PDA

View Full Version : Pistol Grip Alternative?


AxonGap
05-11-2006, 3:45 PM
Since the fixed mag portion of the DOJ memo is a lightning rod issue perhaps we should start giving more alternatives to the pistol grip dilemma. Threw this idea together pretty quick so the scale might be a bit off. I'm a noob at posting so critique away! Note the the thumb rest.

See Revision 2 if you think it looks too much like a thumbhole stock

***Another revision 3b is detached from the stock. 3a would be integrated.

blacklisted
05-11-2006, 3:46 PM
It's a thumbhole stock.

magmaster
05-11-2006, 3:48 PM
Can't have a thumbhole stock either unfortunately

AxonGap
05-11-2006, 3:55 PM
The hole is basically for looks and not integral to the stock's function. The thumb rest would be for primary grip. Also, would'nt the holes location above the imaginary lame (I mean line) be within the parameters? If you take a closer look you would have to have an enormous hand to achieve that grip. Modify away!

kenc9
05-11-2006, 4:02 PM
If it were a thumb socket and not a thumb hole would work. Just something to grip on to, I am sure if things stay the same these will start coming out.

-ken

adamsreeftank
05-11-2006, 4:04 PM
The hole is basically for looks and not integral to the stock's function. The thumb rest would be for primary grip. Also, would'nt the holes location above the imaginary lame (I mean line) be within the parameters? If you take a closer look you would have to have an enormous hand to achieve that grip. Modify away!

Why take a chance for looks. YOUR hand doesn't need to be able to put the thumb in. The DOJ has an agent with REALLY long fingers they use for that kind of test. Just like their agent with REALLY strong hands who can twist off a nut that has been locktighted in place. (I think their names are Long-Fingers McGee and Iron-Hands Jones, and they used to be in the circus.)

AxonGap
05-11-2006, 4:08 PM
If it were a thumb socket and not a thumb hole would work. Just something to grip on to, I am sure if things stay the same these will start coming out.

-ken
It's more or less a thumb socket. I'm trying to use the idea of a more traditional rifle stock whithout making it feel too awkward. Look's is another issue.

AxonGap
05-11-2006, 4:12 PM
Why take a chance for looks. YOUR hand doesn't need to be able to put the thumb in. The DOJ has an agent with REALLY long fingers they use for that kind of test. Just like their agent with REALLY strong hands who can twist off a nut that has been locktighted in place. (I think their names are Long-Fingers McGee and Iron-Hands Jones, and they used to be in the circus.)
That would be a feat. I think they use chimpanzees in there testing facility.

Fate
05-11-2006, 4:13 PM
With the thumb rest on the side, it will work. However you just need to delete the hole thru the middle. If it's one piece and not a bolt on addition to a regular stock, you might have something.

AxonGap
05-11-2006, 4:21 PM
With the thumb rest on the side, it will work. However you just need to delete the hole thru the middle. If it's one piece and not a bolt on addition to a regular stock, you might have something.
This would be one piece.

AxonGap
05-11-2006, 4:33 PM
Removed the hole. Still tapers for a thumb indent.

joebob
05-11-2006, 4:58 PM
While you're at it, can you make the buttplate and cheekplate adjustable?

grammaton76
05-11-2006, 5:10 PM
While you're at it, can you make the buttplate and cheekplate adjustable?

Folks have been a bit scared about adjustable buttplates on AR's, as the DOJ might be able to call that a telescoping stock.

The cheekpad, I wouldn't worry about, and something which can accept differently-sized rubber endpads, I wouldn't be worried about. But there may be a point re: the telescoping / adjustable buttplate.

AxonGap
05-11-2006, 5:11 PM
While you're at it, can you make the buttplate and cheekplate adjustable?
No problem. I'll just slap em around a few times!

AxonGap
05-11-2006, 5:19 PM
Folks have been a bit scared about adjustable buttplates on AR's, as the DOJ might be able to call that a telescoping stock.

The cheekpad, I wouldn't worry about, and something which can accept differently-sized rubber endpads, I wouldn't be worried about. But there may be a point re: the telescoping / adjustable buttplate.
This would be based on a standard AR buttstock. The main crux of this is the angle of the wrist in conjunction w/ the trigger! It's all about ergonomics, and I think it could be done on these wayward lowers. We should concentrate on a supplement to the pistol grip issue in order to make a safer firearm. Removable is the way it was meant to be!!

AxonGap
05-11-2006, 5:23 PM
Removable magazine that is! (10rd of course)

SC_00_05
05-11-2006, 7:32 PM
This is the best version of a replacement I've seen so far.

Ten Rounder
05-11-2006, 8:28 PM
Your ergos should be at a minum of this one.
http://www.jallenenterprises.com/html/californiacompliant.html

Notice that the base of the stock is half in the triger well. Ours is at the bottom. If you try and get too fancy with your design you will be in nagitive teratory. It is what it is, are you gonna build that or just throwing ideas out of your hat? Right or wrong the solution has to fit the rules(laws as they are written). Remember there are 30,000+ costomers waiting to be satisfied and we will all be in compliance with open mags.:D

Jicko
05-11-2006, 9:25 PM
Instead of making a 1 piece grip/stock.... why don't you try to just make the "grip" and match it to a standard A2 fixed stock.... that save you a LOT of materials for the stock part....

1911_Mitch
05-11-2006, 9:32 PM
Sorry, I don't think it will fly.

Appears to allow a pistol style grasp.
Allows the web of the hand to be below the exposed portion of the trigger.

Next.

Ten Rounder
05-11-2006, 9:35 PM
Sorry, I don't think it will fly.

Appears to allow a pistol style grasp.
Allows the web of the hand to be below the exposed portion of the trigger.

Next.

Correct, I didn't have the heart to say it first.

adamsreeftank
05-12-2006, 12:32 AM
There is a bigger problem.

I think the DOJ would consider this a thumbhole stock even without the hole.

Read the letter on this page carefully:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=33749&page=2

"11 CCR 978.20 (C) defines a thumbhole stock as, "... a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing."

and "... features fixed or attached to the action of the weapon are differentiated from those attached to the stock..."

So your stock has the feature of allowing the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into the stock (even if it is just a thumb REST) and is definitely in risky terrirtory.

Also, it looks like a pistol grip to me....

But I think it looks cool and I would buy a few if it was given the green light by the DOJ.

AxonGap
05-12-2006, 7:09 AM
There is a bigger problem.

I think the DOJ would consider this a thumbhole stock even without the hole.

Read the letter on this page carefully:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=33749&page=2

"11 CCR 978.20 (C) defines a thumbhole stock as, "... a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing."

and "... features fixed or attached to the action of the weapon are differentiated from those attached to the stock..."

So your stock has the feature of allowing the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into the stock (even if it is just a thumb REST) and is definitely in risky terrirtory.

Also, it looks like a pistol grip to me....

But I think it looks cool and I would buy a few if it was given the green light by the DOJ.
I appreciate all the input guys. I don't know if I'm conveying my concept right but your clarification of 11 CCR 978.20 (C) definitely helps in honing out a solution that is not only legal but highly functional and less unsightly (stress unsightly). Alas, an AR (M-16 design) is what it is and Stoner created it that way for ergonomic control of the firearm. The buffer tube and it's proximity to the trigger well (i.e. space/distance) create a huge gap, more space to work with.

If we all put our heads together and brainstorm the pistol grip issue it would be possible to be in compliance w/o slaughtering our mag's or more importantly our OLL's. I'll keep posting updates to the design.

AxonGap
05-12-2006, 7:37 AM
Correct, I didn't have the heart to say it first.
Critique away! Thanks for the input.

AxonGap
05-12-2006, 10:44 AM
Here's another version. V3a would be a part of the stock.

This OLL issue is kinda like handling a hot potato...
...just making sure you all don't get burned!

Jicko
05-12-2006, 10:46 AM
I like it! When can i order one? Oh.... can it be made work with ... ACE FX stock? :D

paradox
05-12-2006, 11:11 AM
Here is the stock I was thinking about making. Photoshopped from http://www.nill-grips.com/ using their AR thumbhole stock as a base

.

AxonGap
05-12-2006, 12:41 PM
Here is the stock I was thinking about making. Photoshopped from http://www.nill-grips.com/ using their AR thumbhole stock as a base

.
That's what I'm talking about! Think of a traditional rifle stock, like an M1A for example. Instead of a grasp using the web of the hand imagine a thumb rest instead. People are hung up on the idea of holding the rifle pistol grip style. Yes, the AR-15/M-16 was designed specifically for the purpose of ergonomic control. I believe there is another thread going on w/ a similar design that relies on a pistol grip style. I'm trying to steer away from that concept. The key is to retain the wrists angle much like that of a traditional rifle without it being so “AR’ish”.

If (or worse, when) the DOJ makes us weld up our OLL’s, wouldn’t we be in fact defeating the mechanical intention of the device (AR lower), a firearm that has been proven time and time again. To change that design by bonding the mag to the receiver would in essence be creating a potentially unsafe device, mandated by the DOJ nonetheless?? We have purchased these legally, could we be building safety hazards per the “strict request” of the CA DOJ?

Trying to rationalize all this is stupid (I know), but every time I crack open my FAB-10 to reload just makes me ponder the stupidity even more. I’d rather come up w/ a legal work-around to the “evil” features and have the rifle work the way it was mechanically intended. If all else fails at least have a safe way to “slowly remove the magazine with the use of a complex tool”, fix the problem safely, then “quickly affix it back”.

paradox
05-12-2006, 12:48 PM
That's what I'm talking about! Think of a traditional rifle stock, like an M1A for example. Instead of a grasp using the web of the hand imagine a thumb rest instead.

Don't do a shelf an indent or any other topographical feature that looks like it was made for the thumb extending back to the carpel bones. That could be construed to be a thumbhole stock. You could sculpt an indent, but only if the grip was separated from the stock by air.

The wood stock in that picture would be egronomic, but very hard to “shoot from the hip spraying bullets” thus OK in the DOJ’s eyes. :D

Jicko
05-12-2006, 2:00 PM
Just a note, all the above would need a "ambi" safety selector... I guess....

AxonGap
05-12-2006, 2:16 PM
Don't do a shelf an indent or any other topographical feature that looks like it was made for the thumb extending back to the carpel bones. That could be construed to be a thumbhole stock. You could sculpt an indent, but only if the grip was separated from the stock by air.

The wood stock in that picture would be egronomic, but very hard to “shoot from the hip spraying bullets” thus OK in the DOJ’s eyes. :D
The thumb would be pointing straight forward, kind of like talking in to a CB. The palm, mid, to pinky fingers would be the main support. It would be extremely difficult to "spray bullets" with. Of course the DOJ would strike it down just to spite the loophole. The big question, how can we mimic the legal configuration onto the AR w/o altering the frame?

I appreciate all of the surrogate DOJ critiques because it's getting us closer to a workable solution.

paradox
05-12-2006, 2:43 PM
Another idea along the same lines. This time it is built off a magpul MAID grip. In order to make one you'd need at least a mill, which I don't have.

I call the first stock "devolution" because you'd have to grip it like an ape grips a branch.

This one is called a Sharkfin MAID.

AxonGap
05-12-2006, 2:50 PM
Another idea along the same lines. This time it is built off a magpul MAID grip. In order to make one you'd need at least a mill, which I don't have.

I call the first stock "devolution" because you'd have to grip it like an ape grips a branch.

This one is called a Sharkfin MAID.
According to the anti-gun lobby we are all apes, so that would be quite appropriate! :)

Would cupping the hand w/o the use of a thumb be considered a "grasp"?

paradox
05-12-2006, 3:10 PM
According to the anti-gun lobby we are all apes, so that would be quite appropriate! :)

Would cupping the hand w/o the use of a thumb be considered a "grasp"?


It would be a grasp, but not a pistol grasp; that requires the thumb to go around whatever is being grasped. Try shooting any pistol (without a buttstock) using a grasp like this and you'll wind up with a bloody face like fabio.

AxonGap
05-12-2006, 3:29 PM
It would be a grasp, but not a pistol grasp; that requires the thumb to go around whatever is being grasped. Try shooting any pistol (without a buttstock) using a grasp like this and you'll wind up with a bloody face like fabio.
So ergonomically it can be done without giving your lower a “bloody face”.

My next step is to sculpt a life-size model of it. I'll post pictures when I'm done. Thanks for the input paradox!

arguy15
05-12-2006, 3:39 PM
This is the stock from Brownells. I modified it in paint to be less pictol grippy. As for the thumb, I am think of ataching a ring to the dedent pin which the thumb could slide into. I am pretty sure you would have to replace the pin with a bolt so it would not rotate as much. It would still be the "ape grasp" but at least you would have a little more control and no long lasting damage to the receiver. :confused:

AxonGap
05-12-2006, 3:53 PM
This is the stock from Brownells. I modified it in paint to be less pictol grippy. As for the thumb, I am think of ataching a ring to the dedent pin which the thumb could slide into. I am pretty sure you would have to replace the pin with a bolt so it would not rotate as much. It would still be the "ape grasp" but at least you would have a little more control and no long lasting damage to the receiver. :confused:
Now we are starting to get creative!

Do we have any machinists or die makers out there? I say we bombard the DOJ w/ as many doable prototypes as possible. Se what sticks to the walls of justice.

adamsreeftank
05-12-2006, 4:43 PM
Another idea along the same lines. This time it is built off a magpul MAID grip. In order to make one you'd need at least a mill, which I don't have.

I call the first stock "devolution" because you'd have to grip it like an ape grips a branch.

This one is called a Sharkfin MAID.

The interesting thing about this idea is that all you would need to do is replace the rear insert of the miad grip. If it worked out, I bet magpul would be willing to make a CA-compliant rear grip panel. If you went to a free state, you could just swap the panel with the standard one.