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INJUNTOM
09-05-2010, 3:17 PM
Gun rugs with a loop to padlock the zipper closed - I saw a thread here a while back that showed one in the door pocket of a car, and said that it was considered a locked case. I was told by a gun store employee the other day that the rug wasn't a locked container because it could be cut open. That's what I always assumed until I saw the thread here.

But..it wouldn't be hard to cut through a plastic case either..

Rob454
09-05-2010, 3:20 PM
.

But..it wouldn't be hard to cut through a plastic case either..

Depends on the case. But yeah I can see a gun rug not being a real locked container. I mean it has about as much security as a purse

vta
09-05-2010, 7:13 PM
gun store employees might be the worst people to listen to for legal advise. at least some of the ones i have come across.

those cheap brown zippered gun rugs with the furry liners from big 5 are perfectly legal as a full enclosed, lockable case. even a zippered pocket on your backpack will work.

Old4eyes
09-05-2010, 8:35 PM
Pray tell, what did the gun store state what a secure container was?

Here's the text of the law:
(a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state
or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

Yes, I could cut through a gun rug or my 511 case. Get out a fire axe and I bet I could go through my Storm case. Now is the gun fully enclosed in the gun rug, yes. Is it substantial enough that I will have to use a tool to break into it, yes. I don't see the words substantial, I don't see a UL listing requirement for break in. Ask him which LEO told him a gun rug was illegal and can site case law indicating that a lockable gun rug / soft case does not meet the requirement shown above (the line in bold).

Malthusian
09-05-2010, 8:54 PM
We just went over the gun rug issue today at class.
It is legal with a particular type of zipper.

If you put the lock through the holes of the two zipper ends, the zipper can be manipulated enough to access the weapon. A 2-3 inch opening can be manipulated to open the entire rug. Putting the lock through the holes on the two zipper ends is "not" advisable. It does qualify as locked, but an attorney could ague it was still assessable

There are zippers that overlap with a hole for a lock, that binds the two ends and does not allow the ends to separate. These are legal and a better solution

There is another type that has a key to actually lock the zipper

JohnFLand
09-05-2010, 9:04 PM
The key term in the statute is "SECURE". No definition given. A battery-operated circular saw with abrasive blade will cut through any plastic and most metal containers. A hatchet or good knife will cut through most plastic and all "soft" (e.g., gun rug) containers. A bolt cutter (or sometimes just wire cutters) will cut through most locks.

So one needs to turn to the purpose of the law. Haven't read the statutory history, but I'd be willing to bet that the underlying motive here was to make sure it takes an appreciable amount of time and obvious efforts to gain access to any firearm in the vehicle. Glove and utility compartments are likely banned because access is too easy (even if locked) and it would be common for someone in the vehicle to reach into such a compartment for legitimate reasons (getting registration) as well as dangerous reasons (grabbing a gun).

Since it would take an appreciable amount of time and obvious efforts (e.g., grabbing a knife) to cut open a gun rug, there is a very strong argument that a locked gun rug is "secure" within the meaning of the statute. But it will take a court determination to really ascertain the scope of the text. It would seem the rule of lenity should apply, favoring the defendant, since the scope of "secure" is vague and ambiguous.

Purple K
09-05-2010, 9:06 PM
Locked container does not specify what type of zipper on your container any more than it specifies what type of hinge. Don't read more into the law than what's there.

sevensix2x51
09-05-2010, 10:59 PM
i can cut through my gun safe with a sawzall and enough blades. gun rugs are fine. my edc is in a rug, and i never think twice about it.

17+1
09-05-2010, 11:05 PM
and said that it was considered a locked case. I was told by a gun store employee the other day that the rug wasn't a locked container because it could be cut open.

LOL...that's subjective.

By this reasoning, my buddy with his plasma cutter could render my cars trunk an unlocked container in just a few seconds.

JagerTroop
09-05-2010, 11:56 PM
Here's some food for thought:

The other day, I dropped my micro vault (housing a G23 and 2 mags) on the carpet. It landed on the corner and popped open.

I can't ever recall a locked gunrug 'accidentally' opening.

Munk
09-06-2010, 2:35 AM
I love this. That should tell you something about how "secure" a simple lockbox can (or in this case, might NOT) be.
Here's some food for thought:

The other day, I dropped my micro vault (housing a G23 and 2 mags) on the carpet. It landed on the corner and popped open.

I can't ever recall a locked gunrug 'accidentally' opening.

To the topic at hand. If it's locked, has no easy openings through which a person may touch the firearm, and is strong enough that a child of average to low strength cannot forcibly open the container, it's good to go. (no plastic baggies with a masterlock closing the end).

If it requires a tool, or a great amount of force without one, it's all good.

That being said...A wireless rotary tool can unzip almost any container in seconds, turning your padlock into the new hinge, or just removing the hasp that the lock is run through (locks are usually STRONGER than the container and aren't worth bothering with).