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Paladin
05-14-2006, 7:47 AM
I came across an article that has caused me not to take a position on the OC sheriff's race.

"Gun Permit Not Easy to Come By" http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2005/03/16/sections/local/local_columns/article_444594.php

(open quote)
Last year [2004], the Orange County Sheriff's Department processed just 511 applications for CCW permits, of which 472 were ultimately approved - with most of them going to reserve police officers, judges, prosecutors, people who transport large sums of cash, and others who could demonstrate a clear and immediate need to carry a firearm for protection. With the permits good for just two years, the total number of active CCWs issued by the Sheriff's Department is under 1,000 - this out of a county population of more than 3 million people.

In fact, people who believe that having guns in the hands of well-trained and law-abiding citizens decreases crime, as opposed to increasing it, wish there were more permits issued, not fewer of them.

"I would have expected (the number of applications) to be a lot more than it is," says Evan Carolyn of Evan's Gunsmithing and Shooter's World in Orange, who served as an adviser to Carona on his CCW policy and procedures. "I don't think enough people are applying at this time."

That may be partly because a lot of people aren't even aware that they can apply for a permit.

But it's mostly because the state-mandated vetting process is extremely intense, requiring 16 hours of training at the applicant's expense, an in-depth background check that takes months to complete, annual inspection of the firearms, numerous forms and fees. An applicant may even be required to undergo a psychiatric exam by a county-approved shrink. And in the end, the Sheriff's Department has the final say on whether you get a permit; under state law, a CCW permit is a privilege, not a right.
(close quote)

As you can see in 2004 Corona approved just over 92% of the applications. With such a high approval rate, why didn't more people in conservative OC apply ( www.ocsd.org/ccwpermit )? It seems like there are two reasons: (1) lack of awareness that CA is May Issue and (2) state mandated requirements.

IMO, the NRA, GOC, and others (Calguns.net, CaliforniaCCW.org) need to encourage all their members (and their friends & family) in all "permissive" counties to apply in order to consolidate our gains in permissive counties and to expand CCW issuance in CA. That attacks the lack of publicity bottleneck. The other bottleneck due to the state mandated requirements will not be improved for some years, I'm sad to say.

Since Carona approved over 92% of the CCW apps in 2004, OC seems to have already been won. The problem is that not enough OC residents are applying. That's why there's only 1,200 permits have been issued in a county of 3,000,000. If Carona wins, OC will have a proven pro-CCW sheriff. If Hunt wins, he says he'll be pro-CCW. If either Carona or Hunt wins, OC will just need to get the word out to gun shops, gun clubs, ranges, etc that more than 9 out of 10 applicants were approved in 2004.

There's just three weeks until the election. We need to focus our resources for political change where change is really needed -- LAC.

tenpercentfirearms
05-14-2006, 7:55 AM
But it's mostly because the state-mandated vetting process is extremely intense, requiring 16 hours of training at the applicant's expense, an in-depth background check that takes months to complete, annual inspection of the firearms, numerous forms and fees. An applicant may even be required to undergo a psychiatric exam by a county-approved shrink. And in the end, the Sheriff's Department has the final say on whether you get a permit; under state law, a CCW permit is a privilege, not a right.I thought it was 8 hours for the intial course, no one has ever, ever inspected my firearms, and no one has ever even mentioned a psychiatric exam. Where are they getting this info?

johnny_22
05-14-2006, 8:09 AM
Alameda County requires the psychological testing. The law reads up to 16 hours for training. From your experience OC requires less than the maximum allowed by law.

marklbucla
05-14-2006, 8:42 AM
Where are they getting this info?


From the people who have done it themselves. That's what I had to do for my permit.

I totally agree with the writer, and have said the same things in response to the whole election. I thought the OC was already shall issue. Sure, it could be less than $200 for the application and the class could be cheaper, but then again, it does come pretty close to the general cost of living comparison.

Kruzr
05-14-2006, 9:09 AM
I thought it was 8 hours for the intial course, no one has ever, ever inspected my firearms, and no one has ever even mentioned a psychiatric exam. Where are they getting this info?
It's 16 hours in OC and all the guns to be listed on the permit must be inspected by the Sheriff's Dept. in OC. You can list 3 guns on the permit. You "qualify" with each of them.

kantstudien
05-14-2006, 1:22 PM
And each handgun must have a trigger pull of 4.5lbs or more.

50 Freak
05-14-2006, 11:26 PM
It comes down to this.

Most people are don't like to gamble. Why would they pay for 16 hours of training (cost something like $300 buck???), go through background and pscyological tests. Then pay $200 bucks just to apply on the slight chance they may get a CCW?

You forget where we live. CA is not the most friendly gun loving state out there. Most police chiefs are not willing to grant CCW's to those not in the "elite" class (ex LEOs, judges, major politcal contributers).

Now if you returned the $200 bucks if the application is not approved, you will see application rates skyrocket.

And each handgun must have a trigger pull of 4.5lbs or more.

Where is that rule? It was not one of my CCW requirements?

gmcem50
05-14-2006, 11:33 PM
It comes down to this.

Most people are don't like to gamble. Why would they pay for 16 hours of training (cost something like $300 buck???), go through background and pscyological tests. Then pay $200 bucks just to apply on the slight chance they may get a CCW?

You forget where we live. CA is not the most friendly gun loving state out there. Most police chiefs are not willing to grant CCW's to those not in the "elite" class (ex LEOs, judges, major politcal contributers).

Now if you returned the $200 bucks if the application is not approved, you will see application rates skyrocket.




It doesn't cost anything to apply; I submitted my application 6 weeks ago and as of yet have not paid a penny to the SD. They tell you if you are approved to proceed to the DOJ background check or not before you have to pay anything. You don't take (or pay for) the training until AFTER you are approved.

50 Freak
05-14-2006, 11:38 PM
They must do it differently down there. When I applied for mine, I submitted a check along with a certificate showing I went through 8 or 16 (don't remember which) hours of training.

Waited five months before I even knew if I was approved or not. But trust me, they cashed that check for $200 in less than one week.

marklbucla
05-15-2006, 12:31 AM
Having that stuff in already can help, but it's not necessary to have the class, etc. first.

kantstudien
05-15-2006, 1:00 AM
You don't pay for anything up front in OC, you apply first. If you are accepted, then you do the training and fork over the bucks.

CalNRA
05-15-2006, 1:06 AM
Alameda County requires the psychological testing. The law reads up to 16 hours for training. From your experience OC requires less than the maximum allowed by law.

the more strict rule about Alameda county is that you also have to have an one-million insurance rider on your homeowner/business owner's policy. SO people who don't currently own a home are denied the possibility of that "priviledge" of self-protection. 600 dollars is also a lot of money for most people who work for a living. Essentially the whole discretionary system is designed so only the rich can obtain the permits.

Paladin
05-15-2006, 6:50 AM
and no one has ever even mentioned a psychiatric exam. Where are they getting this info?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/04/30/BA268108.DTL
(open quote)
But Alameda County Sheriff Charlie Plummer, whose office currently has 137 concealed-weapons permits on file -- down from 150 in 2000 -- says simply being "a law-abiding citizen" doesn't cut it in his county.

"I have some good friends who are law-abiding, but they also have hair- trigger tempers," Plummer said.

As a result, Plummer said he has some rules for issuing permits -- like showing a "real need."

Most notable of those with a "real need" is state senator and gun control advocate Don Perata, who has had one for years because of reported threats against him.

<snip>

One other thing. Plummer said he requires every applicant to see "a psychiatrist of my choosing -- and they pay for it."
(close quote)

Paladin
05-15-2006, 7:25 AM
They must do it differently down there.
50 Freak, you found out very quickly (in less than 10 min), something else about "where we live" -- that a whole lot of the process is set at the local level. That's why CA needed, and less than a month ago got, a new forum dedicated to exclusively to CCW issues in CA, www.CaliforniaCCW.org

CaliforniaCCW.org needs you to post your experiences in getting a CCW in the thread dedicated to your county, just like we need gmcem50 (and everyone else w/a CA CCW) to post their experiences in their counties. We also need to know anything unusual about your apps and your "good cause" statements (you're ex-military/MP, you reg carry large amounts of $$$, etc), that might not apply to the Avg Joe/Jane. (But don't put anything that might identify you.) That way everyone in every county will know their odds given their background.

We also need to know any "quirks" that the issuing authority requires (e.g., Plummer in Alameda Co. requires you to pay for a psychiatrist (usu more expensive than a psychologist) of his choosing ("favors for friends"/kickbacks/other?) and even then you may be rejected.

Plus everyone will know which sheriffs are allowing citizens to defend themselves and which sheriffs are treating their county's residents as subjects. Thus members can start putting political pressure on these "politicians who carry badges & guns" to change their policies.

GTKrockeTT
05-15-2006, 8:18 AM
time to move to the OC.

ivorykid
05-15-2006, 8:22 AM
...most of them going to reserve police officers, judges, prosecutors, people who transport large sums of cash, and others who could demonstrate a clear and immediate need to carry a firearm for protection.

This would be my only excuse for not having applied. What is my "clear and immediate need?" I'm a youngin' (mid-twenties), don't have much money, live in a very safe neighborhood, haven't established any enemies, etc. It seems that the average Joe doesn't meet the basic requirement for issuance - clear an immediate need. If you know that you are going to be declined, why bother? I know, I HATE that argument, but what do you expect? That is the mentality, conscious or not, of lots of people.

Do the numbers in that article represent all applicants, including the initial application, which tells you whether or not you are allowed to officially apply (take the course, get interviewed, etc, etc)? I am somewhat sceptical of this. I would bet that more people actually submitted the initial application, but were rejected, and that doesn't count as an "application/rejection" in the article because that's not the final application? Could be a stretch, but I don't trust ANY statistic I read in ANY newspaper.

gmcem50
05-15-2006, 8:30 AM
time to move to the OC.

Bring lots of cash; real estate prices have effectively eliminated most from OC. If I hadn't purchased my house when I did, I would be locked out forever. It has tripled in value in 6 years.

..just like we need gmcem50 (and everyone else w/a CA CCW) to post their experiences in their counties...

Believe me, when the process is complete, I will lay it all out here in excruciating detail.

GTKrockeTT
05-15-2006, 8:34 AM
Bring lots of cash; real estate prices have effectively eliminated most from OC. If I hadn't purchased my house when I did, I would be locked out forever. It has tripled in value in 6 years.


it's not going to be much more than where i currently live. ;)

Paladin
05-15-2006, 12:42 PM
This would be my only excuse for not having applied. What is my "clear and immediate need?" I'm a youngin' (mid-twenties), don't have much money, live in a very safe neighborhood, haven't established any enemies, etc. It seems that the average Joe doesn't meet the basic requirement for issuance - clear an immediate need. If you know that you are going to be declined, why bother? I know, I HATE that argument, but what do you expect? That is the mentality, conscious or not, of lots of people.

Read http://californiaccw.org/posts/list/15.page and http://californiaccw.org/posts/list/109.page

You're probably too young to remember what LA was like during the Rodney King riots, but I'm sure you remember New Orleans after Katrina. The lack of response by the authorities w/Katrina, where the fed, state, and local govts had, literally, a week's worth of notice to prepare, lets you imagine how things will be in So. Cal after a MAJOR earthquake strikes w/zero notice.

IMO, part of the civic and moral duty of being an adult man is being willing and able to defend yourself, your family and innocent victims of violent crimes. In this day and age, that means getting a CCW if you can. You never know when you'll need a CCW. You might just be droping by your local AutoZone for an oil filter when you stumble upon a crime being committed ( http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=4527526 ). If you knew you would need a gun when you went somewhere, you'd either not go or you'd bring a rifle.

Do the numbers in that article represent all applicants, including the initial application, which tells you whether or not you are allowed to officially apply (take the course, get interviewed, etc, etc)? I am somewhat sceptical of this. I would bet that more people actually submitted the initial application, but were rejected, and that doesn't count as an "application/rejection" in the article because that's not the final application? Could be a stretch, but I don't trust ANY statistic I read in ANY newspaper.

These are GREAT questions to ask the author of that article, Gordon Dillow. He put his email address at the beginning and the end of the article (GLDillow@aol.com). He even gave his phone number: (714) 796-7953. Plus, since your are a resident of OC and of voting age, you should contact Sheriff Carona's office, your elected sheriff. If you went to the SD's CCW website that I listed ( http://www.ocsd.org/ccwpermit/ ), you saw they list an email address for submitting questions ( CCWPermits@ocsd.org ). They would be another, and even better, source for answers to your questions. We all look forward to seeing what you find out. Be sure to post over at CaliforniaCCW.org too.

ivorykid
05-17-2006, 10:06 AM
These are GREAT questions to ask the author of that article, Gordon Dillow...

I emailed the author to ask my question regarding the statistics. Here is his response:



Thank you for the message. It's been a while, but as I recall the figure on applications was of those that had gone through the entire vetting process. I was told anecdotally that many would-be applicants gave up when told how lengthy and difficult the process was.
Hope that helps.

Best,
Gordon Dillow
OC Register


I submitted my question to the OCSD as well. I am still waiting for their response.