSA and HKParts.net are selling genuine HK replacement barrels. The only difference between these spare barrels and an original Mk.23 barrel, is that the original will have the serial number of the pistol stamped onto it, and the date codes will match the pistol. The spare barrels are genuine HK replacement parts, with the correct black finish and all. You would have to look closely to notice the absence of the serial number and the different date codes.

JagerTroop
09-07-2010, 12:28 PM
I would not suggest this at all.

That's like pinning on a flash hider and saying the threads are gone.

There can be no threads on the barrel of a semi-automatic handgun with a detachable magazine.

JB weld isn't a magic thread eraser...

As to bullet buttons on pistols, yes it has been done and is a reasonable solution to the California "assault weapon" ban on handguns with features.

FUD. He could just use a thread protector with red loctite. Look at the Sig Mosquito(or was it the Walther P22?). Show me the PC that says ther can be no threads on a barrel, even though they are perminently covered. I have a pistol with a threaded muzzle attachment that has been pinned/welded that runs detachable mags. Looks like I'm going to prison :rolleyes:

WatchMan
09-07-2010, 12:33 PM
He could just use a thread protector with red loctite.

Of course he would have to do this *before* arriving in CA and the barrel would never be able to be detached from the slide while the pistol remains in CA...or until the law changes/goes away.

ETA: Does red locktite constitute "permanent" attachment in the eyes of the law (DAs)?

freonr22
09-07-2010, 12:43 PM
not on an ar... has to be High temp solder think brazing rod/ 45% silver solder, not plumbing 450deg solder, or welded

JagerTroop
09-07-2010, 12:48 PM
not on an ar... has to be High temp solder think brazing rod/ 45% silver solder, not plumbing 450deg solder, or welded


This is true for Barrel length (16"), but not for a pistol. Red loctite is sufficient for "getting rid of threads".

Of course he would have to do this *before* arriving in CA and the barrel would never be able to be detached from the slide while the pistol remains in CA...or until the law changes/goes away.

ETA: Does red locktite constitute "permanent" attachment in the eyes of the law (DAs)?

Not neccesarily true. The barrel would have to be separated from the gun. There are no constructive possesion laws regarding AWs in CA. He could disassemble it, move, then "fix" the threads. Just be sure not to enter CA with the pistol assmbled.

Red Loctite is sufficient for disabling threads on a pistol barrel, but not for achieving minimum barrel length on a rifle.

wash
09-07-2010, 1:14 PM
Just beacuse the BOF let the SIG Mosquito be sold does not mean that you can't get prosecuted for a pistol "aw" with barrel threads under epoxy or a locktited thread protector.

"Well the SIG Mosquito has the same thing" is not going to get you out of trouble.

That might be a legal defense against "assault weapon" charges but it would be risky.

With California laws you need either an exception (fixed magazine) or legal prescedent (a lawsuit where it was determine that what you are doing is legal). Without either of those there is risk.

The SIG Mosquito is neither of those, it's just an example of the inconsistent application of the "assault weapon" laws.

Don't risk losing your gun and going to jail.

JagerTroop
09-07-2010, 1:25 PM
Kinda funny... there has never been a "thumbsup" from DOJ regarding ANY of the maglocks on the market, yet people use them freely. Hmmmm. I don't want to go to jail... better sell all of my rifles.

If Red Loctite w/ a thread protector is acceptable for disableing threads on one gun, why would it not apply to other handguns? All of the other AW neutering methods apply across the board... why not this one?

And, you have STILL not provided me with PC/caselaw that says it is NOT legal.

wash
09-07-2010, 2:13 PM
That's not quite true.

In the relevent legal prescedent the SKS was found to have a fixed magazine (as opposed to the listed "assault weapon" SKS with detachable magazine) and the Bullet button is a functional equivalent to the SKS. An SKS magazine can be detached by the tip of a bullet, just like the magazine of a bullet button AR.

The DOJ never gave the bullet button a "thumbsup" because that isn't their job.

Calguns foundation has noted that it is their goal to fight against incorrect "assault weapon" arrests and confiscation. They don't just want to get you out of jail, they want to get those guns back. That includes every bullet button fixed magazine non-"assault weapon" out there.

Group B
09-07-2010, 3:46 PM
Only digicam I have is my G1 phone, sorry for the crappy pics:

http://a.imageshack.us/img409/781/20100907133451.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/i/20100907133451.jpg/)
http://a.imageshack.us/img819/4549/20100907133245.jpg (http://img819.imageshack.us/i/20100907133245.jpg/)
http://a.imageshack.us/img444/2245/20100907133227.jpg (http://img444.imageshack.us/i/20100907133227.jpg/)
http://a.imageshack.us/img266/7829/20100907133101.jpg (http://img266.imageshack.us/i/20100907133101.jpg/)
http://a.imageshack.us/img85/7026/20100907132900.jpg (http://img85.imageshack.us/i/20100907132900.jpg/)
http://a.imageshack.us/img444/3763/20100907132424.jpg (http://img444.imageshack.us/i/20100907132424.jpg/)

WatchMan
09-07-2010, 4:15 PM
Not neccesarily true. The barrel would have to be separated from the gun. There are no constructive possesion laws regarding AWs in CA.

Yup. I blew that one. Must have been the long weekend. :oops:

JagerTroop
09-07-2010, 4:31 PM
That's not quite true.

In the relevent legal prescedent the SKS was found to have a fixed magazine (as opposed to the listed "assault weapon" SKS with detachable magazine) and the Bullet button is a functional equivalent to the SKS. An SKS magazine can be detached by the tip of a bullet, just like the magazine of a bullet button AR.

The DOJ never gave the bullet button a "thumbsup" because that isn't their job.

Calguns foundation has noted that it is their goal to fight against incorrect "assault weapon" arrests and confiscation. They don't just want to get you out of jail, they want to get those guns back. That includes every bullet button fixed magazine non-"assault weapon" out there.
Just as the relevant legal presidence of the P22. It is legal to have a P22 with a threaded bbl, with the thread protector epoxied/loctited on. What makes a 22 different from a 45 in this case? An AW pistol is an AW pistol, no matter the caliber.

Group b... very nice!

MustangGreg66
09-22-2010, 9:27 AM
So while we're on the subject of threaded pistol barrels here... it's still a little unclear to me what your concnesus is here.

Personally I'd like to build up a G17 or G34 (9mm) with a muzzle brake. The common way to do this is to get a barrel from someone like Lone Wolf that is threaded and screw the brake onto it. So if I did this and permanently attached the brake, red loctited it and made sure there was also locktite on any visable threads outside the brake would I be in the clear? or would they still consider it a threaded barrel?

the_quark
09-22-2010, 9:49 AM
Calguns foundation has noted that it is their goal to fight against incorrect "assault weapon" arrests and confiscation. They don't just want to get you out of jail, they want to get those guns back. That includes every bullet button fixed magazine non-"assault weapon" out there.

And, unless I'm forgetting someone, I believe every single case we've taken since the Foundation was incorporated, we got the guns back. (I word it a little precisely there since I believe BWO didn't get his guns back, but that was before we were strictly organized).

ldsnet
09-22-2010, 10:18 AM
I am not looking to hijack this thread, but what about one of these? Smith and Wesson 622. The barrel is held into the alunimum frame with a threaded nut at the end of the barrel.

http://http://media.photobucket.com/image/smith%20and%20wesson%20622/dexternikki/Smiths/IMG_2398.jpg

I purchased it at a CA gun show back in 1993.

jmatt511
09-22-2010, 4:46 PM
Jarvis Barrels makes replacement barrel without the threading. I'll try to find the weblink again.

tiger222
10-07-2010, 8:25 PM
So if a thread protector locktighted on is Ok, would a flash suppressor attatched the same method be ok?