PDA

View Full Version : I think I had an ND today...


Josh3239
09-02-2010, 1:10 AM
:o

I am still a little puzzled over how this happend, but luckily nobody was hurt and nothing was damaged. Not too much drama but I figured I'd pass it on anyway.

I took a buddy of mine to the range today and one of the guns I brought with me was my Glock with two slides. The original .40 slide assembly and the AA .22LR slide assembly. As we were shooting through different guns and taking turns, I decided it was my time to shoot but my Glock was wearing the .22LR slide and I wanted the .40 slide. In order to remove the slide, the first step is to pull the trigger. I typically put handguns down after removing the magazine and locking the slide back. My friend had been shooting the Glock and he had removed the magazine but didn't lock the slide back (I think I'll teach him how to do that next time).

This is where it gets confusing. As I always do when I pick up a handgun. I point it in a safe direction and check it to see if it is loaded. My friend was standing right next to me and saw me do this. I saw the magazine was removed and I pulled the slide back to visually check for a round. I suppose this time I wasn't paying much attention to the visually part but the slide was definetly pulled back and released. Luckily the handgun was facing a safe direction and I pulled the trigger and a .22LR fired. I still managed to hit the target actually :D (it was an indoor range with the auto targets so I brought it right in front of us). It was only a .22LR, but it being totally unexpected made it feel like it was much bigger, then again maybe because I had brought the handgun closer to my body and was looking closely at the handgun. The look on my face pretty quickly told my friend that I did not do that purpose. Needless to say, while we packing up later that night I did several chamber checks on my guns many times over to make sure they weren't loaded (they weren't).

On the drive home I couldn't tell him enough how confused I was that I didn't see the round and that it didn't eject when I pulled the slide. I thought perhaps I didn't pull it all the way back, but it is a .22LR. The actions are so short that I'd have to try to pull it back and not eject whatever was in there. Also, I could have sworn that Advantage Arms slides won't shoot without a magazine in there. Apparently they do.

Lessons learned tonight:
- Teach friends how to lock open the slide and make sure it is done on all guns being set down.
- When you visually inspect to see if the chamber is loaded, actually pay attention as the motions aren't enough.

All in all it was a fun day and even with the ND I still hit my target :D

Munk
09-02-2010, 1:36 AM
This is more accidental than negligent.... negligence to me seems to mean you weren't pointing in a safe direction, and that there was careless danger involved. Stuff happens, and with reasonable precaution, it's a non-issue.

At least you learned some valuable lessons.... guns CAN fail to eject (at bad times) and that glocks have a stupid dissassembly procedure.

Blackhawk556
09-02-2010, 1:44 AM
well at least nobody was hurt

that's what matters most

technique
09-02-2010, 1:46 AM
I'd have to say it's negligent. He knows his stuff, and knows he failed.
Accidents happen due to negligence...AD is still a ND.

Glad you learned a lesson, glad you're safe as well as all involved.

MAC USMC
09-02-2010, 2:13 AM
Well intended story to remind us all not to take SAFETY casually because it could very well result in a CASUALTY.


Thanks for the reminder. Here is a story to make you feel better.

A few years ago two friends went on a duck hunt. They had a really neat aluminum duck hunting boat, very stable, camo netting, etc. As they placed all the gear in the boat, ducks were spotted on the horizon. As one hunter qquickly loaded his shotgun he placed in the boat. His retriever dog excitedly jumped onto the boat and both front feet hit the shotgun. It discharged blowing a sizeable hole BELOW the waterline.

The smart dog jumped back onto dry land as the duck boat looked like it had been hit by a cruise missile. Nothing was lost or ruined, but the duck hunt. It was definitely over. Repair work for the duck boat would have paid for a top-of-the-line shotgun with duck radar.

MORAL: HASTE MAKES WASTE

SJgunguy24
09-02-2010, 6:34 AM
This is more accidental than negligent.... negligence to me seems to mean you weren't pointing in a safe direction, and that there was careless danger involved. Stuff happens, and with reasonable precaution, it's a non-issue.

At least you learned some valuable lessons.... guns CAN fail to eject (at bad times) and that glocks have a stupid dissassembly procedure.

Sorry dude but "accidental discharge" means the gun failed, the gun didn't fail.

"Negligent discharge" means the operator failed, the operator did fail to check the chamber.
Some aw s**t's can turn really bad really fast. Some times it costs people their lives. Let this be a lesson, DO NOT TAKE FIREARM SAFETY FOR GRANTED.

Booshanky
09-02-2010, 6:36 AM
Sometimes it helps to just drop a finger into the chamber to feel for brass. I do that a lot.

ZombieTactics
09-02-2010, 6:36 AM
This is almost a classic rendering of the "magic bullet" scenario.

You thought you cleared the weapon, but had somehow become complacent in your methods and didn't really check it correctly. This happens more than anyone likes to admit.

Thankfully, you were operating within the "four rules", and this prevented a tragic incident. You are to be commended in this respect.

zman
09-02-2010, 8:04 AM
It takes courage to share stories like these so I am glad you stepped up :thumbsup: Thankfully, everyone's OK.

I have to agree with tech and SJ though that it was a ND.

evidens83
09-02-2010, 8:16 AM
Good to read nobody was hurt. Another reminder that no matter how sure we are we cant be sure enough.

paul0660
09-02-2010, 8:22 AM
So why didn't the .22 eject?

RolinThundr
09-02-2010, 8:29 AM
I have developed a habit when checking my chamber that may help. I have an XD and just like the OP's Glock, pulling the trigger is part of the dis-assembly process. What I do is (finger off the trigger and pointed in a safe direction) turn my gun so the ejection port is facing the ground and rack the slide a couple of times to make sure that any round in the chamber is ejected, then I lock the slide back and visually check the chamber.

Using a finger to check as mentioned above may also be a good idea anytime you feel that you might be hurried/distracted.

Glad no one was hurt.

MossbergMan
09-02-2010, 8:43 AM
Thanks for the safety reminder, "stuff happens" and never be complacent about gun safety. I have had ND's all in safe directions, but all my fault.
Moral of the story is here: Never take anything involving guns or gun safety for granted.

FYI: Magazine disconnects are a function found in the frame of a handgun. If the base model doesn't have a magazine disconnect on it, anything you add on the top of the frame will not affect the bottom end of the gun (unless you replace parts other than the magazine - which the AA system or Ceiner's do not require). S&W is famous for it's magazine disconnects as are Browning Hi-Powers.....not Glocks. That's one reason you'll never see a Gen 4 Glock in CA. until the Certified List is history, no disconnect.
AND NEVER EXPECT A FIREARM PART (safety) TO REPLACE COMMON SENSE AND THE 4 BASIC FIREARM SAFETY RULES.

gorenut
09-02-2010, 9:08 AM
Your story is actually part of why I got rid of my .22 LR conversion kit and just ditched the idea of bringing any different caliber conversions to the range. I usually bring only 1 or 2 handguns to the range at a time, but sometimes I bring more if I'm introducing new people.. but having all the different exchanges and handguns makes it too easy to lose track of whats happening. I had a very similar situation happen to me way back, also with a .22 LR. Now I have every gun stick with 1 caliber at the range and just worry about less things.

faterikcartman
09-02-2010, 9:53 AM
Negligent. Lucky you were following other safety rules and no one was hurt and your life ruined with law suits and/or prosecution. Everyone should remember you rarely get a do-over when you screw up with guns.

mjv
09-02-2010, 9:59 AM
I was actually taught to physically feel with your finger tom kae sure your eyes are correct.

CALATRAVA
09-02-2010, 11:04 AM
I was actually taught to physically feel with your finger tom kae sure your eyes are correct.

Who's Tom Kae?

1911su16b870
09-02-2010, 11:08 AM
Who's Tom Kae?

tom kae = "to make" :D

looks like the OP didn't see the 22 brass in the chamber during the chamber check...you can only see what you look for and not what you expect to see...

tlillard23
09-02-2010, 11:38 AM
You were at what range? 10th street....

Good thing it was pointed in a safe direction

Lucky you only broke one rule. Probably not the first, and it won't be your last.

If you break 2 of the rules you looooose.

Beelzy
09-02-2010, 1:04 PM
This is exactly why they make sure when folks buy handguns that they do the visual check
AND the finger check when they pickup their guns.

Thank Goodness this was only a Lesson and not a Disaster.

tacticalcity
09-02-2010, 1:18 PM
Calling a failure to obey the gun safety rules an accident is avoiding your personal responsibility. We have a lot of that in our society, but one area were we do not have it is in the professional firearms community. If you fail to do your due diligence, you can call it an accident all you want, the rest of us will call it what it is - negligence.

An accidental discharge is an accident because it happened despite the fact that you obeyed proper gun safety at all times and did nothing wrong. These are extremely, extremely rare and next to impossible. When they do happen, it is usually a mechanical failure. Something in the firearm itself doesn't function the way it is supposed to.

I know this sounds very harsh. Like an old drill sergeant yelling at the troops about something that seems minor, but it really isn't.

If you embrace this concept of negligent vs accidental, you'll be a much safer and much more proficient shooter. Hold yourself to the highest possible standard, and you'll see your shooting ability improve by leaps and bounds in all areas of shooting. Your fellow shooters will appreciate it as well.

It is also important to own up to your mistakes right away. That way you can learn from them. Delta teaches this concept. Nobody is harder them than the soldier is on himself. The shooter brutally evaluates his own perfmance infront of the others so that he and they can learn from his mistakes. In that spirit, here goes my confession:

I have had two similar experiences on a shooting range.

The first time was several years ago, I was pointed in at a the target, and instead of manually pulling back and releasing the slide I tried to use the slide release leaver instead. In order to reach it with my thumb I had to adjust to a goofy grip and as the slide slammed forward my trigger finger slipped into the trigger well and pulled the trigger. Nobody was hurt, and I was on a shooting range, but if it had happened in real life that could have spelled disaster. So now I manually pull back and release slide, making sure my trigger finger is high on the slide.

The second time was about six months ago. I did what the above shooter did. While on a shooting range, pointed in a safe direction, I didn't pay close enough attention when clearing my weapon. I removed the magazine, but did not notice the round in the chamber. I was setting up for dry fire drills. When I pointed in, and pulled the trigger I got a bang instead of a click. Surprised me big time. Again, if I had done this while doing dry fire drills at home it could have spelled disaster. This served as a reminder to pay extremely close attention when clearing a weapon and not take anything for granted. It is so easy to get complacent when you've done something a million times. It is also extremely dangerous.

I am a real stickler for gun safety. So if I can screw up those two times, imagine how dangerous somebody is who thinks it is all fun and games?

Kestryll
09-02-2010, 1:29 PM
So why didn't the .22 eject?

I think I might have an answer to that, depending on the .22 conversion kit.

On some .22 pistols there is no extractor, they rely on the recoil gasses to extract the case instead of a mechanical extractor.
My Berreta Model 21 was like this, you could pull the slide back all day long and the unfired round would not come out of the chamber.

If this conversion kit is similar to this you could easily rack the slide, see nothing eject and no brass in the ejection port and think it was empty.
Especially if you are used to using the same weapon with a centerfire top end.

I'm not familiar with the conversion kit in question but this is one way that you could have checked it and still had a round in the chamber.

Either way, good move having pointed in a safe direction.

tacticalcity
09-02-2010, 1:39 PM
I think I might have an answer to that, depending on the .22 conversion kit.

On some .22 pistols there is no extractor, they rely on the recoil gasses to extract the case instead of a mechanical extractor.
My Berreta Model 21 was like this, you could pull the slide back all day long and the unfired round would not come out of the chamber.

If this conversion kit is similar to this you could easily rack the slide, see nothing eject and no brass in the ejection port and think it was empty.
Especially if you are used to using the same weapon with a centerfire top end.

I'm not familiar with the conversion kit in question but this is one way that you could have checked it and still had a round in the chamber. Definately important to know the specific quirks of your equipment.

Either way, good move having pointed in a safe direction.

Sounds like a really dangerous design flaw. You could do everything the way your training dictates, and still have a round go off. Not good.

Vbp6us
09-02-2010, 1:52 PM
tom kae = "to make" :D

looks like the OP didn't see the 22 brass in the chamber during the chamber check...you can only see what you look for and not what you expect to see...

I think this is what happened.

Ninja45
09-02-2010, 2:07 PM
It can happen to the best of us, so take heed to all the advice offered here. Observe the 4 rules AT ALL TIMES, visual and tactile check chambers, and most of all SAFETY is not part of the firearm, it is part of the person handling the firearm.

BigDogatPlay
09-02-2010, 8:58 PM
Lesson learned, drive on. Some good thoughts in this thread.

And thanks for sharing the experience.

shortround1
09-02-2010, 9:07 PM
Never trust another person to do the right or safe thing.

G-forceJunkie
09-02-2010, 11:40 PM
Those little Berettas are the only ones I know of with out extractors, but there may be others out there. But like any "accident" or 'ND", there is usually a chain of events that happened, and breaking just one link would have prevented the failure. That is why I stress in training, doing the same thing, all the time, without fail. You mentioned your friend left the gun in a state you never do, that was something different that could have led to confusion and errors, as you experienced. Something out of your "norm" should bring up red flags and make you STOP. Address the situation, and with carefull action, figure out whats wrong or different, and correct it. Your friend should have also been instructed to drop a mag and lock the slide back whenever laying down the pistol (your "norm.") Since this is on topic, I'll post my way of clearing a pistol, as I think it is about as sure as one could be, and is designed to address the same issues more then once, and catch mistakes.
1. Remove the magazine
2. Lock the slide to the rear
3. Visually look into the empty mag well and verify mag is out
4. Stick your finger way up the mag well and verify by feel the mag is out.
5. Look down the ejection port and be sure you see all the way through the empty grip.
6. Look at the chamber and see if it is empty.
7. stick your finger on/in the chamber and feel that it is empty.
8. Lower the slide and rack it 3 times.
9. Do a "press check" and look for the edge of a case.
9. Point and dryfire in a direction a ND would not hurt anybody.

Sounds complicated but it takes 10 seconds and is about as sure as you can be a handgun is unloaded which is particularly important with guns the need to be dry fired to disassembled.

Josh3239
09-03-2010, 12:04 AM
Yep it was a little mistake. I go through the actions so much I got lazy on the visual check, several times a day I am chamber checking handguns. I am a stickler for that and keeping them pointed in the right direction. Also, changing the slides is something I do often at the range as well. I did chamber check, I did magazine check, I pointed in the safe direction and intentionally pulled the trigger, that is how you operate them. The only difference was that I wasn't expected a shot. Negligence, accidental, whatever. It just reminded me to pay closer attention and I thought it would be a good story and a good reminder for everyone. I have no idea why that round didn't extract though :confused:

meangreen46
09-03-2010, 12:10 AM
Those little Berettas are the only ones I know of with out extractors, but there may be others out there. But like any "accident" or 'ND", there is usually a chain of events that happened, and breaking just one link would have prevented the failure. That is why I stress in training, doing the same thing, all the time, without fail. You mentioned your friend left the gun in a state you never do, that was something different that could have led to confusion and errors, as you experienced. Something out of your "norm" should bring up red flags and make you STOP. Address the situation, and with carefull action, figure out whats wrong or different, and correct it. Your friend should have also been instructed to drop a mag and lock the slide back whenever laying down the pistol (your "norm.") Since this is on topic, I'll post my way of clearing a pistol, as I think it is about as sure as one could be, and is designed to address the same issues more then once, and catch mistakes.
1. Remove the magazine
2. Lock the slide to the rear
3. Visually look into the empty mag well and verify mag is out
4. Stick your finger way up the mag well and verify by feel the mag is out.
5. Look down the ejection port and be sure you see all the way through the empty grip.
6. Look at the chamber and see if it is empty.
7. stick your finger on/in the chamber and feel that it is empty.
8. Lower the slide and rack it 3 times.
9. Do a "press check" and look for the edge of a case.
9. Point and dryfire in a direction a ND would not hurt anybody.

Sounds complicated but it takes 10 seconds and is about as sure as you can be a handgun is unloaded which is particularly important with guns the need to be dry fired to disassembled.

For what it's worth, my department just changed their policy not too long ago from AD to ND. When I asked our range guys why they did that, they said our legal guys got together with the armorer and range guys and basically came up with this..."There should never be a reason to have an Accidental discharge. The discharge had to come from a Negligent use or care of the firearm. A true accidental discharge would come from a manufacturers defect (which apparently has only happened a few times)."

ilikeguns
09-03-2010, 8:35 AM
sorry about the nd bro. At least you were practicing safe handling skills in keeping your muzzle downrange. There's good and bad to this story, but its a good reminder for all of us to double-check those chambers.

GSG222
09-03-2010, 12:05 PM
You were lucky. Reminds me of a video I saw - a guy was having trouble with his gun and the range master came to help. Suddenly the gun went off in the guy's hand (he somehow pulled the trigger "accidentally"). The range master jumped and ran away like crazy, while the guy fell and died at the shooting bench...

luckystrike
09-03-2010, 12:24 PM
good noone was hurt. I beleave the reason it didnt eject is because of a sticky chamber.
even if it was clean prior it can still get stucky pretty quick. just my guess because my dads P22 does that every other mag when it starts getting dirty.
I dont check with my finger, I look-I see light OR I dont see light.

komrad
09-03-2010, 12:30 PM
wow. i'm glad that everyone is safe, and i think mainly due to you pointing at a safe direction, Thats prolly what saved it from being any worse... as the unexpected does happen! good wake up for all tho. thanks for sharing.

VulpesVafrae
09-03-2010, 8:26 PM
The negligence was in Glock making their trigger have more functions then just 'fire'.

Glock subconsciously trains you that a trigger is more then the firing mechanism. A lot of ADs happen this way with Glocks. Why everyone in the world recommends Glocks as your first starting pistol has me clueless.. Aquaman needs a glock for all the sand and sea water.. not many others do, Steve Zissou maybe.

Anothercoilgun
09-03-2010, 11:16 PM
Needing to pull the trigger to remove the slide is one thing I dislike about that class of disassembly guns. Its not me who will always be doing the take down.

j1133s
09-03-2010, 11:29 PM
You had an AD, not ND. Everything is AD until proven in court that it's ND :)

thefinger
09-04-2010, 12:18 AM
It happens... just be sure it happens RARELY and that you have done enough to prevent the accident from becoming a tragedy.

This is why you OVER-DO EVERYTHING gun-related. Cleaning, reliability checks, safety checks, etc... If you over-do everything then the problems that result from an accident tend to be small rather than large. This is important considering that the difference between "small and large" is generally "life and death"...

Turbinator
09-04-2010, 10:47 PM
The negligence was in Glock making their trigger have more functions then just 'fire'.

The safety is really the one between your ears. I never rely on mechanical safeties.

Turby

VulpesVafrae
09-04-2010, 11:08 PM
The safety is really the one between your ears. I never rely on mechanical safeties.

Turby
I wasn't talking about their safety. Which is also stupid to place the ONLY safety on the TRIGGER. but the fact that they made the trigger perform another operation in the gun is just plain stupid. If you disassemble to gun enough times, that action will be drilled into your subconsciousness.

Also not technically true. I once was skeet shooting, I thought I counted the rounds and was out, shotgun was pointed in a safe direction.. I walked back towards the thrower, stepped into a gopher hole, and in the slip, my finger went inside the trigger and made it go off. You can't fight an unconscious fight/ or flight reaction, (Yes it was my mistake not to visually check, etc) my point being, sometimes your brain will make your finger go on that trigger for no apparent reason.

http://sleepless.blogs.com/george/2005/11/glock_handguns_.html here's a blog of a guy who shot himself in the hand. There are a lot of these articles about Glocks.

Anchors
09-05-2010, 12:00 AM
I wasn't talking about their safety. Which is also stupid to place the ONLY safety on the TRIGGER. but the fact that they made the trigger perform another operation in the gun is just plain stupid. If you disassemble to gun enough times, that action will be drilled into your subconsciousness.

Also not technically true. I once was skeet shooting, I thought I counted the rounds and was out, shotgun was pointed in a safe direction.. I walked back towards the thrower, stepped into a gopher hole, and in the slip, my finger went inside the trigger and made it go off. You can't fight an unconscious fight/ or flight reaction, (Yes it was my mistake not to visually check, etc) my point being, sometimes your brain will make your finger go on that trigger for no apparent reason.

http://sleepless.blogs.com/george/2005/11/glock_handguns_.html here's a blog of a guy who shot himself in the hand. There are a lot of these articles about Glocks.

I think the only reason that there have been more ND with Glocks is that Glocks are more common than any other brand for police departments and extremely common for civilians.
Pretty much every time I see a police officer he has a G22 or G23. Rarely I'll see a Sig.
I'm sure there's more police involved car accidents with Crown Victories, Impalas, and Chargers (depending on Era.) simply because this is what most of them drive.

Most never have problems disassembling their Glocks.
Props to the OP for posting this story as a reminder of how important safety is though.

Anchors
09-05-2010, 12:03 AM
I wasn't talking about their safety. Which is also stupid to place the ONLY safety on the TRIGGER.

I also think a lot of people would disagree with this.
I like the lack of external safeties and like the fact that my Glock will only fire if the trigger is pressed.
Dropping a Glock isn't nearly as dangerous as it is with some designs.

G-forceJunkie
09-05-2010, 12:13 AM
Fixed that for ya.I wasn't talking about their safety. Which is also stupid to place the ONLY one of the three safetys on the TRIGGER.

VulpesVafrae
09-05-2010, 8:52 PM
I think the only reason that there have been more ND with Glocks is that Glocks are more common than any other brand for police departments and extremely common for civilians.
Very true Glocks are very common. They were the first to mass produce a marketed polymer frame.

Yes, Glocks are very safe, they won't go off unless you pull the trigger, I just think its a little too easy to pull that trigger.

landslide03
09-06-2010, 8:51 AM
If you visually and physically check it each time you will ge golden! Just be glad it wasn't pointed to the side where other shooters were. Thats what always scares me the most at the indoor firing ranges.

bsg
09-06-2010, 9:24 AM
thanks for the story... and the reminder. :)

k1dude
09-06-2010, 10:10 AM
Sometimes in the low light of an indoor range or outdoors at dusk, it's really hard for my old bad eyes to see a tiny .22 in the chamber. Centerfire it's usually never a problem because they're bigger and have that easy to spot primer. Also it seems some chambers are pretty far upstream from the ejection port than others which makes it even harder. With .22's in poor light I always seem to double and triple check out of habit and fear.