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plan-b
09-03-2010, 1:36 PM
I can appreciate the benefits of the shorter barrel when it comes to military or LE applications, but I don't quite understand it for the average citizen here in CA. Outside of CA, I can even see why someone would want it, just cause it's actually realistic to get the SBR stamp. Heck, I'd do it for cool factor alone. But since we have to have neutered rifles anyway, I'm not grasping the benefit. After you stick on the longer muzzle brake, you only seem to chop off about an inch, but you also lose an inch and a half of rifling.

So why the attraction?

joelogic
09-03-2010, 1:59 PM
Same reason we climb mountains. Because we can. I don't see the point to a mag locked 10rd ar pistol but plenty people build those.

Massappeal
09-03-2010, 2:01 PM
People get them just because they can.
Is there really a reason to have 10+guns? golden desert eagles? etc.
People just have extra funds or just plain like the way it looks so they buy and if the zombies ever attack, I'm sure people wont care if its legal or not to convert it to SBR :13:

Fate
09-03-2010, 2:05 PM
Ask Randall @ar15barrels.com ;)

14.5" barrels on a carbine gas system results in better overall performance than a carbine gas system with a 16" barrel.

RRichie09
09-03-2010, 2:06 PM
Cause they want a rifle that is 1.5 inches shorter.

Given that both 16 and 14.5 barrels have the same flash hider the 14.5 barrel will be 1.5inches shorter.

Is it worth the hassle of permanently pinning on a FH? I uno, I don't think so.


Ask Randall @ar15barrels.com ;)

14.5" barrels on a carbine gas system results in optimal dwell time and better overall performance than a carbine gas system with a 16" barrel.

But then you can just get a 16" mid

TMC
09-03-2010, 2:15 PM
I have one of the above mentioned 14.5 with a pinned FH. It looks much shorter than a 16 with a FH, I have even been accused of having an SBR by a range officer at a public range (one more reason I don't go to public ranges anymore). I have shot 16" guns and there isn't a noticable difference between the two. Back in 96 when I bought it I wanted the closest thing to an M4 I could get and the Bushmaster 14.5 M4 profile was it.

ArkinDomino
09-03-2010, 2:37 PM
14.5s have sex appeal, more than the 16s believe it or not.

CoyoteHunter555
09-03-2010, 2:42 PM
14.5s have sex appeal, more than the 16s believe it or not.

believe it

idbstyler
09-03-2010, 2:46 PM
agree. i just like the way it looks.
14.5s have sex appeal, more than the 16s believe it or not.

dieselpower
09-03-2010, 2:47 PM
The distance from the gas port to the muzzle is shorter. as the bullet passes the gas port hole the gas behind the bullet fills the gas tube, as the bullet leaves the muzzle the pressure in the gas tube drops..this is dwell. the longer the barrel is past the gas port, the longer the dwell. a 11" or 14.5 barrel has a better dwell time then a 16" barrel. as will a 16" barrel with a gas port farther out toward the end of the muzzle (middy).

TMC
09-03-2010, 2:51 PM
14.5s have sex appeal, more than the 16s believe it or not.

Yes they do!

stix213
09-03-2010, 3:00 PM
People want 14.5 vs 16 for the same reason people go with 16 instead of 20.

Also instead of asking "why?" you should be asking "why not?"

CSACANNONEER
09-03-2010, 3:02 PM
Most OOS people who own 14.5" barrels do not spend $200 on a NFA tax stamp. They permanently attach extensions like we do here.

rromeo
09-03-2010, 3:03 PM
A better question would be "why do people buy 10/30 mags?"

ke6guj
09-03-2010, 3:15 PM
14.5s have sex appeal, more than the 16s believe it or not.

I remember seeing an approved Form 1 that had for the reason, "cause chicks dig short barrels" :D

plan-b
09-03-2010, 3:21 PM
I remember seeing an approved Form 1 that had for the reason, "cause chicks dig short barrels" :D

Okay, that's it... I'm doing a 14.5" barrel next build.

God Bless The Mauser
09-03-2010, 3:36 PM
The flash hider that's needed to make it 16" isn't all that much longer.

beauregard
09-03-2010, 3:38 PM
Seriously.

And what's up with the 10/20 or 10/30 mag? Like I want an extra 3 to 5 inches of NOTHING hanging off my weapon?

rromeo
09-03-2010, 3:52 PM
Beau, you of all people shouldn't be talking about extra stuff hanging off the weapon.

ke6guj
09-03-2010, 3:55 PM
And what's up with the 10/20 or 10/30 mag? Like I want an extra 3 to 5 inches of NOTHING hanging off my weapon?perhaps they want the extra length to be able to do a failure drill with less hassle. Larger mag means that it easier to get a hold of it to extract if stuck, and if doing a tap, rack, bang drill, larger mag might be able to be "tapped" easier.

Maltese Falcon
09-03-2010, 4:00 PM
14.5 feels right for CQB. Open field I like the 16.

.

vta
09-03-2010, 4:45 PM
we get the 14.5 because we can't get the 10.5.

stix213
09-03-2010, 5:13 PM
Seriously.

And what's up with the 10/20 or 10/30 mag? Like I want an extra 3 to 5 inches of NOTHING hanging off my weapon?

They let you at least pretend you don't live in a socialist state

Plus a regular 10 round mag in an AR/AK is like putting a giant rainbow sticker on the back of a Ferrari

God Bless The Mauser
09-03-2010, 5:21 PM
They let you at least pretend you don't live in a socialist state

Plus a regular 10 round mag in an AR/AK is like putting a giant rainbow sticker on the back of a Ferrari

And because they fit im mag pouches and they are easier to insert into the carbine.

mocos
09-03-2010, 6:08 PM
manueverability.....shooting in tight spaces...the shorter the easier to handle....however,you give up accuracy when you give up inches.....

God Bless The Mauser
09-03-2010, 6:33 PM
manueverability.....shooting in tight spaces...the shorter the easier to handle....however,you give up velocity when you give up inches.....

Fixed it for you.

Jeffu
09-03-2010, 6:44 PM
BELIEVE IT

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss111/denimtalk/LBCstudios-com.jpg

Bigtwin
09-03-2010, 7:17 PM
I guess the simple answer is "Because they can"! For me the simple way to understand it is: Why is a Road King more expensive than the Electra Glide Standard? Same frame, same suspension, same engine, same transmission and same fenders and tank. As the basics go it is the same bike! However, you get less options on the Road King than the Electra Glide ...with the Road King you are lacking a few gauges and a fairing!

Supply and demand I guess answers that question...pay more for less features......but the simple answer.... people like it!

plan-b
09-03-2010, 8:26 PM
Yeah, the "chicks dig short barrels" part convinced me.

Gundam
09-03-2010, 10:20 PM
Length does matter for chicks. However in this case, the shorter, the higher the sex appeal.

Onlyincali
09-03-2010, 10:29 PM
WTF is on the top of that AR three posts up?

beauregard
09-03-2010, 11:35 PM
WTF is on the top of that AR three posts up?

Garage door opener.

Beau, you of all people shouldn't be talking about extra stuff hanging off the weapon.

Dude, that's only common knowledge on the other forum.

Mista Fosta
09-03-2010, 11:47 PM
BELIEVE IT

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss111/denimtalk/LBCstudios-com.jpg

What is the thing that looks like you strapped an oversized I-pod to the top of your rifle?

vta
09-04-2010, 12:41 AM
WTF is on the top of that AR three posts up?

What is the thing that looks like you strapped an oversized I-pod to the top of your rifle?

AN/PEQ-2. An IR laser pointer/illuminator. For night vision mode on the Aimpoint T-1. jeffu must have been out hunting owls.

if you need to ask, you can't afford it.

actually, i didn't need to ask and i still can't afford it.

Cokebottle
09-04-2010, 1:16 AM
The distance from the gas port to the muzzle is shorter. as the bullet passes the gas port hole the gas behind the bullet fills the gas tube, as the bullet leaves the muzzle the pressure in the gas tube drops..this is dwell. the longer the barrel is past the gas port, the longer the dwell. a 11" or 14.5 barrel has a better dwell time then a 16" barrel. as will a 16" barrel with a gas port farther out toward the end of the muzzle (middy).
What's your opinion on a mid-length 14.5"?
I'm debating right now, and have been leaning toward the middy... but is there enough dwell time?

vta
09-04-2010, 1:18 AM
What's your opinion on a mid-length 14.5"?
I'm debating right now, and have been leaning toward the middy... but is there enough dwell time?

i was wondering the same thing. i am contemplating having my 16 inch middy cut down to 14.5 but then i also wonder why BCM doesnt make one. maybe they have a good reason?

God Bless The Mauser
09-04-2010, 1:49 AM
i was wondering the same thing. i am contemplating having my 16 inch middy cut down to 14.5 but then i also wonder why BCM doesnt make one. maybe they have a good reason?

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-14-5-Mid-Length-Group-s/135.htm

Mista Fosta
09-04-2010, 2:23 AM
AN/PEQ-2. An IR laser pointer/illuminator. For night vision mode on the Aimpoint T-1. jeffu must have been out hunting owls.

if you need to ask, you aren't mall ninja enough.

actually, i didn't need to ask and i still can't afford it.


Fixed for ya. :)

I can afford it just fine though. Just no interest in having it.

Hoop
09-04-2010, 9:16 AM
I can appreciate the benefits of the shorter barrel when it comes to military or LE applications, but I don't quite understand it for the average citizen here in CA. Outside of CA, I can even see why someone would want it, just cause it's actually realistic to get the SBR stamp. Heck, I'd do it for cool factor alone. But since we have to have neutered rifles anyway, I'm not grasping the benefit. After you stick on the longer muzzle brake, you only seem to chop off about an inch, but you also lose an inch and a half of rifling.

So why the attraction?

I don't see how the 14.5 is somehow WAY more mobile than a 16 for LEO or Mil applications. I think people just go for it because the military uses that length, but IIRC the military (navy I think?) settled on that because 12 didn't give them enough accuracy.

Also, a 14.5 with a pinned flash hider is 16, that's how they get away with not having a stamp for it. So in the end they have a 16 anyways.

Hoop
09-04-2010, 9:18 AM
A better question would be "why do people buy 10/30 mags?"

Yeah I ran into a guy who spent 30something dollars on one 10/30 pmag. To each his own.

RRichie09
09-04-2010, 9:36 AM
Also, a 14.5 with a pinned flash hider is 16, that's how they get away with not having a stamp for it. So in the end they have a 16 anyways.

I don't understand this logic. So if you buy a 16 you won't put on a flash hider?

If you go 14.5 you rifle will be 1.25-1.5 inches shorter than a 16.

CrazyJeep
09-04-2010, 9:38 AM
14.5" barrel allows an attachment of a bayonet too. :D

Do 16" middys allow it? I know 16" with carbine gas don't.

Rogu3
09-04-2010, 9:41 AM
Wish i could have this (http://www.autoweapons.com/photos09/apr/lwrc.html) [/tears]

Hoop
09-04-2010, 11:53 AM
I don't understand this logic. So if you buy a 16 you won't put on a flash hider?

If you go 14.5 you rifle will be 1.25-1.5 inches shorter than a 16.

Not always - it depends on what flash hiders you have on each one. I have a 14.5 and it measures a little over 16 while my stag measures 17. The 14.5 does look a little better IMO but it's not a dealbreaker.

Also, both of those rifles are within 1/2" overall.

So if you want a 14.5 that's fine, but you aren't really getting something that is that much smaller than a 16 because of the laws we live under.

RRichie09
09-04-2010, 11:58 AM
Not always - it depends on what flash hiders you have on each one. I have a 14.5 and it measures a little over 16 while my stag measures 17. The 14.5 does look a little better IMO but it's not a dealbreaker.

Also, both of those rifles are within 1/2" overall.

So if you want a 14.5 that's fine, but you aren't really getting something that is that much smaller than a 16 because of the laws we live under.

I guess I'm trying to compare rifles with the same flash hider.

Either way I agree with you. I was faced with the 14.5 or 16 inch barrel question and I chose 16 and I would chose 16 again. But now that I have a 16 I would totally get a 14.5 haha, then a 12.5 when we (CA) are finally allowed to join the USofA.

Cokebottle
09-04-2010, 1:23 PM
Also, a 14.5 with a pinned flash hider is 16, that's how they get away with not having a stamp for it. So in the end they have a 16 anyways.
And a 16 with a non-pinned FH is still 18 (most 16's are actually somewhere over 16.25)... so there is still a 2" difference... doesn't matter whether the FH is pinned or not, unless you've done a 16" "post-ban" build with no muzzle attachment point, or are running only a thread protector.

Cokebottle
09-04-2010, 1:25 PM
14.5" barrel allows an attachment of a bayonet too. :D

Do 16" middys allow it? I know 16" with carbine gas don't.
Ya...
20" rifle, 16" middy, or 14.5" carbine.

slowxturtle
09-04-2010, 10:13 PM
I would like to cut down my 16" and permanently pin on a vortex flash hider. Anyone know a local place in California, or somewhere that is recommended that I ship my upper to to get this one?

RRichie09
09-04-2010, 10:13 PM
I would like to cut down my 16" and permanently pin on a vortex flash hider. Anyone know a local place in California, or somewhere that is recommended that I ship my upper to to get this one?

randel at ar15barrels.com

He is located in the pasadena/burbank area.

slowxturtle
09-04-2010, 11:11 PM
randel at ar15barrels.com

He is located in the pasadena/burbank area.

Wow, thanks alot!!! I am in that area too!!! Perfect. I owe you one.

noveskePL
09-04-2010, 11:14 PM
at 300 yards, how much accuracy is jeopardized using a 14.5 versus a 16???

Toast
09-04-2010, 11:19 PM
Because I love the look of "commando" styled AR's, I watched a lot of movies as a kid I guess. And 16" barrels look funky with carbine gas systems.

NeoWeird
09-04-2010, 11:44 PM
at 300 yards, how much accuracy is jeopardized using a 14.5 versus a 16???

Not even a real valid question - length as a general measurement has very little bearing on accuracy. In that regard it's like asking what will get you to your destination faster - a car or a truck. They both do the job, but they have little to do with how it's actually done. The car may have a higher top speed but if the driver is taking their sweet time then top speed goes out the window. The shooter themselves have more to do with it than anything else. Even if using the same shooter, other more important factors come into play such as barrel manufacturer, barrel diameters, barrel materials, twist rate, burn rates, etc. Even with all things equal, there are some 'hocus pocus' properties to barrel making that can make two barrels from the same batch shoot very differently.

The ONLY absolute that comes with more barrel length (and all other things being equal) is the bullet will leave the barrel faster which will equate to longer possible ranges. But even that has a limit as it can get to the point where friction in the barrel starts to overcome the bullet and it actually slows down. You also start getting barrel droop and whip on excessively long barrels and their long range capabilities drop off. So again, the only thing those two extra inches do is add <100 fps in velocity to the bullet going near three times the speed of sound.



As for the OP, there is NO one mold to fit all activities. I personally think lifted trucks are stupid for the 95% of people in California who don't use them for anything other than going to the grocery store. I never was one to get into muscle cars. I never got into football and don't understand why people attach to certain teams closer than their family. But people do and they have that choice to do so because it makes them happy. When it comes to shooting, a hunter's ideal of perfect weapon setups would be that balance between power and handiness and enough accuracy to hit a target the size of a car door across a football field. For someone into long range shooting, their ideal setups might be squeezing every tiny bit of accuracy out of their gun even if it means it looks like their holding a Nerf gun in a clown suit in a lamaze class. For someone who does IPSC shooting speed may beat all and they don't care if their guns would not be as effective as another gun for personal defense so long as they can keep their shots on the target.

What I'm trying to say is just because it doesn't fit within the scope of what you feel is ideal or even reasonable, doesn't mean it doesn't have a purpose. 99% of the people on these forums will never use their guns in defense against another person - but there are a good number of people here who take classes several times a year sharpening those skills. Some of those classes can really benefit from a shorter barrel. You'd be surprised at how much easier it is to get out of a car and NOT catch your seat belt when you're holding a 14.5" as opposed to a 16". Those 1.5" allow those people to get closer to barricades and maneuver around them more easily. Etc etc etc. Some of these guys are doing stuff more high speed than most of the military and LE community and they're doing it for the sheer fun and happiness it brings them.

If it benefits the military and LEO guys doing similar stuff, and it's legal, why wouldn't the people who enjoy that type of shooting do it?

ar15barrels
09-05-2010, 11:20 AM
AN/PEQ-2. An IR laser pointer/illuminator. For night vision mode on the Aimpoint T-1. jeffu must have been out hunting owls.

It's definetly illegal to hunt with an illuminator attached to the gun.
It's probably illegal to hunt owls too!

ar15barrels
09-05-2010, 11:25 AM
randel at ar15barrels.com

He is located in the pasadena/burbank area.

huh?
Who moved my shop? :eek:

Crap, now I gotta drive to my shop?
It was so much more convienent when I could just walk out my front door in Culver City and open my garage...

I just checked and my shop is still here in Culver City. :D

ar15barrels
09-05-2010, 11:26 AM
at 300 yards, how much accuracy is jeopardized using a 14.5 versus a 16???

none.
The ammo used will make a HUGE difference though.

RRichie09
09-05-2010, 11:38 AM
huh?
Who moved my shop? :eek:

Crap, now I gotta drive to my shop?
It was so much more convienent when I could just walk out my front door in Culver City and open my garage...

I just checked and my shop is still here in Culver City. :D

Oh ****! haha I'm sorry man. I will make a mental note of it and next time I tell people I will tell them you're in Carson... oh wait that's not right.

Culver City, Culver City, Culver City, Culver City, Culver City.

Cokebottle
09-05-2010, 4:10 PM
none.
The ammo used will make a HUGE difference though.
Hey Randall...

I never got a response back from Dieselpower on this.
Your opinion?
What's your opinion on a mid-length 14.5"?
I'm debating right now, and have been leaning toward the middy... but is there enough dwell time?

ar15barrels
09-05-2010, 4:24 PM
What's your opinion on a mid-length 14.5"?
I'm debating right now, and have been leaning toward the middy... but is there enough dwell time?

14.5" midlengths are good to go with the proper gas port diameter and buffer weight.

Cokebottle
09-05-2010, 4:51 PM
14.5" midlengths are good to go with the proper gas port diameter and buffer weight.
Excellent.

I remember you were talking about failures of the M4 vs the M16 and commending that the middy 16" barrels tended to correct those issues... but that got me thinking that since the true M4 is 14.5, was wondering if the middy helped or not.

So, of the available barrels with 1/9 twist, who do you recommend (for both 14.5 and 20)? All I'm really seeing is YHM, RRA, Stag (not sure if they have a 14.5), and AR15Hardware sometimes has some listed under "Citadel"

ar15barrels
09-05-2010, 6:18 PM
I don't recommend a carbine gas system or any length longer than 12.5".
As for 14.5" midlengths, you are very limited.
For a 20" 1:9 barrel, look at Colt, Armalite and RRA.

Cokebottle
09-05-2010, 6:21 PM
I don't recommend a carbine gas system or any length longer than 12.5".
As for 14.5" midlengths, you are very limited.
For a 20" 1:9 barrel, look at Colt, Armalite and RRA.
RRA is one that I've been considering... I thought there were issues with quality/lack of testing... or is that just the case with all of the available 1/9, and maybe I should just go with a 1/7 and stay away from the 55gr ammo?

vta
09-05-2010, 6:26 PM
It's definetly illegal to hunt with an illuminator attached to the gun.
It's probably illegal to hunt owls too!

:) did i just exposed jeffu's illegal taxidermy owl smuggling business :eek:

vta
09-05-2010, 6:30 PM
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-14-5-Mid-Length-Group-s/135.htm

i remembered shortly after my post that i it was the BFH version of their barrel that i couldnt find. i ended up with the 16 inch BFH middy and so far very happy with it.

vta
09-05-2010, 6:44 PM
Fixed for ya. :)

I can afford it just fine though. Just not mall ninja enough to have it.

right back at cha! :)

ar15barrels
09-05-2010, 6:44 PM
RRA is one that I've been considering... I thought there were issues with quality/lack of testing... or is that just the case with all of the available 1/9, and maybe I should just go with a 1/7 and stay away from the 55gr ammo?

"Lack of testing" is an issue made up by companies that are trying to justify their higher prices.

Let's say company S makes a part.
Companis A & C both buy that very same part.
Company A puts the part in a package and sells it just as they received it from company S.
Company C sells to the govt and is required to do all sorts of testing to prove that their parts meet the specs.
Company C does the testing and 99.3% of the parts pass.
They discard the failing 0.7% of parts that fail.
The testing is expensive so company C must sell their parts for twice as much as company A in order to make a profit.

Follow the path of the parts backwards and you realize that you could buy the same part from either company A or company C.
The extra that you are paying with company C is to be assured that your part meets all the specs.
Remember that the parts all came from company S and 99.3% of company C parts passed testing.
It's therefore safe to assume that 99.3% of company A parts woud also pass testing.

Add to the fact that company A has a warranty that will replace a bad part and it's plain to see that company A is the better value IF you are willing to accept the 99.3% risk for the reduced price.

Almostryan3
09-05-2010, 8:26 PM
Because that 1.5" makes a difference, ask any woman ;)

Assuming you have the same FH on a 16" and 14.5"...

idbstyler
09-07-2010, 7:54 PM
Can you explain more on this please.


The ammo used will make a HUGE difference though.

ar15barrels
09-07-2010, 8:13 PM
Can you explain more on this please.

Quality ammo with match grade bullets will shoot much tighter groups than blasting ammo, regardless of barrel length.

idbstyler
09-07-2010, 9:09 PM
Okay. I cant seem to get a straight answer from anyone. I'm building and upper right now. I have JD Upper Receiver and I want to put a 14.5" Mid Length Daniel Defense Cold Hammer Forged Barrel with a permanent FH on it. Do you see any flaws in this setup?

Quality ammo with match grade bullets will shoot much tighter groups than blasting ammo, regardless of barrel length.

Cokebottle
09-07-2010, 9:56 PM
Okay. I cant seem to get a straight answer from anyone. I'm building and upper right now. I have JD Upper Receiver and I want to put a 14.5" Mid Length Daniel Defense Cold Hammer Forged Barrel with a permanent FH on it. Do you see any flaws in this setup?
That's one of the best barrels you can get, and there's not a single thing wrong with the JD upper.

Combine that with a quality BCG and you'll have a rockin' rig.

IrishPirate
09-07-2010, 10:02 PM
The smaller the barrel, the bigger your ________ :D

it just does.....
1E6IfdUJn6s

Alex$
09-07-2010, 10:11 PM
Why stop at 14.5"? Build a 10" and be happier. :cool2:

ar15barrels
09-07-2010, 11:11 PM
Do you see any flaws in this setup?

no.

idbstyler
09-08-2010, 10:33 AM
Sounds god. I just bought BCM FA BCG so I think I'm set.

That's one of the best barrels you can get, and there's not a single thing wrong with the JD upper.

Combine that with a quality BCG and you'll have a rockin' rig.

Mojocava
09-16-2010, 12:00 AM
Can someone clarify if a Vortex FH on a 14.5 would somewhat increase accuracy due to the Vortex's design going with the rifling of the barrel? I read this online somewhere is this true?

NiteQwill
09-16-2010, 12:08 AM
Can someone clarify if a Vortex FH on a 14.5 would somewhat increase accuracy due to the Vortex's design going with the rifling of the barrel? I read this online somewhere is this true?

AFAIK, no.

Although I've heard different stories for bolt guns.

Cobra Tactical
09-16-2010, 12:45 AM
14.5 is true mil spec.