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View Full Version : A caliber question of different sort...


sigfan91
08-31-2010, 11:24 AM
Yes, we have heard the debate of 9mm vs 40 S&W vs 45 ACP vs phased plasma rifle in the 40W range vs 10mm caseless armor piercing incendiary rounds coming out of a pulse rifle. Well, this is not one of those.

Have you guys noticed that European police seem to do fine with 32 ACP and 380 ACP for the longest time? Walther PPK (and clones), Sig P230, Beretta 70/80 series, and dozens of other European guns are in these 2 calibers.

Are Americans just harder to bring down? Are we more massive? Big boned? Pleasantly plump? High on PCP? And we're not even talking about body armor.

Why is it that we feel anything less than a 45 ACP is wimpy while the stinking Euros can make do with 32 ACP?

Actually, back in the early 20th century, our police used 38 S&W with half the energy of the mighty 38 Special. All of a sudden the 38 Special is lower than those wimpy 9mm.

Why?

Black Majik
08-31-2010, 11:35 AM
Interesting observation.

Instead of looking at the handgun calibers capable of taking down someone, I'm finding people are choosing their calibers based on what their enemies may carry; meeting firepower with firepower.

We, as Americans have the bigger is better mentality. Look at our cars and trucks. It's significantly larger than those found in Europe as well.

As such, most of us carry (as well as our enemies) larger calibers. Would you feel adequately equipped with a .32ACP when your enemy is shooting back with a gun in .45 ACP or 10mm (regardless on whether they can shoot worth a damn).

Another thing is the size of the pistol. Subcompact pistols, as well as blowbacks are more difficult to shoot than fullsize and compact pistols. There are so many options available to us average joes that choosing a "mouse gun" just doesn't seem like a viable option.

Untamed1972
08-31-2010, 11:42 AM
That's prolly cuz the european citizens are generally unarmed. So that .32acp vs. the dork throwing rocks and bottles will be more than intimidating enough.

Go back and look at old news stories and stuff about why LEAs are carrying the weapons they do now. They often cite being "outgunned" by the BGs as the reason for need bigger more powerful weapons.

EU LEAs may have different mentalities on use of force than here in US as well...hence choosing weapons that are less likely to cause massive trauma.

Rogu3
08-31-2010, 11:43 AM
That's prolly cuz the european citizens are generally unarmed. So that .32acp vs. the dork throwing rocks and bottles will be more than intimidating enough.



Bingo.

Munk
08-31-2010, 11:47 AM
Are Americans just harder to bring down? YesAre we more massive? Because of this Big boned?And this Pleasantly plump? And this. And we're not even talking about body armor.I think we are... "body" armor.



It's already known that bigger people have more area that's shootable, this means you've got more of a chance of missing vitals, and sending that slug into a layer of goo from which it will never be seen again. Americans are also fatter than most of the world, and continuing to grow. Bigger targets need bigger holes in them, otherwise we could effectively hunt elephants with a bolt action .223.

djleisure
08-31-2010, 11:49 AM
I guess a .32 is better than the ol' "Stop! Or I'll say stop again!" ... but yeah, I agree with the general "meet force with equal or greater force" comments in regards to our bad guys being armed to the teeth, thus needing a larger, more potent caliber.

Untamed1972
08-31-2010, 11:50 AM
It's already known that bigger people have more area that's shootable, this means you've got more of a chance of missing vitals, and sending that slug into a layer of goo from which it will never be seen again. Americans are also fatter than most of the world, and continuing to grow. Bigger targets need bigger holes in them, otherwise we could effectively hunt elephants with a bolt action .223.


But aren't the folks most likely to get shot by the cops just a bunch of skinny-arsed, crack head tweekers? :eek:

chuckdc
08-31-2010, 12:36 PM
I was over in England a few years back as part of a class studying the English legal system. As part of that, we had a chance to talk with one of the instructors at the Met police academy. They are different in that their ARMED cops carry Glock 17s. and HK MP5s. Interesting, though, they do NOT have shotguns! It's mostly a different mentality over there as regards guns. Guess they think the mere presence of guns (at least on the Continent, not in the UK) is enough, rather than choosing more effective ones. I was definitely surprised with the no-shotgun thing, though. In the brief time I talked with the guy, I said I'd rather have the right shotgun than their MP5 for most uses. He was of the opinion that shotguns were "brutal". I pretty much countered with that they can be used with both lethal and less-lethal ammunition, plus gas rounds, making them more versatile, while hosing someone with the MP5 could be kinda brutal in its own way. Different ways of looking at the same problem, I guess.

elSquid
08-31-2010, 12:41 PM
Have you guys noticed that European police seem to do fine with 32 ACP and 380 ACP for the longest time?

I think we'd need a survey of countries to see if this assertion is correct.

For example, German police switched over to 9mm autos in the 70s: Walther P5, SIG P6, H&K P7. Well before widespread adoption of autos here.

-- Michael

ZombieTactics
08-31-2010, 12:43 PM
ummm ... been to Europe lately? Get back to me.

J.D.Allen
08-31-2010, 1:21 PM
ummm ... been to Europe lately? Get back to me.

Oh come on don't be cryptic...spill the beans and tell us what you know

Untamed1972
08-31-2010, 1:27 PM
ummm ... been to Europe lately? Get back to me.



Italy....2007.....I remember seeing lots of pretty mean looking Carbineari dudes on street corners with SMGs.

leelaw
08-31-2010, 1:33 PM
I dunno, you see a lot of EU LEOs carrying around FA SMGs these days.

JTROKS
08-31-2010, 2:05 PM
Go though customs in Germany and you'll see armed security toting MP5s at least that's what I saw with my total of 4, processing through there.

I wasn't born in the US of A, but my kids are and they will definitely be bigger than me. What I notice about our society is bigger is better, be it going for the plumpness or by muscle mass.

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/scooters-fat-people-2.jpg?w=499&h=383


http://www.joedeangelis.com/Picture.jpg