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View Full Version : Memo, Perm~ Affixed and the obvious?


metalhead357
05-12-2006, 1:35 AM
Ummmmm,

I'm wondering if we've all overlooked the obvious folks. Might need a spec book if somebody has one laying around......


Here are some thoughts for those that cant get over the idea that it is just but a memo.......

The DOJ ok'd the Walter 22 dabacle with "permanatly" affixed with permanant locktite according to some; Silver solder according to others....
but THAT said......


Anyone happen to know offhand the temps needed for soldering, silver soldering and/or brazing VS. the temp at which a cast or forged reciever become vulnerable?

xenophobe
05-12-2006, 2:40 AM
Silver soldering, per ATF needs to be 1100 degrees. The nut on the P22's are supposedly red loctited?

If you own one of them that is not CA approved, you need to send it back to S&W to have fixed. There is no other legal remedy. The DOJ will call and ask S&W if they converted yours, and if you're not on that list, you're in trouble.

If you're asking for other reasons, I'll mind my own business. :p

gh429
05-12-2006, 3:08 AM
Wait is there an opinion regarding the Walthers / fixed mag / loctite? Or was their opinion simply "it needs to go back to S&W"?

metalhead357
05-12-2006, 7:02 AM
Silver soldering, per ATF needs to be 1100 degrees. The nut on the P22's are supposedly red loctited?

If you own one of them that is not CA approved, ..................If you're asking for other reasons, I'll mind my own business. :p

Nope, wish I had bought one back in the day; have two friends effected by this, one sold his out of state and the other snet his off~ I aint had a chance to inspect it yet......

As for the reason(s). My thoughts were waining towards just "how DOES one" permantly attach a mag without TOTALLY destroying an alumininiumimmmm reciever....wondering if soldering or brazing just might be an option....IF its below the threshold that it would cause damage to the reciever. I just cant imagine tig welding closed one of the OLL's.....:eek:

artherd
05-12-2006, 9:04 AM
The DOJ will call and ask S&W if they converted yours, and if you're not on that list, you're in trouble.
Potentially in trouble, yes. Convicted based on that 'evidence' alone? HELL NO. Not being on some 'list' at S&W is NOT A CRIME.

Nile
05-12-2006, 12:54 PM
[As for the reason(s). My thoughts were waining towards just "how DOES one" permantly attach a mag without TOTALLY destroying an alumininiumimmmm reciever....wondering if soldering or brazing just might be an option....IF its below the threshold that it would cause damage to the reciever. I just cant imagine tig welding closed one of the OLL's.....:eek:[/QUOTE]


The Valcan receiver has a epoxied mag. Can a mag be epoxied in, and at a later date Use a chemical to break down the epoxy and remove the mag. This way the receiver would comply with current law and reusable when a different configuration was needed.

metalhead357
05-12-2006, 4:59 PM
From reading alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll ll the 'round II" of the DOJ memo it sounds like they're telling people that glued, JB weld and epoxy are no-go's for a perm fix.......:mad:

I KNOW its just a memo.................

Just trying to think/plan ahead;) thus the question about brazing or soldering.......................

thmpr
05-12-2006, 5:43 PM
The memo has no standing what so ever. And I believe they will not be able to get a clear definition of the "The Capacity to accept or Permanent" any time soon.
Just enjoy your Sport conversion and any mag lock kit because they would have arrested someone by now with these kits.

xenophobe
05-12-2006, 6:32 PM
Potentially in trouble, yes. Convicted based on that 'evidence' alone? HELL NO. Not being on some 'list' at S&W is NOT A CRIME.

Well, in trouble as for having the heat put on you? Yes. I didn't say anything about prosecution or conviction. I didn't state it was a crime NOT to be on the list. Just that if you have one, get caught with it as an AW and it hasn't been 'fixed' at the factory, you may not get the chance to correct it. Most likely it will be confiscated, you may possibly have charges filed against you, but you probably wouldn't be convicted of anything unless you were doing something illegal at the time.

KLABruin
05-12-2006, 6:39 PM
Melting point of Al is 1220.58 F, but it will lose strength before it melts.

Not sure how much it will affect the strength of the receiver, but aluminum anneals at around 800 F. It wont, melt at that temp, but the atomic structure will become more crystalline: which I believe will make it harder, but also more brittle (which is a bad thing). So you probably want to stay well below 800 F.

Blacktail 8541
05-12-2006, 6:44 PM
It seems to me that every one is fixated on soldering the magazine to the reciever. Why wouldn't it work to just silver solder the set screw in one of semi auto sams mag locks? You would meet the intent of the DOJ because you would have to machine the part off and replace it with a new one to restore it to a detatchable mag status. And that is a very obvious take on the time and tool definition. Plus you do not mess with the integrity of the heat treating of the reciever. I also know that this is just a memo.

KLABruin
05-12-2006, 6:55 PM
I agree. That seems like a reasonable solution. I was thinking of doing the same, but with epoxy.

artherd
05-12-2006, 9:46 PM
The crux of my argument here is that one could easially have a "fixed" P-22, and still not be on some unregulated list at S&W.

Heck, considering the dismal estimates at the accuracy and completeness of the heavily regulated and funded NFA registrar (something over 50% loss of registrations estimated?!) I would take huge issue with "not being on a list" equating to guilt.

I know that's not what you meant at all, but your phraseology is dangerous.

Sorry for the seguay, back to your regularily scheguled program!

Well, in trouble as for having the heat put on you? Yes. I didn't say anything about prosecution or conviction. I didn't state it was a crime NOT to be on the list. Just that if you have one, get caught with it as an AW and it hasn't been 'fixed' at the factory, you may not get the chance to correct it. Most likely it will be confiscated, you may possibly have charges filed against you, but you probably wouldn't be convicted of anything unless you were doing something illegal at the time.

metalhead357
05-13-2006, 2:10 AM
It seems to me that every one is fixated on soldering the magazine to the reciever. Why wouldn't it work to just silver solder the set screw in one of semi auto sams mag locks?

Sorry to have been so wordy:cool: THATTTTTTTTT is exactly what I was thinking....... why not solder the pin in place? if THAT would not suffice for DOJ THENNNNNNN proceed to bring up a 'total' solder or braze.............

The *nly* reason why I brought up the walther is/was because it had TO BE MADE permanantly affixed....and from the sounds of the reports people say its nothing more than perma-loctighted on:eek: Sorry for the confusion folks................................

And so just for a change in direction and the DOJ actually somehow convinces whomever this needs to be done (Say...tig welded is the *only* acceptable one) then WHAT are the carbon fibbbbbber owners gonna do?

Me thinks the DOJ anti epoxy is beyond ludicrous..........

xenophobe
05-13-2006, 3:36 AM
The crux of my argument here is that one could easially have a "fixed" P-22, and still not be on some unregulated list at S&W.


Unlikely, but possible.


Heck, considering the dismal estimates at the accuracy and completeness of the heavily regulated and funded NFA registrar (something over 50% loss of registrations estimated?!) I would take huge issue with "not being on a list" equating to guilt.

Yes, but DOJ shifted the burden of keeping these records (as they like to do whenever possible) as part of the settlement with S&W if I am not mistaken.

As for the NFA Registry... I'd like them to apply the same standards to themselves as they do to FFLs. lol That would be good for a laugh.


I know that's not what you meant at all, but your phraseology is dangerous.

Perhaps, but a fixed mag P22? That's grasping for straws if I ever heard that term used correctly.