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View Full Version : Adding a handgun/Pistol to a DROS for a Rifle, Possible?


M4John
09-06-2010, 9:26 AM
I bought a LWRC 16" REPR a few days ago and am in the midst of the 10 day waiting game. I know if I wanted to buy another rifle from the same shop I could add it to my DROS and not have to start a new 10 day wait. ( so long as I have not signed the line that says I have take possession of the first fire arm) I would be able to pick up both rifles at the end of the original purchase wait period. ( 240 hours and one second after DROS was submitted)
My question is, can I do the same if it were a pistol instead of the 2nd rifle in the scenario used above? Specifically Im looking to buy a LWRC M6A2 pistol.

So, if I go down to the gun shop where I bought the original rifle, can I add this pistol to the same DROS before I sign the "take possession" line and not have to start another DROS process?

All this assumes that I have not purchased another pistol in the last 30 days.

thanks in advance to your advice

halifax
09-06-2010, 9:31 AM
No. Handguns are registered by serial number. They require a separate DROS.

M4John
09-06-2010, 9:34 AM
No. Handguns are registered by serial number. They require a separate DROS.

I figured that would be the case, however I wanted to be sure....
Thanks for posting.

kemasa
09-06-2010, 2:32 PM
While some say otherwise, you can not add additional firearms after the long gun DROS is submitted (or the same day, depending on the view). Each firearm transaction has to be reported, which prevents adding a long gun to be added to a handgun DROS.

tenpercentfirearms
09-06-2010, 9:43 PM
While some say otherwise, you can not add additional firearms after the long gun DROS is submitted (or the same day, depending on the view). Each firearm transaction has to be reported, which prevents adding a long gun to be added to a handgun DROS.

Not true. I add long guns to customer's long gun DROSes all the time. You can do it, just some people don't think it is legal. Ask your dealer what he will or won't do.

However, you most certainly can do it.

jtmkinsd
09-06-2010, 9:44 PM
I always tell customer's...if you even think you're going to have another long gun delivered anytime close to the DROS you are doing, then tell me now and I will add the long gun to the DROS now...that way if it comes in...great, you are covered and you save $25...I have no problem crossing out the number of long guns DROS'd and writing in a smaller number...but I will NOT cross it out and write in a larger number.

tenpercentfirearms
09-07-2010, 5:45 AM
I always tell customer's...if you even think you're going to have another long gun delivered anytime close to the DROS you are doing, then tell me now and I will add the long gun to the DROS now...that way if it comes in...great, you are covered and you save $25...I have no problem crossing out the number of long guns DROS'd and writing in a smaller number...but I will NOT cross it out and write in a larger number.

Why not? Why would crossing out a higher number be anymore wrong than crossing out a lower number? The answer is if you cross out a lower number and make it higher, the state doesn't get as much money and they might say it is wrong. Yet they confirm it is ok to sell less guns.

Why not just start all DROSes with 99 as the number of long guns sold?

kemasa
09-07-2010, 10:44 AM
Wes and I have been through this before and while it can be done, it is not legal. Odds are that he will not get caught, but it could happen and it is just not worth the risk in my opinion.

jtmkinsd
09-07-2010, 11:42 AM
Why not? Why would crossing out a higher number be anymore wrong than crossing out a lower number? The answer is if you cross out a lower number and make it higher, the state doesn't get as much money and they might say it is wrong. Yet they confirm it is ok to sell less guns.

Why not just start all DROSes with 99 as the number of long guns sold?

Really it's just a personal preference...someone does DROS for 4 longuns and decides he/she doesn't want one or for whatever reason I don't have a problem crossing one or more off...but to just increase the number without technically letting DOJ know they're getting that extra gun gives me heartburn.

halifax
09-07-2010, 11:49 AM
Really it's just a personal preference...someone does DROS for 4 longuns and decides he/she doesn't want one or for whatever reason I don't have a problem crossing one or more off...but to just increase the number without technically letting DOJ know they're getting that extra gun gives me heartburn.

I can't seem to find anything in the law that says the state is required to keep track of the number of long guns. Seems to me it was just added to the DROS software as an "oh, why not" requirement.

I could be wrong though.

M4John
09-07-2010, 11:58 AM
Seems this got a bit off topic... Im not concerned with the ability to add another long gun to my long gun dros... I wanted to know if a pistol could be added... I think the original answer that i got was NO, because the hand gun needs to be registered and would require a seperate DROS from a rifel that would not need to be registered...
Am i correct there?
Thanks for all the input on this guys/gals!

halifax
09-07-2010, 12:00 PM
Seems this got a bit off topic... Im not concerned with the ability to add another long gun to my long gun dros... I wanted to know if a pistol could be added... I think the original answer that i got was NO, because the hand gun needs to be registered adn that is a seperate DROS from a rifel that would not need to be registered...
Am i correct there?

Yes, you are correct. The thread took a different turn after that answer.

kemasa
09-07-2010, 12:15 PM
There is nothing in the law regarding the DROS to require the number of firearms to be listed for longguns, but the law does specify what is a single firearm transaction and I suspect that asking for the number helps to document that. It needs to be a single transfer, loan or sale and while some might claim that the sale is when when it is days apart, that is just not the case.

M4John
09-07-2010, 12:21 PM
Thanks, just making sure I wasnt reading something else in to it all....

tenpercentfirearms
09-07-2010, 9:56 PM
Really it's just a personal preference...someone does DROS for 4 longuns and decides he/she doesn't want one or for whatever reason I don't have a problem crossing one or more off...but to just increase the number without technically letting DOJ know they're getting that extra gun gives me heartburn.
Why does it matter when the DOJ is supposed to purge long gun data after about 15 days? Second, how is that any different than you putting down four guns, but only selling one. If the DOJ cared, they would care both ways. The fact is, they don't care either way.

There is nothing in the law regarding the DROS to require the number of firearms to be listed for longguns, but the law does specify what is a single firearm transaction and I suspect that asking for the number helps to document that. It needs to be a single transfer, loan or sale and while some might claim that the sale is when when it is days apart, that is just not the case.

The problem is they do not define how long a single transaction lasts. Therefore, I define it as up to 30 days. Find the code that defines it otherwise. It doesn't exist.

And that there pretty much sums up this topic. The law does not define how long a single transaction lasts.

kemasa
09-08-2010, 11:36 AM
Wes, you can define the world to be flat, but that does not make it so. We have gone over this numerous times and you ignore the word "single" and Dealer Record of SALE. Doing two sales within thirty days is not a "single sale".

Personally, I think it is a mistake for you to promote such things and sooner or later it is likely to cost you, unless you are just telling others to do it and not doing it yourself, in which case there are other issues involved.

tenpercentfirearms
09-08-2010, 9:32 PM
Wes, you can define the world to be flat, but that does not make it so. We have gone over this numerous times and you ignore the word "single" and Dealer Record of SALE. Doing two sales within thirty days is not a "single sale".

Personally, I think it is a mistake for you to promote such things and sooner or later it is likely to cost you, unless you are just telling others to do it and not doing it yourself, in which case there are other issues involved.

Care to show some penal code or CCR that defines how long a sale lasts? I didn't think so. I don't do two sales in 30 days. I do one sale in 30 days. A single sale is not over until the customer signs the 4473. And that is only because the Feds say so. Technically the state does not terminate a sale until the end of 30 days. Actually, you could argue that the state terminates a sale when you put the delivery date and time on the DROS. That sounds reasonable. So a sale terminates when the delivery date/time is written or after 30 twenty-four hours periods, which ever comes first.

We know for a fact that I am not the only dealer that adds long guns to DROS. We have yet to hear of a single dealer being written up or shut down because we do so.

Do what you feel comfortable doing. It is what it is.

jtmkinsd
09-09-2010, 12:13 AM
I'd say call DOJ for an opinion, but I think their auto-response would be no, don't do it...either way, up or down. But there is no real language that prevents it. Who's to say a single firearm transaction means buying one long gun or ten? The guns are going to be listed on the 4473 anyway so it would seem to be open to interpretation.

yzernie
09-09-2010, 1:50 AM
[Personally, I think it is a mistake for you to promote such things and sooner or later it is likely to cost you, unless you are just telling others to do it and not doing it yourself, in which case there are other issues involved.
For you to speculate or insinuate any other FFL is doing something contrary to the rules or illegal is completely without merit. Unless you have first hand knowledge of any wrong doing it is foolish for anyone to make comments such as these above.

How about this, you do it the way you want to and let others will do it the way they want to. If the hammer were to fall on anyone that is then on them.

tenpercentfirearms
09-09-2010, 6:19 AM
[
For you to speculate or insinuate any other FFL is doing something contrary to the rules or illegal is completely without merit. Unless you have first hand knowledge of any wrong doing it is foolish for anyone to make comments such as these above.

No his comment was legit. I openly admit that I add long guns to DROS. Kemasa thinks this is illegal and he has shown penal code that states a single transaction of any number of long guns must go on a single DROS. However, he has yet to show penal code or CCR that shows how long a transaction lasts.

I like to use two things that back up my position. 1) the restaurant industry. Do they close your bill after you order appetizers and then make you pay again for the main course, and then again for drinks, and then again for dessert? Or do they just charge you all at once when you are finished? Can you add anything to your bill as you go, or do they cut you off and make you do a new transaction?

More importantly, I am following Federal guidelines. The 4473 states a transaction is over when the seller sings the 4473. So in absence of any clear definitions from the state how long a transaction lasts, I use the Federal definition. Kemasa claims that you can't use the Federal definition for the state, but in absence of any state definition of how long a single transaction lasts, I feel more than comfortable in following Federal guidelines.

So until the DROS has a pick up date and time and until I sign the 4473, that single transaction is still open and any errors on the DROS form like a too small number of long guns, I simply cross out and fix.

And that is how I do it. Anyone can come see for themselves, including the DOJ.

TripleT
09-09-2010, 6:51 AM
My perspective on this issue is the same as Wes and this is why: If the buyer comes back as prohibited and the firearm(s) are held, there is no "transaction" single or otherwise. It never happened. It would follow that the completion of the transaction is the day the dros is dated for pickup and the 4473 signed, which can be up to thirty days.

I have been told numerous times by BOF to change things on the dros by crossing out and writing in corrected info. I do believe the number of long guns is something that can be changed and was in fact told at one point to do just that on a long gun dros for two receivers when I had entered one.

The things that the BOF are concerned about not being modified are the items only to be modified with a "DROS CANCELLATION / CORRECTION FORM FOR HANDGUNS". You'll note the form is specifically for "HANDGUNS" and the changes in information that must be submitted is strictly specifics about the handgun. This is what they do not want changed without notice using the method of a correction form submitted via mail.

I would like to hear from any FFL if they have been specifically told that they need to start a new dros if they put the wrong number of long guns to be transfered in the original dros. I don't believe that can happen or should happen and I was told just the opposite.

kemasa
09-09-2010, 9:25 AM
Wes' restaurant statements are interesting, but there is a problem with it in which he seems to be missing. Yes, there is one bill, but just try to leave without paying, telling that you are coming back in a couple of days and see where it gets you. Also tell them when you come back to add it to your previous bill and see where that gets you. I agree with this until the person leaves, you can keep adding, but once the person leaves the single sale is over.

What a Federal transaction is and what a CA transaction is are different. The CA PC states that each firearm transaction must be reported. Each handgun is a firearm transaction, although Wes has claimed that a handgun is not a firearm transaction. Any number of non-handguns as a SINGLE sale, loan or transfer. For the Feds, you can add firearms, even handguns, as the 4473 is a single transaction and it is not over until it is signed, but that is not how it works in CA.

Wes claims that *I* need to show a definition in the PC for what "single" means, but the definition of the word in the dictionary and common sense is enough for me, so instead he should show where in the CA PC that single can mean two different times at the FFL.

For CA, a single firearm transaction can be either one handgun or any number of non-handguns, but it has to be a single sale, loan or transfer. If a person buys two rifles today and then leaves and comes back tomorrow and buys two more, it is not reasonable to try to claim that is a single sale and is really the same as the previous sale, especially when you submit the DROS reporting the sale of 2 firearms. It is quite reasonable in the CA view to consider the sale complete when the DROS is submitted.

I have talked to the CA DOJ about this and while there are issues which I do not agree with them (12020, for example), this is one in which I do. I have also been told that you can correct the number of non-handguns, but it is a correction when you make a mistake, NOT a change due to a change where the number is increased. You can remove firearms as that is not an additional sale.

The DROS is reporting a sale, a complete sale, not a partial sale.

As I have said before, I don't care as much what FFLs do, although I do not want to see any FFL shutdown as it is bad PR, but what I consider to be far worse is promoting something which is illegal or at best very questionable. This is a legal issue and Wes is free to get a noted firearms attorney to give their opinion on the matter, but it is just an opinion and the real test is when it comes before the judge.

jtmkinsd
09-09-2010, 2:52 PM
I have talked to the CA DOJ about this and while there are issues which I do not agree with them (12020, for example), this is one in which I do. I have also been told that you can correct the number of non-handguns, but it is a correction when you make a mistake, NOT a change due to a change where the number is increased. You can remove firearms as that is not an additional sale.

Ooops...clumsy me, I made a mistake? How many mistakes do I get before they feel it's not a mistake?

TripleT
09-09-2010, 3:10 PM
Kemasa,

I don't recall telling the BOF why I needed to change the quantity and I don't think they asked. I was just told to make the change on the dros to the correct quantity. If they told you that you should only do the change to correct a mistake, and I have no reason to think they didn't say that, it sounds like they are, yet again, making it up on the fly. It would be pretty tough to determine when a mistake is made and when a long gun is simply added to a dros. Is that really a hair they want to split ???

kemasa
09-10-2010, 6:56 AM
The problem is that if you change the number, it is a red flag for them. They might start looking closer. If they find information which shows that it was not a single sale, then you could have a problem and they might do something, but then again they might not care at all. The question is whether you are willing to risk your business for something in which you really don't get anything?

TripleT
09-10-2010, 7:19 AM
I agree that during an audit a handwritten change to the quantity will stick out as would any handwritten change. The problem with them proving anything or investigating further would be they would have already purged their record, if it wasn't within the last 15 days. How could a dealer be expected to remember what the reason was for the change unless he added or attached additional notes or information (not required) ? For all practical purposes, I don't see an issue, other than dealer policy or comfort level, which is always something that is entirely up to the FFL. The likely hood of any problems arising from adding a long gun are slim to none in my estimation. Just my opinion but if you don't feel comfortable, don't do it. I don't think telling other FFL's that it is ok to add a long gun is giving bad advise or placing them at odds with the BOF. Again, just my opinion.

halifax
09-10-2010, 7:40 AM
When did the BOF lose sight of the stated purpose of the DROS? I thought it was meant to verify that a person is not a prohibited person. If an individual is GTG and long guns aren't registered, why, oh why, can't we add long guns to a DROS before the paperwork is finalized?

It seems the DROS process is being used (illegally?) to further restrict the rights of CA gun owners.

I hope this is brought up when wildhawker puts together his conference (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=337726) call.

kemasa
09-10-2010, 7:52 AM
The FFL's records would be the issue and the FFL would be asked why it was changed. I suspect that "I do not recall" would not go over well.

The DROS is mainly about harassment and trying to convince people to not buy firearms. If you already own a firearm, which the CA DOJ is aware of, then why any waiting period? Why do you need to list how many firearms at all? Why isn't the Federal laws and methods enough?

There is the stated purpose and the real purpose. Think about the cost for the DROS, that is not reasonable. The fact that you have to submit a handgun DROS at full cost AND a longgun DROS at full cost shows that there is a serious problem.

With all that said, the law is still the law and while it needs to be changed, that does not mean that it is a good idea to violate the law and risk your business.