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ilikeguns
09-02-2010, 10:05 AM
It seems stupid, and maybe it is. But looking at ballistics, 9x19 and 357 magnum have similar offerings in velocity and weight. So... if a 9x19 bullet that weighs the same as a 357 is traveling about as fast as a 357... is there a difference?
Sounds stupid to say that 9 is equal to 357 and I dont want to believe it since I just acquired a GP100, so someone help me out here.

paul0660
09-02-2010, 10:19 AM
if a 9x19 bullet that weighs the same as a 357 is traveling about as fast as a 357... is there a difference?

There wouldn't be, but a quick look shows .357 125 grain at 1600 fps, 9mm at 1200 fps..........and kinetic energy increases by the square of speed. .357 packs more punch by far.

olhunter
09-02-2010, 10:25 AM
It seems stupid, and maybe it is. But looking at ballistics, 9x19 and 357 magnum have similar offerings in velocity and weight. So... if a 9x19 bullet that weighs the same as a 357 is traveling about as fast as a 357... is there a difference?
Sounds stupid to say that 9 is equal to 357 and I dont want to believe it since I just acquired a GP100, so someone help me out here.

If you match velocities, then yeah, they're about the same. But the .357 is generally loaded faster than a 9mm. Otherwise, you'd have a .38 Special.

advocatusdiaboli
09-02-2010, 10:34 AM
Not 9mm so this strays a bit from the topic, but .357 Magnum and .357 Sig are nearly equivalent with 124 grain bullets but only at 124 grains. And that's why Sig created the .357 Sig--.357 Magnum punch in a .40 form factor.

Kinetic energy is 1/2*mass*velocity-squared. Since a 9mm needs a light bullet to go as fast as the .357, it's kinetic energy is less. When comparing the same weight bullets (a post above) it becomes obvious (by 400 fps) that 9mm is less powerful.

ilikeguns
09-02-2010, 11:02 AM
Thanks guys. Any idea offhand who offers a 1600 fps jhp for 357?

scarville
09-02-2010, 11:04 AM
Not so much.

From the Buffalo Bore website


===== 9x19mm =====
115 gr JHP +P 1,300 fps 431 ft-lbs
115 gr JKHP +P+ 1,400 fps 500 ft-lbs
124 gr JKHP +P 1,225 fps 413 ft-lbs
124 gr JHP1 +P+ 1,300 fps 461 ft-lbs

===== 357 magnum =====
158 gr JHC 1,475 fps 763 ft-lbs
125 gr JHC 1,700 fps 802 ft-lbs

===== 357 for short barrels =====
158 gr JHP 1,100 fps 424 ft-lbs
125 gr JHP 1,225 fps 416 ft-lbs

===== 38 spl =====
125 gr JHP 900 fps 225 ft-lbs
125 gr JHP +P 1,050 fps 306 ft-lbs
158 gr SWC 850 fps 253 ft-lbs
158 gr LSWCHP +P 1,000 fps 351 ft-lbs


I think it was Massad Ayoob who said that police switched to autoloaders to get more bullets, not better bullets.

ilikeguns
09-02-2010, 11:28 AM
I guess the confusion came from this box of 357 I got. Its 158 grain at only 1150 fps. BVAC brand. Next time ill look around for tougher stuff.

Fishslayer
09-02-2010, 11:31 AM
Thanks guys. Any idea offhand who offers a 1600 fps jhp for 357?

I'm guessing some of the UberExtremeDoubleTactical ammo makers will offer something like that.

JMO, but I stay away from hyper velocity loads like that. I don't have a chrono but most data puts my 158gr JHP w/2400 powder & 125gr JHP w/Bullseye loads anywhere from 1200 - 1400 fps. Those are pretty stout loads.

1600fps is probly going to be with a 110gr JHP and slow powder. That combo has been linked to forcing cone and flame cutting issues, particularly in the M19 S&W.

If you're thinking of those for HD use, might try touching off a few full house .357 at your local indoor range.:eek: Then imagine that in your living room with no ear protection. My wheelgun sits in the safe loaded with +P SJHP. I save the big dogs for having fun at the range. :D

And yes... comparing any 9mm to a full house .357 is kinda silly...

HalfEvil
09-02-2010, 11:42 AM
Thats the reason my DE .50AE stays locked up all the time in the house. The act of shooting it indoors would cause to much trauma to the shooter.

Fishslayer
09-02-2010, 11:45 AM
Thats the reason my DE .50AE stays locked up all the time in the house. The act of shooting it indoors would cause to much trauma to the shooter.

That is a MAGNIFICENT looking GSD!:cool:

Threadjack over. Carry on... ;)

bayboydray408
09-02-2010, 12:02 PM
Thats the reason my DE .50AE stays locked up all the time in the house. The act of shooting it indoors would cause to much trauma to the shooter.

alot worse with the 500 mag lol, an average 2200 ft lbs with that

HalfEvil
09-02-2010, 1:42 PM
That is a MAGNIFICENT looking GSD!:cool:

Threadjack over. Carry on... ;)

Oh you mean this goofy guy? :) He's a good looking, amazingly fit, well trained Shepherd named Dozer. Just under 100lbs right now.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a27/ferrari_360/046.jpg

*thread jack now over*

toadman
09-02-2010, 2:14 PM
I've often wondered about that. I forget where, but remember a report stating that the
125grain JHP .357 was among the most reliable police man stoppers. Figuring that most police revolvers are with a 4" barrel, I guessing in the 1,250 fps range.
A 9mm 124 grain +P JHP from your standard Glock or Sig should be fairly close to those .357 figures. So the people that say a 9mm is a piss poor manstopper just didn't sound right to me.

ilikeguns
09-02-2010, 2:46 PM
That was my line of thinking. I guess I forgot to think about barrel length though. A 6 inch gp100 will add to the velocity the box of ammo advertises right?

sevensix2x51
09-02-2010, 3:40 PM
im thinkin dillon or rcbs would be the best places to find such a hot load... ;)

of course the little ayoob voice in the back of my head always tells me that is a bad idea for shooting bad guys. :TFH:

Andy Taylor
09-02-2010, 3:55 PM
Another thing to consider is bullet design. A 9mm being designed to function in a semi-auto has to have a bullet design that will allow it to feed reliably in such pistols. .357 Magnum, being primarily a revolver round, does not have that as a design perameter. Therefore a bullet can be designed to give the best possible terminal effect, without regard to how the weapon will cycle.

Katana
09-02-2010, 4:02 PM
Try firing 9mm 124gr+P from an all steel 2" J frame and you'll appreciate how powerful 9mm really is.

Günter
09-02-2010, 5:06 PM
I've often wondered about that. I forget where, but remember a report stating that the
125grain JHP .357 was among the most reliable police man stoppers. Figuring that most police revolvers are with a 4" barrel, I guessing in the 1,250 fps range.

That round would most likely be the legendary Federal 357B 125 grain JHP or its equiverent from Remington:
Velocity: 1,450 fps
Energy: 584 ft•lbf
Expansion: 0.65 inch
Penetration: 12 inches

scarville
09-02-2010, 5:40 PM
JMO, but I stay away from hyper velocity loads like that. I don't have a chrono but most data puts my 158gr JHP w/2400 powder & 125gr JHP w/Bullseye loads anywhere from 1200 - 1400 fps. Those are pretty stout loads.
Ditto.

According to my chronograph, 158 gr hydrashoks exit at about 1120 fps from my 3" 686, about 1300 fps from the 6" 686 and around 1800 fps from the 18.5" bbl on my Marlin 1894C. I used to handload 158 gr JHP bullets faster -- up to about 1600 fps from a 6" GP-100 but those were some scary loads.

I tried a box of 125 gr JHP from Federal and IIRC got about 1400 fps from a 4" bbl Security Six.

Since I had carpal tunnel surgery a year ago I'm more sensitive to recoil so I pretty much stick to more moderate 158 gr bullets in my 357's. I shoot a lot more 38's too :-)

vta
09-02-2010, 6:09 PM
not all 9mm rounds are created equal.

38 special < 9mm luger < 38 super < 357 sig < 357 mag < 9x25 dillon

sure you can load some hotter than others but this is pretty much the scale with standard loading.

check out what meathead9 is working on with his G20L.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=337474

trautert
09-02-2010, 6:17 PM
It never made any sense to me to shoot a round in a home defense situation that would re-arrange the furniture along with putting down the bad guy.

Tom

Marlin Hunter
09-02-2010, 6:24 PM
I think it was Massad Ayoob who said that police switched to autoloaders to get more bullets, not better bullets.


The idea is to shoot all the air around the bad guy so he can't breath.

scarville
09-02-2010, 7:30 PM
The idea is to shoot all the air around the bad guy so he can't breath.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/smilies/rofl2.gif

BigDogatPlay
09-02-2010, 7:46 PM
It seems stupid, and maybe it is. But looking at ballistics, 9x19 and 357 magnum have similar offerings in velocity and weight. So... if a 9x19 bullet that weighs the same as a 357 is traveling about as fast as a 357... is there a difference?
Sounds stupid to say that 9 is equal to 357 and I dont want to believe it since I just acquired a GP100, so someone help me out here.

There is no way to load a 9mm to be comparable to a 357 Magnum, not without damaging your pistol anyway. .357 can shoot much heavier bullets at far higher velocities.

Taken another way, SAAMI sets the maximum safe pressure of .357 Magnum at 44,000 psi. Standard 9mm, by comparison is maxed at 34,084, while +P and some NATO ammo will run up to about 36,500 psi..

To get close to the performance of .357 in a semi auto you need to consider something like a .357 Sig (necked down .40 S&W at pretty much maximum pressure) or a 38 Super in a +P or +P+ load.

advocatusdiaboli
09-02-2010, 8:01 PM
To get close to the performance of .357 in a semi auto you need to consider something like a .357 Sig (necked down .40 S&W at pretty much maximum pressure) or a 38 Super in a +P or +P+ load.

You can get it but only with 124 grain bullets and you pay for it in shortened frame life and even shorter barrel life. A trade off some will make and others won't want to. Government law enforcement does but then their ammunition and firearms are paid for. I have one in Sig P239, but I got a 9mm Bar-sto barrel for it as well. The ammunition is pricey as well--9mm and .40 S&w are much cheaper.

Notblake
09-02-2010, 9:07 PM
dude, if someone is trying to kill you, your hearing is seriously the last thing you need to worry about.

Police for plenty of years used .357's to defend themselves, indoors and out.

Where you run into issues is with the silly ported barrels ...... re-directing gas back at the shooter is, well, not so good.