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SIKwitIT
09-01-2010, 5:56 PM
kinda new to pistol shooting. Was wondering at 7yrds what would a good 5 round group be for a m&P9 full size?
Finally starting to get a hang of the trigger and where and when it break.
Really stoked about this pistol

dirtydrew
09-01-2010, 5:57 PM
7 yards? 2 inches...

CSACANNONEER
09-01-2010, 6:22 PM
What type of shooting are you talking about? If you mean bullseye or slow fire, I'd go with a lot less than 2" Some styles of handguns can shot sub moa which means: less than an inch at 100 yards. Then again, if you are talking about combat or action types of shooting, 6" groups in the center of the target combined with speed are good enough to win matches.

Black Majik
09-01-2010, 6:23 PM
At 7 yards you should have all your shots in one ragged hole.

AlliedArmory
09-01-2010, 6:24 PM
For a beginner slow firing at 7yrds, I would say 2-3 inches.

Put some of those 1" target spots and try and shoot them out.

EWILKE
09-01-2010, 6:27 PM
At 7 yards you should have all your shots in one ragged hole. this sounds about right.

VictorFranko
09-01-2010, 6:32 PM
A ragged hole if you are precision shooting. Combat shooting from concealed, something completely different.
Please title your threads more carefully, my answer was going to be three, two girls and a guy.

Jonathan Doe
09-01-2010, 6:34 PM
Whether it is 7 yeards or 25 yards, if you can place your shots inside the human size target (ie. B27 target, maybe 7 ring or better), you are good to go.

shooting4life
09-01-2010, 7:00 PM
If you are a new shooter I would say if you are in the 5 inch range at 7 yards you are doing ok. As you practice more your groups will shrink. To get the one hole groups you most likely will want something with a better trigger and better sights but it is possible with your gun

9mmepiphany
09-01-2010, 8:50 PM
At 7 yards you should have all your shots in one ragged hole.

I just took a new shooter out the other day...I mean really new...and by the end of about two and a half hours, he put a together a 4 shot group at 7 yards (slow fire, about 3 rounds in 2 sec) that was exactly that. he got cocky on the 2nd round and pulled a round out just over an inch.

This was with my old worn (ex-LE trade-in) G19

when shooting SA, with my tuned 226, he was in the 2-3" range. the SA just tempted his wanting to make the shot go off too much.

we didn't have time to get into the push out or shooting from reset, so we didn't build up any speed shooting

Anchors
09-01-2010, 9:46 PM
7 Yards is the closest you're allowed to shoot at Firing Line (21 feet, until the light is on the target).
So far I can do 2"-2.5" sometimes. But when I fire really slow, it's like I over think it and lose my sight picture. A round a second works best for me so far.
I'm jealous of people that can shoot one ragged hole.
(I'm shooting a G17 Gen4. --450 rounds so far on it.)

Maybe I could use a lesson or two. My grip and stance are fine, so I don't know.

Black Majik
09-01-2010, 9:48 PM
I just took a new shooter out the other day...I mean really new...and by the end of about two and a half hours, he put a together a 4 shot group at 7 yards (slow fire, about 3 rounds in 2 sec) that was exactly that. he got cocky on the 2nd round and pulled a round out just over an inch.

This was with my old worn (ex-LE trade-in) G19

when shooting SA, with my tuned 226, he was in the 2-3" range. the SA just tempted his wanting to make the shot go off too much.

we didn't have time to get into the push out or shooting from reset, so we didn't build up any speed shooting

That's mighty impressive Tang. Just goes to show what quality instruction does to a student.

9mmepiphany
09-01-2010, 11:56 PM
Thank you Richard

He was a lot like a younger Kelly from Top Shot. No bad habits yet and he just did the things that I told him would work. He was very responsive to slight corrections to his grip and trigger stroke...and he's only 19

I think it helped that he was an engineering student...I just had to put the force vectors in terms he could understand...and he was used to visualization exercises from playing soccer

Sajedene
09-01-2010, 11:59 PM
Thank you Richard

He was a lot like a younger Kelly from Top Shot. No bad habits yet and he just did the things that I told him would work. He was very responsive to slight corrections to his grip and trigger stroke...and he's only 19

I think it helped that he was an engineering student...I just had to put the force vectors in terms he could understand...and he was used to visualization exercises from playing soccer

I believe Kelly was an engineering student too :)

Perhaps introducing your friend to some videos of Kelly would be motivating?

9mmepiphany
09-02-2010, 12:01 AM
I'm jealous of people that can shoot one ragged hole.
(I'm shooting a G17 Gen4. --450 rounds so far on it.)

Maybe I could use a lesson or two. My grip and stance are fine, so I don't know.

We went through <50 rounds of 9mm and 20 rounds of .22lr and the 9mm was through a Gen 2 G19 with a NY-1 trigger

Just wondering, how do you know your grip and stance are fine :p

9mmepiphany
09-02-2010, 12:04 AM
I believe Kelly was an engineering student too :)

Perhaps introducing your friend to some videos of Kelly would be motivating?

He was

My student told me that watching Top Shot is what motivated him to take some lessons and learn to shoot correctly. He got some throwing knives too ;)

Cyc Wid It
09-02-2010, 12:31 AM
I was an engineering student, and I could use a lesson or 2. Coming down to the bay area anytime soon 9mm?

vta
09-02-2010, 12:48 AM
if you are talking about defensive pistol shooting, try this:

see how many shots you can get inside a 12 inch circle at 7 yards in under 2 seconds. speed up until you miss. practice until you don't. repeat until you can no longer improve.

SubieRX
09-02-2010, 12:53 AM
if you are talking about defensive pistol shooting, try this:

see how many shots you can get inside a 12 inch circle at 7 yards in under 2 seconds. speed up until you miss. practice until you don't. repeat until you can no longer improve.

Where are you guys practicing this stuff? I'm new to pistol shooting, and just recently became a member at Firing Line. The rules state that we must allow one second between shots. In my limited experience, these rules are fairly common among ranges, correct?

Is there some place I can do this without having to drive out to BLM land?

9mmepiphany
09-02-2010, 1:31 AM
Where are you guys practicing this stuff? I'm new to pistol shooting, and just recently became a member at Firing Line. The rules state that we must allow one second between shots. In my limited experience, these rules are fairly common among ranges, correct?
I'm usually shooting at Sac Valley which is east of Sacramento. as a member, I have access to the private ranges where we can shoot as fast as we want, as well as draw and practice mag changes...without anyone else on the range

I was an engineering student, and I could use a lesson or 2. Coming down to the bay area anytime soon 9mm?
How far into the Bay area are you? you never know, it depends on what you'd want to do. the big question is, do you have a range available

9mmepiphany
09-02-2010, 1:52 AM
if you are talking about defensive pistol shooting, try this:

see how many shots you can get inside a 12 inch circle at 7 yards in under 2 seconds. speed up until you miss. practice until you don't. repeat until you can no longer improve.
I don't know why you couldn't empty the whole mag into 12 inches in 2 seconds...or were you talking about drawing from a concealed holster?

try this one...it's not a drill, it's a test of how solid your fundamental skills are...it's called the F.A.S.T. drill (Fundamentals, Accuracy, & Speed Test) designed by Todd Green

at 7 yards; 35 card (head), 8″ plate (body)

start with 2 rounds in the gun. On a signal, draw and fire 2rds at the card; reload; and fire 4rds at the plate.

* 10+ seconds: Novice
* less than 10 seconds: Intermediate
* less than 7 seconds: Advanced
* less than 5 seconds: Expert

Dave Sevigny holds the record at 3.56 sec

Black Majik
09-02-2010, 11:41 AM
I don't know why you couldn't empty the whole mag into 12 inches in 2 seconds...or were you talking about drawing from a concealed holster?

try this one...it's not a drill, it's a test of how solid your fundamental skills are...it's called the F.A.S.T. drill (Fundamentals, Accuracy, & Speed Test) designed by Todd Green

at 7 yards; 35 card (head), 8″ plate (body)

start with 2 rounds in the gun. On a signal, draw and fire 2rds at the card; reload; and fire 4rds at the plate.

* 10+ seconds: Novice
* less than 10 seconds: Intermediate
* less than 7 seconds: Advanced
* less than 5 seconds: Expert

Dave Sevigny holds the record at 3.56 sec


What was the average time for the participants in the class?

Fishslayer
09-02-2010, 11:54 AM
I'm jealous of people that can shoot one ragged hole.

meh... not that hard...

<<nudges sandbag rest behind range bag>>:D


Maybe I could use a lesson or two. My grip and stance are fine, so I don't know.

Nah... be like golfers... hundreds of $$$ on equipment to "fix it"... who needs lessons?:cool:

9mmepiphany
09-02-2010, 11:56 AM
I didn't take the class, i just took this from his website...I think Nelson (45R) has taken it.

I like it because it does everything that the El Presidente, except the turn (a bit safer), does with less room and fewer shots. It test the draw and first shot, followup shots, mag change, target transition and target discretion (speed to target ratio)

most practiced shooters do it in a bit over 8 sec...from under a cover garment and mag carriers behind the hip (IDPA style)

9mmepiphany
09-02-2010, 12:02 PM
Nah... be like golfers... hundreds of $$$ on equipment to "fix it"... who needs lessons?:cool:
I'd done that for years...lots of new guns and gunsmithing bills.

a 3 day class (group) is less than the price of a new gun and will make you a better shooter with skills you can take away and practice...you'd pay that for a day of 1:1 instruction.

the funny thing is that folks think nothing of paying more to sit in a training seminar with 60-100 people and no personal attention

vta
09-02-2010, 1:42 PM
I don't know why you couldn't empty the whole mag into 12 inches in 2 seconds...or were you talking about drawing from a concealed holster?

try this one...it's not a drill, it's a test of how solid your fundamental skills are...it's called the F.A.S.T. drill (Fundamentals, Accuracy, & Speed Test) designed by Todd Green

at 7 yards; 35 card (head), 8″ plate (body)

start with 2 rounds in the gun. On a signal, draw and fire 2rds at the card; reload; and fire 4rds at the plate.

* 10+ seconds: Novice
* less than 10 seconds: Intermediate
* less than 7 seconds: Advanced
* less than 5 seconds: Expert

Dave Sevigny holds the record at 3.56 sec

the idea is for beginners who wish to train to work their way up to as many as they can. 10 rounds under 2 seconds at 7 yards in 12 inches is not as easy as you might think. try it next time you go to the range.

the point is to find your failure point. if you are dumping a whole mag in 12 inches, keep taking steps back until you fail. trust me. at some point you will fail and you can always get better. alternatively, shrink the target size down from 12 inches until you fail. it is the same idea.

9mmepiphany
09-02-2010, 2:16 PM
I don't disagree with you and think you present a good standard of measure. My personal feeling is that it would be ammo and money better spent taking instruction to learn to manage the trigger correctly to begin with.

When I used to travel to teach groups, our goal was that student be able to shoot accurately at a rate of 5 rounds per second (.20 sec splits) into 8 inches by the end of the weekend. the other thing was to cut playing card in half from that same distance. it just takes understanding the technique and repetition

tacticalcity
09-02-2010, 2:26 PM
It all depends on how you are training. Are you just a plinker? Do you plan on competing? Do you care if you survive if you actually have to defend yourself? Sadly, most the shooters I see on he range would fall into the first group. Pure plinkers.

You see guys at the range taking a full minute or more between shots (not for a specific drill, this is how they shoot all day long), cocking the hammer back to avoid the DA trigger pull on their Sigs and CZs (as if there will be time for that in a firefight), and doing all kinds of things that just aren't productive with regards to preparing yourself for the real world. Sure, it is fun. No doubt about that. However, I like to not only have fun but know I am being productive.

My focus is self defense. If I were getting them all the the same hole, or even a ragged hole every single drill then I would definitely been training incorrectly. A hand sized group, fingers spread wide, fired ten times as fast is much more effective. At 7 yards, there is zero time to dilly dally. If he has a knife, you're getting cut very badly even if you get those rounds off. It quickly becomes a question of not if you get stabbed, but stopping him from stabbing you twice. At that distance, you need as much speed as you can get while still being effective. So you learn to fire controlled pairs and non-standard responses of 3-5 rounds and do so in seconds (if that) straight from the holster. That requires a lot of practice, and is far from easy.

That said, it is necessary to do trigger control drills where you slow things down as much as you can so you can focus on the fundamentals. During those drills, your goal regardless of distance is to get them all in the same hole. Doesn't always happen. But if you are way off, that tells you something in your fundamentals needs correcting. The closer to getting them in the same hole, the better your fundamentals are. It comes with time. After an hour or so, you move onto the next drill no matter what your target looks like. You don't just stay on this drill all day long.

My typical training session starts of with dry practice. I take things slow, and focus on the fundamentals. A few drills focus on trigger control and sight alignment, a few focus on drawing from the holster, and so on. I start off slow, and continue slow until I can no longer stand it or I'll scream, and then I speed it up once I'm sure I've dusted my technique off.

Then I start my live fire drills. Again, I start off slow making sure I am focusing a 100% on the fundamentals. A couple hours into it I am actually going full speed. A couple hours after that I am incorporating more and more tactics, when range rules allow it, such as moving from cover to cover and so on. Malfunction drills and the various reloading drills get practiced at each stage of training. They can't all be done dry, but I like to try and incorporate them into other things as much as possible so the training is more realistic.

When I catch myself slipping, I work backwards. First I slow things down a little. If that does not help, I go dry for a while. That usually does the trick. What I do not do is allow myself to rest on my laurels. If my target is looking too perfect, it is definitely time to speed things up and push myself harder.

The main thing is, my goal is not to make a pretty target. My goal is train realistically, pushing myself to the limit, showing a progression of improvement, so that if the day ever comes where I need to use my firearm to defend my life or the lives of others, I'll succeed.

If anything I said above sounds like greek to you then check out the COMPETITION & TRAINING SECTION here on Calguns.net. Look for a TACTICAL PISTOL I or DEFENSIVE HANDGUN course in your area. You will learn a lot and have a ton of fun. There is no better way to learn than by taking a course geared towards self-defense. No matter what your skill level, you will amaze yourself how much you learn and improve.

I've trained with Stone Cobra Tactical here in Northern California and I've trained with Front Sight in Nevada. Learned different techniques from both schools, but the above progression of drills from dry fire practice, to live fire, to working from the holster, to adding tactics was a universal theme of both schools. They just have slightly different stances, grips, and terms for things. Both schools training programs lead to significant improvement in my shooting ability after each course. I've got tons of room for improvement, but thanks to them I am no slouch either. The trick, and the part I find most difficult, is to continue training regularly in between courses. Life tends to get in the way.

Just my $0.02.

vta
09-02-2010, 2:26 PM
I don't disagree with you and think you present a good standard of measure. My personal feeling is that it would be ammo and money better spent taking instruction to learn to manage the trigger correctly to begin with.

When I used to travel to teach groups, our goal was that student be able to shoot accurately at a rate of 5 rounds per second (.20 sec splits) into 8 inches by the end of the weekend. the other thing was to cut playing card in half from that same distance. it just takes understanding the technique and repetition

you are right about trigger management. it is probably the hardest part to get right. that is what shooting fast and accurately is all about. That and recoil control by using a good grip and stance. anything tighter than 12 inches is great but not necessary for home defense.

the technique i described is not my own. its just something i have adopted from instructors and shooters. it actually does not use much ammo. Start slow and move your way up. dry firing does help a lot but there is no substitute for real trigger time with real ammo.

vta
09-02-2010, 2:33 PM
Where are you guys practicing this stuff? I'm new to pistol shooting, and just recently became a member at Firing Line. The rules state that we must allow one second between shots. In my limited experience, these rules are fairly common among ranges, correct?

Is there some place I can do this without having to drive out to BLM land?

go to burro canyon with some buddies and reserve a private range. if at all possible, do it during mid week.

himurax13
09-02-2010, 2:49 PM
I don't know why you couldn't empty the whole mag into 12 inches in 2 seconds...or were you talking about drawing from a concealed holster?

try this one...it's not a drill, it's a test of how solid your fundamental skills are...it's called the F.A.S.T. drill (Fundamentals, Accuracy, & Speed Test) designed by Todd Green

at 7 yards; 35 card (head), 8″ plate (body)

start with 2 rounds in the gun. On a signal, draw and fire 2rds at the card; reload; and fire 4rds at the plate.

* 10+ seconds: Novice
* less than 10 seconds: Intermediate
* less than 7 seconds: Advanced
* less than 5 seconds: Expert

Dave Sevigny holds the record at 3.56 sec

I take it that all rounds must hit to count? :rolleyes:

vta
09-02-2010, 3:03 PM
also take into consideration that your performance with these drills will obviously vary depending on the caliber and the make and model of the gun. Think 115 gr fmj from a Glock 17 versus a 200 gr Hard cast from a Glock 29.

glockman19
09-02-2010, 3:11 PM
At 7 yards you should have all your shots in one ragged hole.

I prefer making 4 leaf clovers

tacticalcity
09-02-2010, 3:21 PM
Where are you guys practicing this stuff? I'm new to pistol shooting, and just recently became a member at Firing Line. The rules state that we must allow one second between shots. In my limited experience, these rules are fairly common among ranges, correct?

Is there some place I can do this without having to drive out to BLM land?

I mentioned Stone Cobra Tactical here in Sacramento. They offer courses once a month. Each month the courses progress in their difficulty level. They cost about $100-$150 (not including ammo). I took Carbine I, II, then Handgun I all in a row this summer. Sadly I got side tracked with family obligations. Plan to get back on that routine soon. With my current skill level I feel comfortable taking level III courses. At the same time, I am fine taking level I courses again as well. Just means more work on the basics. That never hurt anybody.

If the course I want is not available, or I am not available on the day they hold courses I either hit-up a traditional range with all their rules or I go to one of the many open ranges where there are no rules at all. Just depends.

Some ranges like Sac Valley allow you to become a member. In addition to fees they usually require you to take some sort of course where you learn how to properly work from the holster before letting you do so.

SIKwitIT
09-02-2010, 3:52 PM
thanks everyone for the information. I will prolly end up taking some type of pistol combat class. I really enjoy doing drills. Makes its more competitive and exciting. Once again thanks for the information

J-cat
09-02-2010, 8:13 PM
7 yards? 2 inches...

2" at 7 yards sux.

jptsr1
09-02-2010, 8:21 PM
Keep in mind that lying about ones group size is as common as lying about ones "length". Get some of these "precision" shooters out to the range and you will get excuses all day. If you can keep in in the 9 ring at 7 yards with most modern popular pistols on the standard silhouette target your fine in my opinion.

juelz919
09-02-2010, 8:30 PM
if your new and shooting under three inches that's pretty good.. actually very good idkwhere the guys In this thread are shooting but where I shoot (yolo) most people don't shoot six inch groups slow fire..

Most people are literally all over the place and I'm not one to judge they may be practicing a new style or tweaking ttheir stance in some way..

So i'd say your far ahead of the game keep shooting and the groups will get smaller.

Buddhabelly
09-02-2010, 8:42 PM
All the ones who are saying they shoot a ragged hole are the true definition of internet commandoes. You will use any opportunity to thumb your chest and tell the world how great you are. The OP said he's "kinda new to shooting" I'd like to see you all shooting a ragged hole when you first broke in.

The 2 best pistol shooters that I've ever met in real life are Vera Koo and John Bickar. I've shot with them, watched them and tried to learn from them. Guess what, they told me they couldn't shoot a ragged hole in the first YEAR of their shooting.

BTW, Vera is 9 times national champions in steels and John is a member of our country's best shotting team. USA shooting.


http://verakoo.com/site/home/

http://www.ammoland.com/2010/06/25/2010-world-championship-shooting-team-announced/

wsmc27
09-02-2010, 8:51 PM
<snip>
If anything I said above sounds like greek to you then check out the COMPETITION & TRAINING SECTION here on Calguns.net. Look for a TACTICAL PISTOL I or DEFENSIVE HANDGUN course in your area. You will learn a lot and have a ton of fun. There is no better way to learn than by taking a course geared towards self-defense. No matter what your skill level, you will amaze yourself how much you learn and improve.

I've trained with Stone Cobra Tactical here in Northern California and I've trained with Front Sight in Nevada.
<snip>

^^^ Let me second that idea regarding training.

I've learned quite a bit this year from Modern Defense Training (they run their programs at Burro Canyon), and if Stone Cobra keeps that date down my way in October I am gonna learn more with them. I think the $$ these programs cost are well worth it.

More $0.02 :p

:) Have FUN and be safe!

j1133s
09-02-2010, 8:54 PM
kinda new to pistol shooting. Was wondering at 7yrds what would a good 5 round group be for a m&P9 full size?
Finally starting to get a hang of the trigger and where and when it break.
Really stoked about this pistol

A good group size to aim for beginner is 4" at 7yds, slow fire --meaning to take as long as you want to fire each shot.

j1133s
09-02-2010, 9:09 PM
All the ones who are saying they shoot a ragged hole are the true definition of internet commandoes. You will use any opportunity to thumb your chest and tell the world how great you are. The OP said he's "kinda new to shooting" I'd like to see you all shooting a ragged hole when you first broke in.

The 2 best pistol shooters that I've ever met in real life are Vera Koo and John Bickar. I've shot with them, watched them and tried to learn from them. Guess what, they told me they couldn't shoot a ragged hole in the first YEAR of their shooting.

BTW, Vera is 9 times national champions in steels and John is a member of our country's best shotting team. USA shooting.


http://verakoo.com/site/home/

http://www.ammoland.com/2010/06/25/2010-world-championship-shooting-team-announced/

I think shooting 1 hole at 7 yds isn't too difficult for an experienced shooter. I don't know if I can do it any more, but I used to aim for 1" groups at 15 yds (basically shooting a 1" dot out w/ 3-4 shots), and I am by no means a very good shot (I'd say average based on competition results).

Small world, I've shot w/ those 2 before (you'll meet them at SVRGC and they are pretty socialable). I've shot/talked w/ many world/national champs. Although I've never asked since when they can shoot 1 ragged hole :) I usually ask questions on my own shooting and make bad jokes. The good thing about shooting is that you get a chance to meet some really great shots during your range trips.

9mmepiphany
09-02-2010, 9:41 PM
I will prolly end up taking some type of pistol combat class. I really enjoy doing drills.
I would highly recommend a shooting course to tune your shooting fundamentals first...to get the most out of any later combat class you might take.

This class is down in Merced and I would highly recommend it...Bruce Gray is a double Grand Master (USPSA/IPSC & IDPA) who, before he retired, was a factory shooter for H&K (he made the first compensated P7M13) as well as Sig Sauer (shooting Production, he ranked 6th in the world). He is an excellent teacher

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=322253

Buddhabelly
09-02-2010, 10:04 PM
I think shooting 1 hole at 7 yds isn't too difficult for an experienced shooter. I don't know if I can do it any more, but I used to aim for 1" groups at 15 yds (basically shooting a 1" dot out w/ 3-4 shots), and I am by no means a very good shot (I'd say average based on competition results).

Small world, I've shot w/ those 2 before (you'll meet them at SVRGC and they are pretty socialable). I've shot/talked w/ many world/national champs. Although I've never asked since when they can shoot 1 ragged hole :) I usually ask questions on my own shooting and make bad jokes. The good thing about shooting is that you get a chance to meet some really great shots during your range trips.

Ha. You're a member at SR&GC too?

I know, I was kinda nosey.

HCz
09-02-2010, 10:31 PM
My suggestion is to get the basic/fundamental skills taken care of and then take a more advanced class. It doesn't neccessarily have to be a combat class, but a shooting skill class should do too. When you are not hindered by basic skillsets, you will gain more from advanced classes.

As for FAST drill, IIRC, you are supposed to do it from cold. I.e. no prior warming up before doing the drill.

9mmepiphany
09-02-2010, 10:57 PM
As for FAST drill, IIRC, you are supposed to do it from cold. I.e. no prior warming up before doing the drill.
yup, that's why i said it was a test of fundamental skill rather than a drill

I take it that all rounds must hit to count? :rolleyes:
yup, they have to be completely in the card or plate

j1133s
09-03-2010, 9:23 PM
Ha. You're a member at SR&GC too?

I know, I was kinda nosey.

Not a member anymore (I quit after 3 years where I only used the range about 10x... I was working about 3x the amount of my shooting time). BTW, just got email from your friend John B., he's got 100s of rounds of reloads forsale :p

I can't shoot for the next couple months, but we should go to SVRGC sometime. Maybe do one of their ATA trap matches... now that I've renewed my ATA membership just in time to not be able to shoot :(

j1133s
09-03-2010, 9:31 PM
My suggestion is to get the basic/fundamental skills taken care of and then take a more advanced class. It doesn't neccessarily have to be a combat class, but a shooting skill class should do too. When you are not hindered by basic skillsets, you will gain more from advanced classes.

As for FAST drill, IIRC, you are supposed to do it from cold. I.e. no prior warming up before doing the drill.

Good advise.

I think if you can hit 4" at 7yds, you should be able to practice yourself and improve pretty quickly. No classes necessary.

Here's what I think: if you are completely new a basic class is good to give you some ideas on how to shoot. Once you can shoot ok, then you can practice on your own and make good improvements. Then you'll plateau and a few classes are good.

May be my thoughts aren't relevant for combat type shooting, which I don't really do. But they should be very applicable to sports/competition shooting.

Also, a .22LR is good practice tool for sending lead downrange cheaply and relatively accurately.

SIKwitIT
09-03-2010, 9:49 PM
Good advise.

I think if you can hit 4" at 7yds, you should be able to practice yourself and improve pretty quickly. No classes necessary.

Here's what I think: if you are completely new a basic class is good to give you some ideas on how to shoot. Once you can shoot ok, then you can practice on your own and make good improvements. Then you'll plateau and a few classes are good.

May be my thoughts aren't relevant for combat type shooting, which I don't really do. But they should be very applicable to sports/competition shooting.

Also, a .22LR is good practice tool for sending lead downrange cheaply and relatively accurately.

yeah i was starting to think i was really behind the curve with alot of people saying it should be a ragged hole LOL i have about 500 rounds through it and im getting better. Every now and then, very rarely i can connect all 5 rounds or come pretty damn close to doing so. Just really need to be more consistant. And all this is slow shooting maybe a round every 2-3 seconds.

Ive tried to squeeze off several rounds ASAP and damn do i have some work to do hahaha. But its fun and I'm happy with my first pistol purchase

j1133s
09-03-2010, 10:13 PM
yeah i was starting to think i was really behind the curve with alot of people saying it should be a ragged hole LOL i have about 500 rounds through it and im getting better. Every now and then, very rarely i can connect all 5 rounds or come pretty damn close to doing so. Just really need to be more consistant. And all this is slow shooting maybe a round every 2-3 seconds.

Ive tried to squeeze off several rounds ASAP and damn do i have some work to do hahaha. But its fun and I'm happy with my first pistol purchase

1 round every 2-3 secs is a good rate of fire. In fact, NRA "rapid fire" is 2sec/shot... (if I remember correctly)... so you are shooting pretty fast (although their target is at 25yds and shot 1 handed).

When I bring newbies, I always tell them to take as long as they want to aim and send the round to its destination. If they feel tired, put down the arm and rest (I teach them to keep their grip while resting), then bring it up again when they've rested enough. Even if it takes 1 or 2 minutes to fire off a shot, as long as it hits bullseye, all is good.

The above lets you focus on the fundamentals and make every round count. When I take newbies, we actually shoot very little rounds (usually < 100rnds) and have a very fun and challenging time.

I haven't done very fast shooting for over 3 yrs until I went to an IDPA match a few months back. It took me a few stages to get back into the game of fast shooting. I have 2 ways I shoot fast:

#1 (works for targets far and near) I need to get a feel for the gun's recoil and front sight "bounce". Try firing 1 round slowly and watch how your front sight moves up and down. When it comes down, it should come back to your original POA. Once you get a feel for the time this bounce takes, you can coordinate your eyes and trigger finger to pull off the second (or 3rd, 4th, etc.) shoots assoon as the sigth gets back on target. You'll feel this sight bounce has a good rhythm to it.

#2 (works for near targets) I just pull the trigger twice very fast. I don't aim my second shot. This used to work for me pretty well but at last IDPA I missed (2nd shot) a target maybe 2 feet away... So this may need a lot of practice to work.

lazs
09-04-2010, 8:27 AM
Most people will do worse trying to hold a target for 7 seconds or more with a handgun. 3 or four seconds is a long time and you will do about the best at that.. I consider a shot every 3 or 4 seconds normal.

Accuracy is always worthwhile. If you are a tactical underwear steely eyed type even.. you may only have a couple of inches to shoot at. Best you be capable of hitting that.

I have never had gunfights like all the rest of the tactical guys here but I have killed animals where there was only a few inches that counted. Don't see how it would be any different. Hit the car or the helmet.. you missed. hit the car 10 times quick.. you missed ten times quick.

really tho.. anyone should be able to shoot a three inch group with a decent handgun at 7 yards just by using the sights and not spazing out on the trigger.

BamBam-31
09-04-2010, 10:52 AM
thanks everyone for the information. I will prolly end up taking some type of pistol combat class. I really enjoy doing drills. Makes its more competitive and exciting. Once again thanks for the information

First of all, a pistol class is never a bad idea, especially for a beginner trying to establish his fundamentals. Do some reading first to see who's good.

And there are a lot of drills you can do in the comforts of your own home (sans ammo). It's called dry fire, and I'm 100% certain it'll help shrink your group sizes as much as (if not more than) any pistol class. Doesn't hurt that it's free, too, eh? ;)

PistolS&W
09-04-2010, 11:02 AM
I don't know why you couldn't empty the whole mag into 12 inches in 2 seconds...or were you talking about drawing from a concealed holster?

try this one...it's not a drill, it's a test of how solid your fundamental skills are...it's called the F.A.S.T. drill (Fundamentals, Accuracy, & Speed Test) designed by Todd Green

at 7 yards; 35 card (head), 8″ plate (body)

start with 2 rounds in the gun. On a signal, draw and fire 2rds at the card; reload; and fire 4rds at the plate.

* 10+ seconds: Novice
* less than 10 seconds: Intermediate
* less than 7 seconds: Advanced
* less than 5 seconds: Expert

Dave Sevigny holds the record at 3.56 sec


ill have to try this. i think with about 100 rnds and 30 minutes practice ill be in the 5 sec and under club.

normally i just try to draw and shoot 2 rnds center mass best time 1.30

what caliber did this Dave sevigny use to do a 3.56 im shooting .40 s&w

Shenaniguns
09-04-2010, 7:17 PM
I didn't take the class, i just took this from his website...I think Nelson (45R) has taken it.

I like it because it does everything that the El Presidente, except the turn (a bit safer), does with less room and fewer shots. It test the draw and first shot, followup shots, mag change, target transition and target discretion (speed to target ratio)

most practiced shooters do it in a bit over 8 sec...from under a cover garment and mag carriers behind the hip (IDPA style)


I've taken both days last year and the first day this year and I can tell you that the majority of the class lands in the Intermediate range with a few making Advance. I sucked with 8.45 being my best official clean time which my slide failed to lock back and I had to cycle the slide an extra time, I was also fighting my Bladetech WRS "Duty" holster that had busted where it connects to the belt :o Excuses excuses lol

BTW: It's much tougher doing it in front of an audience and Todd Green does not recommend anyone doing more than 4 a day cold since it's a test of the skills you already have, not just to get a fast time.

Here's a list of the FASTest http://pistol-training.com/fastest
Sevigny's record run http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU3jceN4JAc
One of his FASTest student's runs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38mkcHIDFzQ

robcoe
09-04-2010, 9:49 PM
kinda new to pistol shooting. Was wondering at 7yrds what would a good 5 round group be for a m&P9 full size?
Finally starting to get a hang of the trigger and where and when it break.
Really stoked about this pistol

For target shooting, depends on what type your doing.

for HD, about fist sized at the same distance as across the largest room in your house.

PistolS&W
09-05-2010, 10:41 AM
I've taken both days last year and the first day this year and I can tell you that the majority of the class lands in the Intermediate range with a few making Advance. I sucked with 8.45 being my best official clean time which my slide failed to lock back and I had to cycle the slide an extra time, I was also fighting my Bladetech WRS "Duty" holster that had busted where it connects to the belt :o Excuses excuses lol

BTW: It's much tougher doing it in front of an audience and Todd Green does not recommend anyone doing more than 4 a day cold since it's a test of the skills you already have, not just to get a fast time.

Here's a list of the FASTest http://pistol-training.com/fastest
Sevigny's record run http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU3jceN4JAc
One of his FASTest student's runs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38mkcHIDFzQ


yea but you dont get a 3 second time trying it a few times a day. thats the flaw in these type of things if you are super fast all some one has to do is change one simple thing in the routine and your slow as can be again.

thats why im never impressed by guys who can shoot things like this quickly. just need alot of ammo and time and youll be amazing at that ONE thing.

Shenaniguns
09-05-2010, 11:26 AM
yea but you dont get a 3 second time trying it a few times a day. thats the flaw in these type of things if you are super fast all some one has to do is change one simple thing in the routine and your slow as can be again.

thats why im never impressed by guys who can shoot things like this quickly. just need alot of ammo and time and youll be amazing at that ONE thing.


Whatever you say bub :rolleyes: The F.A.S.T. is designed to test the skills you already have, not just getting fast on the drill. Who said it was just one thing? The class is full of drills you get rated at and if you think you can get a great time so easy than take the class and earn an expert rating or just do it on video according to the rules and post it here.
Have you actually went to Pistol-Training.com? Do you know who Dave Sevigny is? If you did than you'd know that they are not just 'gaming' the drill.

PistolS&W
09-05-2010, 11:40 AM
Whatever you say bub :rolleyes: The F.A.S.T. is designed to test the skills you already have, not just getting fast on the drill. Who said it was just one thing? The class is full of drills you get rated at and if you think you can get a great time so easy than take the class and earn an expert rating or just do it on video according to the rules and post it here.
Have you actually went to Pistol-Training.com? Do you know who Dave Sevigny is? If you did than you'd know that they are not just 'gaming' the drill.

nope never been to the site and dont know who dave is. but you said it yourself that they say not to do the drills more then a few times a day as to show actual skill and not skill at that one drill.

so clearly guys who have done it more will get better at these set drills. unless the drills are constantly changing.

i might just take you up on that idea to do it on video although the area i shoot where i could video tape myself doing it just closed for the fire season so it will be a few months.

Shenaniguns
09-05-2010, 11:47 AM
nope never been to the site and dont know who dave is. but you said it yourself that they say not to do the drills more then a few times a day as to show actual skill and not skill at that one drill.

so clearly guys who have done it more will get better at these set drills. unless the drills are constantly changing.

i might just take you up on that idea to do it on video although the area i shoot where i could video tape myself doing it just closed for the fire season so it will be a few months.


Just an FYI, Dave Sevigny is one of the top handgun shooters in the world and easily shoots 50-100,000 rounds a year and dry fires more than that, Todd Green of P-T.com shoots 75-100,000 rounds a year as well. So if you think you can match their skill level in the short time that you say than just prove it ;) BTW, in one of your other posts, you indicated that you have not competed or trained formally yet so do you think you may be a tad overconfident?

nn3453
09-05-2010, 11:54 AM
Just an FYI, Dave Sevigny is one of the top handgun shooters in the world and easily shoots 50-100,000 rounds a year and dry fires more than that, Todd Green of P-T.com shoots 75-100,000 rounds a year as well. So if you think you can match their skill level in the short time that you say than just prove it ;) BTW, in one of your other posts, you indicated that you have not competed or trained formally yet so do you think you may be a tad overconfident?

Heh, all that tactical Rambo style shooting is pointless. If you train hard enough at one thing you will get good at it, so what's the point in training. If I wanted to, I could beat Kobe Bryant if I did just that one thing. But I am a renaissance man, I know how to do everything if I practice hard enough, so I never do anything, since I know I would be great if I did it.

:rolleyes:

9mmepiphany
09-05-2010, 12:12 PM
thats why im never impressed by guys who can shoot things like this quickly. just need alot of ammo and time and youll be amazing at that ONE thing.

I think you're missing the point. This isn't about being go at this one drill...like the El Presidente drill before it...course of fire that gives you an idea of your general skill level.

the skills evaluated are:
1. sweeping the cover garment
2. Master Grip in the holster
3. draw to High Ready
4. Press out to first shot
5. Re-set trigger, re-acquire sights and press trigger for follow-up shot
6. Slide-lock mag change
a) eject mag
b) drawing fresh mag
c) aligning mag and magwell
d) close slide and press back out
7. ability to determine sufficient sight alignment for size of target
8. target transition
9. recoil management
10. ability to manage trigger under pressure

every skill tested is considered a fundamental skill for use of a handgun and directly applicable for defensive use...this isn't about gaming

Shenaniguns
09-05-2010, 12:16 PM
Nice Breakdown :punk:

cmaynes
09-05-2010, 12:23 PM
With competent instructors, classes are never a waste of time. The best shooters take them regularly as well.

Shenaniguns
09-05-2010, 12:34 PM
With competent instructors, classes are never a waste of time. The best shooters take them regularly as well.


Some of the best instructors also train under other instructors as well...

HCz
09-05-2010, 12:49 PM
every skill tested is considered a fundamental skill for use of a handgun and directly applicable for defensive use...this isn't about gaming

+1.

There is, to some extent, truth to the statement that if you do something repeatedly, you will get better at it. Any drill that you do will require you to get used to it. However, it does not mean that doing it over and over again gurantee a stellar result. You have to have fundamentals to back it up, and if not, repeated practice will not result in better time.

There is another drill called Hackathorn drill. The story I heard is that Rob Leatham attempted it for the first time and managed to score 298/300(or something really close to 300). If Rob Leatham did not have the fundamentals, he would not have done it so well.

Same thing goes for FAST drill done by Sevigny. He has solid fundamentals that let him do the drill in an incredible time.

As 9mmepiphany mentioned earlier, this drill is done cold, and Sevigny managed to do it under 4 seconds. Attempting this drill cold probably mitigated some of those 'one trick' advantage.

Blackhawk556
09-05-2010, 7:28 PM
I have a question for the people here who shoot under 2" at 7 yards

what about at 15 yards?

Do you shoot standing or while sitting down resting on a bag?
Some people like to say the shoot under (insert inches) at (insert feet) but they might be sitting using a rest. In my opinion that doesn't count.

Anyone?

Shenaniguns
09-05-2010, 7:34 PM
I have a question for the people here who shoot under 2" at 7 yards

what about at 15 yards?

Do you shoot standing or while sitting down resting on a bag?
Some people like to say the shoot under (insert inches) at (insert feet) but they might be sitting using a rest. In my opinion that doesn't count.

Anyone?

You mean 1" at 7 yards/21 feet? Absolutely not!!! Get some formal training like what 9mm posted, read up on Pistol-Training.com and you'll see we are not talking about bench resting our handguns.

Whatisthis?
09-05-2010, 7:43 PM
I think you're missing the point. This isn't about being go at this one drill...like the El Presidente drill before it...course of fire that gives you an idea of your general skill level.

the skills evaluated are:
1. sweeping the cover garment
2. Master Grip in the holster
3. draw to High Ready
4. Press out to first shot
5. Re-set trigger, re-acquire sights and press trigger for follow-up shot
6. Slide-lock mag change
a) eject mag
b) drawing fresh mag
c) aligning mag and magwell
d) close slide and press back out
7. ability to determine sufficient sight alignment for size of target
8. target transition
9. recoil management
10. ability to manage trigger under pressure

every skill tested is considered a fundamental skill for use of a handgun and directly applicable for defensive use...this isn't about gaming

Very well put. Epiphanys always breaking it down to the point where everyone can understand it better.

9mmepiphany
09-05-2010, 8:10 PM
Very well put. Epiphanys always breaking it down to the point where everyone can understand it better.
Thank you

It is what I've learned to do through teaching...I spend a lot of time listening too

I learn something from every student...how to see things from a different point of view, how people hear what I'm trying to explain

Rob454
09-05-2010, 8:14 PM
I rarely go for the super duper accurate shot. i go more for shot placement in a hurry. I figure if I ever have to shoot im not ( most likely) going to have to be able to take my sweet time aiming, chew gum spit scratch and finally pull the trigger
If I can keep it in a 3-5 inch circle while somewhat quick firing Im fine. if Im doing it really fast 5-7 inches is good for me on a human size target center mass

9mmepiphany
09-05-2010, 11:24 PM
I rarely go for the super duper accurate shot. i go more for shot placement in a hurry. I figure if I ever have to shoot im not ( most likely) going to have to be able to take my sweet time aiming, chew gum spit scratch and finally pull the trigger
I get bored shooting little groups too. When we're talking about one ragged hole at 7 yards, we're talking about standing up and putting 5 shots on target in a couple of seconds

If I can keep it in a 3-5 inch circle while somewhat quick firing Im fine. if Im doing it really fast 5-7 inches is good for me on a human size target center mass
remember that the rule of thumb is that your practice groups will double in size when under pressure

Anchors
09-06-2010, 3:10 AM
We went through <50 rounds of 9mm and 20 rounds of .22lr and the 9mm was through a Gen 2 G19 with a NY-1 trigger

Just wondering, how do you know your grip and stance are fine :p

Maybe it is bad, I don't know.
I've read a lot on the subject and practiced the "formulas", but maybe I would benefit from some formal training. I learn much better in a hands on environment anyway.

meh... not that hard...

<<nudges sandbag rest behind range bag>>:D




Nah... be like golfers... hundreds of $$$ on equipment to "fix it"... who needs lessons?:cool:

Haha lessons cost hundreds of dollars too though. I don't have the money for either.

RP1911
09-06-2010, 8:53 AM
Granted it is a custom gun. Can't do this anymore since my eyesight has gone bad and my hands now shake. Getting old sucks.

Ragged hole:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=67747&stc=1&d=1283791910

Shenaniguns
09-06-2010, 8:56 AM
Nice!!! I assume that is standing unsupported? We're not talking about bench resting in here :)

J-cat
09-06-2010, 9:00 AM
If you don't bench your gun, you won't know how accurate it is.

RP1911
09-06-2010, 9:05 AM
Nice!!! I assume that is standing unsupported? We're not talking about bench resting in here :)

No bench, unsupported and standing.

There was a time I was a really good shot. Not competition level but good. Hence my love affair with 1911 style guns and my addiction to high end ones. To me it is the most natural fitting handgun.

Shenaniguns
09-06-2010, 9:06 AM
If you don't bench your gun, you won't know how accurate it is.


That does not pertain to the subject we are discussing though ;)

Shenaniguns
09-06-2010, 9:06 AM
No bench, unsupported and standing.

There was a time I was a really good shot. Not competition level but good. Hence my love affair with 1911 style guns and my addiction to high end ones. To me it is the most natural fitting handgun.


Awesome!

J-cat
09-06-2010, 9:13 AM
That does not pertain to the subject we are discussing though ;)

Yes it does.

One should know the gun's accuracy before evaluating his own.

9mmepiphany
09-06-2010, 8:18 PM
One should know the gun's accuracy before evaluating his own.
Why?

Do you really believe you are more accurate than any gun you own?

You'll never know a gun's accuracy, unless you fire it out of a machine rest. even when benched, a handgun is still subject to the shooters ability to align the sights and press the trigger. The only time I've found benching a handgun useful is determining if an obvious drift of the POI is due to me or something else...like loose sights or poor ammo

nn3453
09-06-2010, 8:22 PM
Why?

Do you really believe you are more accurate than any gun you own?

You'll never know a gun's accuracy, unless you fire it out of a machine rest. even when benched, a handgun is still subject to the shooters ability to align the sights and press the trigger. The only time I've found benching a handgun useful is determining if an obvious drift of the POI is due to me or something else...like loose sights or poor ammo

Maybe what he means that with the same shooter, a more accurate gun can produce better results from a slow fire, accuracy shooting point of view.

I have guns that shoot an inch @25 yd and others that don't. For pure accuracy work at 25, 50, 75yd, I can hit smaller targets/get better groups with the former.

J-cat
09-06-2010, 9:04 PM
Why?

Do you really believe you are more accurate than any gun you own?



It's not about me being more accurate than my gun. It is about me knowing whether the 5" group I just shot is my fault or the gun's. If my gun can shoot .5" at 7 yards, then I can shoot 1". But if my gun is shooting 2" at 7 yards, then why even bother going to the range?

fsx
09-06-2010, 9:14 PM
It's not about me being more accurate than my gun. It is about me knowing whether the 5" group I just shot is my fault or the gun's. If my gun can shoot .5" at 7 yards, then I can shoot 1". But if my gun is shooting 2" at 7 yards, then why even bother going to the range?

Why even bother going to the range? nice attitude dude:(

9mmepiphany
09-06-2010, 9:20 PM
but how will you know if it is you or the gun if you haven't shot it in a machine rest?

why would you even test, from a rest, at 7 yards....25 yards is pretty much the minimum to determine accuracy.

the old standard of acceptability, for a combat handgun, was 4" at 50 yards from a rollover prone position...that way, you knew you could hit within 2" of your target at that range.

which gun would you own that can only shoot a 2" group at 7 yards?

BamBam-31
09-06-2010, 9:45 PM
Actually, Shenaniguns is correct: J-cat is mistakenly talking about bench shooting a pistol at ranges like 25 yds. or more to first establish the gun's inherent accuracy. Most of his shooting is done at 25 yds. plus. That does not pertain to the OP's question of standing unsupported seven yard group sizes.

I have a question for the people here who shoot under 2" at 7 yards

what about at 15 yards?

Do you shoot standing or while sitting down resting on a bag?
Some people like to say the shoot under (insert inches) at (insert feet) but they might be sitting using a rest. In my opinion that doesn't count.

Anyone?

I only speak for myself, but whenever I refer to group sizes with my pistols, it's always from a standing two-handed unsupported position.

J-cat
09-07-2010, 8:12 AM
Why even bother going to the range? nice attitude dude:(

I'm not one of those people who goes to the range to impress others with the noise my gun makes.

J-cat
09-07-2010, 8:18 AM
Actually, Shenaniguns is correct: J-cat is mistakenly talking about bench shooting a pistol at ranges like 25 yds. or more to first establish the gun's inherent accuracy.

I'm not mistakingly talking about inherent accuracy. I'm proposing that you cannot properly evaluate a 7-yard unsupported group without first knowing what your gun can do. If your gun shoots 2" at 7 yards, and your group is 3", then you have no way to evaluate your skill unless you know your gun shoots 2".

My personal requirement is a maximum group size of 1" at 15 yards.

9mmepiphany
09-07-2010, 8:23 AM
I'm not one of those people who goes to the range to impress others with the noise my gun makes.

I reminds me of the time I was in a class (shooting, not tactical) where folks were comparing how well they were doing and the instructor had everyone cut out the X-ring portion of their target.

He referred to it as a Null Target, the goal was to put your shots into the null zone. Sometimes folks get too hung up in the result of shooting when they should be staying in the process to improve.

the speed of accurate shooting is often compromised when you over-think what you are doing. speed or accuracy by themselves mean nothing, the ability to combine them should be the goal.

J-cat
09-07-2010, 8:30 AM
but how will you know if it is you or the gun if you haven't shot it in a machine rest?

why would you even test, from a rest, at 7 yards....25 yards is pretty much the minimum to determine accuracy.

the old standard of acceptability, for a combat handgun, was 4" at 50 yards from a rollover prone position...that way, you knew you could hit within 2" of your target at that range.



I test a 15 yards... mostly because the targets I use go well with most pistol sights using a 6 o'clock hold at that distance. I can and have shot .25" center to center groups from a rest at that distance. I could get a Ransom rest, but that would take all the fun out of shooting.


which gun would you own that can only shoot a 2" group at 7 yards?

I wouldn't.

BamBam-31
09-07-2010, 8:44 AM
I'm not mistakingly talking about inherent accuracy. I'm proposing that you cannot properly evaluate a 7-yard unsupported group without first knowing what your gun can do. If your gun shoots 2" at 7 yards, and your group is 3", then you have no way to evaluate your skill unless you know your gun shoots 2".

My personal requirement is a maximum group size of 1" at 15 yards.

In that case, IMHO seven yards is too close to evaluate anything about the inherent accuracy of a pistol. Given that most production pistols should shoot around 3" groups at 25 yds. from a rest, at seven yards an off the shelf Glock will be almost indistinguishable from a S&W 952 in most hands. It's simply too close, and we'd be talking in terms of fractions of an inch (as in dime-sized vs. nickel-sized). Variations in group size at that range (say from 2" to 3" groups) can more accurately be attributed to shooter skill than a pistol's inherent accuracy.

9mmepiphany
09-07-2010, 9:02 AM
My personal requirement is a maximum group size of 1" at 15 yards.

wouldn't you be able, when shooting from a rested position, be able to do that at 25 yards?

I will say that I have no idea what any my guns will shoot...and really haven't bothered to test it either. I know I've seen (it wasn't me shooting) my PPC wheelgun keep all the rounds in a match inside a 3x5 card out to 50 yards...that was shooting all DA. I had great fun ringing the plate at Angeles from across the valley...which I would think was about 300 yards.

for me the only point of even shooting small groups is to confirm trigger management

J-cat
09-07-2010, 9:09 AM
wouldn't you be able, when shooting from a rested position, be able to do that at 25 yards?



Not with the targets I use. Five 5" bullseyes printed on a three foot long sheet. I guess I could make my own custom sizes, but if 15 yards feet is good enough for Colt, it's good enough for me ;)

J-cat
09-07-2010, 9:12 AM
for me the only point of even shooting small groups is to confirm trigger management

I handload 99.9% of my ammo. This is my hobby. My goal is to make the most accurate load for the gun I'm shooting. I beat factory accuracy by at least 50%.

J-cat
09-07-2010, 10:09 AM
Given that most production pistols should shoot around 3" groups at 25 yds. from a rest, at seven yards an off the shelf Glock will be almost indistinguishable from a S&W 952 in most hands.

I would not go that far. A 952 has better sights, trigger, sight radius and will shoot half the group size of a Glock in most hands. If were talking combat targets, then yes it don't matter- .5" vs 1" is irrelevant.

9mmepiphany
09-07-2010, 11:44 AM
I handload 99.9% of my ammo. This is my hobby. My goal is to make the most accurate load for the gun I'm shooting. I beat factory accuracy by at least 50%.

you should have said so earlier, it makes complete sense now.

I'd bench a gun if testing loads too...I actually have a friend who doesn't, but we all refer to him as the human machine rest anyway. he can handhold a 2" group at 50 yards...he claims it is a side benefit of his air pistol shooting.

of course he is also a USPSA/IPSC and IDPA Grandmaster and does shoot at a combat target at about 5-6 rounds per second...and he calls all his shots too

BamBam-31
09-07-2010, 1:54 PM
But this thread isn't about you, J-cat, or the type of highly specialized bench shooting and load developing you practice. It's about the OP's offhand group sizes with factory ammo at seven yards. To make it about anything else is missing the target entirely.

Anchors
09-07-2010, 4:36 PM
Man reading all these reports is bumming me out even more on my shooting haha.
What am I doing wrong?

vta
09-07-2010, 5:11 PM
Man reading all these reports is bumming me out even more on my shooting haha.
What am I doing wrong?

you problems is being too honest :)

just start lying and say you shoot a ragged hole at 100 yards with a subcompact pistol off hand drawing from a IWB holster.

Shenaniguns
09-07-2010, 6:49 PM
Who's lying? Some of us have had formal training and 9mm sometimes "assists" Bruce Gray (Firearm Instructor/Gunsmith) in his classes.

Shenaniguns
09-07-2010, 6:50 PM
Man reading all these reports is bumming me out even more on my shooting haha.
What am I doing wrong?


Get some quality training and you can get diagnosed for what you need to do personally to improve.

Black Majik
09-07-2010, 7:13 PM
Man reading all these reports is bumming me out even more on my shooting haha.
What am I doing wrong?

Absolutely nothing. There's a difference from shooting offhand vs. benching your gun with tailored handloads. Apples and oranges.

CSACANNONEER
09-07-2010, 7:18 PM
Who's lying? Some of us have had formal training and 9mm sometimes "assists" Bruce Gray (Firearm Instructor/Gunsmith) in his classes.

I don't think he directed that at you. I have to agree with vta though. I do see a lot of keyboard commandos talk a good game here and never have anything to back up thier claims. Match results or willingness to duplicate skills in front of an audience are great ways to prove one's abilities. I'm not calling you out or challenging your claims. I'm more talking about claims that I have made which people have challenged. When I suggest that we meet at a range so that we can compare our skills and tecniques, they tend to stop posting, come up with excuses or just get very defensive.

Here's a claim that is hard to believe. I have shot a two shot group, from a 50BMG rifle, at 1000 yards that so small, it is impossible to measure. I put the second round in the exact same hole as the first. IIRC, 50BMGBOB has done this too. Anyways, I showed a few Calgunners (SJgunguy24, Nico and a couple others) the spotter disk, with the shattered spotter tube, this last weekend. Without proof and seeing 50BMGBOB do it too, I would not have believed it possible myself.

Anyway, if you can back up your posts, don't take it personally. Instead, realize that vta was targeting his post towards the yahoos who claim to shoot sub moa groups with surplus ammo and mismatched Mosins.

Shenaniguns
09-07-2010, 7:27 PM
I don't think he directed that at you. I have to agree with vta though. I do see a lot of keyboard commandos talk a good game here and never have anything to back up thier claims. Match results or willingness to duplicate skills in front of an audience are great ways to prove one's abilities. I'm not calling you out or challenging your claims. I'm more talking about claims that I have made which people have challenged. When I suggest that we meet at a range so that we can compare our skills and tecniques, they tend to stop posting, come up with excuses or just get very defensive.

Here's a claim that is hard to believe. I have shot a two shot group, from a 50BMG rifle, at 1000 yards that so small, it is impossible to measure. I put the second round in the exact same hole as the first. IIRC, 50BMGBOB has done this too. Anyways, I showed a few Calgunners (SJgunguy24, Nico and a couple others) the spotter disk, with the shattered spotter tube, this last weekend. Without proof and seeing 50BMGBOB do it too, I would not have believed it possible myself.

Anyway, if you can back up your posts, don't take it personally. Instead, realize that vta was targeting his post towards the yahoos who claim to shoot sub moa groups with surplus ammo and mismatched Mosins.


I'm an average shooter and have taken classes and shot with various members of this board, I don't think anything I've posted of my personal skill is hard to believe. Like I said I did an 8.45 which was in the intermediate range which is nothing to brag about IMO, but I actually did it instead of just saying it.

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/251b1b22.jpg

Shenaniguns
09-07-2010, 8:48 PM
BTW, as you can see those groups are at 7 yards with the top two fired quickly and are under an inch and the bottom group fired rapidly are a tad over two inches. This was with a Glock 34 Sevigny sights, TLR-1 and WWB. I did worse this year on the F.A.S.T. and shot a 9.54 due to a 2 second penalty of a low headshot :o

JTROKS
09-07-2010, 9:13 PM
For defensive purposes if you can put your rounds on target faster than the other guy you won. For paper punching go as small as you can, if you can put all your 9mm rounds in a .40 hole then that is an excellent grouping.

9mmepiphany
09-07-2010, 10:07 PM
I'm an average shooter and have taken classes and shot with various members of this board, I don't think anything I've posted of my personal skill is hard to believe. Like I said I did an 8.45 which was in the intermediate range which is nothing to brag about IMO, but I actually did it instead of just saying it.

the top pair is excellent, as I know you wanted to get to that fresh mag for the reload :D ...good focus on waiting for the sight to return

many things are hard to believe until you've seen them done and sometimes until it is explained how to do it. think of how fast 5 shots per sec sounds or how hard cutting a playing card edgewise seems until you've done it...it is like Chris, from Top Shot, felt when he drove two nails with a revolver shooting DA using only one hand (BTW: he's a GGI alumni from when we held a class in Ohio)

If folks want to shoot better, all they need to have is an open mind and a willingness to take a good shooting class

Anchors
09-07-2010, 11:23 PM
you problems is being too honest :)

just start lying and say you shoot a ragged hole at 100 yards with a subcompact pistol off hand drawing from a IWB holster.

Haha wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of being too honest. But I value honesty above all else, even though it gets me in trouble sometimes.

Get some quality training and you can get diagnosed for what you need to do personally to improve.

Any recommendations for where/who/what kind of training? (All replies welcome.)

This is from my last trip to the range. Pretty bad.

http://i54.tinypic.com/5uzir.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/vn1lx3.jpg

vta
09-07-2010, 11:34 PM
This is from my last trip to the range. Pretty bad.

for a right hander, shooting low and to the left is probably the most common problem. practice a slow an straight squeeze to the back and try not to jerk the trigger. let the break be a surprise to you if possible. you also might have you finger placed incorrectly on the trigger. consciously try to center the pad of your index finger on there. all this at first will probably mean a long pause between shots but it will speed up as you get better.

http://www.lasc.us/correction_chart_logo_small.gif.jpg

Anchors
09-08-2010, 12:45 AM
for a right hander, shooting low and to the left is probably the most common problem. practice a slow an straight squeeze to the back and try not to jerk the trigger. let the break be a surprise to you if possible. you also might have you finger placed incorrectly on the trigger. consciously try to center the pad of your index finger on there. all this at first will probably mean a long pause between shots but it will speed up as you get better.


*Sorry to the OP if this seems like I jacked your thread haha, but maybe this info will help us both.*

Thanks man. I really like that chart too.
I think I do need to slow down. I go about once a second and it helps make the shot a "surprise" to me and actually helped a little bit, but I need to work on slowing down.
I have big hands and even with the large backstrap on my G17Gen4 I think I put too much finger on the trigger sometimes. After my first shot it slides up to a more natural feeling position on the trigger.
I wish I could afford some lessons. I want to be a really good shot. I'm comfortable enough with myself for self-defense, but I want to be a good target shooter.

Black Majik
09-08-2010, 7:55 AM
*Sorry to the OP if this seems like I jacked your thread haha, but maybe this info will help us both.*

Thanks man. I really like that chart too.
I think I do need to slow down. I go about once a second and it helps make the shot a "surprise" to me and actually helped a little bit, but I need to work on slowing down.
I have big hands and even with the large backstrap on my G17Gen4 I think I put too much finger on the trigger sometimes. After my first shot it slides up to a more natural feeling position on the trigger.
I wish I could afford some lessons. I want to be a really good shot. I'm comfortable enough with myself for self-defense, but I want to be a good target shooter.

One shot a second is still too fast. You have all the time in the world for each shot. Slow down your breathing, line up your sights to the target, focus on the front sight. Slowly squeeze the trigger to take up the slack in the trigger in your Glock without disrupting your sight picture. RESIST the URGE to pull the trigger after taking up the slack! Slowly squeeze the trigger again, this time expecting a surprise break. As the gun fires, hold back the trigger, follow through watching your front sight rise then fall. Slowly release the trigger until you feel the reset. Take up the slack and start over.

Shenaniguns
09-08-2010, 8:45 AM
the top pair is excellent, as I know you wanted to get to that fresh mag for the reload :D ...good focus on waiting for the sight to return

many things are hard to believe until you've seen them done and sometimes until it is explained how to do it. think of how fast 5 shots per sec sounds or how hard cutting a playing card edgewise seems until you've done it...it is like Chris, from Top Shot, felt when he drove two nails with a revolver shooting DA using only one hand (BTW: he's a GGI alumni from when we held a class in Ohio)

If folks want to shoot better, all they need to have is an open mind and a willingness to take a good shooting class


If I didn't press out before realizing the slide didn't lock back originally would have helped as well :o

J-cat
09-08-2010, 10:12 AM
But this thread isn't about you, J-cat, or the type of highly specialized bench shooting and load developing you practice. It's about the OP's offhand group sizes with factory ammo at seven yards. To make it about anything else is missing the target entirely.

I know this isn't about me. Why is it so hard for you to understand that it is not possibe to determine the OP's skill level without knowing what his gun/load is capable of? You are assuming his gun/load will print a 1" group at 7 yards. It only takes a few minutes to sit down and confirm this. You'd be surprised to find out that your assumption is oftentimes incorrect and the gun shoots much worse.

If the gun/load combo shoots 2" at 7 yards and the OP prints a 3" group, then his skill level is excellent. If his gun/load combo is capable of .5" then his skill level needs improvement. That's all.

Black Majik
09-08-2010, 10:39 AM
I know this isn't about me. Why is it so hard for you to understand that it is not possibe to determine the OP's skill level without knowing what his gun/load is capable of? You are assuming his gun/load will print a 1" group at 7 yards. It only takes a few minutes to sit down and confirm this. You'd be surprised to find out that your assumption is oftentimes incorrect and the gun shoots much worse.

If the gun/load combo shoots 2" at 7 yards and the OP prints a 3" group, then his skill level is excellent. If his gun/load combo is capable of .5" then his skill level needs improvement. That's all.

Because the OP's question is "What is a good group size," not "What is the tiniest group I can squeeze out of my combat handgun." Everytime these types of accuracy questions come up you seem to like to show everyone how small your groups are, however irrelevent they are to the OP's question.

It's 7 yards for heavens sake.

lazs
09-08-2010, 10:52 AM
The idea of shooting from a bench at say 25 yards is to actually see where the gun shoots and adjust sights and to determine what is accurate ammo/load for that gun.

You do realize that while the standard for most full sized guns is a 3" group at 25 yards.. some ammo may shoot 2" and others 5" out of a particular gun. You would not know that. Now.. Unless you plan on shooting at 7 yards for the rest of your life I would advise that you find out where the gun is shooting and what it will do with various brands of ammo or reloads.

Course.. I am not a real killer gunfighter like a lot of you guys who gets into 7 yard shootings every week. I kinda like to shoot handguns. I kinda like to know where they will shoot at all ranges and if they are sighted in or not.

I agree with j-cat in that you really need to know what the gun is capable of.. if it will shoot 2" groups at 7 yards then 3" is reasonable.. if, on the other hand.. you buy your local cheapo ammo cause you can't be bothered to reload much less sight in your gun.. and the gun and ammo combo is only capable of 3" then you can shoot forever trying to improve your 4" groups and just burn up powder.

I have lost track of all the guns that shooters told me were not accurate and were just not sighted in properly or were using ammo the gun did not like.

For me.. My standard is that I should be able to shoot a group at 25 yards by just standing and blasting that is about double what I will get from sandbags. 2" becomes 4"...groups for the 4" guns tend to not even stay on the paper for most folks at 25 yards.. you tend to see a pattern more than a group from some guns and shooters at 25 yards even tho they can shoot 2 or 3" groups pretty fast at 7 yards.

I have never shot at 7 yards much because there is nothing I want to do with a handgun that is at 7 yards or less.

Shenaniguns
09-08-2010, 11:27 AM
I have never shot at 7 yards much because there is nothing I want to do with a handgun that is at 7 yards or less.



Then I'm sure you'd be awesome at this drill...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU3jceN4JAc

And don't get it twisted, just because we are discussing 7 yards now does not mean that is the only distance we shoot at, but you should know that as I and others have discussed shooting to 25-100 yards multiple times with you in other threads. BTW, should I sign you up for the next Aim Fast Hit Fast so you can show us a thing or two ;)

BamBam-31
09-08-2010, 12:53 PM
I know this isn't about me. Why is it so hard for you to understand that it is not possibe to determine the OP's skill level without knowing what his gun/load is capable of? You are assuming his gun/load will print a 1" group at 7 yards. It only takes a few minutes to sit down and confirm this. You'd be surprised to find out that your assumption is oftentimes incorrect and the gun shoots much worse.

If the gun/load combo shoots 2" at 7 yards and the OP prints a 3" group, then his skill level is excellent. If his gun/load combo is capable of .5" then his skill level needs improvement. That's all.

If an off the shelf gun shooting decent quality factory ammo can't group 1" at seven yards from a rest, something's wrong. I'd say that assumption is pretty safe and a point on which we will simply have to disagree. (No, I haven't benched my guns at seven yards, but I have shot offhand coin-sized groups at that range with various different stock pistols. Enough to know this to be true.)

It's not that what you're saying is wrong necessarily, it's that it's marginally relevant at best. If the OP were asking about 25 yd. groups, then by all means post your groupings. As more than one poster has noticed, however, your "point" serves more as a segway into highlighting your own abilities and practices than offering the OP a substantive opinion on his particular post.

I've seen you shoot, and I admire your approach and the knowledge you've gained from it. Nevertheless, the OP was asking about a seven yard offhand group, and I have yet to see you shoot a handgun unsupported.

J-cat
09-09-2010, 8:36 AM
I have yet to see you shoot a handgun unsupported.

Are you my shadow?

Why resist benching the gun? It only takes a minute.

Shenaniguns
09-09-2010, 8:39 AM
Are you my shadow?

Why resist benching the gun? It only takes a minute.


http://moviesmedia.ign.com/movies/image/article/934/934535/the-top-25-comic-book-movie-posters-20081201002944988.jpg

lazs
09-09-2010, 2:35 PM
shenanigans.. Like I said.. I really have no use for any 7 yard handgun shooting. I really don't care how fast it can be done and if that was all that mattered I would just wear a single action revolver. It is still the fastest gun from holster to first shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkViQc1KC-g&feature=related

As for your challenge.. next time you are in the area look me up. I told you I have no interest in going to lost angeles.

munden can shoot a snub nose at 200 yards too.. does that prove that he knows more than you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk&feature=related

You may be gods gift to hangunners and the winner of every shoot fast at 7 yards contest around.. Heck.. if you are having fun that is all that counts but I have not seen one gunfight.. real gunfight.. that matched all that training. It will boil down to hitting what you are shooting at and the will to do that.

None of this.. none of what me or you think is great "training" changes the fact that it is essential that you know what your gun and ammo is capable of and that the gun be sighted in properly. There is no better way to do that than to take a few moments out of your busy schedule of fighting evil in the world and shooting the hordes of cardboard bad guys and.. just do a little bench work.

25 yards will work... more is better if you sight in at 50 and have a good load for 50 then it will most likely be a good load at every range practical for that gun/load.

Shooting lots of rounds as fast as you can into a target at 7 yards? fun I guess but in reality.. How much fight is someone who just got hit in the chest with even one 44 mag gonna have in him?

I kid with you because I think that all this "self defense" and such are getting a tad out of hand and that none of us will ever (hopefully) be in a gunfight.

BamBam-31
09-09-2010, 2:43 PM
Are you my shadow?

Why resist benching the gun? It only takes a minute.

:p Hardly. We've been frequenting the same ranges (SGVGC and ASR) for some years now, and it's not too difficult remembering the regulars. I think I even snagged some of your 9mm brass by mistake. :oops:

As for my views on benching a pistol, 9mmepiphany pretty much covered it: It's great for testing your gear. Like the OP, however, I'm more interested in testing myself.

Shenaniguns
09-09-2010, 2:55 PM
Your memory is bad, I'm in the Sacramento area (look in the right hand corner) and said we can go shooting at Sac Valley or Yolo :rolleyes:

And to repeat myself once again, I do shoot handguns out to 100+ yards on occasion and shot these groups at 25 yards 2 hands unsupported:

Before I drifted the rear sight a tad and this is with less than 500 rounds of experience with this new platform:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/57a19281.jpg


With my old Les Baer standing unsupported again at 25 yards and cheap Winchester White Box:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/100_0918.jpg

Will I ever bench my handguns to see what it's mechanical accuracy is? If I ever get hold of a Ransom Rest I will

.

lazs
09-09-2010, 3:05 PM
Oops.. didn't bother to look.. at one time I had a couple of guys wanting to prove that that.. something.. by shooting against me.. they were in lost angeles area

I'm at yolo all the time.. if I see ya I see ya. They won't allow rapid fire though. In fact.. they just changed things so that they won't allow handguns on the 100 yard line unless you are checked out as competent on the 50. I think that there is more farm work being done behind the range these days. Sure would hate to see this range crowded out.

I shoot at my brothers place in woodland more.

The way things are going I am looking to buy some property around williams or out that way just to have to shoot on.

But seriously.. do you really not agree with me that a person should sight in his gun and load?

lazs
09-09-2010, 3:35 PM
shennanigans.. those are great groups just standing and blasting away. I really don't think either gun would do much better from sandbags with any old ammo you happen to pick up.. my best standing groups are no better. My best bench groups are about half that. On a GOOD day with a really good load. I will admit that I am a mostly 4" standing and blasting away at 25 yards guy. I also admit that I measure a bit different. I go from center of round to center of furthest round.. that would only open up your groups a half inch in any case... very good shooting.. will be fun to shoot with you.

I think that you will admit that you don't see that many guys shooting sub 3" groups just standing there and I don't think it is productive to tell someone that is shooting 3" groups at 7 yards that he doesn't need to bench for sights and ammo.

HCz
09-09-2010, 4:54 PM
Oops.. didn't bother to look.. at one time I had a couple of guys wanting to prove that that.. something.. by shooting against me.. they were in lost angeles area

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=301151
Which you initially suggested yourself
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=4301110&postcount=114
If you can do better then email me and I will give you my address and we will do shoot.

To which some people suggested that they would meet you at HB Firingline.
And you replied
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=4312469&postcount=133
Not going to smogville indoor ranges...

Now you got someone from Yolo, and someone in Los Angeles area.

BamBam-31
09-09-2010, 5:10 PM
Don't feed the trolls, boys. ;)

Black Majik
09-09-2010, 5:38 PM
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/RChang824/motivatorabf7b0b721f68355184579040d.jpg

nn3453
09-09-2010, 6:26 PM
Don't feed the trolls, boys. ;)

It is funny how he manages to walk the line without actually crossing into ban territory.

fsx
09-09-2010, 6:49 PM
what going on here?

lazs
09-10-2010, 7:05 AM
nope.. not going to smog city or some indoor range. I am at yolo and told shennanigans I would be glad to shoot with him. He seems to be an excellent shot and I am sure we would enjoy ourselves. I was maybe a tad better than that when I was younger and am now a tad worse than that.

We can't shoot rapid fire there. I have even been told to slow down at one every couple of seconds.

I am still trying to figure out what either one of us winning a shooting match would actually mean though. I have said that I have no interest in the pretend combat games.

I guess we could go on a boar hunt or go for ground squirrels but not sure what that would prove either.

My statement is fact tho. You really don't know what the gun is capable of or where it shoots or what ammo it likes unless you bench it. You might have a good idea if you are really really good at two handed shooting like shennanigans is but I bet he can shoot better groups and know exactly where the sights are from the bench.

If all you shoot is factory ammo then it isn't quite as important.. You never know how that stuff will shoot.. even the same brand and weight might shoot different from lot to lot.

No matter how good you are standing.. you will know more if you bench.

I think one of the things going on here is someone is asking about what is a good group size and how to improve it.

People are approching that question from two very different angles. One is "combat accuracy and speed" something that is relatively new to handgun shooting and has a heavy emphasis on this board.

The other approach is pure accuracy and getting there.. doing groups as close to the capability of the load and gun as possible.. more of a "traditional" way of looking at it.

In the former.. if you shoot really really fast.. then any group that hits.... dare I say it.. something representing a fellow human being.. is great. An exaggeration I admit.

In the latter.. you try to do everything you can to get the best groups.

Often these two groups are as opposite as red and blue America. Guys like shennanigans are cross overs with.. it seems a bias toward the combat mode but very capable shots none the less.

Just as I have seen cowboy action shooters with their powder puff near BB gun loads who can crossover and are, or were to start with, excellent shots.

I am saying that if someone new does nothing but train to shoot fast at 7 yards then he will be missing out and never be well rounded handgunner. Shennanigans himself admits to shooting at distance a lot.

My point is that there is nothing about cowboy action shooting or the close range combat games that I really care about or can think of any use for.

The only person on this board who talked about a shooting he was involved in.. showed video even.. was a man who had to run 10 feet to get a snubby revolver and he shot two bad guys.. He had the will to win.. the gun worked fine with a snub barrel and 5 shots.

Another guy here says that because some guy held off "20 gang members" with an Ak 47 clone.. that is proof that we need lots and lots and lots of shots in the magazine.. course.. the ak guy didn't shoot lots and lots of shots and in kalifornia we can only have 10 rounds but.. those are minor details.

Every month the "Rifleman" publishes a half a dozen or so civilian shootings. They do not seem to be training or equipment dependent.. They seem to be "will" dependent. You can go to their archives and revue about 5,000 shootings.

I have never felt unarmed hunting a 250 lb boar with a 6 shot 44 mag and don't feel a person is any worse.. I hope that I never have to shoot a person. I have had to point a gun at a person and that was the end of it.

I know one of the instructors at frontsite pretty well.. He is a far better sport about this stuff than some here.

Sajedene
09-10-2010, 8:26 AM
what going on here?

My thoughts exactly.

For fun - I figured this is okay for my noob self.

http://sajedene.com/superhost/FNFL/nikkiglock27target08-27-10.jpg

That's about more or less 30 feet?

3 mags later...

http://sajedene.com/superhost/FNFL/nikkiglocktargetcloseup.jpg

I still suck with some other guns though. I need to start keeping track of the guns the guys let me shoot with and what they are so I know what I do good with and what I suck at and figure that out.

Any advice is welcome as well.

nn3453
09-10-2010, 8:35 AM
I still suck with some other guns though. I need to start keeping track of the guns the guys let me shoot with and what they are so I know what I do good with and what I suck at and figure that out.

Any advice is welcome as well.

At 10yd, all your shots should be within the inner most ring if you are going for slow fire. 7-10yd is "conversation distance." Ideally, it should all be one ragged hole. For rapid fire, the target you posted is fine. You are basically within the "A" zone. Keep working on the fundamentals.

Shenaniguns
09-10-2010, 8:37 AM
You keep wanting to divide shooters into groups when many of us do all kinds of shooting with various guns at various distances and speed. I have no problem with anyone who prefers a revolver as there are an uncountable amount of revolver owners who would put me to shame overall. I consider myself an average shooter who had more time and money previously that allowed me to stay proficient, I rarely get time to go out and shoot like I did just 2 years back but I have priorities that come first. When things settle down, I'll be able to get back to more practice and training and shooting more than a few times a year.

viet4lifeOC
09-10-2010, 8:39 AM
Saledene,

Seriously... at 30 feet and that's what you shoot...I AM FREAKIN IMPRESSED.

I must be missing something OR I have very low standards OR BOTH :)

viet4lifeOC
09-10-2010, 8:42 AM
So a ragged hole verses what Saldene shot at 30 feet...what's the difference? Isn't the BG dead regardless?

From OP original question and 4 pages later...I don't get it.

BamBam-31
09-10-2010, 8:53 AM
Sajedene is pretty new to shooting, and she picked a pistol that most would have difficulty shooting as her first: A subcompact .40s&w Glock 27. Overall, I'd say she's doing well--she enjoys the sport and she has friends that can help her improve. She really needs a .22lr, however (hint hint :p).

That said, as 9mmepiphany said, under stress, your group sizes will double. Add movement in to that, and you're looking at misses. That's why you train to shoot as accurately as you can. That's why you train with rapid fire drills as well. That's why, despite what some trolls may say, gun games like USPSA have value. It's ALL part of a learning process--to dismiss one part in favor of another is simply ignorant.

viet4lifeOC
09-10-2010, 8:58 AM
[QUOTE=BamBam-31;4934522] That said, as 9mmepiphany said, under stress, your group sizes will double. Add movement in to that, and you're looking at misses. That's why you train to shoot as accurately as you can. That's why you train with rapid fire drills as well. [QUOTE]

I see. good point. WOW.. 40 S&W and subcompact.

I feel such a girly man..hopefully PPTing a Glock35 today..and it being a polymer gun and 40 actually worries me :)

Black Majik
09-10-2010, 9:11 AM
I see. good point. WOW.. 40 S&W and subcompact.

I feel such a girly man..hopefully PPTing a Glock35 today..and it being a polymer gun and 40 actually worries me :)

She's tougher than I am. A couple of years ago I took 6 months to convince myself I wanted a G23. I always found it snappy, it took a few range rentals to decide to go for it. I wanted a compact pistol with a caliber starting with 4. Met up with Bambam-31 and another friend to go to Insight to try it out for the first time. Sold it a month later. :D

Shenaniguns
09-10-2010, 9:19 AM
Sajedene is pretty new to shooting, and she picked a pistol that most would have difficulty shooting as her first: A subcompact .40s&w Glock 27. Overall, I'd say she's doing well--she enjoys the sport and she has friends that can help her improve. She really needs a .22lr, however (hint hint :p).

That said, as 9mmepiphany said, under stress, your group sizes will double. Add movement in to that, and you're looking at misses. That's why you train to shoot as accurately as you can. That's why you train with rapid fire drills as well. That's why, despite what some trolls may say, gun games like USPSA have value. It's ALL part of a learning process--to dismiss one part in favor of another is simply ignorant.


Well said, and yes she is shooting well.

Shenaniguns
09-10-2010, 9:21 AM
She's tougher than I am. A couple of years ago I took 6 months to convince myself I wanted a G23. I always found it snappy, it took a few range rentals to decide to go for it. I wanted a compact pistol with a caliber starting with 4. Met up with Bambam-31 and another friend to go to Insight to try it out for the first time. Sold it a month later. :D


.40 is fine if it is issued to you and you're not paying for it :D

viet4lifeOC
09-10-2010, 9:24 AM
. Met up with Bambam-31 and another friend to go to Insight to try it out for the first time. Sold it a month later. :D


hahahaha...damn. I post a thread as a back up plan.. 40-9 conversion barrel for the G35

9mmepiphany
09-10-2010, 9:46 AM
Sajedene is pretty new to shooting, and she picked a pistol that most would have difficulty shooting as her first: A subcompact .40s&w Glock 27. Overall, I'd say she's doing well--she enjoys the sport and she has friends that can help her improve. She really needs a .22lr, however (hint hint :p).
She's tougher than I am. A couple of years ago I took 6 months to convince myself I wanted a G23. I always found it snappy
Me too :p

The only reason I even own a .40 (G22 & Beretta 96) is because I took them in to make make up on a trade...there is all kinds of downside to learning with a .40. the only Glock I shoot regularly is the G19.

Black Majik- have her work on her support hand grip pressure, relax her strong hand and not locking her elbows

Black Majik
09-10-2010, 9:48 AM
Me too :p

The only reason I even own a .40 (G22 & Beretta 96) is because I took them in to make make up on a trade...there is all kinds of downside to learning with a .40. the only Glock I shoot regularly is the G19.

Black Majik- have her work on her support hand grip pressure, relax her strong hand and not locking her elbows

Tang, she's a lefty. Can you rediagnose?

Thanks.

9mmepiphany
09-10-2010, 11:24 AM
I took that into consideration...I figured I was safe unless she flipped the avatar picture...otherwise the rounds on paper would lean the other way.

It looks like she's squeezing with her left hand when she's pressing the trigger. she needs consistent pressure with her right hand, lateral pressure, to hold the gun...she thinks it's going to jump out of her hand.
Is she gripping with her left thumb at all?
Does she have her right thumb up parallel with the slide?

I have to meet a client at the range, be back later

Black Majik
09-10-2010, 12:30 PM
I took that into consideration...I figured I was safe unless she flipped the avatar picture...otherwise the rounds on paper would lean the other way.

It looks like she's squeezing with her left hand when she's pressing the trigger. she needs consistent pressure with her right hand, lateral pressure, to hold the gun...she thinks it's going to jump out of her hand.
Is she gripping with her left thumb at all?
Does she have her right thumb up parallel with the slide?

I have to meet a client at the range, be back later

Thanks for the advice, will look into it next time. Only question I can answer is that she has a pretty good thumbs forward grip. She seems consistent though from what I've seen with groups in COM instead of low-right, high-left etc...

9mmepiphany
09-10-2010, 4:54 PM
I would not be unhappy with that grouping. the lateral dispersion is changing grip pressure, the smaller groups indicate that her grip is shifting, possible from recoil, during a string of fire (ie:she's not sure what the correct grip feels like yet and doesn't correct between/during strings)

you realize this is without having seen her shoot and could be completely wrong, but i'll bet if she were shooting a G19 that all her shots would be in a cluster

BamBam-31
09-10-2010, 5:02 PM
I would not be unhappy with that grouping. the lateral dispersion is changing grip pressure, the smaller groups indicate that her grip is shifting, possible from recoil, during a string of fire (ie:she's not sure what the correct grip feels like yet and doesn't correct between/during strings)

you realize this is without having seen her shoot and could be completely wrong, but i'll bet if she were shooting a G19 that all her shots would be in a cluster

Was trying to convince her of exactly that last time out. Bigger gun in 9mm would be just the ticket, w/ a .22lr for cheap practice.

Dom, ya readin' this? :)

orangeusa
09-10-2010, 5:19 PM
I know this has been brought up, but I stood at a range for almost a year shooting and got to be adequate out to about 14 yards. Pretty good groups - better than most folks at the indoor range, but that doesn't take much.

Then took 2 tactical courses and eliminated almost all flyers, and am more comfortable shooting first DA shot...

Still battling past 14-25 yards. Hell, some shots MISS 8.5"x11" PAPER at 15 yards and further.... I think it has to do with front sight COVERING target at that range.. And my eyes... But if I empty the mag, most are near the center.. :)

BTW - there ARE guys who can shoot centerfire pistols in a ragged ~1" hole at 10-12 yards two arm standing. Not ME but I've seen a few. Not counting the competition air gun/22LR guys....

And guys who shoot a pistol from a rest don't count.
It's hard to lug a rest around when somebody is breaking into your home... :)

.

Sajedene
09-10-2010, 6:08 PM
Was trying to convince her of exactly that last time out. Bigger gun in 9mm would be just the ticket, w/ a .22lr for cheap practice.

Dom, ya readin' this? :)

I just did! I am so glad I did too - last minute, my friend has asked me to take her to the range. So I will try and keep these in mind tonight (oh yah if any of you guys are in Burbank I'll be there - didn't start a thread since its so last minute)

I know I need to be consistent. That is a thing with me. And I do realize that not all guns shoot the same, which is why I said that I suck with some guns but do really well with others - just need to understand the mechanics and why so I can adjust accordingly.

I do think the gun will pop out of my hand sometimes. Before, it used to, until I changed my stance. Now it doesn't but my subconscious still think it does sometimes, which is when I flinch I think. I've also been trying to have less intervals between shots and that causes the pulling me thinks.

Um, what else? I am typing this from work while my boss keeps me here as he talks in his meeting. Blaaah...

But really, thank you! And 9mmepiphany thank you as well. You seem like a great teacher. Wish you were in the area so I can get more hands on advice.

To the awesome guys I go to Firing Line with, yes, I'll look for a .22 :p and you guys rock for helping me get to where I am; helping a newbie like me and letting me shoot your guns and showing me how to do it right. This is why Calguns is so awesome.

I will pay it forward to my friend tonight, hopefully she enjoys it as much as I do and we'll have another person to add here. (And yes, I'll find a way to make it out to an outdoor range with you all soon. I promise!)

Beetle Bailey
09-10-2010, 6:28 PM
Sajedene, don't forget that as a member, you have free access to any of the range's rental guns. Let your friend try one :)

BTW, after getting her practice in with the Glock 27, she shot a G17 and an 9mm Kimber 1911 VERY WELL.

Sajedene
09-10-2010, 7:02 PM
Oh yeah, I'm renting her a gun for sure. I don't want to scare them away ahaha :x

Anyway I gotta go - and aww shucks I wouldn't go all caps on that. :o

Shenaniguns
09-10-2010, 7:45 PM
This group is decent lol


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9mmepiphany
09-10-2010, 8:26 PM
And 9mmepiphany thank you as well. You seem like a great teacher. Wish you were in the area so I can get more hands on advice.

Thank you, you're more than welcome...I hope it helps. The guys and I know each other from a Grayguns class we held at Angeles so I know you're in good hands. If I was better at planning, I should have let you guys know that I was in town on Wednesday last...I was dropping my kid off at CalArts in Valencia

I can trade getting you shooting like a pro for getting me into commercials :willy_nilly:

Sajedene
09-10-2010, 10:10 PM
I can trade getting you shooting like a pro for getting me into commercials :willy_nilly:

I can make that happen :)

ChrisToad
09-11-2010, 5:12 PM
I just did! I am so glad I did too - last minute, my friend has asked me to take her to the range. So I will try and keep these in mind tonight (oh yah if any of you guys are in Burbank I'll be there - didn't start a thread since its so last minute)

I was there... but just seeing this now. Were you sporting pink ear protection & gloves?

Sajedene
09-11-2010, 8:56 PM
I was there... but just seeing this now. Were you sporting pink ear protection & gloves?

OMG yes :x Which one were you?

Wait... were you the one in the blue shirt?

viet4lifeOC
09-11-2010, 11:12 PM
We got a love connection go'in

ChrisToad
09-12-2010, 9:38 AM
OMG yes :x Which one were you?

Wait... were you the one in the blue shirt?

Is "I don't remember" an acceptable answer? LOL. I guess I can check my laundry when I get home... Ha

I was reorganizing my range bag at the glass window and got a pretty good laugh at your friend taking pictures of everyone's butt with her digital camera.

Stand by for PM

Shenaniguns
09-12-2010, 9:51 AM
Maybe take this to PM so I don't get notified for the off-topic conversation.

lazs
09-13-2010, 8:37 AM
shenaniguns.. I am easy to find at yolo.. you don't even need to know my name.. I am the guy driving the 69 big block el camino..

If you do go can you bring that gun? I would love to shoot at 50 yards over sandbags with that gun. I have never shot a one inch group at 50 yards with a handgun but.. I would love to see if I could with that gun and ammo.. at least I would have you there to judge my performance against.

Heck.. I feel good when I get sub one inch groups at 50 yards with my open sighted Garands and handloads. Never even shot a glass optic handgun.