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JesseXXX
05-13-2006, 1:44 PM
I just joined the forum :) (LOVE IT, LOTS OF INFO) anyhow... I have a couple questions and I'm hoping someone can streer me in the right direction....

I just purchased an SKS from Turners in EXCELLENT condition (YUGO STYLE) anyhow... can I legally install a pistol grip/collapsable stock on it ...? They have them at www.combatstocks.com .... I Sherriff's deputy at a station told me that as far as he knows that as long as the 10 round magazine is pinned, muzzle brake/flash suppressor is welded and over all length is 26 inches, you're okay.... I told him about the stock and he said if you stay within the guide lines your okay..... BUT THEN another deputy told me "no" you cannot do that....? So what's the deal...? :eek:

Lastly, I'm exmilitary and I want to build an M4 (AR15 with collapsable stock style) with a pinned 10 round magazine....I was told by 3 diffrent FFL dealers in LA that it's legal.... but then again a deputy told me no....? I'm soooo confused and just need help.... it seems the cops are just as confused as I am.... sad huh... :confused:

Thanks Buddy,
Jesse Nunez
Lomita, CA

PanzerAce
05-13-2006, 1:48 PM
In the case of the AR, the cop is wrong (ish). The DOJ released a new memo, which murked the waters. as for the SKS, well, they MIGHT be affected by the memo....

JesseXXX
05-13-2006, 1:56 PM
Thanks Panzer for responding.... cops wrong (ish) how...? Memo...? :confused: (I feel like I'm in the movie Office Space, reguarding the memo :D ) So.... can I do the stock modification....? and also build my AR15...?

JesseXXX

adamsreeftank
05-13-2006, 2:47 PM
Acording to the written law, you should be OK on both counts. However, the CA DOJ just released a memo which does not make a lot of sense and creates a lot of questions about what is legal and what isn't. Go to this forum and do some reading.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=81

There is a week old thread with like 50 pages that is all about this. Good luck.

ja391
05-13-2006, 2:49 PM
Thanks Panzer for responding.... cops wrong (ish) how...? Memo...? :confused: (I feel like I'm in the movie Office Space, reguarding the memo :D ) So.... can I do the stock modification....? and also build my AR15...?

JesseXXX

Regarding the SKS stock modification, make sure the new stock you put on doesn't violate 922r. I'm not too familiar about it, so you might want to read this thread for more info:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=32143 .

Regarding the AR15, you'll want to read this http://www.calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm . Basically, if you purchase an off-list lower (a model not on this list http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/kaslist.pdf), theoretically, you can build it up as long as it doesn't violate CA penal code 12276.1 (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.htm).

If you read SB23 (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/regs/sb23.htm), it states that "a "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool." So by using a kit to fix the magazine via an set screw or nut, technically, you're in compliance with SB23 since you'll have to use a tool (an allen wrench) to remove the mag.

However, recently the DOJ released this memo: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/AWpolicyrev4.pdf , stating that even if you have a pinned mag, you're still in violation of 12276.1 unless you permanently fix the mag or don't have any 12276.1 features (pistol grip, collapsible stock, flashhider, forward pistol grip).

You can read more in the various threads in this forum http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=81.

railroader
05-13-2006, 3:30 PM
http://www.sksboards.com/forum/ Ask here about the sks. With the sks you have to deal with state and federal laws. I'm pretty sure with a pistol grip stock you have to start changing out other parts to make it legal by federal standards. Mark

Satex
05-13-2006, 4:08 PM
Yes, we are confused too about the AR15 situation. If you want to remain confused, follow the guidelines of the forums, but understand that it provides you no legal protection. If you want to be safe, purchase a FAB-10 or Vulcan lower, and build it up as an M4 rifle.
Good luck!

Shane916
05-13-2006, 5:23 PM
To be federal compaint 922r you will need the compliance parts from Tapco which includes the made in usa gas piston, made in usa operating rod and you will need a made in usa 10 rd or less fixed magazine which are very cheap, and unreliably made for the SKS. The stock magazine one won't work because in order to meet the # of parts requirements the mag must be changed out with a usa one. You would also need a new handgaurd made in usa if the stock you wanted didn't come with one already.

JesseXXX
05-13-2006, 8:53 PM
Wow..... now I'm really confused :confused: ...... so in order to do a simple pistol grip/collapsable stock thing I have to add 10 or more US made parts...? As for my future AR build, I was gonna use "Double Star" stuff....?

Is anyone near me here in Lomita/Torrance that can e-mail me off line with a number to you at or I can supply my cell number off line and someone call me...? :)

You guys are all nice people, thanks for all the quick responces...but I'm still confused, Thanks California.....:rolleyes:

black9c1@sbcglobal.net (e-mail at home)

jmlivingston
05-13-2006, 9:23 PM
...but I'm still confused, Thanks California.....

Don't thank California, for that SKS work you're dealing with Federal stuff now! It all revolves around import laws, and building a configuration that isn't legal to be imported is a no-no. By going the 10-parts route it now has enough US components to no longer be considered an import. I highly suggest reading up on this over at the SKS boards which Railroader provided a link to.

As for the AR15 build, it's a real mess right now. You can do it, and if done correctly you're okay. What you're describing, using a pinned 10-round DoubleStar to make an M4-clone should be no problem. Beware that the DoJ is doing their hardest (and so far failing, thank goodness!) to keep these away from us. It's doable but be careful and understand what your doing and the risks involved if you do it wrong. Read the FAQ that's highlighted in bold red letters at the top of every page.

John

zrunr
05-14-2006, 2:05 PM
Jesse,

I also got an SKS from Turners. The biggest problem is cleaning the cosmoline off. You should be OK if you put only a pistol grip stock or a dragunov type stock. That should not violoate sec922r. Call the manufacterur like ATI or check their website to be sure. I got mine from AMMo BrosSec 922r will kick in with a folding stock though. I would not change the mag on the SKS because I have never seen one yet that works well.

See this link for more info:http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/4653/bardsks.htm

I would suggest looking at the various stocks out there before deciding. I can say that the Dragunov type stock from ATI makes dissasembly much harder than the original stock and you cant remove the reciever cover to clean from the breech unless you remove the stock. If you have big hands you may want to look at the ultralight ATI stock.

zrunr

Rascal
05-14-2006, 2:48 PM
Jesse,

You should be OK if you put only a pistol grip stock or a dragunov type stock. That should not violoate sec922r. Call the manufacterur like ATI or check their website to be sure. I got mine from AMMo BrosSec 922r will kick in with a folding stock though. I would not change the mag on the SKS because I have never seen one yet that works well.

zrunr

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The pistol grip IS considered a "non-sporting" feature by BATF and would be in violation of 922(r).
Go to Survivors SKS board and read Larry's FAQ on the laws pertaining to the SKS. He does a great job of explaining them.

zrunr
05-14-2006, 4:36 PM
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The pistol grip IS considered a "non-sporting" feature by BATF and would be in violation of 922(r).
Go to Survivors SKS board and read Larry's FAQ on the laws pertaining to the SKS. He does a great job of explaining them.

Rascal,

I found this posted at another link:

Some guidance as to SKS's can be gleaned from this letter to the NRA from BATF Technology Branch, from an old rec.guns post, this letter is also printed in the NRA magazine, American Rifleman May, 1994, p.44:

-------- From:
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Text of ATF letter RE: SKS parts.
Date: 24 Mar 1994 20:12:18 -0500
Lines: 60

Quite frustrated with the discussions of the modifications allowed on an SKS in the wake of Title 18 U.S.C. sec 922 (r) I called the local (KCMO) office of the BATF and talked to an inspector (that's what they called themselves, NOT agents). In a previous post I told you all about their insistence that 922 (r) covered modification of ANY imported firearm. Well I called NRA/ILA and they faxed me the following letter they received on 2 MARCH 1994. This should clear up some of the misconceptions rampant here and at local BATF offices.

-------- QUOTE FOLLOWS:
From: Dept. Of Treasury
BATF
Wash. DC
To: [name deleted]
NRA
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, VA.

Dear Sir:
[Snip snip] In answer to your specific questions, the following modifications of an SKS type rifle WOULD _NOT_ BE A VIOLATION of Section 922 (r):
1. Replace the existing stock and handguard with a non-folding wooden or synthetic stock having either a Monte Carlo or thumbhole design.
2. Attach a muzzle mounted recoil compensator, provided that the device is not also designed as a flash suppressor.
3. Replace the standard configuration stock with a Monte Carlo or thumbhole style stock and replace the fixed magazine with a detachable magazine. THIS MODIFICATION MAY BE DONE PROVIDED THAT THE BAYONET MOUNT IS COMPLETELY REMOVED FROM THE RIFLE.
4. Replace the existing 10 round magazine with a fixed magazine of a larger capacity.
5. Replace the existing 10 round magazine with a fixed 5 round magazine or install a block in the well of the 10 round fixed magazine to limit its capacity to 5 rounds.
6. Replace the existing receiver cover with a cover having a telescopic sight based and\or rings.
7. Replace the front and\or rear sight or install an ambidextrous safety.
With respect to attaching a bipod to a standard configuration SKS rifle; standard configuration SKS rifles are not approved for importation with bipods. Therefore, the attachment of a bipod would be a violation of Section 922(r).
END QUOTE

It seems to me a thumbhole stock is fine according to the ATF if this letter is legit.

zrunr

RaceDay
05-14-2006, 5:06 PM
A thumbhole stock is different from a pistol grip.

JesseXXX
05-14-2006, 10:06 PM
So....a Collapsable stock/pistol grip is NOT legally doable in California then....?:confused:

Also...Thanks for all the great responces..... so far...:)

JesseXXX

PS ZRunr.... are you in SoCal....?

Shane916
05-14-2006, 10:53 PM
I think the safest bet is to leave the SKS stock how it is for legal purposes.. after all they are already "assault weapons" because the magazine isn't "permanently" fixed!!! :eek: ;)

Rascal
05-15-2006, 6:08 PM
Zrunr,
It states thumbhole design, NOT pistol grip. BATF does not recognize a thumbhole design as the same as a pistol grip. Kalifornia does, but BATF.
BATF recognizes a pistol grip as a "non-sporting" feature, on foreign made or assembled long guns.
The only way for you to have a pistol grip on a SKS is for it to be a U.S.A. made weapon, so you are no longer subject to 922(r) regulations.

Rascal
05-15-2006, 6:11 PM
So....a Collapsable stock/pistol grip is NOT legally doable in California then....?:confused:

Also...Thanks for all the great responces..... so far...:)

JesseXXX

PS ZRunr.... are you in SoCal....?

Yes you can, if you play the 10 or less foreign parts, to make your SKS a U.S.A. made rifle. Then you are no longer subject to Fedral law 922(r).
The hard part is finding a non-detatchable magazine that works correctly.
I haven't found one yet.

JesseXXX
05-16-2006, 6:51 PM
Hello Everyone.....:)

So... the Dragunov is legal and legit in Kalifornia...? :confused: and....If I do the Dragunov.... what other parts would I need....?

Jesse!

Rascal
05-17-2006, 12:26 PM
This link is your friend. http://www.victorinc.com/SKS-FAQ.html