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Corbin Dallas
09-03-2010, 7:53 PM
What are you guys using to change mags in your 3gun events with a CA compliant AR15?

Gpik? Freelock? Bullet? Other?

I'm open to ideas but I don't want a one way trip to the slam.

asme
09-03-2010, 7:57 PM
What I've gathered from people I've talked to is that featureless is the way to go for 3-gun, using magazines you had before the ban or "had before the ban."

If I had to use a bullet button I've had good luck with the Thordsen Customs magazine modification link (http://www.metaldogtactical.com/thcuulbuto.html)

X-NewYawker
09-03-2010, 8:01 PM
I can tell you that switching mags with a BB as compared to standard release is THREE TIME LONGER when done by a pro.
No matter what you use to push the button, you have to change hands which increases potential time and miscues.

SuperSet
09-03-2010, 8:02 PM
Correct, featureless is the way to go. But, if you have a BB, some matches have a CA class so you only compete against other 10-rd limited shooters. I see more Gpiks than anything else.

Exile Machine
09-03-2010, 8:06 PM
We have a lot of customers who are doing 3-gun. The tip of the index finger would be the fastest and most reliable tool for releasing mags under stress.

http://www.exilemachine.com/tool_banner_ad.jpg

joelogic
09-03-2010, 8:23 PM
If you just want to compete use any tool that you can easily locate. Bullet on a lanyard. But if you want to win you have to go featureless.

elsolo
09-03-2010, 10:23 PM
If you are just getting into 3-gun, or any other type of competition for that matter, you won't be winning anyway.

killshot44
09-04-2010, 12:01 AM
If you are just getting into 3-gun, or any other type of competition for that matter, you won't be winning anyway.

Dick much?

elsolo
09-04-2010, 1:19 AM
Dick much?
no thanks.


If you are just getting into 3-gun, or any other type of competition for that matter, you won't be winning anyway.

So don't overly concern yourself if your equipment makes you reload more often and takes longer, it won't even matter.

Just get out and try it with what you already own.

CoyoteHunter555
09-04-2010, 1:24 AM
no thanks.


If you are just getting into 3-gun, or any other type of competition for that matter, you won't be winning anyway.

So don't overly concern yourself if your equipment makes you reload more often and takes longer, it won't even matter.

Just get out and try it with what you already own.

Haha I would never want to hang with you bud ;) You're no fun. You should quit guns only because (personal attack) you kinda suck :D Also, why go out there with what he has when he can get a gpik for a buck?

**Edit** BTW, GPIK

tenpercentfirearms
09-04-2010, 7:22 AM
If you are just getting into 3-gun, or any other type of competition for that matter, you won't be winning anyway.

Wow, some of you guys must not shoot three gun. elsolo is right on. You are not going to win at three gun anytime soon. When you are competing against guys who have been shooting three gun for years, you are not even going to come close to their score for the first several matches. It takes a while to figure out what kind of gear you need and what kind of gear works for you.

I shoot right in the middle of the three gun boat at Piru, which I am pleased to do because I am new and I don't practice at all except at the monthly matches and at IDPA.

So what elsolo is trying to say and it is going right over the sensitive type's heads is that you should just go out and try it and have fun. You will quickly figure out what is best for you and the guys there will help you.

We can help you a little bit right now. Featureless is the only way to go. I shot my first three gun match with the Hello Kitty AR and a Bullet Button. On the long range I cleaned up. On the short range, the BB loads sucked.

Now I shoot a real three gun rifle with a Sabre Defense 18" Competition upper and a decent scope. Now I hold my own.

NORCAL#1
09-04-2010, 8:57 AM
There is no reason that you cant 3 gun with a BB. I have shot the match with guys like Joe at Chabot several times. Although the chances of you winning are slim, Their are plenty of things to practice. When I compete i use a BB and 10 round mags, And i still have a lot of fun. You will improve on your reloading for sure! I have shot with friends who are LEO and military with 30 round mags and normal mag release in a timed simulated 3 gun stage. The difference in times from a BB rifle and an AW style ar15 is not a much as you would think. If you are interested in 3 gun and don't compete because you have a BB you are the only one holding yourself back.

CoyoteHunter555
09-04-2010, 10:25 AM
Wow, some of you guys must not shoot three gun. elsolo is right on. You are not going to win at three gun anytime soon. When you are competing against guys who have been shooting three gun for years, you are not even going to come close to their score for the first several matches. It takes a while to figure out what kind of gear you need and what kind of gear works for you.

I shoot right in the middle of the three gun boat at Piru, which I am pleased to do because I am new and I don't practice at all except at the monthly matches and at IDPA.

So what elsolo is trying to say and it is going right over the sensitive type's heads is that you should just go out and try it and have fun. You will quickly figure out what is best for you and the guys there will help you.

We can help you a little bit right now. Featureless is the only way to go. I shot my first three gun match with the Hello Kitty AR and a Bullet Button. On the long range I cleaned up. On the short range, the BB loads sucked.

Now I shoot a real three gun rifle with a Sabre Defense 18" Competition upper and a decent scope. Now I hold my own.


He didn't say try it and figure it out as you go. He said you aren't going to win so don't bother investing, just use what you've got because you don't have a chance and it wouldn't be worth the $. He didn't even say go featureless, he just said give up. Wrong attitude. Sensitive? No, just someone who is that negative stands out, and to me all I can think is keep it to yourself. Your post, however, was much more helpful and had some optimism in it, thanks for posting

CoyoteHunter555
09-04-2010, 10:26 AM
There is no reason that you cant 3 gun with a BB. I have shot the match with guys like Joe at Chabot several times. Although the chances of you winning are slim, Their are plenty of things to practice. When I compete i use a BB and 10 round mags, And i still have a lot of fun. You will improve on your reloading for sure! I have shot with friends who are LEO and military with 30 round mags and normal mag release in a timed simulated 3 gun stage. The difference in times from a BB rifle and an AW style ar15 is not a much as you would think. If you are interested in 3 gun and don't compete because you have a BB you are the only one holding yourself back.

THANK YOU

emcon5
09-04-2010, 10:43 AM
He didn't say try it and figure it out as you go. He said you aren't going to win so don't bother investing, just use what you've got because you don't have a chance and it wouldn't be worth the $. He didn't even say go featureless, he just said give up. Wrong attitude. Sensitive? No, just someone who is that negative stands out, and to me all I can think is keep it to yourself. Your post, however, was much more helpful and had some optimism in it, thanks for posting

You got something completely different out of that than I did.

"Just get out and try it with what you already own." doesn't mean "just give up" to me.

CoyoteHunter555
09-04-2010, 10:46 AM
You got something completely different out of that than I did.

"Just get out and try it with what you already own." doesn't mean "just give up" to me.

It meant don't bother trying to win. Sure try, but you won't win. Simple. That is giving up. Yet you don't have to win for it to be a blast

RRichie09
09-04-2010, 10:55 AM
If you are just getting into 3-gun, or any other type of competition for that matter, you won't be winning anyway.


I don't understand why people think you are a dick for saying this? Its the truth.

And if you get into some type of competition where you are winning right away, its not much of a competition is it?

The joy of winning comes from all of the hardwork spent practicing and improving your skills to become the best.

CoyoteHunter555
09-04-2010, 11:02 AM
I don't understand why people think you are a dick for saying this? Its the truth.

And if you get into some type of competition where you are winning right away, its not much of a competition is it?

The joy of winning comes from all of the hardwork spent practicing and improving your skills to become the best.

Well nobody asked to win right away now did they? I say if you develop your skills enough to hang with a BB and 10 rounder, you've got potential, so then build a featureless rifle

RRichie09
09-04-2010, 11:05 AM
Well nobody asked to win right away now did they? I say if you develop your skills enough to hang with a BB and 10 rounder, you've got potential, so then build a featureless rifle

Well yea, but they asked if they need to modify their AR and elsolo's point was, you don't need to spend money on your ar to start 3gun competition because you won't be winning right away. Then everyone jumped on elsolo calling him a dick when he was giving sound advice, much like your advice of starting 3gun, THEN building a featureless rifle as you progress through the sport and decide if its worth your time and money.

What are we arguing again? lol Sounds like everyone is on the same side?

CoyoteHunter555
09-04-2010, 11:07 AM
Well yea, but they asked if they need to modify their AR and elsolo's point was, you don't need to spend money on your ar to start 3gun competition because you won't be winning right away. Then everyone jumped on elsolo calling him a dick when he was giving sound advice, much like your advice of starting 3gun, THEN building a featureless rifle as you progress through the sport and decide if its worth your time and money.

What are we arguing again? lol Sounds like everyone is on the same side?


Ha true'ish. Problem was he said anyway, not right away

PistolS&W
09-04-2010, 11:13 AM
where are you taking part in 3-gun competitions near SD? im interested and have everything required including a featurless keltec su16ca wich in CA would seem to be the ideal 3-gun rifle.

RRichie09
09-04-2010, 11:14 AM
Ha true'ish. Problem was he said anyway, not right away

Oh, yeah that is kind of a dick statement, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he meant to type right away haha.


Re-read elsolo's post. He said if you are GETTING INTO 3gun you won't win anyways.

Same as you won't win right of the bat.

CoyoteHunter555
09-04-2010, 11:16 AM
Oh, yeah that is kind of a dick statement, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he meant to type right away haha.

Nice of you haha

joelogic
09-04-2010, 11:17 AM
I didn't mean to cause such a stir when I said, "If you want to win..". I also didn't mean it in the short term, I meant in the long run. In the 18 months I have been shooting I have gone through several revisions of my gear. I started with a featured gun and did ok but for fast times you really need extended mags so I switched to a featureless gun. In short, run what you got and then upgrade as you see fit.

Side note about gear, when I first started I ran the whole GI Joe rig but now after a fee matches under by belt I just run a simple 2 piece Velcro belt.
Also regarding your weapon I smoked plenty of people with fancy JP guns with my self assemble weapon with used and no name parts.
Bring gun and ammo to the range and shoot.

CoyoteHunter555
09-04-2010, 11:24 AM
Oh, yeah that is kind of a dick statement, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he meant to type right away haha.


Re-read elsolo's post. He said if you are GETTING INTO 3gun you won't win anyways.

Same as you won't win right of the bat.

Well obviously ;)

CoyoteHunter555
09-04-2010, 11:24 AM
:leaving:

RRichie09
09-04-2010, 11:28 AM
Well obviously ;)

That's why I was confused when people started jumping on his back. I suppose he could have worded it better.

Giving people the benefit of the doubt usually works out for everyone.

Corbin Dallas
09-04-2010, 12:13 PM
Ok, how about you guys take this offline and stick to the topic.

Thanks to all for the ideas. I've thought about featureless but I just can't get used to the monsterman grip or solar tactical wing thing.

Will I win? Probably not, but I don't want to lose because I was effing with my bullet button pusher tool thing-a-mabob...

With the GPik, what do you guys do when you transitition to your pistol? It doesn't look very comfortable with a two handed grip...

PistolS&W
09-04-2010, 12:30 PM
Ok, how about you guys take this offline and stick to the topic.

Thanks to all for the ideas. I've thought about featureless but I just can't get used to the monsterman grip or solar tactical wing thing.

Will I win? Probably not, but I don't want to lose because I was effing with my bullet button pusher tool thing-a-mabob...

With the GPik, what do you guys do when you transitition to your pistol? It doesn't look very comfortable with a two handed grip...

ive never done any official 3-gun but a single point sling works well to transition to pistol from a holster. just slide the rifle to your opposite side and grab the pistol.

SuperSet
09-04-2010, 12:34 PM
where are you taking part in 3-gun competitions near SD? im interested and have everything required including a featurless keltec su16ca wich in CA would seem to be the ideal 3-gun rifle.

Pala range has a monthly 3-gun event. You can find more info here.
http://www.lineadefuego.info

One thing you should note is that they shoot 10" plates out to 375Y so make sure your KelTec can perform to that accuracy standard.

Ok, how about you guys take this offline and stick to the topic.

Thanks to all for the ideas. I've thought about featureless but I just can't get used to the monsterman grip or solar tactical wing thing.

Will I win? Probably not, but I don't want to lose because I was effing with my bullet button pusher tool thing-a-mabob...

With the GPik, what do you guys do when you transitition to your pistol? It doesn't look very comfortable with a two handed grip...

One of the GPik guys will have to chime in but when I ran a BB for a few months, I taped a plastic screw to the bottom of my 10-rd mags for reloading and to accomodate pistol transitions.

joelogic
09-04-2010, 1:30 PM
There really is no need to reinvent the wheel or fight with your gear. Try a gun with a MMG, grip wrap, or exile grip and see if you can like it. Granted a pistol grip is the best but we make do with what we have. I do pretty well with the solar tactical grip wrap.

If all else fails run the gpik on your middle finger.

PistolS&W
09-04-2010, 1:41 PM
Pala range has a monthly 3-gun event. You can find more info here.
http://www.lineadefuego.info

One thing you should note is that they shoot 10" plates out to 375Y so make sure your KelTec can perform to that accuracy standard.



One of the GPik guys will have to chime in but when I ran a BB for a few months, I taped a plastic screw to the bottom of my 10-rd mags for reloading and to accomodate pistol transitions.

thanks for the info and as far as the rifle goes its as accurate as any AR. its a sub 1 moa gun so accuraccy is not an issue 1/9 twist 16'' barrel shoots wlamart federal 55gr .223 at 2930 fps. when relaxed i was taking 2 liter bottles at 350 yrds with the factory ghost ring iron sights pretty regularly.

Exile Machine
09-04-2010, 2:16 PM
I've thought about featureless but I just can't get used to the monsterman grip or solar tactical wing thing.

Both of those deny the use of the opposable thumb. If you want to run an AR-15 featureless, there's only one CA compliance product currently in production that lets you wrap your hand around the grip (http://www.exilemachine.com/) and use finger-detachable 30 round mags:

http://www.exilemachine.com/images/IMG_9805_C.JPG
(note: pinned stock)

http://www.exilemachine.com/IMG_7138_CR.JPG

Booshanky
09-04-2010, 2:32 PM
I can tell you that switching mags with a BB as compared to standard release is THREE TIME LONGER when done by a pro.
No matter what you use to push the button, you have to change hands which increases potential time and miscues.

Not true! I've got one of those finger stylus things for PDA's that you slip on over your firing hand middle finger. Shoot with the index, release mags with the middle.

It's certainly not as fast as using a real mag release, but it's not THAT bad either.


All that being said, I do wish I had an upper I could remove the flasher hider from so that I could go featureless if I wanted.

SuperSet
09-04-2010, 2:41 PM
thanks for the info and as far as the rifle goes its as accurate as any AR. its a sub 1 moa gun so accuraccy is not an issue 1/9 twist 16'' barrel shoots wlamart federal 55gr .223 at 2930 fps. when relaxed i was taking 2 liter bottles at 350 yrds with the factory ghost ring iron sights pretty regularly.

Sounds like you're all set then so get the rest of your gear together and head out there! They have a match coming up next Sunday 12 Sep 2010. Take a look at AR15Barrel's sticky thread about what you need to get started shooting action matches and you're all set. I'm copying the last email from the match director to provide more info --

Folks,

If you are not going to Nationals, why not head to San Diego for a 3 gun match?

Pala will be hosting our monthly 3 Gun on Sunday, Sept. 12th, 2010, the 2nd Sunday of the month. We will be shooting 5 multi-gun stages during the match. Cost will be $25 for members and $35 for non-LDF members. Sign up will start around 0830 hours and the match will start at 0900 hours.

I would suggest brining 150 rounds of rifle ammo, 125 rounds of pistol ammo, 125 rounds of #7-8 shot, 10-15 shotgun slug and 5-10 #4 buck or 00 buck to the match. We shoot a number of Texas Stars and those nasty MGM spinners with either shotgun or pistol or both, so bring some extra pistol ammo. If they are to be shot with the shotgun, the 00 buck works well on them.

Here is a link for directions to the range.

http://www.lineadefuego.info/matches/ncsa.php

We use International Multi-Gun Association rules for our 3 gun match. Here is a link for Rocky Mt. 3-Gun rules, which are the same ones we use.

http://www.rm3g.com/New%20Rules-2010.pdf

Once the match is completed and scored, you can find the match scores and previous match scores at the LDF website listed below;

http://www.lineadefuego.info/scores/

LMK if you have any questions. We hope to see you at the range.

Jeff G.

PistolS&W
09-04-2010, 2:50 PM
Sounds like you're all set then so get the rest of your gear together and head out there! They have a match coming up next Sunday 12 Sep 2010. Take a look at AR15Barrel's sticky thread about what you need to get started shooting action matches and you're all set. I'm copying the last email from the match director to provide more info --

Folks,

If you are not going to Nationals, why not head to San Diego for a 3 gun match?

Pala will be hosting our monthly 3 Gun on Sunday, Sept. 12th, 2010, the 2nd Sunday of the month. We will be shooting 5 multi-gun stages during the match. Cost will be $25 for members and $35 for non-LDF members. Sign up will start around 0830 hours and the match will start at 0900 hours.

I would suggest brining 150 rounds of rifle ammo, 125 rounds of pistol ammo, 125 rounds of #7-8 shot, 10-15 shotgun slug and 5-10 #4 buck or 00 buck to the match. We shoot a number of Texas Stars and those nasty MGM spinners with either shotgun or pistol or both, so bring some extra pistol ammo. If they are to be shot with the shotgun, the 00 buck works well on them.

Here is a link for directions to the range.

http://www.lineadefuego.info/matches/ncsa.php

We use International Multi-Gun Association rules for our 3 gun match. Here is a link for Rocky Mt. 3-Gun rules, which are the same ones we use.

http://www.rm3g.com/New%20Rules-2010.pdf

Once the match is completed and scored, you can find the match scores and previous match scores at the LDF website listed below;

http://www.lineadefuego.info/scores/

LMK if you have any questions. We hope to see you at the range.

Jeff G.


right on man hey i see they have pistol comp's too. is there going to be one next saturday despite it being sept 11th? i think id rather start there first. ammo's cheaper and i think id be more competetive there. so if i like the operation they run then maybe next month ill do the 3-gun.

SuperSet
09-04-2010, 3:03 PM
Dunno about the pistol as I only do 3-gun but I see it on their Scores calendar so it's a good bet they will have the match. Shooting pistol competition first is a good idea to learn the range commands, safety protocol and logistics.

PistolS&W
09-04-2010, 3:07 PM
Dunno about the pistol as I only do 3-gun but I see it on their Scores calendar so it's a good bet they will have the match. Shooting pistol competition first is a good idea to learn the range commands, safety protocol and logistics.

yea i agree. also whats the standard on the 30 rnd mags for 3 gun? those get checked as preban in any way? do guys really all have to scrounge to find preban mags to be competetive only to kick them in the dirt constently?

SuperSet
09-04-2010, 3:12 PM
No, there's not a pre-ban checkpoint. ;) It's up to the individual to remain compliant. And don't forget that if you don't have any with you, it's legal to borrow from others while you're at the match.

PS. To the original topic thread, Pala does have several shooters in Tac-10 class so anyone wanting to use that config will be in good company.

JaeOne3345
09-04-2010, 3:13 PM
I just switched to a solar tac grip and the lack of thumb "issue" not an issue.

PistolS&W
09-04-2010, 3:14 PM
thats a big 10-4

Joe788
09-04-2010, 3:28 PM
Just curious: If somebody in California with no registered assault weapons, wanted to shoot 3 gun with a regular off the shelf M4 carbine with 30 round detachable mags, what would it take? 07FFL + ??? = profit? Or is it simply impossible?

AIMSMALL
09-04-2010, 3:36 PM
yea i agree. also whats the standard on the 30 rnd mags for 3 gun? those get checked as preban in any way? do guys really all have to scrounge to find preban mags to be competetive only to kick them in the dirt constently?

You can't "scrounge" to find preban mags, if you owned 30 round mags before the ban then those are preban, if you didn't own any then you are SOL.

It is not illegal to own hi-caps, the problem is legally obtaining them post ban is difficult. Read this link for more information.

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

PistolS&W
09-04-2010, 3:47 PM
You can't "scrounge" to find preban mags, if you owned 30 round mags before the ban then those are preban, if you didn't own any then you are SOL.

It is not illegal to own hi-caps, the problem is legally obtaining them post ban is difficult. Read this link for more information.

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf


so purchasing mags from another party that are preban is illegal? and how can you tell the difference? i wouldnt imagine the preban magazines say "preban" on them.

I read through that link and maybe i missed it but i didnt see anything about obtaining post ban hi-capacity magazines legally. are you bassically saying if some one did some how get ahold of 30rnd magazines then they are now legal? kinda like how if a cuban touches american soil hes legally an american?

AIMSMALL
09-04-2010, 4:45 PM
It is impossible to enforce "preban" and "postban" mags because as the letter from DOJ states you are allowed to replace all the parts of your "preban" mags with new parts from newly mfg mags.

It is not illegal to own a hi-cap mag but it is illegal to sell them in CA or import them into CA so if you were to buy one from someone here that person would have commited a crime, if you were to import one to CA you would have commited a crime.

I have heard stories of guys buying "CA compliant hi-caps" that were not blocked to ten rounds correctly and would accept an 11th round. In this case, the seller would be guilty of exporting a hi-cap into CA or selling a hi-cap in CA but the buyer would not be guilty of any crime and would now legally posses a hi-cap mag as it is not illegal to buy a hi-cap in CA.

here's another link that explains more. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=124709
I AM NOT A LAWYER.

russ69
09-04-2010, 6:28 PM
If you are just getting into 3-gun, or any other type of competition for that matter, you won't be winning anyway.

Trooth!

DK9mm
09-05-2010, 12:18 AM
There is no reason that you cant 3 gun with a BB. I have shot the match with guys like Joe at Chabot several times. Although the chances of you winning are slim, Their are plenty of things to practice. When I compete i use a BB and 10 round mags, And i still have a lot of fun. You will improve on your reloading for sure! I have shot with friends who are LEO and military with 30 round mags and normal mag release in a timed simulated 3 gun stage. The difference in times from a BB rifle and an AW style ar15 is not a much as you would think. If you are interested in 3 gun and don't compete because you have a BB you are the only one holding yourself back.

Nicely worded!

I agree.

HighLander51
09-05-2010, 7:14 AM
3 Gun is probably 10 times harder than shooting a pistol match (with the exception of the USPSA Nationals and Area II), but you have to start somewhere, so don't let the bullet button rifle hold you back. When you get a few matches under your belt, you will begin to settle on your equipment. Be advised, there is no cheap way into 3 Gun, if you buy a $200 scope, you will buy it 3 times over.....

HighLander51
09-05-2010, 7:58 AM
Corbin, try posting your question here

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=48

These guys are all competitors and actually shoot on a regular basis.

And slings are not commonly used in 3 Gun. When you transition from one weapon to another, it is 'grounded' Here I am grounding the rifle, the shotgun is visible on the right side, it is later grounded in the same stage, then transition to pistol.

See you guys at the USPSA Multi Gun Nationals in Vegas.

PistolS&W
09-05-2010, 10:30 AM
3 Gun is probably 10 times harder than shooting a pistol match (with the exception of the USPSA Nationals and Area II), but you have to start somewhere, so don't let the bullet button rifle hold you back. When you get a few matches under your belt, you will begin to settle on your equipment. Be advised, there is no cheap way into 3 Gun, if you buy a $200 scope, you will buy it 3 times over.....


whats the point of a scope in 3-gun my understanding was that its a short-medium range competition. nothing past 375 yards... iron sights or a red dot should be just fine. even the marines are required to be accurate to 500 yards with there iron sights. plus the scope would make you much slower aquiring targets at close range.
and my personal reasoning for doing these competitions are to get real world skills and if i have to scope my 5.56 rifle to be competetive then its not the sport for me. does everyone scope there rifle or just some?

PistolS&W
09-05-2010, 10:33 AM
Corbin, try posting your question here

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=48

These guys are all competitors and actually shoot on a regular basis.

And slings are not commonly used in 3 Gun. When you transition from one weapon to another, it is 'grounded' Here I am grounding the rifle, the shotgun is visible on the right side, it is later grounded in the same stage, then transition to pistol.

See you guys at the USPSA Multi Gun Nationals in Vegas.

WHAT! NO SLINGS!? thats a habbit i dont reccomend anyone pick up :eek:


"OUT OF AMMO!!...(throws rifle down as if it was useless)"

they should make it a rule that you carry all firearms through the entire course.

SuperSet
09-05-2010, 10:42 AM
Your expectations differ from the reality of 3-gunning. This is a fun Saturday at the range.. not assaulting Fallujah. And yes, you can shoot the entire course using Irons only (Limited Division). Most of your competitors are in Tac-Optics so yes, most use an optic with the majority employing 1-4X scopes.

ar15barrels
09-05-2010, 10:49 AM
It meant don't bother trying to win. Sure try, but you won't win. Simple. That is giving up.

How he originally said it is correct.
You can TRY, but you won't win.
That does NOT mean that you should not try.

PistolS&W
09-05-2010, 10:50 AM
Your expectations differ from the reality of 3-gunning. This is a fun Saturday at the range.. not assaulting Fallujah. And yes, you can shoot the entire course using Irons only (Limited Division). Most of your competitors are in Tac-Optics so yes, most use an optic with the majority employing 1-4X scopes.

ok so theres an iron sights division... thats cool then. i guess i was kind of confused on what 3-gun was. now is the pistol competition the same thing? because if i cant even so much as holster my pistol i might aswell stay home.

im all for safety and that may be something they dont allow for safety purposes but it will be of no use to me if i have to heavily adapt to a game rather then combat training.

obviously theres some level of combat mentality because if it was souly for fun then theyd be shooting .22 only

SuperSet
09-05-2010, 10:57 AM
Correct. One of the reasons many matches don't allow hot transition from long gun to handgun is safety. Yes, you will shoot from the holster for pistol competition. You should spend some time on YouTube and search out '3gun' or 'USPSA' or 'IDPA' to see what the actual competition entails. I would not call it combat training as that entails a certain mindset and array of tactics that don't apply to this avenue. Competition tests and refines the gunhandling and marksmanship portion of the Combat Triad.

ar15barrels
09-05-2010, 11:10 AM
thanks for the info and as far as the rifle goes its as accurate as any AR. its a sub 1 moa gun so accuraccy is not an issue 1/9 twist 16'' barrel shoots wlamart federal 55gr .223 at 2930 fps. when relaxed i was taking 2 liter bottles at 350 yrds with the factory ghost ring iron sights pretty regularly.

:rofl2:

You won't be "relaxed" after the buzzer goes off. ;)

PistolS&W
09-05-2010, 11:18 AM
:rofl2:

You won't be "relaxed" after the buzzer goes off. ;)

yea thats why i said that.... ;)

ar15barrels
09-05-2010, 11:19 AM
WHAT! NO SLINGS!? thats a habbit i dont reccomend anyone pick up :eek:


"OUT OF AMMO!!...(throws rifle down as if it was useless)"

they should make it a rule that you carry all firearms through the entire course.

3gun is a sport.
If you are looking for training classes, GO TAKE TRAINING CLASSES.
3gun is not a training class.
In order to keep it safe, many things are changed including the fact that you will rarely carry more then 1 gun.

If you want to shoot 3gun and carry all you guns, then the Ironman is for you.
They have a stage there where you carry all 3 guns up a hill and shoot them from each position.
It's a very physically demanding stage, especially when done in the rain. (parma mud is slippery!)

PistolS&W
09-05-2010, 11:21 AM
Correct. One of the reasons many matches don't allow hot transition from long gun to handgun is safety. Yes, you will shoot from the holster for pistol competition. You should spend some time on YouTube and search out '3gun' or 'USPSA' or 'IDPA' to see what the actual competition entails. I would not call it combat training as that entails a certain mindset and array of tactics that don't apply to this avenue. Competition tests and refines the gunhandling and marksmanship portion of the Combat Triad.

ok 10-4.. yea ill atleast try it one time and keep an open mind as far as the pistol competition and see how it goes. all i need to know is what to shoot at and what not to point the gun at and im golden.

ar15barrels
09-05-2010, 11:22 AM
ok so theres an iron sights division... thats cool then. i guess i was kind of confused on what 3-gun was. now is the pistol competition the same thing? because if i cant even so much as holster my pistol i might aswell stay home.

You will spend the day walking around with an unloaded and holstered pistol.
You only load it when the range command is given.
You will most likely start each course of fire with a loaded and holstered pistol, but you will most likely not re-holster a pistol and almost certainly not a LOADED pistol.

In 3gun, you will generally shoot the pistol empty, or put it on safe and place it on a table before aquiring a long gun.
Most matches will require the pistol to be empty before it goes on the table.

PistolS&W
09-05-2010, 11:31 AM
3gun is a sport.
If you are looking for training classes, GO TAKE TRAINING CLASSES.
3gun is not a training class.
In order to keep it safe, many things are changed including the fact that you will rarely carry more then 1 gun.

If you want to shoot 3gun and carry all you guns, then the Ironman is for you.
They have a stage there where you carry all 3 guns up a hill and shoot them from each position.
It's a very physically demanding stage, especially when done in the rain. (parma mud is slippery!)

yea i dont want a training CLASS... i just want to more or less practice what i already know. not to say i dont want to learn from others but i doubt theres a class that you can take that would cover a guy carrying his SHTF belt with survival knife, mace, pistol mags, AR mags, pistol, and carrying rifle and have him running around vehicles and walls and engaging human shaped targets at various distances. thats how i traine when i go shooting.

i only have found 2 other people who enjoy it aswell. both happen to be LEO's

if they have that class where do i sign up.

PistolS&W
09-05-2010, 11:34 AM
You will spend the day walking around with an unloaded and holstered pistol.
You only load it when the range command is given.
You will most likely start each course of fire with a loaded and holstered pistol, but you will most likely not re-holster a pistol and almost certainly not a LOADED pistol.

ok i guess thats cool.

ar15barrels
09-05-2010, 11:46 AM
i doubt theres a class that you can take that would cover a guy carrying his SHTF belt with survival knife, mace, pistol mags, AR mags, pistol, and carrying rifle and have him running around vehicles and walls and engaging human shaped targets at various distances. thats how i traine when i go shooting.

if they have that class where do i sign up.

Get yourself a blue gun and sling it, then shoot pistol matches.
They will let you carry all that other crap.
You will soon learn that carrying all that other crap sucks though if you want to actually be competetive.
That crap snags on stuff when moving around in tight quarters.

If you want to shoot 3gun while carrying everything, then lookup "trooper class".
Troopers carry everything all day long.

PistolS&W
09-05-2010, 12:52 PM
Get yourself a blue gun and sling it, then shoot pistol matches.
They will let you carry all that other crap.
You will soon learn that carrying all that other crap sucks though if you want to actually be competetive.
That crap snags on stuff when moving around in tight quarters.

If you want to shoot 3gun while carrying everything, then lookup "trooper class".
Troopers carry everything all day long.

well the idea is to be competetive in reality not the game know what i mean. but i dont think id be running around using my pistol with a perfectly good rifle on my back so ill check out the trooper class thanks

Corbin Dallas
09-05-2010, 1:21 PM
Corbin, try posting your question here

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=48

These guys are all competitors and actually shoot on a regular basis.

And slings are not commonly used in 3 Gun. When you transition from one weapon to another, it is 'grounded' Here I am grounding the rifle, the shotgun is visible on the right side, it is later grounded in the same stage, then transition to pistol.

See you guys at the USPSA Multi Gun Nationals in Vegas.


I'm familiar with BrianEnos, but since the AW laws really apply here and not in other states, I wanted to talk to Californians about what they are doing.

States that have no laws against readily detachable magazines don't really have an opinion other than "move".

Thanks to eveyone for their input!

SFgiants105
09-15-2010, 12:50 PM
Something that I do, which is hard at first, is exposing the bullet portion of the first round in the magazine to push the bullet button. The easy part is ejecting the spent magazine; the hard part is quickly pushing the round back into the full mag for a quick reload. But with practice, I've gotten pretty quick at it. (btw, if you do this, its easier to have the magazines set up for this before you actually have to reload, cuz sliding a round out of a full mag isnt that easy)
Just something to look into...