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gschoelles
09-06-2010, 2:53 PM
I was at the range Saturday and while picking up my brass found some .38 supers. I reflected a bit and looked up the characteristics for this cartridge and just don't understand why it's not more popular. It looks more powerful than a .40, and less than a 10mm which I would think to be an excellent crossover gun.

Thoughts or explanations?

OneSevenDeuce
09-06-2010, 2:55 PM
It looks more powerful than a .40, and less than a 10mm

What do you mean by powerful? And how do you know this by looking at the brass?

ke6guj
09-06-2010, 3:15 PM
I was at the range Saturday and while picking up my brass found some .38 supers. I reflected a bit and looked up the characteristics for this cartridge and just don't understand why it's not more popular. It looks more powerful than a .40, and less than a 10mm which I would think to be an excellent crossover gun.

Thoughts or explanations?

What do you mean by powerful? And how do you know this by looking at the brass?he said he looked up the specs, he didn't just look at the brass and decide that .38super was more powerful than .40S&W.



Both cartridges are in the same range of "power" with energy being in the 400-500 ft-lbs, depending on the load.

As for why it isn't more popular, the .38super round is semi-rimmed, which makes feeding from a mag more difficult than a rimless round.

OneSevenDeuce
09-06-2010, 3:19 PM
he said he looked up the specs

Still doesn't make sense to me. A lot of people manufacture .38 super. Who's specs did you look up? What made you think it was a more "powerful" round?

Colt
09-06-2010, 3:20 PM
Well, he said he looked up the specs...

Anyway, I think .38 Super was popular with the feds during the gangster era - the Colt 1911 was chambered with this cartridge to shoot through windshields and such. Don't know a lot about it - but some folks seem to love it.

OneSevenDeuce
09-06-2010, 3:21 PM
Well, he said he looked up the specs...


WHAT specs?

Colt
09-06-2010, 3:26 PM
Google it - lots of info...

OneSevenDeuce
09-06-2010, 3:27 PM
Google it - lots of info...

You don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that a lot of people make .38 super. Their specifications can vary widely. To say that someone looked up the "specs" doesn't mean anything.

Mssr. Eleganté
09-06-2010, 3:30 PM
...To say that someone looked up the "specs" doesn't mean anything.

I'm guessing that he looked up the muzzle energy of various loadings of .40 S&W, .38 Super and 10mm and noticed a trend.

OneSevenDeuce
09-06-2010, 3:32 PM
I'm guessing that he looked up the muzzle energy of various loadings of .40 S&W, .38 Super and 10mm and noticed a trend.

Now that answer makes some sense.

Sailormilan2
09-06-2010, 3:46 PM
The 38 Super has never had a sterling reputation for accuracy. Unfortunately, this is due to the design of the case and chamber. The case, for some reason, was designed as a semi rimmed case, and then the chamber was designed to have the cartridge head space on the rim. Due to manurfacturing tolerances, often times the rim didn't do its job, and accuracy suffered.
Reportedly, new Colt made barrels(and probably some after market ones) have a redesigned chamber, where the case headspaces on the case mouth. Like the 45 acp.
Another issue I have heard, is that many of the older barrels are .357 barrels, but most bullets loaded for the 38 Super are .355(9mm bullets). I think this is partly due to the 9mm bullets being designed to work in a semi auto, especially the hollow point bullets. The Colt 2 piece feed ramp really doesn't lend it self well to feeding exposed lead hollow point bullets unless there is a bit of polishing done to the ramp.
On the old style barrels the rim headspaces at a "notch" or ledge cut in the chamber hood, the extension at the rear of the chamber.
I have been looking for a new style barrel for my 38 Super Commander for some time now. All the replacement barrels I find are the old style.

BigJB
09-06-2010, 4:02 PM
The Soooper rules in Mexico

BigDogatPlay
09-06-2010, 4:39 PM
The Soooper rules in Mexico

Because los hombres can not legally possess anything that shoots .45 ACP or 9mm.

The Super was hard pressed for many years to be accurate as it was most often headspaced on the case rim. Manufacturers have moved to headspacing on the case mouth, as noted above, and that has helped a great deal.

.38 Super found it's legs in the IPSC movement of the 70's and 80's as it was the only sub .45 caliber cartridge commonly available that could be loaded to meet Col. Cooper's major caliber power factor. It shoots a lot like a 9 in a well set up gun, and gave enough power to not handicap a competitor.

psango
09-06-2010, 6:21 PM
Because los hombres can not legally possess anything that shoots .45 ACP or 9mm.

The Super was hard pressed for many years to be accurate as it was most often headspaced on the case rim. Manufacturers have moved to headspacing on the case mouth, as noted above, and that has helped a great deal.

.38 Super found it's legs in the IPSC movement of the 70's and 80's as it was the only sub .45 caliber cartridge commonly available that could be loaded to meet Col. Cooper's major caliber power factor. It shoots a lot like a 9 in a well set up gun, and gave enough power to not handicap a competitor.

Yep that pretty much sums it up!

I have a Sig P220, and Springfield 1911 in 38 Super. They will be less practical to have if the mail order ammo ban goes into effect.

I don't reload, and to find ammo I have to order it online. Most stores in my area don't stock it regularly. I've had a super of one sort or another since 1968. I guess it's the nostalgia factor that has kept me shooting them.

Sig Sauer P220 38 Super c.1994
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy107/psango/SigP220/38s-1.jpg

Springfield 1911A1 Mil-Spec. 38 Super c.2004
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy107/psango/1911-38sup/DSC_0013.jpg

Colt
09-06-2010, 9:49 PM
You don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that a lot of people make .38 super. Their specifications can vary widely. To say that someone looked up the "specs" doesn't mean anything.

I do understand - look at various manufacturers and other sites - I assume that's what OP did.

El Gato
09-06-2010, 9:57 PM
LOVE the super... just missed buying one this week... have had a springer on order for two years next month...

try corbon 125 gr... for some power...

psango
09-06-2010, 10:23 PM
An interesting 38 Super website:
http://www.38super.net/

Army GI
09-06-2010, 10:52 PM
I was at the range Saturday and while picking up my brass found some .38 supers. I reflected a bit and looked up the characteristics for this cartridge and just don't understand why it's not more popular. It looks more powerful than a .40, and less than a 10mm which I would think to be an excellent crossover gun.

Thoughts or explanations?

I agree, the .38 Super should more popular than it is. It is the equivalent of a 9mm+p loading (depending on who makes it) and shooters flatter than the .45 ACP and punches just as hard.

I submit that the reason it isn't more popular is because it wasn't picked up by the US Army in the 30's when it was invented to replace the venerable .45 ACP.

9mmepiphany
09-06-2010, 11:30 PM
The .38 Super followed the .38ACP as basically a +P loading. the semi-rim and headspacing on that hurt it's consistent seating and reliability. it's length restricted it to .45 ACP length action, which limited its magazine capacity. I'm not sure the Super ever overcame it's early rep

It has always been popular south of the border where it is illegal to have guns chambered in military rounds. Llama and Star made many 1911 pattern pistols in this caliber...It was very popular with Chinese gangs in the early '70s

it's resurgence in IPSC was because of the advent of the double stacked polymer framed 1911 platforms for increase capacity and the ability to overload it, as opposed to the 9mm, to make the Major power factor level. plus the Super had the advantage of being a high pressure cartridge to maximize the effect of compensated pistols.

the closest direct competitor to the .38 Super is the 357 SIG round. the Super has the advantage of smaller diameter (more rounds in a 1911 mag), but it is still a longer cartridge (not as many wide bodies available)

a product improved version of the Super is the 9x23mm round (similar to Cooper's old 9mm Super, built on a cut down 5.56x45 case)...it is the same round without the rim. the 9x23mm feeds better and the case is a stronger design

Fantasma
09-07-2010, 2:12 AM
The .38 Super followed the .38ACP as basically a +P loading. the semi-rim and headspacing on that hurt it's consistent seating and reliability. it's length restricted it to .45 ACP length action, which limited its magazine capacity. I'm not sure the Super ever overcame it's early rep

It has always been popular south of the border where it is illegal to have guns chambered in military rounds. Llama and Star made many 1911 pattern pistols in this caliber...It was very popular with Chinese gangs in the early '70s

it's resurgence in IPSC was because of the advent of the double stacked polymer framed 1911 platforms for increase capacity and the ability to overload it, as opposed to the 9mm, to make the Major power factor level. plus the Super had the advantage of being a high pressure cartridge to maximize the effect of compensated pistols.

the closest direct competitor to the .38 Super is the 357 SIG round. the Super has the advantage of smaller diameter (more rounds in a 1911 mag), but it is still a longer cartridge (not as many wide bodies available)

a product improved version of the Super is the 9x23mm round (similar to Cooper's old 9mm Super, built on a cut down 5.56x45 case)...it is the same round without the rim. the 9x23mm feeds better and the case is a stronger design

.38 Super still owns... :D

nazgulnarsil
09-07-2010, 2:25 AM
You don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that a lot of people make .38 super. Their specifications can vary widely. To say that someone looked up the "specs" doesn't mean anything.

wow, aspergers much?

he probably meant that among the common factory loads some had more energy than common .40 factory loads.

J.D.Allen
09-07-2010, 9:51 AM
Because los hombres can not legally possess anything that shoots .45 ACP or 9mm.

Ummm...in Mexico los hombres cannot legally posses anything...(but they do anyway) I agree that this caliber is very popular there, but I'm not sure this is really the reason why...

B Strong
09-07-2010, 10:53 AM
I was at the range Saturday and while picking up my brass found some .38 supers. I reflected a bit and looked up the characteristics for this cartridge and just don't understand why it's not more popular. It looks more powerful than a .40, and less than a 10mm which I would think to be an excellent crossover gun.

Thoughts or explanations?

For us older guys, the Super is one of the must have calibers - for younger guys, not so much.

Used in the game type combat pistols they're very popular, but for a fighting pistol the round has been superseded by the 9 x 23 amongst the informed.

I own a few, love 'em, and will be keeping them.

ZOMBIEHUNTER
09-07-2010, 10:53 AM
I have had a 38 super for about two years and they are great guns.My colt is very accurate with a few brands but not so with Aguila 38 super.

BigJB
09-07-2010, 11:18 AM
Ummm...in Mexico los hombres cannot legally posses anything...(but they do anyway) I agree that this caliber is very popular there, but I'm not sure this is really the reason why...

They can own rifles, shotguns, pistols, but there are some screwy caliber limitations. .38 super is the most powerful pistol a Mexican can own. Provided they have necessary permits etc

Legal gun ownership is limited to the rich and influential basically

OneSevenDeuce
09-07-2010, 12:49 PM
Ummm...in Mexico los hombres cannot legally posses anything...(but they do anyway) I agree that this caliber is very popular there, but I'm not sure this is really the reason why...

Mexico is one of the few countries other than the U.S. that guarantees their citizens the right to bear arms. Unfortunately one of the restrictions they have is that citizens cannot own a firearm chambered in a military caliber.

OneSevenDeuce
09-07-2010, 12:52 PM
I do understand - look at various manufacturers and other sites - I assume that's what OP did.

I see a lot of assuming. And then, only after someone else did it for you first.

J.D.Allen
09-07-2010, 2:57 PM
Mexico is one of the few countries other than the U.S. that guarantees their citizens the right to bear arms. Unfortunately one of the restrictions they have is that citizens cannot own a firearm chambered in a military caliber.

Really? I will certainly have to inform my family that lives there of that...they're under the impression that they're verboten. You may be able to get a permit for a weapon if you have enough money for a bribe, but the average citizen is not allowed.

OneSevenDeuce
09-07-2010, 3:02 PM
Really? I will certainly have to inform my family that lives there of that...they're under the impression that they're verboten. You may be able to get a permit for a weapon if you have enough money for a bribe, but the average citizen is not allowed.

I believe it. Just because it's written into their constitution doesn't mean they have to make it easy to get. As we in California are well aware.

Colt-45
09-09-2010, 12:41 AM
They can own rifles, shotguns, pistols, but there are some screwy caliber limitations. .38 super is the most powerful pistol a Mexican can own. Provided they have necessary permits etc connections etc.

The highest caliber in handguns Mexicans can own is .380 and 38 special. For a long time 38 Super was not legal or ilegal, they'd catch you with one they confiscate it, no jail time. To date it's basically just a slap on the wrist, pay a big fine and you escape jail time.

It's a big time offense if they catch you with military calibers such as the .45acp, they catch you with .45acp and you go to jail.

PEZHEAD265
09-09-2010, 5:28 AM
An interesting 38 Super website:
http://www.38super.net/

If you check the foot notes on the bottom of the cartridge comp. they were measured out of a 4 inch 9mm and 5 inch 38 super,if it was done out of the same size barrels the stats would be alot closer.The 9 might be more powerful with the added velocity.

yotegetter
09-09-2010, 6:10 AM
I know of a guy in Mexico still in jail for the possession of a 38 Super barrel. Believe me, no firearm is of legal possession in Mexico, unless you're Carlos Slim.

Spyder
09-09-2010, 6:43 AM
You don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that a lot of people make .38 super. Their specifications can vary widely. To say that someone looked up the "specs" doesn't mean anything.

It means that the OP took it upon himself to do some research before coming here to ask a clarifying question about what he discovered. Instead of just popping in here and asking a random off the wall question, the OP attempted to educate himself first.

An admirable trait that would be nice, if it were more widely spread.

OneSevenDeuce
09-09-2010, 7:22 AM
It means that the OP took it upon himself to do some research before coming here to ask a clarifying question about what he discovered. Instead of just popping in here and asking a random off the wall question, the OP attempted to educate himself first.

An admirable trait that would be nice, if it were more widely spread.

A very optimistic assumption. Especially considering the OP hasn't spoken up on it, and in fact hasn't commented once on anything since the post was made.

D.M.C.
09-09-2010, 8:53 AM
A very optimistic assumption. Especially considering the OP hasn't spoken up on it, and in fact hasn't commented once on anything since the post was made.

Small wonder when you jumped on him without even clearly reading his entire post yourself. Way to go, helping newer members there, champ! :-)

OneSevenDeuce
09-09-2010, 12:55 PM
Small wonder when you jumped on him without even clearly reading his entire post yourself. Way to go, helping newer members there, champ! :-)

No one jumped on him. It was a question. Way to go internet hero... :rolleyes:

ke6guj
09-09-2010, 1:10 PM
No one jumped on him. It was a question. Way to go internet hero... :rolleyes:more than one person thought you jumped on him.

I thought that this part of your post was where you jumped on him.

What do you mean by powerful? And how do you know this by looking at the brass?

looked like you thought he just looked at the brass and decided that .38super was more powerful than .40S&W.

OneSevenDeuce
09-09-2010, 1:13 PM
looked like you thought he just looked at the brass and decided that .38super was more powerful than .40S&W.

I did. That's why I asked the question. The problem you are running into is that the internet is limited in it's capacity to express tone and emotion. I understand that you and others are well intentioned in your concerns, however you are all very wrong. I don't care how many people thought they knew what I was doing. All it means is that many people can be wrong at the same time.

realmswalker
09-09-2010, 2:04 PM
The way you posted, it sounded like you were kind of jumping on him also and were slightly rude about it, Especially to someone who is obviously new to the forum.

I was at the range Saturday and while picking up my brass found some .38 supers. I reflected a bit and looked up the characteristics for this cartridge and just don't understand why it's not more popular. It looks more powerful than a .40, and less than a 10mm which I would think to be an excellent crossover gun.

I thought it read pretty easily that after looking up the characteristics, it looked more powerful to him.

I think you thought he meant that based on the looks of the cartridge itself, it's more powerful, and not the statistics he looked up.

OneSevenDeuce
09-09-2010, 3:12 PM
The way you posted, it sounded like you were kind of jumping on him also and were slightly rude about it, Especially to someone who is obviously new to the forum.



I thought it read pretty easily that after looking up the characteristics, it looked more powerful to him.

I think you thought he meant that based on the looks of the cartridge itself, it's more powerful, and not the statistics he looked up.

I've addressed this already. I'm not going to address it again.

Colt-45
09-09-2010, 4:25 PM
I know of a guy in Mexico still in jail for the possession of a 38 Super barrel. Believe me, no firearm is of legal possession in Mexico, unless you're Carlos Slim.

He must not have a lot of money. If he did he wouldn't of even set foot in the jail cell.

D.M.C.
09-09-2010, 7:13 PM
I did. That's why I asked the question. The problem you are running into is that the internet is limited in it's capacity to express tone and emotion. I understand that you and others are well intentioned in your concerns, however you are all very wrong. I don't care how many people thought they knew what I was doing. All it means is that many people can be wrong at the same time.

So what you're saying is that you can't man up and admit you made a mistake and that everyone else must be wrong, and you're still right? Got it. No more needs to be said.

OneSevenDeuce
09-09-2010, 7:17 PM
So what you're saying is that you can't man up and admit you made a mistake and that everyone else must be wrong, and you're still right? Got it. No more needs to be said.

Uhhh, noooo. That is what is called building a "straw man" argument. You are assuming that I meant something that is impossible to defend which makes it easy for you to attack. What I AM saying is that my intent was misread. I'm not saying that what I said about the OP's post was correct or incorrect. I am simply arguing that I did not intend to be rude to the OP. See now?