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View Full Version : Have Enough Faith In You Cali "Legal" AR?


insin
05-13-2006, 6:20 PM
I just read the post reguarding a burguler being shot by the resident. My question is, would you have enough faith in the legality of our fixed mag AR's to use them in self defense? If someone was breaking in downstairs in the middle of the night, would you grab your fixed mag AR for self defense purposes?

Keep in mind, I am not questioning the reliability of your rifle, nor am I worried about over penitration, but personally (this is a hypethetical question) I am worried about explaining to LE afterward. What are your thoughts?

gmcem50
05-13-2006, 6:35 PM
I DON'T have faith in my CA legal AR, but that is because they are all still bare recievers. I bought them mostly to get in on the opportunity in the event that they were going to be added to the list, but I very quickly came to the conclusion that they never would be added. They have become expensive paper weights. I knew it was a possibility before I bought them, & now I just can't bring myself to make CA legal fixed-mag rifles. Sorry guys, I'll probably get flamed for this, but the more I thought about it, the more I hated the idea of a fixed mag AR. I just can't do it. They'll sit in the safe stripped forever before I make a CA legal AR out of them. My hunch was correct; today I went to the San Gabriel Valley Gun club to shoot my (admittedly pathetic) Mini-14, and every time I removed a magazine and looked over a few lanes at the guy who was having to break open his fixed mag AR to reload it, I knew I could never build a CA legal AR. More power to you guys who have built them, but not me; can't do it. The Mini-14 and my shotgun and handguns will have to serve as my HD guns and the added benefit is that I won't be having to answer any nasty questions from the LEOs about my guns in the event I have to use them.

AS45-70
05-13-2006, 6:36 PM
The fact is this is most likely not the gun we all have rdy for that situation.

Also, if i feel my life or my families life is in grave danger i will shoot first and worry about the legalities of my weapon later.

GM - If they are gonna remain in your safe unbuilt and you have made up your mind, just sell them, im sure someone would buy them.

five.five-six
05-13-2006, 6:39 PM
if you shoot someone in your house the cops will want to see every gun you own..it don't matter what you use

yiha
05-13-2006, 6:46 PM
if you shoot someone in your house the cops will want to see every gun you own..it don't matter what you use
maybe, but if you didnt use your off list rifle at least you could just disassemble it and avoid drama.

my weapon of defence is not my offlist, it is not built up. Its my mossy 500 with 3 buck shot first and then 4 slugs :D

gmcem50
05-13-2006, 6:49 PM
If they are gonna remain in your safe unbuilt and you have made up your mind, just sell them, im sure someone would buy them.

Nah; its not like I need the cash. They do look pretty cool too.:D Besides, I might change my mind later (but probably not).

gmcem50
05-13-2006, 6:50 PM
if you shoot someone in your house the cops will want to see every gun you own..it don't matter what you use

good point...

natrab
05-13-2006, 6:52 PM
I don't keep my AR at home. I keep it in my secured storage unit along with a lot of my other valuables. I wouldn't want to deal with it if it were to jam for some reason (with a pinned mag it's really not suitable as a defense weapon).

I keep my fiveseven and sig 239 close at home and I have the keltec in the closet safe along with some gloriously detachable magazines that I can use with it.

blacklisted
05-13-2006, 6:57 PM
I probably wouldn't use a rifle for home defense.

IMO, there are far better options that a fixed mag or pistol-gripless AR.

insin
05-13-2006, 7:01 PM
Yeah, I was feeling somewhat the same way. I keep an HK .45 handy to dispatch would be intruders, however Im not too sure about my off list AR's/AK's. Even with the fixed mag they have me worried. Bringing them to the range is one thing, but having LE fully scrutinze them in the event of a home intrusion, I DUNNO.

I know this is not the right way to think, but I have at times thought about storing my off lister's in a separate safe. Perhaps even one that is more hidden in case of an event like this.

Im sure there are some that may disaggree, but I think explaining a self defense situation is questionable enough without complicating the matter with possible AW charges.

oaklander
05-13-2006, 7:40 PM
I have a black Remington 870, with a 7 shot mag - no choke, 18 inch barrel, folding stock and Tac Light.

It's the "other black gun" - stop rates are supposed to be around 100 percent when used with 00 buck at close range.

Re: other guns in the house, I'm not sure I would disclose my other weapons unless there was a legal requirement that I do so. Quite likely, I would retain counsel and speak to him or her before I allowed the authorities to have run of my house, or before I volunteered any weapons or any information whatsoever.

VeryCoolCat
05-13-2006, 8:34 PM
Ill use my TPS, its the only shotgun i own. I don't see using anything else except a handgun as it is smaller. Plus the pistol grip on the shotgun would help if they happened to sneak up on me and we'd have to struggle. Hard to take a pistol gripped long arm out of someone's hands.

I use 00 2 3/4", i live in a densely populated area. I don't want anything flying through walls and winging or killing a bystander behind a wall.

Plus, getting shot with 00 in less than 15ft does the same damage a 9mm handgun would fired several times.

If they have a vest which I HIGHLY DOUBT anyways.. getting hit 00 would probably have the guy NOT getting up very quickly from that range.

Plus the gun looks mean... I can see the DOJ banning it just for its mean look. I don't see any unarmed criminal running at me while i'm holding it.

Satex
05-13-2006, 8:44 PM
It's not a matter of trust my CA legal fixed mag rifle - it's a matter of firepower throughput. With my semiauto handgun, I can dump 10 round per mag, replace the mags real fast and keep firing. Also, I don't keep my fixed mag rifle loaded, so it is not a practical home defense rifle.

insin
05-13-2006, 9:57 PM
LET ME SAY IT AGAIN, its not the reliability of the AR that is my concern, nor is it the fact that it is loaded or not. Instead it is what comes next, after the intruder is dispatched. Whether it was with your pistol, shotgun, or rifle. It is what LE will see your AR's as?

It is almost enough for me to purchase an additional gun safe. Maybe one of the cheap ones from Walmart, Lowe's, or Home Depot. Something that can be more hidden, aside from where my Shotty and handgun collection can be stored. Because to tell you the truth, thats what Im thinking for my Black Rifle and AK collection. I have to admit, it is a concern especially now.

megavolt121
05-13-2006, 10:47 PM
I wouldn't use it...
1) Having to deal with a DA/LEO over a shooting alone is enough of a headache.
2) Why use something that we believe is legal but an overzealous DA doesn't think is legal.
3) If you go as far as a trial by jury, do you really want them to think of you as a crazy commando with a big scary gun? Remember, 9 out of 10 people don't know the difference between fixed and removable mags.

Personally, I have a shotgun loaded w/ 5 buckshots and 2 slugs. If I have to unload everything into the BG, there wont be much of him left. Then again, I could always just pull out the .50 BMG frame and use it as a bat....

Snuffalofogus
05-14-2006, 12:16 AM
I probably wouldn't use a rifle for home defense.

IMO, there are far better options that a fixed mag or pistol-gripless AR.

Got my M44 right next to my bed;)

SevenSixTwo
05-14-2006, 12:38 AM
For a home situation it's gonna be my P220R-DAK with X200 and surefire switch or the Remington 870 I keep next to the bed.

I don't think .223 rounds zipping through my condo walls would go over to well. :D

xenophobe
05-14-2006, 1:08 AM
An AR for home defense? Perhaps if I lived in Kabul. In California, it would probably be really tough to explain to a hostile jury how you opted to use a grey-area legal high-powered assault rifle (:rolleyes:) to defend yourself. EVERY facet of a self-defense shooting will be thouroghly explored and everything you can do to avoid controversy is a good thing.

I have my P99 with 16 rounds of Federal Premium Hydra-Shocks. If that isn't enough, then I don't know what is.

sac7000
05-14-2006, 8:36 AM
if you shoot someone in your house the cops will want to see every gun you own..it don't matter what you use

That's why it's always a good idea to store some of your colleciton at another trusted location or better yet, buried in your backyard in a water-tight box for when all guns are banned and collected by the state.

artherd
05-14-2006, 8:58 AM
Faced with a life and death situation that dictated use of a rifle? I'd unbolt the mag :) That is to say, I'd choose the most effective tool at the time.

Hell I'll hit him over the head with my Barrett if I have to.

In reality, I'd probally grab one of my handguns. Rifles are pretty darn loud indoors.

Ryoushi
05-14-2006, 8:59 AM
Right now mine is simply a forged aluminum screw Bill Lockyer comemorative paperweight. Eventually (hopefully before Lockyer runs for govenor)it will become a range gun only. So no, I don't trust it for home defense.

However if the S should ever truly HTF it will get a thorough disassembly and safety check then cleaned, lubed, loaded and kept at the ready.

hoffmang
05-14-2006, 7:17 PM
Just a note that whatever home defense gun you use, make sure you're ok with the fact that you might not see it again after using it.

It makes me rely on certain other guns or buying pairs.

Also note that a gun safe with a combo and no key is superior to a key. If an officer wants into your safe you can politely tell him that he'll need a warrant and that you will speak with an attorney before you speak the combination or enter it.

Nick5811
05-14-2006, 8:33 PM
Why wouldn't I use it? The psychological intimidation factor of you holding a tactical-looking M-4/AR-15 with it's grips and lights and lasers and scopes and all the doo-hickeys, coupled with the fact that you can take that 30" 8 pound weapon and (WITH A SMASH) butt stroke the bad guy in the chin, or in the face (just like they teach you in recruit training) makes it a formidable weapon. I understand the worry about the AR and it's configuration and becoming the test case...I don't know a jury of my peers that would convict me for protecting the lives of myself and my family regardless of whether I used a meat cleaver or an extra M240G barrel.

I've seen it first hand, and a buttstroke to the face or head works pretty good, plus you don't have to worry about your rifle jamming.

Personally I'd rather have my pistol gripped mossy with the buck/slug/buck/slug/buck/slug/buck arrangement or the .40 with hollowpoints, but I think it would depend on how I felt that night, and which one of my babies I was sleeping with that night.

I would *NOT* suggest using the Remington 710 unless that is all you have...

p.s. oh yeah! don't forget to attach your M9 bayonet to the M-4 also!

wangankin
05-14-2006, 8:39 PM
Why wouldn't I use it? The psychological intimidation factor of you holding a tactical-looking M-4/AR-15 with it's grips and lights and lasers and scopes and all the doo-hickeys, coupled with the fact that you can take that 30" 8 pound weapon and (WITH A SMASH) butt stroke the bad guy in the chin, or in the face (just like they teach you in recruit training) makes it a formidable weapon. I understand the worry about the AR and it's configuration and becoming the test case...I don't know a jury of my peers that would convict me for protecting the lives of myself and my family regardless of whether I used a meat cleaver or an extra M240G barrel.

I've seen it first hand, and a buttstroke to the face or head works pretty good, plus you don't have to worry about your rifle jamming.

Personally I'd rather have my pistol gripped mossy with the buck/slug/buck/slug/buck/slug/buck arrangement or the .40 with hollowpoints, but I think it would depend on how I felt that night, and which one of my babies I was sleeping with that night.

I would *NOT* suggest using the Remington 710 unless that is all you have...

p.s. oh yeah! don't forget to attach your M9 bayonet to the M-4 also!

Thats what tactical impact muzzle devices are for... you start off with a muzzle strike and if that is ineffective you can always elevate the use of force with out coming off target.

paradox
05-15-2006, 5:34 AM
Thats what tactical impact muzzle devices are for... you start off with a muzzle strike and if that is ineffective you can always elevate the use of force with out coming off target.

That, and you don't have to worry about your buffer tube bending turning your rifle into a club. If you want to butt stroke, break out the milsurps: wood stocks, steel butt-plates, these rifles were made for beating someone to death after emptying your mag/clip.

gmcem50
05-15-2006, 8:45 AM
... a forged aluminum screw Bill Lockyer comemorative paperweight...

That is by far my favorite quote of the day! I hope you don't mind if I steal it and use it as well.:D

Ryoushi
05-15-2006, 11:29 AM
That is by far my favorite quote of the day! I hope you don't mind if I steal it and use it as well.:D

No go ahead. I'm here all week.

oaklander
05-15-2006, 4:57 PM
That, and you don't have to worry about your buffer tube bending turning your rifle into a club. If you want to butt stroke, break out the milsurps: wood stocks, steel butt-plates, these rifles were made for beating someone to death after emptying your mag/clip.

That reminds me of my Yugo 24/47 Mauser. It probably weighs 10 pounds, the wood is practically petrified hard, and all the metal parts look like they were forged out of tool steel. Oh, and it's got a 15 inch bayonet and a butt plate that's about a quarter inch thick!

:D

k

ldivinag
05-16-2006, 10:26 AM
no.

i have a keltec with removable mags for that purpose.

heck the handguns are up first, in case that scenario does come up.

PistolKidd
05-16-2006, 11:08 AM
I have so little faith in my ability to shoot with my AR that it's very low on my list of options for home defense.. first, it's in a fixed mag configuration so loading it is ridiculous.. also, Im not crazy about keeping it loaded either.. too many visitors.. you never know when some foo is gonna just cycle your rifle while you're in the bathroom.. or outside bbqing.. I trust my friends so privacy isnt an issue, but not all of them are "gun savvy" so curiosity is something i'd rather not fault them for..

Personally, i'd rather have a shotgun or pistol or even a bat before using the AR..I dont have any problem with the idea of using 5.56 for stopping intruders..but the AR platform is very very 'unwieldy' for me...

For home defense, I feel im much better off using any of my pistols or a bat rather than my AR, and I could care less about the legalities of the matter. I hardly doubt Ill find any hesitation if someone were intent on hurting me- even if all i had was a full auto glock.. There would just be one long continuous 'brrrp' if i thought my life or my family's were in danger..

I use to worry about using a "good" firearm for defense in fear of it beign taken away..but now when i think about...it's all replaceable.. i would hate to think that someone i cared about got hurt or injured, because i skimped and used an 'inferior' gun just because i was being cheap.....its' just money, and i can make more..

sv_sniper
05-16-2006, 11:08 AM
No, I won't use my off-list ARs. They are all bare receivers now.

I would grab my semi-auto pistol and two more spare mags (full of rounds).

AxonGap
05-16-2006, 11:22 AM
My FAB-10?! That would be a poor choice!

If the "shuck" sound of my Rem 870 is'nt enough, the 00 buckshot will be.

PanzerAce
05-16-2006, 12:24 PM
nope, dont have any faith in a couple peices of non moving metal. plus, for general HD, I would use the AK I am going to build up first. atleast that thing MIGHT be useful. but because of the legal situation, i would probably grab a Mosin or Mauser.

DrjonesUSA
05-16-2006, 1:52 PM
I just read the post reguarding a burguler being shot by the resident. My question is, would you have enough faith in the legality of our fixed mag AR's to use them in self defense? If someone was breaking in downstairs in the middle of the night, would you grab your fixed mag AR for self defense purposes?

Keep in mind, I am not questioning the reliability of your rifle, nor am I worried about over penitration, but personally (this is a hypethetical question) I am worried about explaining to LE afterward. What are your thoughts?



Reliability/caliber issues are a moot point as I can NOT see it being a good thing from a legal standpoint to use an off-list lower in a self-defense shooting.

shopkeep
05-16-2006, 2:04 PM
Given the ballistics of rifle ammunition, I would use one of my shotguns or handguns for home defense. There are significant dangers posed to innocent bystanders in medium to high density urban settings when rifle ammunition penetrates walls. 9mm hollow points and buckshot will not penetrate the walls of my home and pose a threat to anyone but my assailant.

As for the legality of my off-list rifles, I am not one bit afraid. I have nothing to hide and I have NOT broken any laws.

DrjonesUSA
05-16-2006, 2:13 PM
9mm hollow points and buckshot will not penetrate the walls of my home and pose a threat to anyone but my assailant.



Nothing could be further from the truth:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

shopkeep
05-16-2006, 2:18 PM
Nothing could be further from the truth:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

If the .30 carbine penetrated all 4 walls chances are fairly good that a 9mm handgun would also penetrate at least 3 if not 4.

DrjonesUSA
05-16-2006, 2:21 PM
If the .30 carbine penetrated all 4 walls chances are fairly good that a 9mm handgun would also penetrate at least 3 if not 4.


Yes and 00 Buck will also penetrate many walls, as shown in the link I posted.

B.J.F.
05-17-2006, 7:30 PM
i wouldnt chance useing my AR as a primary weapon for self defence / home defence wouldnt want the gov to have another reason to say how bad the AR/AK series is and why it should be banned

its just a bunch of b.s., the numbers prove that when more legal gun owners posess guns in their homes, less crime happens, the more they take rights away the more crime increases, granted over time, but it does show it increaseing

Evil Gun
05-17-2006, 8:24 PM
I don't use a rifle round as a homey d gun. I use my Colt 1991 for my home defense weapon. Or my 12 gauge.

Charliegone
05-17-2006, 8:31 PM
No, I won't use my off-list ARs. They are all bare receivers now.

I would grab my semi-auto pistol and two more spare mags (full of rounds).

You could just chuck it at em'. Who knows you can poke and eye out or something and make them cry.:D ;)

klmmicro
05-18-2006, 5:33 AM
I have enough faith in the firearm istself. Will my OLL funtion when I need it? Yes, it will. A thousand rounds through it with only one hic-up and that was a bad piece of ammunition. I do not doubt it will work as spec'd in the heat of the moment.

The real question is, why would I grab it in an HD situation? Most likely I would not, unless it was the closest at hand. Because I have better tools at my disposal, it would be low on my list. My 870 is easily as good, and I am well practiced with it. That is my "go to". Is your OLL you only defensive arm? Then you situation is different and you will gavitate towards it if you need a defensive firearm I suppose.

Shopkeep: As for buckshot not penetrating walls, who the heck told you that? It most certainly will! So will pistol rounds, even hollowpoints. I think you are refering to "birdshot". The .223 actually shows to be one of the better rounds in HD because of its fragmenting characteristics. Less likely to overpenetrate barriers such as walls an the like as it breaks apart in the first couple of layers of drywall.

A rule of thumb, hi velocity low/weight bullets tend to penetrate less. There are exceptions based on bullet design (Barnes X are solid copper), but this holds true for most rounds.

DrjonesUSA
05-18-2006, 8:36 AM
The .223 actually shows to be one of the better rounds in HD because of its fragmenting characteristics. Less likely to overpenetrate barriers such as walls an the like as it breaks apart in the first couple of layers of drywall.



That is NOT true: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

.223 went through ALL FOUR SIMULATED WALLS and showed NO signs of fragmentation.

klmmicro
05-18-2006, 8:45 AM
That is NOT true: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

.223 went through ALL FOUR SIMULATED WALLS and showed NO signs of fragmentation.

My bad I guess. There is another site out there that showed different results. There was nothing left but small fragments. I will try to find it as it has been a couple of years.

DrjonesUSA
05-18-2006, 9:20 AM
My bad I guess. There is another site out there that showed different results. There was nothing left but small fragments. I will try to find it as it has been a couple of years.


Ok.

Check to make sure the bullets used in the tests are the same.