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cornholio1
05-14-2006, 8:48 AM
I just came from a Hunters Safety Course yesterday. One of the most drawn out 10 hours of my life (although I did learn). He said not only do my guns need to be locked and seperated from the ammo during transportation to the gun range, but the ammo must be locked up as well. Is this true?

pepsi2451
05-14-2006, 9:04 AM
I never hear of that. Sounds like BS to me. Rifles don't even need to be locked and pistols only if they are concealed.

ohsmily
05-14-2006, 9:11 AM
no, for example, guns can be in the trunk and the ammo can be in the car in a bag, no lock required. If the gun and ammo are in the same compartment (trunk for example), then one of them needs to be locked separate from the other (e.g. ammo in a locked bag, or the guns in a locked case).

EBWhite
05-14-2006, 9:50 AM
NO NO NO. put your loaded magazines on your dash and your gun in your lap. Perfectly legal.....

Maybe not wise if you get pulled over but you are still legal.

ammo does not need to be locked...

Now, handguns and AW still need to be locked.

pepsi2451
05-14-2006, 10:31 AM
Can handguns still be transported unlocked as long as they aren't concealed even partly? I know it probably wouldn't be a good idea but I talked to a sheriff a while ago that said it was ok.

vonsmith
05-14-2006, 10:47 AM
NO NO NO. put your loaded magazines on your dash and your gun in your lap. Perfectly legal.....

Maybe not wise if you get pulled over but you are still legal.

ammo does not need to be locked...

Now, handguns and AW still need to be locked.

As I recall a loaded magazine all its own is legally considered a gun. Illogical yes, but I'm pretty sure that's the case. As for ammo, I don't believe it must be locked, but it does need to be stored separately from the gun while in a vehicle. That suggests a separate container. I carry my unloaded guns locked in a range bag and my ammo in an unlocked $8 Wal-mart tool box, then transfer the ammo into the bag at the range parking lot.


=vonsmith=

paradox
05-14-2006, 11:41 AM
As I recall a loaded magazine all its own is legally considered a gun.

Wrong.

I wish I could remember the case name, but the California case law says an unloaded gun is exactly what common sense states: no round in the chamber or loaded ammunition feeding device in the firearm. The case itself was about whether or not a single shot shotgun with an empty chamber but loaded butt-cuff was loaded or not. The Court ruled that it wasn't a loaded firearm.

1911_Mitch
05-14-2006, 11:52 AM
IIRC, a DA that did the instruction for a CCW class I took mentioned this in regards to SCHOOL ZONES.

I believe he mentioned that weapons and ammo must be locked while transporting in a school zone. Part of the 1000 foot rule. Private property within this zone is exempt, but if you are transporting (such as in a vehicle) he said it (both guns and ammo - seperately) needed to be locked up. I think that is a Federal law.

Now if you are out of a 1000 foot zone you are ok, but just about everywhere you go within an incoporated area you will be within 1000 feet of a school.

Its probably not something you would get busted for, but if they wanted to stack charges, they probably could.

vonsmith
05-14-2006, 10:58 PM
As I recall a loaded magazine all its own is legally considered a gun.


Wrong.

I wish I could remember the case name, but the California case law says an unloaded gun is exactly what common sense states: no round in the chamber or loaded ammunition feeding device in the firearm. The case itself was about whether or not a single shot shotgun with an empty chamber but loaded butt-cuff was loaded or not. The Court ruled that it wasn't a loaded firearm.


Case law or not, I'm not carrying a loaded magazine in my car. I don't want to be the next "test case". Because...

http://www.packing.org/oldnews/article/?article=5369

Yes, a loaded magazine is a loaded weapon
Added by Irbis on 2002-01-18 @ 00:44:25
I've been out of Kali for a while, but the nightmares of living there will be always with me. No, no exaggeration, that's how bad it is, and I am sure it's still that bad if not even worse yet... Anyway, by the Kalifornia tribunals, eh, I mean, by the courts of course, a semi-auto magazine is a part of a gun and if there are bullets in this son of a gun then the whole combination of a bullet and a magazine (the bullet does not even have to be INSIDE a magazine, it suffices if it f****ing excuse my French TOUCHES it) is a LOADED GUN... Ok, I am getting emotional... Let me calm down before I continue. Ain it stupid folks?? So, that basically means - you HAVE to rely on a revolver, because if you have a semiauto and no CCW then in a stress situation in Cali to get your gun ready you have to: unlock that container with the gun, unlock another container with a magazine, load the magazine, stick the magazine in the gun, pull the slide and only after that you are ready to shoot. What an advantage for a crook! YOu are not too much better out with a revolver, because loading the drumm is not too much faster than loading a magazine... I am getting emotional again... So, if you have "loaded magazines", from the point of view of a Kalifornia's kort that is a loaded gun. If a revolver is totally empty it has to be either on a plain sight (not reccomented with Kali gestapo, I mean CHP and such) or in a locked container. A speed loader is not a part of a gun and it's not more than a bunch of bullets which should be kosher even in Kali, but I am not sure, the laws there change so often... You can't have bullets in speedloaders or without in the same container, that's a loaded gun by definition of a Kali kort. Basically, each year the issue a new book named "How to own a gun and stay out of jail, the year XXXX edition" which are even colored differently, so drastically the laws change and so fast. The Kali legislators stay very busy putting more and more and more stupid laws in the books, so even the cops fail to catch up... When I lived there, the new laws were always worse then the old laws... HTH and be safe (stay in the USA)

Here is more discussion on this. Look about half way down the page...
http://www.packing.org/community/general/listview/12767/#chatitem_111639

And here...
http://www.packing.org/oldnews/article/?article=5369

A word to the wise, don't give the cops any excuse to take your guns away. Keep your magazines unloaded and your ammo in a separate container from the firearm when transporting in a vehicle. Don't let the gun grabbers get you.


=vonsmith=

ryang
05-15-2006, 7:53 AM
So much misinformation. So little time. Here's the basics on transporting firearms:

1. Pistol must be transported in a locked container other than the glove box. That means "simply" tossing it in the trunk is okay, provided you don't have a pass-through opening into the passenger compartment that is unlocked. It also means pistol in a locked box in the passenger compartment is okay.
2. Ammo (loaded or not) can not be in the same locked compartment. So tossing that same pistol and a box of ammo in the trunk is a no-no.

Corollary: let's say you have a range bag with multiple compartments. You can have an unloaded pistol locked in one compartment and loaded mags in a different, unlocked compartment of the same bag and be legal.

Side note: while you can transport a pistol in an unlocked container provided it's in a locked trunk, you're violating the law once you take it out of the trunk and hand carry it anywhere.

artherd
05-15-2006, 8:00 AM
2. Ammo (loaded or not) can not be in the same locked compartment. So tossing that same pistol and a box of ammo in the trunk is a no-no.

A wise precaution, but I know of no case or statute law precluding ammo and firearm in the same case, but not "attached in any way" to each other.

Side note: while you can transport a pistol in an unlocked container provided it's in a locked trunk, you're violating the law once you take it out of the trunk and hand carry it anywhere.
Not true if you leave and arrive on private property and have the permission of (or are the) owner to carry on said property. Then you can pull the gun out, chamber it, and put it in your holster.

vonsmith
05-15-2006, 8:39 AM
So much misinformation. So little time. Here's the basics on transporting firearms:

1. Pistol must be transported in a locked container other than the glove box. That means "simply" tossing it in the trunk is okay, provided you don't have a pass-through opening into the passenger compartment that is unlocked. It also means pistol in a locked box in the passenger compartment is okay.
2. Ammo (loaded or not) can not be in the same locked compartment. So tossing that same pistol and a box of ammo in the trunk is a no-no.

Corollary: let's say you have a range bag with multiple compartments. You can have an unloaded pistol locked in one compartment and loaded mags in a different, unlocked compartment of the same bag and be legal.

Side note: while you can transport a pistol in an unlocked container provided it's in a locked trunk, you're violating the law once you take it out of the trunk and hand carry it anywhere.

In regards to #1. The center console or any other console is a no-no too, not just the glove box.

In regards to #2. If you have a pickup truck, like I do, you don't have a trunk. So I advise keeping your unloaded pistol in a locked container, like a range bag. I choose to keep my ammo in a physically separate container, locked or unlocked, and my magazines empty.

In regards to "Corollary:" I know it's technically legal to have pistols and ammo in the same range bag, but physically separate and locked. However I don't want to challenge a cop to try to figure out if it's legal or not. Same goes for loaded magazines. Technically speaking a magazine is part of a gun, and if loaded be construed as a loaded part of a gun.

I agree with artherd about private property. You are perfectly legal to have unlocked pistol in the open trunk of your car when you are at the range or private property, unless the owner says otherwise.

By the way, there are no absolutes when it comes to gun laws. So I always err on the side of caution.


=vonsmith=

ryang
05-15-2006, 11:22 AM
I agree with artherd about private property. You are perfectly legal to have unlocked pistol in the open trunk of your car when you are at the range or private property, unless the owner says otherwise.I'm gonna disagree with you here. The range's parking lot is considered a public area and therefore the locked container is required.

The "hand carry it anywhere" assumes you are in a public place, since that was the subject of this discussion. I don't think anyone here would consider keeping a loaded firearm in a locked container illegal provided it was in your residence.

I'm fine with people saying "this is what you can and can't legally do, and this is why I choose to go beyond what's required." It's the bozos that claim something is against the law when it isn't that do damage by spreading misinformation--regardless of how well intentioned.

Yute
05-15-2006, 3:42 PM
Question - does a trigger locked firearm in an unlocked case considered to be in a locked?

Also is there are types of locks we are suppose to use? Is a walmart combo lock ok for locking up ammo?

Thanks!

FreedomIsNotFree
05-15-2006, 4:41 PM
I wish people would take a look around the forum before starting or commenting. There are two other threads, going right now, that speak to these very issues.

Let me be clear.


A loaded magazine or clip is perfectly legal as long as it is not attached to the gun in any manner.

I transport my hangun, unloaded, in a CA approved locked container, on my passenger seat while having my LOADED clip in the center console.

This is completely legal.

If you don't believe me read 12031 for yourself.

Can we please stop having to address this every day in new threads? People that don't read the law for themselves are getting confused.

Python2
05-15-2006, 7:23 PM
I just came from a Hunters Safety Course yesterday. One of the most drawn out 10 hours of my life (although I did learn). He said not only do my guns need to be locked and seperated from the ammo during transportation to the gun range, but the ammo must be locked up as well. Is this true?

Locked ammo is BS. Get yourself a copy of Cal Gun Laws and read it. There is a concealed gun Law and a loaded gun law. Never heard nor read anything that requires ammo to be locked. Hell, you can even have ammo with the guns in a locked container. We IPSC and IDPA shooters carry our shooting bags with ammos and unloaded guns inside it. You can even have a loaded magazine as long as they are not attached to the gun.

vega
05-15-2006, 9:16 PM
Locked ammo is BS. Get yourself a copy of Cal Gun Laws and read it. There is a concealed gun Law and a loaded gun law. Never heard nor read anything that requires ammo to be locked. Hell, you can even have ammo with the guns in a locked container. We IPSC and IDPA shooters carry our shooting bags with ammos and unloaded guns inside it. You can even have a loaded magazine as long as they are not attached to the gun.
Not all IPSC and IDPA shooters carry their shooting bags with ammos and unloaded guns inside it.

artherd
05-15-2006, 10:02 PM
I'm gonna disagree with you here. The range's parking lot is considered a public area and therefore the locked container is required.
Range parking lot is a Public area of Private Property, just like your own driveway. You can't get poped for illegal CCW in your own driveway for chrissake!

Big difference than a city owned street or state or federal freeway.

You do need the permission of the owner of said private property.

artherd
05-15-2006, 10:03 PM
Not all IPSC and IDPA shooters carry their shooting bags with ammos and unloaded guns inside it.
Some of you permittes probally load the guns :D

Matt C
05-15-2006, 10:33 PM
There is statutory law and CASE law. Not one person here got everything right. Don't get your legal advice off the internet, it's not worth losing your guns.

FreedomIsNotFree
05-15-2006, 11:03 PM
There is statutory law and CASE law. Not one person here got everything right. Don't get your legal advice off the internet, it's not worth losing your guns.

Care to clarify for everyone here who did not get it right? Or do you just "know" everyone is wrong?

I've read the law.....everyone should....

P.C. 12031

CalNRA
05-16-2006, 12:56 AM
IIRC, a DA that did the instruction for a CCW class I took mentioned this in regards to SCHOOL ZONES.

I believe he mentioned that weapons and ammo must be locked while transporting in a school zone. Part of the 1000 foot rule. Private property within this zone is exempt, but if you are transporting (such as in a vehicle) he said it (both guns and ammo - seperately) needed to be locked up. I think that is a Federal law.

Now if you are out of a 1000 foot zone you are ok, but just about everywhere you go within an incoporated area you will be within 1000 feet of a school.

Its probably not something you would get busted for, but if they wanted to stack charges, they probably could.

Now if I am transporting a firearm and ammo in seperate locked containers, am I allowed to park the car on a public street within 1000 feet of the school zone? SOmetimes parking on private property is not a choice. I am just carrying a longgun in my car while in incorporated areas.

I know that under the Gun-free Zone Act it is legal to have an unloaded, locked firearm in your motor vehicle within 1000 feet of a school. But it says nothing about parking. And are there any California state laws against parking a car like that?

gh429
05-16-2006, 1:16 AM
1. Exemptions - First off I can't really see how the argument that 12026.2 exempts anyone from anything even makes sense. "b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision"

Seems pretty clear to me, keep your weapons unloaded in the trunk.

2. The Gun free school act or whatever (626.9) specifically states legal transport of an unloaded firearm is fine. I would find it difficult to believe that the state legislature expects law abiding citizens with firearms to meander their way around school zones to get from point A to point B. :)

3. Anyone have any thoughts about how a rifle in a case is a concealable firearm?

4. Regarding ammunition in the magazine NOT ATTACHED to the firearm, I have not seen anyone ever being charged with having a loaded firearm when the magazine (clip) is not in the firearm. This would simply be inconsistent with the accepted concept of "unloaded firearm" that is used each and everyday by the criminial justice system.

""A firearm does not cease to be a firearm when it is unloaded or inoperable... This applies to semiautomatic firearms as well as any other kind. When a clip is removed from a semiautomatic firearm, the firearm does not suddenly become a billy club, a stick, or a duck." - California Court of Appeals

Taken in context with the case, I think it is reasonable to conclude that the courts have defined a firearm unloaded when "a clip is removed".

I have and will continue to transport my firearms with fully loaded magazines separate from the rifles / handguns without fear of prosecution. Anyone have any thoughts as to shotgun side-saddles? :)

EBWhite
05-16-2006, 1:22 AM
If you make a habit of hanging around with firearms within a 1000 feet of a school, you will get popped for it.

However, a public street can be used to transport a firearm. You may still carry your mag on the dash and rifle in your lap unloaded and drive right past a school. Nobody is going to tell you that you cannot drive down that street since its too close to a school...

FreedomIsNotFree
05-16-2006, 1:57 AM
Seems pretty clear to me, keep your weapons unloaded in the trunk.

Anyone have any thoughts as to shotgun side-saddles? :)

The trunk is considered a locked container. So is the CA approved compact pistol case sitting on my passenger seat.....haha.

In regards to the shotgun side-saddle the law is clear. It may not be attached IN ANY MANNER to the firearm.

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.


Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

CalNRA
05-16-2006, 2:18 AM
The trunk is considered a locked container. So is the CA approved compact pistol case sitting on my passenger seat.....haha.


When I go on road trips with my girl friend, the locked case sits at her feet. SHe knows the combo, and knows how to load a magzine. and there is a box of 45acp in the glvoe compartment. you connect the dots.

THen again my parents(or my kids) will sue the city and the state if I ever get mugged and shot, for failure to allow citizens the right to protect themselves...and you guys can enjoy any potential benefits....

newtothis
05-16-2006, 9:38 PM
How about in a station wagon or van? Pistols in locked box or with trigger lock. Ammo in front seat, back seat or back -but in different row?

CalNRA
05-16-2006, 10:04 PM
How about in a station wagon or van? Pistols in locked box or with trigger lock. Ammo in front seat, back seat or back -but in different row?

the very presence of a locked container means you are covered in have the gun being "unloaded in a locked container". The Ammo can be pretty much anywhere in the car other than your mouth.

I regularly transport my handguns in a locked container and a few boxes of ammo sitting ina bag in the front seat with the pistol container. If the cops bust me for that it would mean I'm doing something else wrong...

Librarian
05-16-2006, 10:09 PM
The trunk is considered a locked container. So is the CA approved compact pistol case sitting on my passenger seat.....haha.

In regards to the shotgun side-saddle the law is clear. It may not be attached IN ANY MANNER to the firearm.

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.


Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
It is - see People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147, 1154 (http://login.findlaw.com/scripts/callaw?dest=ca/caapp4th/45/1147.html) -- The Legislature in Penal Code section 12031, subdivision (g), provided some examples of how a shell would be "attached" to a firearm so that the firearm is loaded, i.e., in the firing chamber, magazine or clip; situations in which the firearm would be "loaded" in the usual meaning of the word, i.e., the shell is placed in a position from which it can be fired. Significantly, the Legislature also provided that a muzzle-loader firearm must be capped or primed, have a powder charge and ball in the barrel or cylinder before it is deemed "loaded," again a definition which is consistent with the common meaning of the term "loaded," i.e., ready for firing.

Given the examples are all consistent with an intent to use the common meaning of "loaded," it follows the Legislature's use of the phrase "attached in any manner" to the firearm was intended to encompass a situation where a shell or cartridge might be attached to a firearm or "loaded" for firing by some unconventional method. The phrase does not demonstrate a clear Legislative intent to deem a firearm loaded no matter how a shell is attached to a firearm; in particular, it does not indicate a clear intent to deem a gun "loaded" when the ammunition, as here, is in a storage compartment which is not equivalent to either a magazine or clip and from which the ammunition cannot be fired.

Our conclusion that the Legislature intended "loaded" as used in Penal Code section 12031 to reflect the common definition is supported by the court in People v. Heffner (1977) 70 Cal.App.3d 643, 650 [139 Cal.Rptr. 45], which reached the same conclusion ("the apparent purpose [of the 'loaded' definition] is to make it clear that for purpose of section 12031 the usual meaning of 'loaded firearm' is to apply."). In Heffner, the court noted when the Legislature adopted Penal Code section 12031, it also adopted another Penal Code statute which contained a special definition of "loaded," i.e., that a firearm was loaded if the firearm and unexpended ammunition were in the immediate possession of the same person. This definition applied to the offenses of bringing a "loaded" firearm into certain state governmental offices and residences of certain state officers and legislators. (People v. Heffner, supra, 70 Cal.App.3d at p. 650; Pen. Code, § 171e.) Since Heffner, the Legislature has adopted this special definition of "loaded" for the offense of carrying a loaded firearm with an intent to commit a felony. (Pen. Code, [45 Cal.App.4th 1155] §§ 12001, subd. (j); 12023.) fn. 1 Significantly, the Legislature has not amended the common definition of "loaded" as used in section 12031 nor elected to provide a specialized definition of "loaded" for Health and Safety Code section 11370.1.

The Attorney General argues we should adopt an expansive definition of "loaded" in light of the Legislature's general concern with increasing punishment for those who possess firearms and our Supreme Court's recognition the presence of firearms and drugs increases the potential for death or injury. (See People v. Bland (1995) 10 Cal.4th 991, 1001-1002 [43 Cal.Rptr.2d 77, 898 P.2d 391].) While this argument could support a specialized and expansive definition of "loaded" for a violation of Health and Safety Code section 11370.1, subdivision (a), it does not establish such a definition was intended. Had the Legislature intended to apply a specialized definition of "loaded" for Health and Safety Code section 11370.1 encompassing the situation where the ammunition was stored in or adjacent to a firearm, they easily could have so provided. They, however, did not elect to do so.

Finally, we note that at most the Attorney General has raised a potential ambiguity in the use of the term "loaded." [3] As Clark correctly observes, ambiguities in statutes are to be construed in favor of the defendant; " ' "[t]he defendant is entitled to the benefit of every reasonable doubt, whether it arise out of a question of fact, or as to the true interpretation of words or the construction of language used in a statute. [Citation.]" ' " (People v. Garfield (1985) 40 Cal.3d 192, 200 [219 Cal.Rptr. 196, 707 P.2d 258].) [1c] Thus, to the extent an ambiguity exists between whether the Legislature intended the term "loaded" to be used in its ordinary sense (i.e., a shell placed in a position ready to be fired) or to be used in an unusual sense (i.e., including a shell placed in a storage compartment from which it cannot be fired), we adopt the construction more favorable to Clark, i.e., that the term was intended to be used in its ordinary sense and that the shotgun here was not loaded.
But until I read Clark, I held the same opinion as you wrote.

paradox
05-17-2006, 5:45 AM
It is - see People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147, 1154 (http://login.findlaw.com/scripts/callaw?dest=ca/caapp4th/45/1147.html) -- But until I read Clark, I held the same opinion as you wrote.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. That is the case I was refering to at the very beginning.

We need a stickied thread of case law that has this at the top so people stop with the stupid "lock your ammo away from the gun" or "a loaded magazine is a loaded gun" advice. I have noticed that the courts tend to be rather straight forward and utilize common sense far better than the Legislature, DOJ, or even gun nuts.

xenophobe
05-17-2006, 7:44 AM
This is all very subjective... in Utah, if you have a loaded magazine in a pistol, without a round chambered, you do not have a loaded firearm. It is considered unloaded.

In California however, having a loaded magazine and the handgun in the vehicle, you *could* have charges of having a loaded firearm filed depending on how you have both stored and if the DA wishes to interpret the law strictly or leniently. With a really liberal judge, case law smase law... you could find yourself in the midst of a judge who may not share the same belief.

As long as you carry your loaded magazines in a separate and locked container, and your firearms in seperate locked containers you should be alright. Common sense prevails here, and as long as you're not in the commission of a crime and you're on the up and up, you shouldn't have any problems.

Having a loaded magazine AND a handgun within reach is a bad idea. The magazine is a part of the firearm, and having both simultaneously accessible may not be in your best legal interest in California if you get pulled over.

eje
05-17-2006, 9:12 AM
Here's a link to a thread at glocktalk where this issue gets discussed in depth: http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=5023966#post5023966

Here's what I think:

*If you have an unloaded pistol in the requisite locked container, and a loaded magazine somewhere else in the car, you are not violating any law and there is no case law or California statute that even remotely suggests that your loaded magazine constitutes a loaded firearm.

*There is no authority anywhere that a "loaded magazine=loaded firearm." There is one published opinion that seems to be the source of all the confusion, People v. Hale 43 Cal.App.3d 353 (1974). Actually, it's the "How to Own a Gun & Stay Out of Jail" book's description of People v. Hale that is the problem.

This passage is from "How to Own a Gun & Stay Out of Jail": "Courts have gone so far as to think of a gun's Magazine as being a 'part' of the gun. In general, even if a gun has been diasassembled into two or more parts it's still a 'gun' in the eyes of the law. Courts have applied this theory to the concealed gun law, and consider a hidden magazine to be a partially concealed gun."

When people read this, they think, "if a magazine is a gun then a loaded magazine must be a loaded gun." The problem is Hale doesn't really say a hidden magazine by itself is a concealed weapon. What Hale says is that if you have a handgun that is visible, but one essential component (i.e., a magazine) of that handun is nearby and concealed, then the person in possession of the visible handgun may nevertheless be in violation of the concealed weapon law. In other words, if any essential part of the handgun is concealed, then the concealed weapon law comes into play, even if the rest of the handgun is in plain view. There is nothing in Hale to suggest that the loaded weapon law would come into play if you have a loaded magazine in proximity to, but not attached to, the handgun. There is no other court opinion or California statute that even remotely suggests this.

Even the "How to Own a Gun..." book notes that "[t]he law is not clear on whether you can carry a loaded magazine in the same container as the gun it fits into without falling under the loaded gun law. The answer depends on whether a magazine in the same container is 'attached' to the gun." The book does not even entertain the possibility that you'd have a loaded handgun if you had a pistol in a locked container but the loaded magazine was somewhere outside the container.

*A couple years ago they actually proposed to change the loaded handgun law so that it would cover the situation where you had both a handgun and ammo in your immediate possession, but the ammo wasn't attached to the firearm:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/03-04/bill/asm/ab_2501-2550/ab_2501_cfa_20040419_135609_asm_comm.html

The analysis of the bill even describes how gang members exploit the current definition of "loaded firearm" by ejecting the magazine from the pistol before getting pulled over by the cops.

*The loaded weapon law does say that the ammo must be attached to the firearm for the weapon to be loaded. Although People v. Clark interprets this as meaning that the ammo must be attached to the firearm in a position from which it can be fired, if you read the statute literally it could plausibly cover shells in a shotgun side-sidesaddle. If you have to err on the side of caution in any interpretation of the loaded weapon law, this would be the place I think.

FreedomIsNotFree
05-17-2006, 12:59 PM
It is - see People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147, 1154 (http://login.findlaw.com/scripts/callaw?dest=ca/caapp4th/45/1147.html) -- But until I read Clark, I held the same opinion as you wrote.

The case you quoted, People v. Heffner, dealt with what is considered a loaded weapon when a person has the intent of committing a felony.

Very different from the law abiding citizen transporting his handgun in his car.

Please read....

In Heffner, the court noted when the Legislature adopted Penal Code section 12031, it also adopted another Penal Code statute which contained a special definition of "loaded," i.e., that a firearm was loaded if the firearm and unexpended ammunition were in the immediate possession of the same person. This definition applied to the offenses of bringing a "loaded" firearm into certain state governmental offices and residences of certain state officers and legislators. (People v. Heffner, supra, 70 Cal.App.3d at p. 650; Pen. Code, § 171e.) Since Heffner, the Legislature has adopted this special definition of "loaded" for the offense of carrying a loaded firearm with an intent to commit a felony. (Pen. Code, [45 Cal.App.4th 1155] §§ 12001, subd. (j); 12023.) fn. 1 Significantly, the Legislature has not amended the common definition of "loaded" as used in section 12031 nor elected to provide a specialized definition of "loaded" for Health and Safety Code section 11370.1.

Jicko
05-17-2006, 1:14 PM
As long as you carry your loaded magazines in a separate and locked container, and your firearms in seperate locked containers you should be alright. Common sense prevails here, and as long as you're not in the commission of a crime and you're on the up and up, you shouldn't have any problems.

Why do we need to have "loaded magazines" locked!?


Having a loaded magazine AND a handgun within reach is a bad idea. The magazine is a part of the firearm, and having both simultaneously accessible may not be in your best legal interest in California if you get pulled over.

Is the "magazine" consider part of the firearm?

If it is, then a "loaded magazine" is a "loaded firearm".... hence.... that should be a BIG NO NO....

If it is NOT, then you should be able to have a "loaded magazine" on you... and it would just be the same has having a box of ammo on you....

:confused: I thought I am clear before... but now I'm confused...


I thought... having a loaded magazine on me(or within reach in my vehicle) is totally LEGAL....

And I thought.... my pistol, in a locked container besides me, on the passenger seat is also LEGAL....


Now... if I am NOT travelling in my vehicle... and if I'm taking public transportation... I believed.... that my pistol, unloaded, in a locked container... in my backpack is also LEGAL, and NOT contributed to "concealed carry"..... please correct me if I am wrong...


And on a different topic, where does it say... my ammo need to be in a different container??? I always thought that... ammo, in the same locked container with the pistol is ALSO ok(altho I generally will not do this...)... as long as it is NOT attached to the firearm, even if they are loaded in the magazine(while the magazine is not attached to the firearm...)...... please correct me again..... I am talking about legality... not whether or not it is a good idea or not... (this is the one point that I'm not certain about...)

FreedomIsNotFree
05-17-2006, 1:20 PM
This is all very subjective... in Utah, if you have a loaded magazine in a pistol, without a round chambered, you do not have a loaded firearm. It is considered unloaded.

In California however, having a loaded magazine and the handgun in the vehicle, you *could* have charges of having a loaded firearm filed depending on how you have both stored and if the DA wishes to interpret the law strictly or leniently. With a really liberal judge, case law smase law... you could find yourself in the midst of a judge who may not share the same belief.

As long as you carry your loaded magazines in a separate and locked container, and your firearms in seperate locked containers you should be alright. Common sense prevails here, and as long as you're not in the commission of a crime and you're on the up and up, you shouldn't have any problems.

Having a loaded magazine AND a handgun within reach is a bad idea. The magazine is a part of the firearm, and having both simultaneously accessible may not be in your best legal interest in California if you get pulled over.

Xeno.....I'm usually with you, but on this I dont agree that it is subjective or a bad idea. In fact, I think it is a great idea for law abiding folks to use the law to its fullest extent.

There is ZERO case law to support the notion that you could be charged with having a concealed weapon by merely having a loaded clip/mag, as long as it is not attached to the firearm in any manner. How more clear could the law be....it spells it out word for word.

Granted, you may run into an overzealous cop that is not up on the law, which could cause you some short term issues, but I dont think it is likely. I always keep a copy of CA gun law with me just for that type of incident.

FreedomIsNotFree
05-17-2006, 1:26 PM
Why do we need to have "loaded magazines" locked!?




Is the "magazine" consider part of the firearm?

If it is, then a "loaded magazine" is a "loaded firearm".... hence.... that should be a BIG NO NO....

If it is NOT, then you should be able to have a "loaded magazine" on you... and it would just be the same has having a box of ammo on you....

:confused: I thought I am clear before... but now I'm confused...


I thought... having a loaded magazine on me(or within reach in my vehicle) is totally LEGAL....

And I thought.... my pistol, in a locked container besides me, on the passenger seat is also LEGAL....


Now... if I am NOT travelling in my vehicle... and if I'm taking public transportation... I believed.... that my pistol, unloaded, in a locked container... in my backpack is also LEGAL, and NOT contributed to "concealed carry"..... please correct me if I am wrong...


And on a different topic, where does it say... my ammo need to be in a different container??? I always thought that... ammo, in the same locked container with the pistol is ALSO ok(altho I generally will not do this...)... as long as it is NOT attached to the firearm, even if they are loaded in the magazine(while the magazine is not attached to the firearm...)...... please correct me again..... I am talking about legality... not whether or not it is a good idea or not... (this is the one point that I'm not certain about...)


I think you are 100% correct. The only area I am a little unclear on would be transporting a handgun on a public bus. I am not sure if there are any laws against that. In terms of walking down the street...as long as the handgun is locked and the ammunition is NOT attached in any manner you are legal....even with a loaded clip.

One person previously wrote that you had to use a vehicle to transport your handgun and that it is illegal to transport by foot on public property even with the gun locked and seperated from the ammo. To me, this makes no sense.....that would be unless you owned a vehicle or had access to one you would not be able to own a handgun.

VeryCoolCat
05-17-2006, 1:33 PM
This is all turning into a bunch of bull....

the rules for transporting a FIREARM in a vehicle IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA are as Follows.

HANDGUNS/ASSAULT: Must Be in a locked case, UNLOADED. With the chamber empty and no magazine attached. The magazine can be RIGHT NEXT to the handgun, but cannot be loaded in.

"The term "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device. This includes the trunk of a motor vehicle, but does not include the utility or glove compartment. For more information, refer to California Penal Code Section 12026.1."

RIFLES: They must be covered (trunk counts) and UNLOADED.

Nonconcealable firearms (rifles and shotguns) are not generally covered within the provisions of California Penal Code section 12025 and therefore are not required to be transported in a locked container. However, as with any firearm, nonconcealable firearms must be unloaded while they are being transported. A rifle or shotgun that is considered an assault weapon in California must be transported in accordance with Penal Code section 12026.1.

Now, you can have a firearm UNLOADED, NON-CONCEALED on your possesion.

So that means if you throw an unloaded handgun, no case into the trunk of your car with a few boxes of ammo, when you take it out. As long as its unloaded and you dont conceal it, ITS COMPLETELY LEGAL... but in the state of anti-gun california is EXTREMELY NOT SUGESTED AND AGAINST BETTER JUDGEMENT. Can cause a insightment and get you in trouble.

Same goes for rifles. Except MOST RANGES... WILL NOT ACCEPT a firearm NOT in a case.
----------------------------

FORGOT TO ADD:
One huge reason for ammunition being in a container is for general safety standards. While Driving and in the case of an accident you just created a huge barrage of projectile and might get yourself killed or others killed.

rkt88edmo
05-17-2006, 4:02 PM
Now that is BS.

Unless the round is in some type of container that will direct the pressure in the same manner as a chamber and barrel, the only projectile would be the brass and it certaily is not going to be traveling at a velocity that would kill you.


FORGOT TO ADD:
One huge reason for ammunition being in a container is for general safety standards. While Driving and in the case of an accident you just created a huge barrage of projectile and might get yourself killed or others killed.

FreedomIsNotFree
05-17-2006, 4:24 PM
This is all turning into a bunch of bull....

the rules for transporting a FIREARM in a vehicle IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA are as Follows.

HANDGUNS/ASSAULT: Must Be in a locked case, UNLOADED. With the chamber empty and no magazine attached. The magazine can be RIGHT NEXT to the handgun, but cannot be loaded in.



RIFLES: They must be covered (trunk counts) and UNLOADED.



Now, you can have a firearm UNLOADED, NON-CONCEALED on your possesion.

So that means if you throw an unloaded handgun, no case into the trunk of your car with a few boxes of ammo, when you take it out. As long as its unloaded and you dont conceal it, ITS COMPLETELY LEGAL... but in the state of anti-gun california is EXTREMELY NOT SUGESTED AND AGAINST BETTER JUDGEMENT. Can cause a insightment and get you in trouble.

Same goes for rifles. Except MOST RANGES... WILL NOT ACCEPT a firearm NOT in a case.
----------------------------

FORGOT TO ADD:
One huge reason for ammunition being in a container is for general safety standards. While Driving and in the case of an accident you just created a huge barrage of projectile and might get yourself killed or others killed.


The only bull here is when people like you comment on issues you obviously have NOT researched. Sure, your impression may be different. Sure, your buddy, or even a cop, may have told you differently. But the fact remains...it is NOT illegal to have a loaded clip or magazine as long as it is NOT attached to the firearm in any manner. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

If you think that is "bull" I challenge you to prove it. Cite the law.....cite any caselaw......

If you can prove me wrong I will transfer an OLL to you free of charge....I'll even pay your DROS and FFL fees...hows that sound?

Anyone.......

Librarian
05-17-2006, 4:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian
It is - see People v. Clark (1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147, 1154 -- But until I read Clark, I held the same opinion as you wrote.

The case you quoted, People v. Heffner, dealt with what is considered a loaded weapon when a person has the intent of committing a felony.
I didn't quote Heffner, I quoted Clark, exactly as shown in the quote you included. Perhaps some other poster?

BPA
05-17-2006, 5:30 PM
Just dont go storing your loaded magazine in the same locked container your gun is in and put it mags with the rest of your ammo:rolleyes:

Jicko
05-17-2006, 5:34 PM
Just dont go storing your loaded magazine in the same locked container your gun is in and put it mags with the rest of your ammo:rolleyes:

The above is just a memo that you want to publish, right? No legal effect....

:D

BPA
05-17-2006, 5:40 PM
something like that...lol

xenophobe
05-17-2006, 6:42 PM
Why do we need to have "loaded magazines" locked!?


I didn't say there was a need. Only to play it safe, use common sense.



:confused: I thought I am clear before... but now I'm confused...

I thought... having a loaded magazine on me(or within reach in my vehicle) is totally LEGAL....


I am only providing opinion. Nowhere did I state 'law' or 'illegal'. Please show me where I've stated otherwise.



And on a different topic, where does it say... my ammo need to be in a different container???

Where did I say it NEEDED to be? Where does it state that I'm even implying that it is illegal?

*shrug*

I am talking about legality... not whether or not it is a good idea or not... (this is the one point that I'm not certain about...)

I'm not talking about legality, since the legality of such can be initially differently depending if you've got a firearm in a backpack at the movie theater in the middle of San Francisco or out camping at Clearlake and how any particular law enforcement officer would choose to handle either or any given situation.

Again, please show me where I once stated that anything was particularly legal or not.

xenophobe
05-17-2006, 6:49 PM
Xeno.....I'm usually with you, but on this I dont agree that it is subjective or a bad idea. In fact, I think it is a great idea for law abiding folks to use the law to its fullest extent.

There is ZERO case law to support the notion that you could be charged with having a concealed weapon by merely having a loaded clip/mag, as long as it is not attached to the firearm in any manner. How more clear could the law be....it spells it out word for word.


Police officers generally aren't aware of case law. They usually go with what's in their training and books, and the law as written isn't particularly clear to me. There is some ambiguity to be had. If it weren't ambiguious, why would there even need to be case law to clarify?

Again, I'm not worried about long term issues. It's being harassed at the initial stop, and perhaps even spending a night in the slammer (or the weekend if you happen to get pulled over on a friday).



Granted, you may run into an overzealous cop that is not up on the law, which could cause you some short term issues, but I dont think it is likely. I always keep a copy of CA gun law with me just for that type of incident.

Yes, and avoiding troubles with that overzealous cop is what I'm wishing to avoid. A nightmare is a nightmare, any way you look at it. Long term issues aren't the point. Avoiding the short term... being held, having the watch commander come down, having them BS and argue between each other, look at their reference notes, etc...

Such a stop could easily take 5 minutes or 3 hours. I'd rather not have to sit captive for any extended time.

gh429
05-17-2006, 9:52 PM
RIFLES: They must be covered (trunk counts) and UNLOADED.


Despite what the DOJ says, I've read some opinions that seems to indicate ANY firearm that is in a bag, box, case, etc. is considered concealed or concealable. That to me would indicated anything but having your rifle in plain sight in the back seat or on your gun rack (don't see those to much in california now do we :) ) without it being locked would be a concealed weapon.

I also wanted to point out that some who have argued for the absolute inability to be prosecuted for "sporting conversions" are now advocating not loading your mags to "play it safe." :)

Me personally, I'm the opposite - I drive everyday to and from work with a loaded mag, but will not take any sporting conversions to the range. Hehe

Librarian
05-17-2006, 10:33 PM
Despite what the DOJ says, I've read some opinions that seems to indicate ANY firearm that is in a bag, box, case, etc. is considered concealed or concealable. That to me would indicated anything but having your rifle in plain sight in the back seat or on your gun rack (don't see those to much in california now do we :) ) without it being locked would be a concealed weapon.
Concealed, yes - but it is not illegal to conceal one if it is not described by PC 1200112001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less
than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that
has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be
interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol,"
"revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."
(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to
be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel a
projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.Locking it has no bearing on concealed - concealed is just 'not visible'.

12001 (b) also is the reason a magazine cannot be a firearm - no barrel, not designed to be used AS a weapon (in one, though).

FreedomIsNotFree
05-18-2006, 2:06 AM
I didn't quote Heffner, I quoted Clark, exactly as shown in the quote you included. Perhaps some other poster?

Look at the third paragraph of the second quote.....

Our conclusion that the Legislature intended "loaded" as used in Penal Code section 12031 to reflect the common definition is supported by the court in People v. Heffner (1977) 70 Cal.App.3d 643, 650 [139 Cal.Rptr. 45], which reached the same conclusion ("the apparent purpose [of the 'loaded' definition] is to make it clear that for purpose of section 12031 the usual meaning of 'loaded firearm' is to apply."). In Heffner, the court noted when the Legislature adopted Penal Code section 12031, it also adopted another Penal Code statute which contained a special definition of "loaded," i.e., that a firearm was loaded if the firearm and unexpended ammunition were in the immediate possession of the same person. This definition applied to the offenses of bringing a "loaded" firearm into certain state governmental offices and residences of certain state officers and legislators. (People v. Heffner, supra, 70 Cal.App.3d at p. 650; Pen. Code, § 171e.) Since Heffner, the Legislature has adopted this special definition of "loaded" for the offense of carrying a loaded firearm with an intent to commit a felony. (Pen. Code, [45 Cal.App.4th 1155] §§ 12001, subd. (j); 12023.) fn. 1 Significantly, the Legislature has not amended the common definition of "loaded" as used in section 12031 nor elected to provide a specialized definition of "loaded" for Health and Safety Code section 11370.1.



Seems you quoted it, but didn't realize it. It explains that clearly the definition that you were speaking of dealt with a person that had the intent of committing a felony. Not the law abiding citizen transporting his handgun.

ryang
05-18-2006, 7:32 AM
One person previously wrote that you had to use a vehicle to transport your handgun and that it is illegal to transport by foot on public property even with the gun locked and seperated from the ammo. To me, this makes no sense.....that would be unless you owned a vehicle or had access to one you would not be able to own a handgun.Can you cite the post number for this? Because I think you're referring to a post I made and I definitely did not say what you claim.

Dont Tread on Me
05-18-2006, 8:05 AM
From the CHP's Website:

"If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well."

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html#05

gh429
05-18-2006, 12:38 PM
Concealed, yes - but it is not illegal to conceal one if it is not described by PC 12001Locking it has no bearing on concealed - concealed is just 'not visible'.

12001 (b) also is the reason a magazine cannot be a firearm - no barrel, not designed to be used AS a weapon (in one, though).

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't see that definition. Makes sense now. :)

Librarian
05-18-2006, 8:16 PM
Seems you quoted it, but didn't realize it. It explains that clearly the definition that you were speaking of dealt with a person that had the intent of committing a felony. Not the law abiding citizen transporting his handgun.Clark referred to Heffner, true - but the Clark case was about a shotgun with the rounds in a butt storage area. Clark is quite clear that The Legislature in Penal Code section 12031, subdivision (g), provided some examples of how a shell would be "attached" to a firearm so that the firearm is loaded, i.e., in the firing chamber, magazine or clip; situations in which the firearm would be "loaded" in the usual meaning of the word, i.e., the shell is placed in a position from which it can be fired. Significantly, the Legislature also provided that a muzzle-loader firearm must be capped or primed, have a powder charge and ball in the barrel or cylinder before it is deemed "loaded," again a definition which is consistent with the common meaning of the term "loaded," i.e., ready for firing.You're certainly free to take up the interpretation of Clark with your favorite lawyer, but pending that action, dogmatism on the literal meaning of 12031(g) seems to me to be misplaced.

FreedomIsNotFree
05-18-2006, 11:18 PM
Clark referred to Heffner, true - but the Clark case was about a shotgun with the rounds in a butt storage area. Clark is quite clear that You're certainly free to take up the interpretation of Clark with your favorite lawyer, but pending that action, dogmatism on the literal meaning of 12031(g) seems to me to be misplaced.

OK.....transport your clips/mags unloaded...I dont care....

Clear comprehension of the english language and being that I have researched this extensively, brings me to only one conclusion......There is NO law against having a loaded clip/mag.

The only thing you have proven is you can convolute an issue with irrelevant case law. There is nothing dogmatic about it.

five.five-six
05-19-2006, 12:11 AM
it is so ezy.. i just make two trips to the range, one with the ammo and one with the gun. I just have to make sure I shoot all my ammo so i only have to make one trip home

you guys make things so complicated!!!

Librarian
05-19-2006, 10:15 AM
OK.....transport your clips/mags unloaded...I dont care....

Clear comprehension of the english language and being that I have researched this extensively, brings me to only one conclusion......There is NO law against having a loaded clip/mag.

The only thing you have proven is you can convolute an issue with irrelevant case law. There is nothing dogmatic about it.

Sorry - I never said a loaded magazine was illegal - I have no idea how you got that impression; I have, in fact, often posted here that I was certain it is not.

I was responding to your post suggesting that the irrational interpretation of 'loaded' created by the literal interpretation of 12031(g) was current;In regards to the shotgun side-saddle the law is clear. It may not be attached IN ANY MANNER to the firearm.

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.


Seems pretty cut and dry to me. It has been modified by perfectly on-point case law in Clark, precisely specific to the side-saddle issue, to something that is reasonable: a weapon is not loaded unless the ammunition is in a position to be fired.

FreedomIsNotFree
05-19-2006, 2:03 PM
my bad.....I had you mixed up with someone else.....:)

five.five-six
12-01-2006, 12:07 AM
ok just to get it strait.. in the case of transporting a handgun, the mags have to be unloaded and the ammo has to be locked?

EBWhite
12-01-2006, 12:16 AM
No, the mags can be loaded. they cannot be attached in any way to the handgun.
The handgun must be in a locked container though.

While transporting my handgun to the range, friends place, etc. I put in in a locked soft case in the front door panel slot. I leave a loaded mag in the console. Perfectly legal.

Joe
12-01-2006, 12:18 AM
ok just to get it strait.. in the case of transporting a handgun, the mags have to be unloaded and the ammo has to be locked?

If transporting a handgun:
1)It must be in plane view(not smart) and the ammo locked up.

2)Or if concealed it must be in a locked box with the ammo in a seperate container. The trunk is a locked box but the glove compartment is not.

I do not believe it matters if the magazines are loaded or unloaded, but if loaded they must be stored with the rest of the ammo outside of the locked box which contains the handgun.

Matt C
12-01-2006, 1:30 AM
FYI it is a grey area as to loaded mags being illegal. People HAVE been arrested for it(I think m14guy on this forum is one of them). So if you do that be aware you may end up with a loaded gun charge and, depending on where you live, it may stick. Bottom line, if you want to do it that way just carry a revolver with a speed loader or a rifle that take stripper clips. Both are 100% legal and you don't really lose to much tactical wise.

CalNRA
12-01-2006, 1:33 AM
Man, not this topic again.

If not for the hair-pulling cops out there, I would breathe a little easier, but I am a dreamer....

FreedomIsNotFree
12-01-2006, 1:42 AM
FYI it is a grey area as to loaded mags being illegal. People HAVE been arrested for it(I think m14guy on this forum is one of them). So if you do that be aware you may end up with a loaded gun charge and, depending on where you live, it may stick. Bottom line, if you want to do it that way just carry a revolver with a speed loader or a rifle that take stripper clips. Both are 100% legal and you don't really lose to much tactical wise.

Unless you are a gang member it is completely legal to have a loaded magazine/clip as long as it is not attached to the firearm. All you have to do is read the law....

12031 (g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

Matt C
12-01-2006, 1:50 AM
I have read the law... This issue is that the magazine can be considered part of the firearm, which in an autoloader it is. Also there is some case law interpreting the "intent" of the law which also falls toward the illegal side. As usual vauge and poorly worded CA laws are open to interpretation, if you feel safe doing it than go ahead, but please don't tell someone it's "completely legal" unless you are a lawyer and willing to defend that person at trial for free if they get popped.

Unless you are a gang member it is completely legal to have a loaded magazine/clip as long as it is not attached to the firearm. All you have to do is read the law....

12031 (g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

FreedomIsNotFree
12-01-2006, 2:18 AM
I have read the law... This issue is that the magazine can be considered part of the firearm, which in an autoloader it is. Also there is some case law interpreting the "intent" of the law which also falls toward the illegal side. As usual vauge and poorly worded CA laws are open to interpretation, if you feel safe doing it than go ahead, but please don't tell someone it's "completely legal" unless you are a lawyer and willing to defend that person at trial for free if they get popped.

I disagree. I have read the law and I am unaware of any case law which speaks to "intent" of legislature. The law is actually quite clear and spelled out....not vague at all. If you could cite the cases which addressed "intent" I would love to read them.

Lets analyze the law for a moment together....

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

I think this spells out the law quite clearly. The clip/magazine is either loaded or NOT loaded. If it IS loaded, it can NOT be attached in any manner to the firearm. If it is NOT loaded then it cant be loaded and therefor CAN be attached to the firearm. Where/what is the "intent"?

kantstudien
12-01-2006, 3:59 AM
Guys, it is easy. Just get your CCW and you can transport your handguns any condition you want!

CalNRA
12-01-2006, 4:15 AM
Guys, it is easy. Just get your CCW and you can transport your handguns any condition you want!

:rolleyes:

I'm glad your area is shall-issue

Hunter
12-01-2006, 6:37 AM
So much misinformation. So little time. Here's the basics on transporting firearms:

........Side note: while you can transport a pistol in an unlocked container provided it's in a locked trunk, you're violating the law once you take it out of the trunk and hand carry it anywhere.


This ONLY applies if the handgun is concealed, (ie. must be in a locked case; or have CCW; or going hunting/fishing). If it is in the open, unloaded, then it is not illegal.

Aluisious
12-01-2006, 6:40 AM
no, for example, guns can be in the trunk and the ammo can be in the car in a bag, no lock required. If the gun and ammo are in the same compartment (trunk for example), then one of them needs to be locked separate from the other (e.g. ammo in a locked bag, or the guns in a locked case).
I put my guns in the trunk and my ammo in a bag in the passenger seat behind me.

Don't put the ammo in magazines or you could have loaded weapons in the passenger compartment :P

FreedomIsNotFree
12-01-2006, 7:07 AM
I put my guns in the trunk and my ammo in a bag in the passenger seat behind me.

Don't put the ammo in magazines or you could have loaded weapons in the passenger compartment :P

Uhh...loaded mags/clips are NOT considered loaded weapons....again, they can be loaded as long as they are not attached to the firearm in any manner. Amazing how peoples opinions are shaped by misinformation...even with the law spelled out and quoted, people still believe what they want to.

Mike 56
12-02-2006, 8:59 PM
No wonder no one can agree on this topic i asked a lot of LEOs how should i transport firearms and ammo. I have never gotten the same answer twice. Now i carry a copy of Summary Of CA Gun Laws by CA Rifle & Pistol ***. That way if i get pulled over by a LEO i can show them the regs. Concealed handguns, assault weapons and 50 BMG must in a locked container when in transport other than a glove box. A trunk of a car is a locked container. You do not have to carry your ammo in a locked container and you can carry ammo in the same compartment as the firearm as long as it is not attached to the firearm in any way. You can not carry a handgun in a locked container for self-defence. You can only transport a handgun to specific places going hunting to or from the range without a concealed weapons permit. Mike

M. Sage
12-03-2006, 7:31 AM
I don't know about here, but some states consider a handgun to be concealed once you take it into a car with you. "Open carry" is restricted in this state anyway, you can't do it in incorporated areas, etc. etc. etc., and only when the planets are properly aligned or something.

For those saying you have to case or even cover (non-AW) long guns, there is nothing in the law about having to do this. There's no such thing (that I've ever found), in CA law, as a "concealed" rifle or shotgun.

I do, however, transport mine in a case, since the only place I can carry my Mosin is behind my seats (Miata), so that I don't scare all the yuppies into calling 911 with their Bluetooth headsets or whatever.

Mike 56
12-03-2006, 8:10 AM
Yes it legal to transport a unloaded rifle, shotgun non AW uncased and you may carry ammo in a unlocked container in the same compartment as long as it is not attached to firearms. When crossing state lines you may transport unloaded firearms and ammo for any lawful purpose. Firearms and ammo can not both be accessible in the passenger compartment. If you are driving a vehicle without a trunk. Your ammo or firearm must be in a locked container other than center counsel or glove box. Now i have question are you supposed transport a black power pistol the same way you transport any other handgun? Mike

M. Sage
12-03-2006, 8:18 AM
Yes it legal to transport a unloaded rifle, shotgun non AW uncased and you may carry ammo in a unlocked container in the same compartment as long as it is not attached to firearms. When crossing state lines you may transport unloaded firearms and ammo for any lawful purpose. Firearms and ammo can not both be accessible in the passenger compartment. If you are driving a vehicle without a trunk. Your ammo or firearm must be in a locked container other than center counsel or glove box.

Wait, what? You can carry an uncased rifle/shotgun (non AW) on your lap with ammo sitting on the dash. There is no container requirement for ammunition. It can be rolling around loose on your floorboards if you want. That's perfectly legal. Or do you mean you need to case and separate to cross state lines?

If you cross state lines, check the NRAILA site for rules of the state you're traveling into/through.

Mike 56
12-03-2006, 8:43 AM
There is no prohibition in the state codes against also carrying ammunition within the same motor vehicle or wihin the same copartment of a motor vehicle, as long as the fireams are not loded ammunition is not attached in any manner to the firearm. Sections 12025,12026,1231P.C. Mike

M. Sage
12-03-2006, 9:32 AM
I know. My issue is mainly with this statement.

Firearms and ammo can not both be accessible in the passenger compartment.

There is no such restriction on non-AW long guns. Only handguns and registered AWs have to be inaccessible (locked up).

Mike 56
12-03-2006, 9:48 AM
Or ammo or firearms are ia locked container. Thats only when you are crossing state lines with firearms. Mike

Aluisious
12-03-2006, 9:52 AM
NO NO NO. put your loaded magazines on your dash and your gun in your lap. Perfectly legal.....

Maybe not wise if you get pulled over but you are still legal.

ammo does not need to be locked...

Now, handguns and AW still need to be locked.
This is bad advice EB, loaded magazines are considered a loaded weapon in the law.

Answer to the OP: No, you do not have to lock your ammo. I never do. Put your ammo in a bag in the passenger compartment and the guns in the trunk, and you will be fine.

M. Sage
12-03-2006, 10:04 AM
Or ammo or firearms are ia locked container. Thats only when you are crossing state lines with firearms. Mike

I couldn't understand what you meant, so I Googled it. Here's the page I turned up:

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/FederalGunLaws.aspx?ID=59

A provision of federal law serves as a defense to state or local laws which would prohibit the passage of persons with firearms in interstate travel.

If you're traveling through an area with over-the-top restrictions on firearms, like NYC, you adhere to this as a "bare minimum" type of thing. If you're traveling through, say, Arizona, feel free to stop across the border, unlock your pistol, load it and toss it in the glove box.... or just a holster on the seat next to you.

http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/AZSL.pdf

It is unlawful to carry a firearm concealed within the immediate control of any person in or on a means of transportation. This does not apply to firearms carried in a case, holster or scabbard in a means of transportation or a storage compartment, trunk, pack, luggage, or glove compartment of a means of transportation.

hoffmang
12-03-2006, 10:39 AM
And it is time for me to post this for the 4th time in the last 30 days. Granted it doesn't address handguns specifically, but it is binding and shows that loaded magazines not attached to the weapon are not a loaded weapon. Otherwise the gang member with a loaded magazine language in the Penal Code would be redundant.

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/People-v-Clark-(1996).pdf

-Gene

FreedomIsNotFree
12-03-2006, 3:47 PM
I think this issue deserves a sticky...we seem to address this in detail on, at least, a monthly basis.

FreedomIsNotFree
12-03-2006, 4:07 PM
This is what I do with my handgun....I have it in a locked container, in my backpack, sitting on the passenger seat. The clip is loaded and zipped up in an inner pocket within the backpack. It takes me all of 10 seconds to access and load the gun...its as close as I can get to CCW without actually having it.

This is also a legal way to transport a handgun while on foot.

I'm sure some of you are asking yourselves...."He must have a reason for transporting his handgun in order for it to be legal...like a range..etc..etc." Well, you are correct.....I'm always using one of the "etc..etc..which in all actuality is "any legal purpose"....there are countless....

Here is the actual code...

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted
classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.



12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(1) The possession of a firearm by an authorized participant in a
motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment
event when the participant lawfully uses the firearm as part of that
production or event or while going directly to, or coming directly
from, that production or event.
(2) The possession of a firearm in a locked container by a member
of any club or organization, organized for the purpose of lawfully
collecting and lawfully displaying pistols, revolvers, or other
firearms, while the member is at meetings of the clubs or
organizations or while going directly to, and coming directly from,
those meetings.
(3) The transportation of a firearm by a participant when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a recognized safety or hunter
safety class, or a recognized sporting event involving that firearm.

(4) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 directly between any of the places mentioned in Section 12026.

(5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or
private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or
the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.
(6) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 when going directly from the place where that person lawfully
received that firearm to that person's place of residence or place of
business or to private property owned or lawfully possessed by that
person.
(7) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show, swap meet, or
similar event to which the public is invited, for the purpose of
displaying that firearm in a lawful manner.
(8) The transportation of a firearm by an authorized employee or
agent of a supplier of firearms when going directly to, or coming
directly from, a motion picture, television, or video production or
entertainment event for the purpose of providing that firearm to an
authorized participant to lawfully use as a part of that production
or event.
(9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a
regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing
shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.
(10) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a place designated by a person
authorized to issue licenses pursuant to Section 12050 when done at
the request of the issuing agency so that the issuing agency can
determine whether or not a license should be issued to that person to
carry that firearm.
(11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for
the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal
protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be
construed to override the statutory authority granted to the
Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local
governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing
the administration of parks and campgrounds.
(12) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with subdivision (c) or (i) of Section 12078 as it pertains to
that firearm.
(13) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
utilize subdivision (l) of Section 12078 as it pertains to that
firearm.
(14) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show or event, as defined
in Section 478.100 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations,
for the purpose of lawfully transferring, selling, or loaning that
firearm in accordance with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.
(15) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
utilize paragraph (6) of subdivision (a) of Section 12078 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(16) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the
firearm in order to comply with Article 1 (commencing with Section
2080) of Chapter 4 of Division 3 of the Civil Code as it pertains to
that firearm and if that firearm is being transported to a law
enforcement agency, the person gives prior notice to the law
enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to the
law enforcement agency.
(17) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(18) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the
firearm and is transporting it to a law enforcement agency for
disposition according to law, if he or she gives prior notice to the
law enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to
the law enforcement agency for disposition according to law.
(19) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with paragraph (3) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(20) The transportation of a firearm by a person for the purpose
of obtaining an identification number or mark assigned for that
firearm from the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12092.
(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this
chapter.
(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.


Basically, you can have it at ANY time of the day or night wjen loaning it to a friend or taking it to a friends hoouse for repair. I always have friends that want to borrow my handgun or smithing that can be done...

FreedomIsNotFree
12-03-2006, 4:17 PM
Did you know.......if you are placing someone under citizens arrest you can have a loaded firearm, even a handgun, while performing the arrest? And thats for misdemeanors as well as felonies.

If you use the law completely, you actually have quite a bit of freedom in a constrained system.

AJD
12-03-2006, 6:59 PM
Does a hatchback car count as a trunk? My 99 Camaro sort of has a trunk, but I've always wondered if that would be considered a trunk according to the law and if that would be a legal way to transport handguns that are not locked. I guess I should just transport them in a locked container to be 100% sure.

M. Sage
12-03-2006, 7:41 PM
No. That only applies to trunks that can't be accessed from inside the vehicle. I'd guess that 60/40 fold-down rear seats are a no-no, too.

They want you to have to unlock something to reach the pistol or AW. I'm guessing hitting the "unlock" button (or pulling the lever, in my case) for your trunk counts as "unlocking" it? Meh.