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View Full Version : M1 Garand - need FFL to sell?


Havoc70
09-03-2010, 7:22 PM
Hey, I'm selling my M1 Garand and I've been asked if it's cash and carry. I responded that I'd prefer to go through a FFL regardless, but I was curious if it actually needed to be done as a PPT at a FFL?

Mac Attack
09-03-2010, 7:31 PM
Rifle has to be 50 years old. I heard this directly from a DOJ agent when myself and another Calgunner did a deal for a 1903A3. If you are both residents of the state it is a cash and carry rifle. Beware though, Springfield produces a newer M1 Garand and this rifle would not qualify as a cash and carry rifle. It would be easy to spot one of the newer rifles from the older ones as the new one looks 'new' without dents, dings and the bluing is perfect.

Mssr. Eleganté
09-03-2010, 8:29 PM
...It would be easy to spot one of the newer rifles from the older ones as the new one looks 'new' without dents, dings and the bluing is perfect.

There are also some new looking original M1 rifles around, so a better way to spot the Springfield Armory Inc. reproductions is their serial numbers, which start in the 7 million range. The serial numbers on real USGI rifles from the real Springfield Armory ended somewhere in the 6 million range.

Havoc70
09-03-2010, 8:45 PM
S/N on this one is 2782398, which is between March and April 1944 near as I can tell.

jtmkinsd
09-03-2010, 9:27 PM
S/N on this one is 2782398, which is between March and April 1944 near as I can tell.

(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of
Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio
or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date,
but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11
of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.

Cash and carry....I would get a signed receipt with make, model, serial number and I would want to visually see his license to be sure he's a CA resident...CYA

Ron-Solo
09-03-2010, 10:17 PM
Cash and carry....I would get a signed receipt with make, model, serial number and I would want to visually see his license to be sure he's a CA resident...CYA

This is perfectly legal. Your local FFL barely breaks even on a PPT, and don't give the state anyone's hard earned money.

If you go thru an FFL, he is then required to put it in 10 day gun jail too, which just rubs me the wrong way.

Mssr. Eleganté
09-03-2010, 11:09 PM
S/N on this one is 2782398, which is between March and April 1944 near as I can tell.

It's your prerogative (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1vbbz_bobby-brown-my-prerogative_music) to require a PPT at an FFL if you want. Just be aware that it will effect the price you get for the rifle. You will limit your potential market because many buyers will be turned off by your adding hoops not required by law. Others will want a lower price to make up for the $35 PPT fee, the ten day waiting period, extra trip back to the gun store...

I've sold three M1 rifles, FTF with no paperwork, in California and haven't been hurt by it yet. But everyone needs to find their own comfort level.

Havoc70
09-04-2010, 5:13 AM
Yah, I've decided to do it cash and carry.

Thanks for your input!

dachan
09-04-2010, 6:03 AM
Check the barrel date, there are some interpretations of C&R code that say a (arsenal) rebuild resets the mfg date.

Havoc70
09-04-2010, 10:17 AM
Here's what I see when pulling the bolt back at the receiver end of the barrel:

SA 8535448 12 85 MD53

jtmkinsd
09-04-2010, 10:39 AM
Check the barrel date, there are some interpretations of C&R code that say a (arsenal) rebuild resets the mfg date.

This is generally regarded as FUD, "some interpretations" is not the law...The receiver is what is regulated by BATFE, therefore THAT is the "firearm". If I put a brand new barrel, stock and anything else on a C&R receiver it is still a C&R receiver. If you can show me something in the law that says refurbishing a gun resets the manufacture date then I would agree...but it's just not there...Somebody may have asked the question "What if I rebarrel/restock my C&R, is it still a C&R?" and of course the answer was no it's not...but there is NO legal precedent which supports this. We can argue all day about how much refurbishing one can do to their C&R gun before it's no longer a C&R. the simple fact is any other interpretation of the BATFE's definition is conjecture.

dachan
09-04-2010, 12:38 PM
The receiver is what is regulated by BATFE, therefore THAT is the "firearm". If I put a brand new barrel, stock and anything else on a C&R receiver it is still a C&R receiver.

Except in the case of classifying firearms as C&R, ATF Ruling 85-10 clearly recognizes only assembled firearms as curios or relics. C&R status is not solely defined by the age of the receiver.
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-85-10.pdf

In classifying firearms as curios or relics under this regulation, ATF has recognized only assembled firearms as curios or relics. Moreover, ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics and surplus military firearms not in their original military configuration were not generally recognized as curios or relics by ATF since they were not of special interest or value as collector’s items.

On the otherhand, to my original statement, rebarrelling or arsenal rebuilding, rarely disqualifies a firearm from C&R status because doing so normally keeps the firearm in original configuration.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html

Q: What modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification?
The definition for curio or relic (“C & R”) firearms found in 27 CFR § 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.

It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable-for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.

Therefore, in the case of a M1 Garand, it could be argued that rebarreling into 308 would take it out of its original configuration and reset the clock, but not a standard post Korean War arsenal refinish or even a SA, Inc. rebuild using a WWII receiver and remaining parts of similar configuration as that era.

OP:
Are you sure that the barrel doesn't say SA 8535448 12 65 MD53? Alot of M1 Garands were rebarrelled in the mid-60's, and it's more likely that your barrel was Dec 1965 production. And of course, the Springfield Armory was closed prior to 1985, on April 30, 1968, after 174 years of service. It's quite likely your M1G was rebarrelled, but still retains it's C&R status since it should be considered in original configuration. However, it's only $35 for some cheap legal insurance.

Havoc70
09-04-2010, 1:11 PM
Yah, it's a six, it looks kinda like an 8, but it's a 6, for sure. I had to put brighter light on it :).

jtmkinsd
09-04-2010, 1:11 PM
LOOK AT WHAT YOU POSTED...

In classifying firearms as curios or relics under this regulation, ATF has recognized only assembled firearms as curios or relics. Moreover, ATF’s classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics and surplus military firearms not in their original military configuration were not generally recognized as curios or relics by ATF since they were not of special interest or value as collector’s items.

AND APPLY THE DEFINITIONS IN THE LAW...

Federal Firearms Act. 15 U.S.C. Chapter 18.

Firearm. Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics.

Firearm frame or receiver. That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.

This is why things get so confusing for so many people...the terms "it could be argued" or "there are some interpretations" or "my buddy told me"...none of it means anything unless there's case law which amends the original law or definitions

It doesn't matter if the barrel he's got on it was made yesterday, a year ago, or 50 years ago, unless it was radically altered from it's original condition it's good 2 go

In the end it's up to him...If he wants to go to a local FFL it's his choice...it's not required

dachan
09-04-2010, 1:42 PM
LOOK AT WHAT YOU POSTED...


It doesn't matter if the barrel he's got on it was made yesterday, a year ago, or 50 years ago, unless it was radically altered from it's original condition it's good 2 go

In the end it's up to him...If he wants to go to a local FFL it's his choice...it's not required

Fixed one little thing for you.

I think were mostly in agreement here, I only wanted you to know that C&R status is not solely defined by the age of the receiver, all this discussion about the definition of a firearm vs. a receiver is wasted time.

OP, I've just been trying to say:
1) Questions arise frequently on what modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification.
2) ATF Ruling 85-10 stipulates that firearms must remain in their original configuration to retain C&R status.
3) Your M1G should easily be considered in original configuration. A recently sporterized 1903 would not be C&R, a recently rebarrel M1G into 308 or even a HW NM barrel would not, but yours should be okay.
4) Still, it's only $35 for some cheap insurance.

Havoc70
09-04-2010, 3:45 PM
Thanks all. I think it's still good to go for C&R.

Sailormilan2
09-04-2010, 7:41 PM
Fixed one little thing for you.

I think were mostly in agreement here, I only wanted you to know that C&R status is not solely defined by the age of the receiver, all this discussion about the definition of a firearm vs. a receiver is wasted time.

OP, I've just been trying to say:
1) Questions arise frequently on what modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification.
2) ATF Ruling 85-10 stipulates that firearms must remain in their original configuration to retain C&R status.
3) Your M1G should easily be considered in original configuration. A recently sporterized 1903 would not be C&R, a recently rebarrel M1G into 308 or even a HW NM barrel would not, but yours should be okay.
4) Still, it's only $35 for some cheap insurance.

While a HW NM barreled Garand might not qualify as a C&R, a Garand barreled in 308 Win would still qualify. The Military used rebarreled Garands in 308 Win for match guns. So, technically, a 308 barreled Garand could still qualify for a C&R status since it would still be in original military configuration.

jtmkinsd
09-04-2010, 8:43 PM
Fixed one little thing for you.

I think were mostly in agreement here, I only wanted you to know that C&R status is not solely defined by the age of the receiver, all this discussion about the definition of a firearm vs. a receiver is wasted time.


Agreed...it just ruffles my feathers when a simple answer is turned into something it's not...bringing in what-ifs and making assumptions about something totally unrelated to the question. I understand about what is and isn't a C&R and I know you do as well...with the information the OP gave it's a very simple answer. He didn't say anything about rechambering the gun or plastic stocks or toaster ovens attached to a picattiny rail...so why bring up every nuance to the ridiculous laws?

Sorry if I seemed overbearing...guess I should switch to decaf :o

Sailormilan2
09-04-2010, 9:44 PM
+1 on your comments, jtmkinsd..............................except for the decaf part.:D