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View Full Version : Cal gunowners need backbone


Benellishooter
05-12-2006, 8:51 AM
Thanks to the DOJ memo of the week, so many of the Calguns "off-list" lower owners are scrambling for muzzlebrakes and special non-pistol grips.

Their memo means nothing.

If you have a bolted in fixed mag, your gun can not accept a detachable mag. Plain and simple. They can try to define "capacity to accept" all they want. But, they are wrong.

I can define Rosie O'Donnell to be a Victoria Secret supermodel all I want. But, that don't make it so.

P.S. Next week when they send out their new memo your gun needs to be hot pink, will all of you scramble to Walmart for spray paint?

Jedi
05-12-2006, 8:57 AM
P.S. Next week when they send out their new memo your gun needs to be hot pink, will all of you scramble to Walmart for spray paint?

Yes! I will also include "Hello Kitty" in place of my "Superior Arms" logo.

Satex
05-12-2006, 9:18 AM
Not to patronize you, but for all those who say "it's just a memo" I say, then put your money where your mouth is and go out and shoot your rifles. Once the first unlucky shooter gets pulled over, we will really see if this memo is "just a memo" or it has teeth. And yes, I know this is exactly what the DOJ wanted to do - instill a debilitating doubt within us. Some of us cannot afford a criminal process on our records - it will affect our work/lives in unacceptable ways.
Personally, I don't want you, or any other law abiding citizen and member here to get pulled over. That is why I hope the NRA or CRPA will take this issue up with the DOJ. I myself am undecided when I will take my rifle out to the shooting range. At the moment, it is configured in what I believe is 100% compliance with the DOJ’s stance, yet it is so unclear that I am not confident I would not somehow get in trouble with a bored DA.

I am also an owner of a “CA legal” SKS that now I am not sure is legal due to the permanency definition of the memo.
A few days ago, someone brought up an interesting point on SKSboards. CA requires the grenade launcher removed from the Yugo SKS. Does this violate the C&R status of the rifle making it federally illegal? This would be ironic if the SKS entered the country legally, then changed to make it CA legal, but at the same time it became federally illegal!

Benellishooter
05-12-2006, 9:28 AM
I am going out Saturday with my collapsible stocked, flash suppressor, 10 round bolted in magazine off list AR style rifle this weekend.

Sometimes you just have to stand your ground.

I will carry a copy of the laws in a binder. I stand more of a chance of getting abducted by aliens than having a cop stop me and debate me about the "capacity to accept a detachable magazine". Heck, 99 out of 100 cops probably don't even know about the whole off list lower thing to begin with.

No jury will convict you for not bolting in your magazine the approved way. I am tired of living in fear. I am going to shoot my rifle the way I know it is legal.

Bling Bling 2.0
05-12-2006, 9:38 AM
Well look at the stakes. Are you ready to never be able to own a firearm again if this thing makes it through the screwed up legal system? Do you have that much faith in our justice system? I agree about your point and the memo is just a memo and it's WEAK position. But I'm not willing to go to jail if even for a day. Remember local DA's see us as more dangerous than violent criminals, illegal immigrants, rapists, and child molestors combined. They will stop at nothing to try and take away our rights. There are other things we can do to help our cause.

If you feel comfortable in your position, I commend you on your bravery and pride. But I won't be touching my lowers until the weather changes. Too much risk for too little gain.

Benellishooter
05-12-2006, 9:48 AM
Bling, I would respectfully submit to you that you are already "in jail". I am willing to take all the above risks to exercise my legal rights.

Unknownassailant
05-12-2006, 9:54 AM
If we wanted to play it safe, we'd get out of shooting altogether and sell all our guns. For some of us thats not an option, and shooting our fixed mag off-listed lowers is the line we're willing to walk, for better or for worse.

CALI-gula
05-12-2006, 9:56 AM
Bling, I would respectfully submit to you that you are already "in jail". I am willing to take all the above risks to exercise my legal rights.


I don't think it is as big a risk as you might think; I have been taking my Roberti-Roos/SB23 items (and not all are rifles) to several shooting ranges for several years, and have never been asked by anyone for documentation or whether they are legally owned, registered or anything else. That lack of inquisition is the norm, and neither range officers or police officers, LEO or otherwise have ever cared, even when they are present.

Most often LEO just look from afar with a "hey, that's cool" grin; the closest I came to a one-on-one exchange while my AW items were with me at the range, was when an LEO whom I saw at the range shooting a couple of 1911s while I was shooting my AW stuff. I think he was a LA Sheriff - uniform looked like it, could have been CHP. I had already put back my "AW" items in their cases, and had moved on to shooting my Super Six Limited (not a Ruger) .45-70 six-shot revolver, before leaving for the day. He walked over between my reloading, and while he did NOT ask to see my AW items, he was more fascinated by my Super Six Limited. So, I let him shoot 6 cartridges out of it and he thought it was great. I gave him the run-down on it, history of the company and who made it, etc., then we then talked more about his guns than mine.

While I am there with my "AW" items, I am usually in the company of several other shooters at the line or in their stall with their Roberti-Roos/SB23 items. It's hardly any risk at all. It has become very commonplace and nobody cares.

I think Benellishooter is right; don't contain yourself to a self-made jail. Nothing has actually changed with the law, and the memo changes nothing. Carry on! Be bold! I think it is our best approach to go with the law as we have interpreted "fixed magazine" and influence as many LEO (should they ask) to see the logic and permanence of our interpretation of "fixed magazine" so they become comfortable, in full acceptance, and aligned with our rational thought with the permanence of the Bolt-type conversions to lock in the magazines. Overexpose them to rational thought and real world tangibility as opposed to their being influenced by some desk-wart mold pontificating from his mahogany block but having no useful real-world knowledge of firearms, a one Mr. Bill Lockyer.


.

tenpercentfirearms
05-12-2006, 10:07 AM
For those of you in occupied territory, I don't necessarily blame you. However, I live in Kern County. I will not be being prosecuted by my DA over this. I know the law and I am following it. This new memo is just like the last memo, full of more holes than swiss cheese. Stand up for your rights and rest assured, the first test case will get a lot of financial backing from a whole lot of lower owners.

LOW2000
05-12-2006, 10:11 AM
Is there actually an AW registry that LEO's can check to see if your serial number is in, or can they only check to see if the weapon is legally owned by you?

Forever-A-Soldier
05-12-2006, 10:16 AM
I agree with Benellishooter; it has always amazed me how so many gun owners (on this board and others) fret the littlest things. Even the rules here about not posting anything illegal, I question. Now I'm not saying go ahead and turn a weapon into full auto and wreck havoc and destruction. No I'm talking about just plain old "civil disobedience." Liberals, leftists, illegals, etc. jump at the chance to thumb their noses at the LAW and they get away with it 99% of the time. But for some reasons gun owners hide like little mice when confronted by possible legal problems. I for one have NOT registered all my AWs: some I moved out of state, some I've GPS'd out in the desert and others are converted based upon the law. Diversify, Diversify, Diversify as any investor will tell you. I NEVER keep all my eggs in one basket and that goes for guns too! I'm sick and tired of this communist state forcing their ubsurd rules and regs. I've tried to comply, I really have, but the time has come where I can't do it anymore.

What are all of you going to do when they outlaw handguns? Then a couple of years later we are like Washington DC? When are you going to draw the line? Now I know that everyone has a different limit. Some will say that I give in too much. That may be true, but I think I've come to a good point. California will never get all of my guns no matter what 'cause their juristiction ends at the border. Having been on the "gun search and seize" end in Iraq, I know how DIFFICULT it is. (And subsequently I know just how to hide them too! :D )

Gun owners in California need to make a stand and say, "Screw the anti-gunners I'm drawing the line TODAY! " I'm going to take my legal "registered" AWs and my fixed mag ARs to the range and shoot them. Plain and simple. If a cop wants to arrest me because HE/SHE [I]thinks/I] they know what the law is, well so be it. I'm asking for a public defender, and an extention and everything else to cost this state as much money for them to run their justice system to try and convict a decorated war vet with NO CRIMINAL RECORD for exercising his U.S. constitutional rights. If the DA has that much of a hardon to spend his/her time trying to convict ME instead of child molestors, rapists, robbers, killers, etc. then this State is more screwed up than we can imagine.

We can't get any of us to agree on what the law says exactly about Off-List lowers, fixed or non-fixed mags, etc.... you think they'll find 12 jurors to find me guilty of a confusing and poorly written law? I don't think so. It's not worth cops time, the DAs time, the States time or my time. Imagine if 30,000 of us did this?

Take a lead from the Civil Rights movement and grow some "Nuts" people. Be a Patriot and say, "ENOUGH!"

F.A.S. Out

Omega13device
05-12-2006, 10:19 AM
No one has ever asked me about my SB23 reg'd rifle, and I've seen plenty of people at the ranges with pinned mags and nobody has ever bothered them either. When I get my lowers built up I will be taking them to the range too. If you think LEOs have time to worry about some stupid definition for a detachable mag then you are being ultra paranoid.

30Cal
05-12-2006, 10:34 AM
. Some of us cannot afford a criminal process on our records - it will affect our work/lives in unacceptable ways.

FWIW, they don't need a memo to introduce you to the criminal process. If a LEO want's to rain on your parade, it's probably going to happen.

CALI-gula
05-12-2006, 10:36 AM
No one has ever asked me about my SB23 reg'd rifle, and I've seen plenty of people at the ranges with pinned mags and nobody has ever bothered them either. When I get my lowers built up I will be taking them to the range too. If you think LEOs have time to worry about some stupid definition for a detachable mag then you are being ultra paranoid.

As I wrote the same, and second that! I say continue on, as normal, since the memo changes nothing about SB23. Let's further influence the LEO to accept OUR prevailing definition of "fixed magazine". Let's be as visible as possible with our "pinned" magazines. Large numbers are overwhelming and can influence a definition to our liking. Eventually feedback will get back to the DOJ that their attempt to nullify pinned magazines as being "fixed magazines" is futile, and the permanence we have in mind will overrule.

CowtownBallin
05-12-2006, 10:45 AM
That is why I hope the NRA or CRPA will take this issue up with the DOJ.

Satex, I'm not directing this at you, but at people with this mentality.

Here's the problem. You'd like to enjoy your full gun rights but are unwilling to sacrifice anything for them. You want someone else to fight your battle for you and win. Sure, the NRA and CRPA are here to help, but that doesn't mean the rest of us should bury our heads in the sand and hope for the best.

If doing some work is too much to ask, then maybe you should reconsider being a gun-owner and pick up something less demanding, like skiing or boating. Get on the horn with your local representatives, donate money to the CRPA, write letters, do something other than complain on gun forums. Just like they say, if you don't vote, you can't complain. Same applies here, if you did nothing, you deserve whatever you get, and nothing more.

C.G.
05-12-2006, 10:45 AM
Is there actually an AW registry that LEO's can check to see if your serial number is in, or can they only check to see if the weapon is legally owned by you?

Yes, there is.

Benellishooter
05-12-2006, 10:46 AM
We are living in an age of government induced FEAR.

The bureaucrats have no more good ideas on how they can improve our lives. Therefore, to maintain control, they need to make us AFRAID. This helps them justify their jobs and reason for existing.

Think about it. We are actually obsessive about our fear of terrorists. They are everywhere. Yet nowhere. And, as a result, government power and control over our lives is growing by leaps and bounds.

We even started a war (Iraq) based on FEAR of what they might do with weapons they didn't have. And, we are about to start another war (Iran) based on similar FEARS.

The end result is they keep their jobs and get more control. The truth is that the facts behind the fears are EXTREMELY exaggerated.

Q: If George Bush really believed that the terrorists were intent on delivering another attack, do you think we would have the illegal alien problem and open borders we have now 5 years after 911?

CowtownBallin
05-12-2006, 10:52 AM
My vote is to sack the government and start all over again.
Cleanse this place, Cambodian style :D
JK about the Cambodian part though

~DEVO~
05-12-2006, 10:52 AM
We are living in an age of government induced FEAR.


Correct, like this crap...


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=33866

shopkeep
05-12-2006, 10:59 AM
There's good reason for any gun owner in California to be afraid. All we have going for us is hopefully some generous gun owners who will chip in for legal defense.

The gun grabbers have COMPLETE AND TOTAL CONTROL OF THE STATE!!!

They can exercise their power in the legislative, judicial, and executive branch any time they deem neccessary to enact further bans. And they often do! Just look how gun control superstars like Paul Koretz enact ban after ban with little to no opposition.

They also control all law enforcement and can easily throw you into jail and strip you of your freedoms and rights.

This whole thing is only really happening at all right now because they have committed a COLLOSSAL **** up with vague legislation. But be careful because this has caused them to be backed into a corner and a cornered rat has nothing to lose!

Omega13device
05-12-2006, 11:00 AM
Q: If George Bush really believed that the terrorists were intent on delivering another attack, do you think we would have the illegal alien problem and open borders we have now 5 years after 911?
I totally agree with Benellishooter. In fact, the illegal alien "problem" is also a fear-based tactic to take your mind off the fact that things in Iraq aren't going well. Nothing has changed in years and yet all of a sudden it's a "problem"? This is classic Karl Rove manipulation.

Benellishooter
05-12-2006, 11:12 AM
Shopkeep, you are right on one hand. They have been able to get their gun control agenda through by playing off the FEARS of the citizens. They are brainwashed to FEAR our evil assault weapons, high capacity feeding devices, ect.. These fears are unreasonable by any standard. A trained person can do as much damage with a lever action carbine as any AR15 Ubertactical rifle.

But, our fear of getting thrown in the slammer is unreasonable too. There are thousands upon thousands of guns in this state that don't meet the letter of existing laws. Yet, you hear of very few people busted for these crimes. Most gun prosecutions are "add on" offenses. I am not saying to go break the law on purpose. But, I am not going to stay up at night worrying about whether my fixed magazine is "fixed" enough.

FEAR. It is all they have to offer us.

... I'll bet you didn't know 911 was self inflicted (invest 12 minutes)?

http://www.archive.org/download/SecretEvilOf911/SecretEvilOf911-80kb.wmv

Chopper
05-12-2006, 11:40 AM
I took my new ar's out last weekend. And I"m taking them out again
this weekend. Nobody at the range even raises an eyebrow!

LOW2000
05-12-2006, 11:57 AM
As more and more people take out their fixed mag AR's, people will again become used to them, then when more and more of those start showing up without the mags pinned, people will become used to that as well.

Give me an inch...

Bling Bling 2.0
05-12-2006, 12:05 PM
Bling, I would respectfully submit to you that you are already "in jail". I am willing to take all the above risks to exercise my legal rights.

As I said I have a great respect for your persistence and confidence. And you sound like you've got a good plan carrying the legal docs.

Well I do have a registered AR, so there is no real need for me to take out my lowers. But even if I didn't, I'd still keep 'em locked up and unbuilt. Since most of us are gunowners few have probably actually been to jail. I haven't been either, but I'm telling you from friends on both sides of the bars that it's a place you don't want to be. Not to mention the $$ it will cost you to get out unscathed and to have the capacity to purchase even a .22 rifle again.

To me it's not worth all of this just to shoot 10 rounds and then break open and reload. I'm not being coerced by fear, I'm just being reasonable.

I too have never been approached at a range or pulled over with AW's in the car. I transport and use them legally with full paperwork.

12voltguy
05-12-2006, 12:12 PM
Seems most of you are in such fear..............why not just get a bolt action? Why the need to get an AR & not use it? If you are that much in fear of jonny law, stay away from anything questioable,, LOL

tenpercentfirearms
05-12-2006, 2:10 PM
They can exercise their power in the legislative, judicial, and executive branch any time they deem neccessary to enact further bans. And they often do! Just look how gun control superstars like Paul Koretz enact ban after ban with little to no opposition.

They also control all law enforcement and can easily throw you into jail and strip you of your freedoms and rights.They don't control everything Shopkeep. They don't control Kern County or its DA. They don't control all of the judicial because we got part of the Harrott decision to go our way to be in this place in the first place. They don't control the governator because even though he sold us out on AB 50, he stayed strong on the ammo bills and a few others.

What the DOJ is trying to do is intimidate and control us. Either 978.20(a) is the definition of a magazine or an unsigned, undated DOJ memo is. Don't get a public defender, have us hire you a good lawyer and lets see how far this thing gets. This is just like the first memo. Eventually people realized no one was getting arrested and no one was going to jail and we went on doing what we were always doing. Do that again. The DOJ has lost all credibility telling us there is going to be a catagory 4 and that they are going to list in the near future. Bullcrap. They lied. Well maybe they changed their mind, which is just as good because it means they don't think things through. Now they face making every SKS in this state an assault weapon and their stepping in the poop continues.

FOLLOW THE LAW! DOJ memos are not law. The last memo never made it to law enforcement and this one won't either because anyone with half a brain knows they will get their butt handed to them in court.

Go do what you have to do. Go do the right thing. If you get arrested, all you have to do is get someone to post on here you are in legal trouble over this and you will have plenty of cash to get one of the best gun lawyers in the state. You are not going to spend time behind bars and it won't break the bank. What it will do will make you a hero that all freedom loving Americans and your grandchildren will look up to.

I got nothing else better to do, let them come arrest me. I appreciated the publicity being the first guy to sell lowers got me and I would appreciate the business of being the first 978.20(a) court challengee too.

And I am not just talking smack from behind a key board, you can find pictures of me riding all over the state with a fixed mag off list lower! ;)

Now DOJ, don't mistake that as a direct afront to you. This isn't personal and I don't hate you. You just keep putting out dumb memos that have no backbone and it is directly effecting my business. I am not trying to call you out as a challenge to stop me from everything, I am just saying we know your memo is BS. I don't want you to come down and try to shut down my shop on some other unrelated charges. So just update the list and lets all move on with our lives already. This should have been over in "two weeks". Bill Lockyer do your job and blame it on the legislature. Continuing to let this thing ride will only make you look worse later on. We promise we will leave you alone when you give us what we want. Heck, we might even vote for you. Well probably not.

MotoGuy
05-12-2006, 2:24 PM
Is there actually an AW registry that LEO's can check to see if your serial number is in, or can they only check to see if the weapon is legally owned by you?

Also when a LEO does a routine check on your name, it will pull up a list of all the firearms registered to you.

The other day I was at my friends department, he entered my name into the computer, it came back with the normal stuff like address, history, and a list of all the handguns I own.

Bling Bling 2.0
05-12-2006, 2:32 PM
I think one of the things we should do is start a fund raiser for legal fees. Even if we don't open it to the public we can all get together and have a pancake breakfast fundraiser for lawyers fees. I know that I'd lay down some $ (I don't have much but I could come up with some) to win our side.

The DOJ trolls that are reading are invited too.

sac7000
05-12-2006, 2:58 PM
Also when a LEO does a routine check on your name, it will pull up a list of all the firearms registered to you.

The other day I was at my friends department, he entered my name into the computer, it came back with the normal stuff like address, history, and a list of all the handguns I own.

And you just know that when you go over the magic number of handguns a " Flag " pops up and dispatch notifies a patrol unit to bring you in for questioning. Man, this is scary stuff! I'm freakin' out... I am going to sell all my guns and go back to selling flowers and incense on a street corner. arrggh..

sac7000
05-12-2006, 3:10 PM
I think one of the things we should do is start a fund raiser for legal fees. Even if we don't open it to the public we can all get together and have a pancake breakfast fundraiser for lawyers fees. I know that I'd lay down some $ (I don't have much but I could come up with some) to win our side.

The DOJ trolls that are reading are invited too.

And I know just the guy who could be the overseer of the funds... "Mr TPF, you are wanted on the white courtesy phone please"

Got my checkbook out...

AS45-70
05-12-2006, 3:51 PM
I talked with my cop friend and he really didnt care about the OLLs. Its just a crap shoot, if you bump into the wrong type of cop it could turn into a nightmare. The fear is bumping into that cop.

We have complied with the current law reguarding the detachable mag and i dont feel we could be convicted of breaking the law in that respect. I would feel comfortable shooting it anywhere. My fear comes from the one cop who sees the grey area as black or white, he then confistates my weapon pending an investigation. Now i am forced to defend myself in court even though i will most likely win my case. Thats right, i said WIN...but at what cost. I dont make enough $ to buy guns and defend myself in court :)

I dont think breaking the law is the issue, i feel we meet the current requirements of the law as they are written today. Pinned mag, tool required and ten round mags max. The fear is to become that first person forced to give up soooo much, most of us couldnt afford to do it.

Until the Law states perm fixed mag definition being welded! i will shoot my guns. If i get the one barney fife cop that sees only blk or white then i guess it was always my calling to be the test case. Wouldnt it be ironic if i win the CA lotto only to use that $ to defend myself in court agaisnt the state that gave it to me.

Wish me luck i got tickets for tonight :)

artherd
05-12-2006, 8:35 PM
Not to patronize you, but for all those who say "it's just a memo" I say, then put your money where your mouth is and go out and shoot your rifles.
I was probally the second (maybe first?) person in the state to do exactly that. I will continue to do so. I know the law and have the time, $ and pissy attitude to defend myself. I will not be intimidated or cajoled.

hoffmang
05-12-2006, 9:07 PM
Kids,

If you're worried, write a hypothetically framed letter to your local DA. Tell him DOJ has been saying that local DAs might not agree, but you'd like to build a fixed 10 round magazine. Point out that the design you're going to go with would require an allen wrench to take apart and ask him what he/she thinks.

If you get an answer you don't like, we can point you at an attorney that can preemptively write the next letter that challenges the DA. In the end you're likely to end up with either a letter for your county or more proof that SB-23 is unconstitutionally vague.