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R.Mac
09-05-2010, 11:55 AM
I know there are a lot of dudes on this forum that know all the guns laws to a tee, so I pose this question;
If you have CCW permit and are carring a loaded handgun in your car, do you still have to transport any other guns with the ammo and the firearm in different locations in your vehicle? Seems kind of redundant, but I guess a lot of our Cali laws are. Thanks,

nn3453
09-05-2010, 11:58 AM
A CCW is not a blanket permit. You have to qualify with the firearm(s) you will be carrying. You can concealed carry the firearms listed.

brianm767
09-05-2010, 1:33 PM
If it's not on your permit, it must be carried per state law.

Now ammo needing to be separate from the weapon that's a totally separate argument, show me a law that states the ammo must be in a separate location in the vehicle than the firearm.

If you don't want to be hassled by LEO, then yes keep it separate from the firearm, but unless your carrying a weapon, even in a locked case in plain sight, a cop would never even know you have one, I've been pulled over lots of times in my life, and have never once been asked if I have any weapons, and even if I was asked, and I wanted to keep the officer from securing my weapon, I'd just say, I have nothing illegal in my car, I would never say no, I don't have a firearm, when I actually do, and if asked, I'd say, no I do not give consent to a search, but every thing I have is legal so either way, I have no worries.

Now if you want to go by the letter of the law, and also what my Father, a retired CHP capt, my cousin, a Current CHP traffic officer, and my son, a current Sheriff deputy tell me, is, by the letter of the law, there is no law that says ammo must be separate from a firearm, it just cant be loaded in the weapon, and they say a loaded mag, is not a loaded firearm, the loaded mag must be inserted in to the gun into a position where it could be fired from for it to be considered loaded.

But even my family members who are LEO's tell me, why push it, you may still get arrested with a loaded mag if it's near the firearm, then it's up to you to hire attorneys and spend tens of thousands of dollars to prove you are right and the arresting officer is wrong, and infact, my father told me of a case where the courts still sided with the officer and not the defendant who had a rifle or shotgun, and it was not loaded, but I think the guy had ammo on his person, totally wrong,

I choose to carry my handguns in a locked soft case, with a loaded mag separated from that case, but I don't worry, because I wont ever give a LEO probable cause or consent to search my vehicle, and as far as I am concerned, I am carry every thing in a legal manner.

INJUNTOM
09-05-2010, 1:41 PM
Good topic. I was just thinking about this recently

INJUNTOM
09-05-2010, 1:42 PM
Also wondering if you are allowed to CCW more than one gun at a time since you are allowed to have 3 on your permit.

nn3453
09-05-2010, 1:54 PM
But even my family members who are LEO's tell me, why push it, you may still get arrested with a loaded mag if it's near the firearm, then it's up to you to hire attorneys and spend tens of thousands of dollars to prove you are right and the arresting officer is wrong, and infact, my father told me of a case where the courts still sided with the officer and not the defendant who had a rifle or shotgun, and it was not loaded, but I think the guy had ammo on his person, totally wrong,


Wrong. Look up case law, People vs Clark. No DA is going to touch that case. A barely competent lawyer can get it dismissed within minutes. I would further ask my lawyer to pursue a suit against the city/department for wrongful arrest. This is gun store/range FUD. Please do not spread it.

"People v. Clark(1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99 specifically limited 12031(g) by holding that in order to be “loaded” a firearm must have ammunition “placed into a position from which it can be fired”. The case rested on the fact that a shotgun is not loaded when shotgun shells were attached to a shotgun inside a buttstock shell carrier."

INJUNTOM
09-05-2010, 2:14 PM
Wrong. Look up case law, People vs Clark. No DA is going to touch that case. A barely competent lawyer can get it dismissed within minutes. I would further ask my lawyer to pursue a suit against the city/department for wrongful arrest. This is gun store/range FUD. Please do not spread it.

"People v. Clark(1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99 specifically limited 12031(g) by holding that in order to be “loaded” a firearm must have ammunition “placed into a position from which it can be fired”. The case rested on the fact that a shotgun is not loaded when shotgun shells were attached to a shotgun inside a buttstock shell carrier."

So you can have a loaded magazine next to your locked case with a gun in it?

If your case doesn't lock (like a Glock case), is it still considered locked if you have a cable lock on the gun in the non-locking case?

nn3453
09-05-2010, 2:29 PM
So you can have a loaded magazine next to your locked case with a gun in it?

If your case doesn't lock (like a Glock case), is it still considered locked if you have a cable lock on the gun in the non-locking case?

When transporting, your gun has to be in a locked container. Your loaded magazine can be in the same container right next to the gun.

If you gun case does not have a lock, lock it in the trunk, which qualifies as a locked container.

INJUNTOM
09-05-2010, 2:35 PM
When transporting, your gun has to be in a locked container. Your loaded magazine can be in the same container right next to the gun.

If you gun case does not have a lock, lock it in the trunk, which qualifies as a locked container.

What about the cable lock? Is that considered locked?

brianm767
09-05-2010, 3:22 PM
Wrong. Look up case law, People vs Clark. No DA is going to touch that case. A barely competent lawyer can get it dismissed within minutes. I would further ask my lawyer to pursue a suit against the city/department for wrongful arrest. This is gun store/range FUD. Please do not spread it.

"People v. Clark(1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99 specifically limited 12031(g) by holding that in order to be “loaded” a firearm must have ammunition “placed into a position from which it can be fired”. The case rested on the fact that a shotgun is not loaded when shotgun shells were attached to a shotgun inside a buttstock shell carrier."

I agree, and my family does too, it's not loaded until it is in a firing position, but even by citing your example, by the way, that's probably the case my father was referring too and I for got the out come, I thought the guy was convicted, my mistake, my apologize, but seeing how it did go to trial, this does back up what my family was telling me, a officer who is not informed of the law, may still wrongfully arrest you, and now that there is "people vs Clark" hopefully it would be dropped, but it still doesn't change the fact that many LEO's don't properly understand the law, and there is a potential for a wrongful arrest, as in the case of Clark, he was arrested while being in compliant with the law.

Many times while my son is on duty, other deputies will call him or send messages over their computers to ask him firearm questions, especially regarding so called assault weapons and OLL questions, they don't even know the law, but my son is pretty up to speed on firearms issues.

Like I said, show me the law saying it has to be separated, there is not one, we agree on that, I carry my gun is a soft locked case, with a loaded magazine, often in a pouch on the out side of my case, but by the law, I could carry it inside the same case, I just choose not too because I don't want it to scratch my gun.

cmth
09-05-2010, 7:05 PM
What about the cable lock? Is that considered locked?

No. Cable locks are completely useless for anything but to deny access to children, as the owner of the firearm can be held criminally liable if a child gains access to the firearm and uses it in an unlawful manner.

A firearm is only "locked" for the purposes of PC 12025 and 626.9 if it's completely enclosed in a secure container with a lock on the container.

Cokebottle
09-05-2010, 7:17 PM
do you still have to transport any other guns with the ammo and the firearm in different locations in your vehicle?
You don't have to do this, whether you have a CCW permit or not.
This is gun shop FUD that continues to be spread.

You can transport a handgun, inside of a locked container that is not a glovebox or utility compartment, with loaded magazines inside the same box, as long as the magazines are not inserted into the gun.

Outside of a federal gun free school zone, you can transport a rifle in an unlocked container or rolled in a blanket... again, with loaded magazines in the same "roll".
You can even transport a shotgun with shells in the sidesaddle shell carrier.


As others have said, WRT the CCW permit, you may only CCW weapons that are listed on your permit.

Cokebottle
09-05-2010, 7:23 PM
So you can have a loaded magazine next to your locked case with a gun in it?
You can have the loaded magazine IN the locked case with the gun.
If your case doesn't lock (like a Glock case), is it still considered locked if you have a cable lock on the gun in the non-locking case?
The cable lock is legally useless the moment you step out of the gun shop after buying the gun.

It's sole purpose is to prevent children from accessing the gun and hurting someone. If you have children, you have three options... keep the gun locked, use a REAL gun safe, or train your children to the point that you are comfortable. My entire generation grew up without cable locks and we're still alive.... but that was in a time when children knew that if they crossed certain boundaries, they'd be in for more than a "time out".

For transport, ADG makes some cheap plastic and aluminum cases that'll carry up to 4 pistols (or two pistols and a bunch of loaded mags).
If these aren't available locally (Turners carries them), you can go online... or go to Staples and pick up a cheap briefcase.

jermedic
09-06-2010, 8:13 AM
Also wondering if you are allowed to CCW more than one gun at a time since you are allowed to have 3 on your permit.

I have 3 listed on my permit and I can carry all 3 at the same time if I wanted. It would be kind of a heavy load though lol

k1dude
09-06-2010, 8:52 AM
Injuntom is probably doing it the smart way. I've heard the same FUD repeatedly from gun shops to NRA instructors about transporting weapons/ammo. But even though you have the letter of the law on your side, with so much FUD out there I'm afraid to be arrested by some Barney Fife that doesn't know the law. So why take the chance. I don't have an extra $20,000 to $30,000 laying around to throw at lawyers to get me out of the mess. I'll just store them separately. In effect through FUD, the state has managed to have a separate ammo storage law without even having to pass one. Damned Kalifornia.

Cokebottle
09-06-2010, 10:34 AM
Injuntom is probably doing it the smart way. I've heard the same FUD repeatedly from gun shops to NRA instructors about transporting weapons/ammo. But even though you have the letter of the law on your side, with so much FUD out there I'm afraid to be arrested by some Barney Fife that doesn't know the law. So why take the chance. I don't have an extra $20,000 to $30,000 laying around to throw at lawyers to get me out of the mess. I'll just store them separately. In effect through FUD, the state has managed to have a separate ammo storage law without even having to pass one. Damned Kalifornia.
Not at all.

That is one piece of FUD that I have never heard from a cop... including cops who aren't aware that UOC is legal.

brianm767
09-06-2010, 10:59 AM
You don't have to do this, whether you have a CCW permit or not.
This is gun shop FUD that continues to be spread.

You can transport a handgun, inside of a locked container that is not a glovebox or utility compartment, with loaded magazines inside the same box, as long as the magazines are not inserted into the gun.

Outside of a federal gun free school zone, you can transport a rifle in an unlocked container or rolled in a blanket... again, with loaded magazines in the same "roll".
You can even transport a shotgun with shells in the sidesaddle shell carrier.


As others have said, WRT the CCW permit, you may only CCW weapons that are listed on your permit.

Correct with the exception of a registered assault rifle, it has to be transported in the same manor as a hand gun, meaning a locked container, it can not be in a unlocked container or a rolled blanket etc...

k1dude
09-06-2010, 11:18 AM
Not at all.

That is one piece of FUD that I have never heard from a cop... including cops who aren't aware that UOC is legal.

I've personally had cops (2) tell me you have to store the ammo in a different locked container from the gun. If you've read this board for long, many many many other Calguns posters have had the same experience. Barney Fife is alive and well ready to arrest someone.

INJUNTOM
09-06-2010, 12:06 PM
Barney Fife is alive and well ready to arrest someone.

Very true. Better to error on the legal side than pushing the envelpoe.

I learned years ago that government agencies will have different workers giving different info depending on who you get. I've done a lot of DMV business with classic cars and such, and have gotten all kinds of different info depending on what teller I get that day. Wording and interpretation is EVERYTHING. That said, I thinjk we can all agree that law wording is crazy to comprehend sometimes, and not all people interpret things the same way...

nn3453
09-06-2010, 12:21 PM
Very true. Better to error on the legal side than pushing the envelpoe.


Case law is not "pushing the envelope." The verdict is clear cut, no ambiguity there.

Why not take it one step further and not travel anywhere with guns at all. Then you would have no problems at all, right? In fact, why own firearms at all?

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but behaving like scaredy cats does not help us get our rights back. If anything, one should be happy if a cop arrests you for doing something clearly legal. We have organizations like the CGF that will straighten the matter out quickly and that department will be better informed.

Cokebottle
09-06-2010, 5:12 PM
We have organizations like the CGF that will straighten the matter out quickly and that department will be better informed.
Excellent point.

As long as there is no "color" to the case, the Calguns Foundation has our back if we are arrested for something that is clearly legal.
CGF is not an insurance policy, but part of their work in protecting and furthering our rights is to ensure that no bad case law is passed.

We've had a number of Calgunners over the years who have been arrested for their OLL rifles, or had their rifles confiscated.
To date, there are ZERO successful prosecutions involving a California-legal OLL AK or AR platform rifle, and I believe in all cases, the guns have been returned.
Blackwaterops was one of the earlier cases, and the most recent was Stan, about a year ago.
Stan's case was eventually cleared up with what amounted to little more than a phone call once he got CGF involved. He was never arrested, but his Stag was confiscated by the OCSD. His case was what prompted the OCSD training bulletin distributing clear information to the deputies about the legality of a BB-equipped AR-15 platform rifle.

Sacramento already had a bulletin issued: Sacramento (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf), Orange County (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf).

OldLincoln
09-07-2010, 4:22 PM
In case the answer wasn't clear, a locked container can be a soft sided pistol case (rug) with a zipper and loop to put a $1.50 luggage lock through. It can be a plastic case like most I've seen with the split handle (half for each side) and a padlock around the handle. The case lock is not regulated as is a gun lock. However, you cannot have it loose enough that a person can insert their finger through an opening.

Also, the locked trunk is an acceptable locked container. The glove box and center console is NOT.

Pretty sure but not positive: A locked container as above CAN hold your pistol inside the car as in the console or glove box.

As for me, when going to the range I have my guns (except carry) in a range bag in the trunk. Besides being legal, it's easier to get out and carry into the range.

Cokebottle
09-07-2010, 6:22 PM
Also, the locked trunk is an acceptable locked container.
Unless the rear seats fold down with a release on the interior of the car.

This is extremely common with even midsized cars, though some, such as the current Corolla, release the seats from within the trunk. That would be legal.

Palmaris
09-07-2010, 7:22 PM
Unless the rear seats fold down with a release on the interior of the car.

This is extremely common with even midsized cars, though some, such as the current Corolla, release the seats from within the trunk. That would be legal.

I got question regarding release seats-I have Lexus and rear seats do not release completely, but there arm rest in the middle and if I put it down, there is small hole with door with access to trunk. So, is my trunk concedered as locked container or not?

Thanks in advance.

Cokebottle
09-07-2010, 7:28 PM
I got question regarding release seats-I have Lexus and rear seats do not release completely, but there arm rest in the middle and if I put it down, there is small hole with door with access to trunk. So, is my trunk concedered as locked container or not?

Thanks in advance.
I wouldn't chance it... at least not for handguns.

A locking pistol hardcase is only $30 or $40.

Palmaris
09-07-2010, 7:30 PM
I wouldn't chance it... at least not for handguns.

A locking pistol hardcase is only $30 or $40.


Thanks a lot.
I will not take chance.