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View Full Version : BATFE rejects SIG pistols from competiton


Quiet
08-31-2010, 4:10 AM
BATFE is looking for a new service sidearm to replace their current issue .40S&W SIG P226/P229 pistols.
They sent out a RFP for a polymer framed full size and compact size .40S&W pistol.

SIG submitted the P250 and P250 Compact.
S&W submitted the M&P40 and M&P40C.
Glock submitted the 22 and 23.

After Phase 2 testing, the SIG pistols were dropped from the competition.
SIG appealed being dropped and BATFE rejected the appeal. (http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm)

SIG complained the testing was biased with BATFE testors favoring the S&W pistols.

BATFE gave the reasons for the rejection was due to the unreliability of the SIG P250 and P250 Compact.

Phase 2 testing was a live fire test involving 40 agents.
Agents fired 200 rounds per pistol.

Agents rated the reliability of...
... the SIG P250/P250 Compact = 25% excellent, 30% very good, 25% good, 15% fair, 5% unsatisfactory.
... the S&W M&P40/40C = 52.5% excellent, 30% very good, 5% good, 5% fair, 4.5% unsatisfactory.
... the Glock 22/23 = 47.5% excellent, 32.5% very good, 7.5% good, 10% fair, 2.5% unsatisfactory.

Agents rated overall assement of...
... the SIG P250/P250 Compact = 15% excellent, 42.5% very good, 20% good, 12.5% fair, 2.5% unsatisfactory, 7.5% no answer.
... the S&W M&P40/40C = 32.5% excellent, 35% very good, 15% good, 7.5% fair, 5% unsatisfactory, 5% no answer.
... the Glock 22/23 = 30% excellent, 27.5% very good, 22.5% good, 15% fair, 2.5% unsatisfactory, 2.5% no answer.

Evaluators recorded...
... the SIG P250/P250 Compact had a total of 58 malfunctions. 13 gun induced & 45 shooter induced.
... the S&W M&P40/M&P40C had a total of 16 malfunctions. 0 gun induced & 16 shooter induced.
... the Glock 22/23 had a total of 9 malfunctions. 0 gun induced & 9 shooter induced.

Quiet
08-31-2010, 4:13 AM
In addition, Federal Air Marshal's have stopped issueing the SIG P250 Compact (.357SIG) due to the reported reliability issues from the BATFE testing.

They appear to be in a wait and see mode, with Air Marshal's still using the SIG P229 (.357SIG) and SIG P250 Compact (.357SIG).

Federal Air Marshal's adopted the SIG P250 Compact (.357SIG) to replace their SIG P229 (.357SIG) pistols without a live fire test phase and were selected as a trade in upgrade.

zfields
08-31-2010, 4:15 AM
Glock, Malfunctions? Obvious the testers didnt know what they were doing :TFH:

nazgulnarsil
08-31-2010, 4:23 AM
the large number of shooter induced malfunctions doesn't surprise me at all. it seems a huge number of shooters cant help but ride the slide release with their thumb. I think it is one of the major reasons other manufacturers have gone with tiny slide releases.

Munk
08-31-2010, 11:52 AM
So they wanted a polymer framed .40? Why no FN's and why no beretta px4?

Seems to me like they had their minds made up on the way in. Even so... 200 rds? THAT's a stress test? IMO each agent should have sent 1000 rounds downrange with each gun that day... minimum.

THT
08-31-2010, 11:55 AM
This was the most surprising:

Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability

Corbin Dallas
08-31-2010, 11:55 AM
Evaluators recorded...
... the SIG P250/P250 Compact had a total of 58 malfunctions. 13 gun induced & 45 shooter induced.
... the S&W M&P40/M&P40C had a total of 16 malfunctions. 0 gun induced & 16 shooter induced.
... the Glock 22/23 had a total of 9 malfunctions. 0 gun induced & 9 shooter induced.

This is the ONLY thing that should matter!!!

S&W - 16 shooter induced malfunctions!!! HAHAHHAHAHHA


OMGWTFBBQ??? 58 malfunctions??? SIG FAIL

This is why I trust my life to a Glock. They just work.

Untamed1972
08-31-2010, 11:58 AM
Shouldn't the Fed.Gov be buying american anyway?

CALATRAVA
08-31-2010, 11:58 AM
very interesting, thanks for posting this!

Cyc Wid It
08-31-2010, 12:01 PM
Shouldn't the Fed.Gov be buying american anyway?

They should be buying whatever's the best suited for the job. In many case, this doesn't happen.

Black Majik
08-31-2010, 12:02 PM
Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability

SIG Sauer 1998 slogan: "To hell and back reliability."

SIG Sauer 2010 slogan: "The hell with reliability!"

CALATRAVA
08-31-2010, 12:05 PM
SIG Sauer 1998 slogan: "To hell and back reliability."

SIG Sauer 2010 slogan: "The hell with reliability!"

[Golf clap] Well played, sir! :D

sigfan91
08-31-2010, 12:09 PM
So far the P250 looks to be a giant failure.

Interesting Sig didn't send the Sig Pro to compete.

SIG Sauer 1998 slogan: "To hell and back reliability."

SIG Sauer 2010 slogan: "The hell with reliability!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...I'm so glad all but one of my Sigs are from 1998 or before.

ZX-10R
08-31-2010, 12:16 PM
S&W FTW.

nick
08-31-2010, 12:17 PM
Glock, Malfunctions? Obvious the testers didnt know what they were doing :TFH:

Looks like the evaluators agree with you :p

... the Glock 22/23 had a total of 9 malfunctions. 0 gun induced & 9 shooter induced.

jermzzzzzzz
08-31-2010, 12:18 PM
Noooooooooooo SIG wwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!?

CALATRAVA
08-31-2010, 12:23 PM
Noooooooooooo SIG wwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!?

completely off topic, but what do you carry over there in S. Korea?

M-9 like everyone else, or are you allowed some lattitude?

peace.

-Brian

puropuro
08-31-2010, 12:24 PM
What is a shooter induced malfunction, and how can they tell it wasn't due to the gun?
(glad to see my M&P is in the running :)

shellyzsweet
08-31-2010, 12:25 PM
Noooooooooooo SIG wwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!?

I'm with you...I love SIG...but this model didn't stand up to the challenge and was dropped cause of it. Thats life. In reality SIG should overhaul these models and make them better for the next government contract they plan to bid on, that way they can kick the stuffing outta S&W and Glock, ....but today its a lose for SIG, glock and S&W simply beat them.

Also another reason I have multiple brands of weapons....variety is the spice of life!

G-forceJunkie
08-31-2010, 12:27 PM
I'm going to guess hitting the slide stop and holding the slide back half way through a mag.What is a shooter induced malfunction, and how can they tell it wasn't due to the gun?
(glad to see my M&P is in the running :)

eric2063
08-31-2010, 12:31 PM
Reliability of an S&W auto loader higher than a Glock? And fewer documented total malfunctions, none being because of the weapon? It looks like the BATFE is using the exact same evaluation process that CHP did.

What you were all thinking it, I just said it.

And yes the P250 is a failure; and itís approaching epic failure status. Too bad Sig has chucked their reputation for profits.

jermzzzzzzz
08-31-2010, 12:37 PM
No ones perfect, not even Sig......shucks.

Dr Rockso
08-31-2010, 12:39 PM
Reliability of an S&W auto loader higher than a Glock? And fewer documented total malfunctions, none being because of the weapon? It looks like the BATFE is using the exact same evaluation process that CHP did.

What you were all thinking it, I just said it.


I think the M&Ps are a tad more reliable than the 4006s...

eric2063
08-31-2010, 12:56 PM
I think the M&Ps are a tad more reliable than the 4006s...


I hope so, maybe Sig can learn a thing or two from them.

jermzzzzzzz
08-31-2010, 12:58 PM
Polymer 228! ASAP!

xibunkrlilkidsx
08-31-2010, 1:09 PM
What is a shooter induced malfunction, and how can they tell it wasn't due to the gun?
(glad to see my M&P is in the running :)

limmp wirsting, not having hte magazine all the way tapped in.

JTROKS
08-31-2010, 1:11 PM
I was told by a Sig dealer about quality/QC issues with current Sig pistols and a rifle. I was thinking with thousands of specimens being bought and issued that there were bound to be a few lemons in the basket. Hmmmm... Not exactly what's expected with a brand name like Sig.

The Original Godfather
08-31-2010, 1:34 PM
I really would like to see how they defined shooter vs gun stoppage/malfunction.

Evaluators recorded...
... the SIG P250/P250 Compact had a total of 58 malfunctions. 13 gun induced & 45 shooter induced.
... the S&W M&P40/M&P40C had a total of 16 malfunctions. 0 gun induced & 16 shooter induced.
... the Glock 22/23 had a total of 9 malfunctions. 0 gun induced & 9 shooter induced.


Those are statistics for STOPPAGES, not malfunctions. The document clearly defines the difference between a stoppage (less than 30 seconds to fix without tools) vs a malfunction.

I wonder exactly what criteria was used to consider a stoppage to be gun caused. After reading the whole document and the part about the shooter who asked to have smaller sized grips, and once the smaller sized grips were installed there were no more stoppages. It could be because the shooter was limp wristing which would be a shooter stoppage, but then again, the BATFE could consider it a gun stoppage since the actual design of the gun caused the stoppage...

:confused: It could go either way...

Also, from the questionnaires for the SIGs, they were actually the most positive from the shooters feedback overall compared to the SW and Glock.

when Smith & Wesson's handguns encountered a stoppage during the live fire evaluation, the agency intervened to identify the cause of the stoppage and to correct it. In contrast, the protester complains the agency did not take similar steps when stoppages occurred during Sig Sauer's live-fire assessment.

Seems like they wanted SW...

jermzzzzzzz
08-31-2010, 2:00 PM
Once again favoritism rears its ugly head!

sigfan91
08-31-2010, 2:08 PM
Sig probably forgot to pay the appropriate "fees" to the "interested" individuals connected to the project.

jermzzzzzzz
08-31-2010, 2:08 PM
The whole thing was rigged!

Ultimate
08-31-2010, 2:13 PM
There is a simple reason the SIG was rejected.....

In designing the P250 Sig grabbed everything everyone liked about their guns and tossed it in the trash.

gorenut
08-31-2010, 2:40 PM
There is a simple reason the SIG was rejected.....

In designing the P250 Sig grabbed everything everyone liked about their guns and tossed it in the trash.

Hahah, many truths in this statement. The idea of the P250 is one where I can see it being successful in places that limit the purchases of handguns.. but otherwise I think most people would rather have 2 guns vs 1 that can be changed - not to mention when you get a dedicated sub-compact, its not the same as a sub-compact that had to make some compromises because it had to fit on to a skeleton that'll allow it to transform into a full-size. I'm sure it also doesn't help reliability that Sig forced the other calibers on to an original design that was meant to just take in 9mm.

spencerhut
08-31-2010, 3:39 PM
Also another reason I have multiple brands of weapons....variety is the spice of life!

But in the case of weapons with differing controls, variety can get you killed. And Sig's do have different controls

Was the safety on this gun down for bang or up for bang?

Beware of the man with one gun and all that . . .

The King
08-31-2010, 3:55 PM
Shouldn't the Fed.Gov be buying american anyway?

I have to plus one this comment.
If western europe gives USA production half a chance, it's news to me.

BATFE whould award Smith or Ruger the contract with the provision that all defects are replaced at the manufacturer's expense.

Let's complete or go broke.

sigfan91
08-31-2010, 3:58 PM
Shouldn't the Fed.Gov be buying american anyway?

Does that mean federal government should buy Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords? :D

Agent_S197
08-31-2010, 4:15 PM
I was told by a Sig dealer about quality/QC issues with current Sig pistols and a rifle. I was thinking with thousands of specimens being bought and issued that there were bound to be a few lemons in the basket. Hmmmm... Not exactly what's expected with a brand name like Sig.

I have a new Sig Sauer P226R .40S&W SSS (all stainless model) that was made just last month and it appears to be very well made. I have only put 100 rounds through it, but so far itís been a winner. Hopefully the QC rumors are just that, rumors. It seems that every manufacturer produces a dud model every now and then.

HCz
08-31-2010, 4:27 PM
SIG Sauer 1998 slogan: "To hell and back reliability."

SIG Sauer 2010 slogan: "The hell with reliability!"

Brought to you by Ron Cohen.

It is sad that Sig is now on the road to becoming a laughing stock. Every manufacturer has that phase(Colt, S&W had theirs) and Sig's started with cost cutting, short term profit maximizing thanks to Mr. Cohen.

P250 was a good idea, but the reality is a bit different. I think 9mm versions are so-so with not that many bad reviews, but as soon as it goes to .40SW or .357sig it seems to produce negative feedbacks. Maybe the design wasn't robust enough to handle both calibers in the amount expected by the agencies.

FAM is going back to their P229s, and this ATF/GAO surely is not helping them, and the argument about focussing 'too much on reliability' is not going to fly well. They seem to lose a lot of civilian sales within last few years, and now agencies are starting to lean more towards the alternatives. They should really look into how the loss of market is happening because it will be soon before their government contracts start drying up. If they are lucky it will still be the same (DHS, DoD, etc.) but loss of future contracts won't go well with future market share.

cineski
08-31-2010, 5:40 PM
Not surprising to me.

This was the most surprising:

viet4lifeOC
08-31-2010, 7:00 PM
Test results show more shooter induced malfunctions than gun induced malfunctions. I question the abilities of the shooter more than the gun itself. I'd trust my life to German engineering before I'd trust the competency of Federal/State employees.

Only started the hobby 5-6 months ago... had no idea about Sigs, but I already have three Sigs and am amazed at it's accuracy and reliability.

I agree buy American .... If you can't afford to buy German:).

CWM4A1
08-31-2010, 7:22 PM
SIG are pretty much manufacture here in US now. Many of the newer SIG consist of US made parts (slide/barrel/internal) than German made; some of the newer P226s are all US made (including the frame). It's kind of like buying a Toyota that's made in Kentucky plant. Engineered in Germany, made in US.

racky
08-31-2010, 7:37 PM
all the testers must have been southpaw shooters cus sigs aren't left-hander friendly.

gregshin
08-31-2010, 7:55 PM
I've owned all three models and I like the m&p the best. The ergos and the way it shot was what sold me. to each their own.

SnWnMe
08-31-2010, 8:43 PM
What do they need new guns for?

SnWnMe
08-31-2010, 8:45 PM
Test results show more shooter induced malfunctions than gun induced malfunctions. I question the abilities of the shooter more than the gun itself. I'd trust my life to German engineering before I'd trust the competency of Federal/State employees.

Only started the hobby 5-6 months ago... had no idea about Sigs, but I already have three Sigs and am amazed at it's accuracy and reliability.

I agree buy American .... If you can't afford to buy German:).

Yeah because you know, Volkswagen has been redefining reliability. LOL.

morfeeis
08-31-2010, 9:22 PM
Shouldn't the Fed.Gov be buying american anyway?
Thats what i was thinking, why isn't Ruger in there too?

LloydXmas250
08-31-2010, 9:43 PM
Test results show more shooter induced malfunctions than gun induced malfunctions. I question the abilities of the shooter more than the gun itself. I'd trust my life to German engineering before I'd trust the competency of Federal/State employees.

Regardless, the survey still shows more mechanical issues with the Sig. And even if all guns had zero mechanical malfunctions, they would still steer away from Sig. Sure it wasn't the gun that specifically malfunctioned but if it's not a great gun that user friendly it will cause human error. Clearly it caused more user error than the others. If the shooters were truly incompetent, there would be similar malfunctions in all systems. As others have suggested maybe these ones produced here aren't as reliable as the ones from Germany. There's a whole other thread right now on Sig problems from Turner's sale.

Psypher
08-31-2010, 9:54 PM
Does that mean federal government should buy Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords? :D

Well played sir, well played :D

RT13
08-31-2010, 11:09 PM
I love Sigs and generally prefer them over any handguns. But I think they are making a very good decision by choosinng the M&P line. I own lots of Sigs and one M&P in 45. I would choose an M&P over a Glock, Hk or any other polymer psitols. For the price comparison and weight of the pistol the M&P is a lcear winner. Plus, I don't know if I would trust my life with these newer Sigs anyway. I once bought only Sig handguns and ended up with a dozen of them. Then I noticed that any post 2004 built Sigs were crap. Now I only own a few Sigs and won't buy a new one for a very long time. he M&P line however has been one of my favorite handguns of all time especially once you add the Apex Tactical parts to it.

Blackhawk556
08-31-2010, 11:18 PM
Quote:
Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability

this is major fail. What the heck do they expect them to focus on the most?
In MY opinion, this should be at the top of the list and other things should follow.

zoglog
08-31-2010, 11:21 PM
this reminds me of the whole sig pro debacle from turners.... not a good way to ensure faith in your brand.

socal425
09-01-2010, 7:33 AM
this reminds me of the whole sig pro debacle from turners.... not a good way to ensure faith in your brand.

Now you can't find any product info on the SIG Pro/SP2002 within SIGs website.

jermzzzzzzz
09-01-2010, 7:58 AM
This isn't the SIG i grew up with :willy_nilly:

socal425
09-01-2010, 8:09 AM
This isn't the SIG i grew up with :willy_nilly:

Roger that! :(

cmaynes
09-01-2010, 8:20 AM
I have to plus one this comment.
If western europe gives USA production half a chance, it's news to me.

BATFE whould award Smith or Ruger the contract with the provision that all defects are replaced at the manufacturer's expense.

Let's complete or go broke.

If the defect results in the death or injury of an officer, maybe they can be held liable? That is a company putting its money where its mouth is-

If their guns are not on the top shelf for a duty arm, they shouldn't be considered.

BNuge
09-01-2010, 8:22 AM
They all need revolvers. That way they will have less screw ups and "shooter induced" malfunctions.

On another note. As far as the SIG family goes. Why would you want to replace the 226/229 with a P250? IMO that is a great line of guns.

cadjak
09-01-2010, 9:27 AM
The last true SIG pistol was the SIG 210. They partnered up with Sauer about 1975 in order to make an "affordable" pistol. I have nothing against the Sig Sauer guns but they are in a completely different class of gun than the earlier SIGs. The pre-Sauers were pieces of gunmakers art. All steel and carefully machined. Very Swiss. Trying to make the guns affordable meant using mass production techniques that, while efficient ,(very German) were not the carefully machined and assembled level of the P210. The current SIGs are decent and efficient tools, but they ain't pedestal worthy. That's my opinion only. Please limit outraged flame responses.
Thanks,

theneko
09-01-2010, 10:04 AM
I love my M&P - probably like it more than the P250c but the Sig has never malfed for me after 1K rounds. Seems very reliable so far...

Gryff
09-01-2010, 11:24 AM
I know an ATF agent who shoots competitively with an M&P. He's told me several times that he wished they would let him carry the M&P rather than the Sig.

Glock, Malfunctions? Obvious the testers didnt know what they were doing :TFH:

Most cops aren't gun people these days.

So they wanted a polymer framed .40? Why no FN's and why no beretta px4?

Sig, S&W and Glock are all kings of the LE market. I don't think any other companies spend near what those three do on LE marketing/sales efforts.

Shouldn't the Fed.Gov be buying american anyway?

Why? None of our military's small arms are made by US-owned companies anymore.

The whole thing was rigged!

:TFH:

Why would you want to replace the 226/229 with a P250? IMO that is a great line of guns.

Weight savings.

Blackhawk556
09-01-2010, 12:12 PM
for some reason i'm enjoying this thread

I don't hate Sig or anything, i've never even shot one before


i'm getting a vibe that sig is drowning with this thread

Packy14
09-01-2010, 12:21 PM
I own many sigs...but i tried the p250 once and thought it was one of the worst guns i've ever shot... hated the trigger, hated the grip, and it was crap as far as accuracy. Maybe I shouldn't sell the older p226R i'm selling now, since the new ones appear to be crap too.

gorenut
09-01-2010, 12:52 PM
for some reason i'm enjoying this thread

I don't hate Sig or anything, i've never even shot one before


i'm getting a vibe that sig is drowning with this thread

Its mostly the P250. Aside from a few individuals.. it almost seems unanimous that these are the worst Sigs yet.. but Sig still tries to promote the hell out of it. Its almost to the point where the recent bad batch of SP2022s from Turners is Sig's own doing to sabotage that line just to hype up the P250. Many on the Sigforum community have always questioned why Sig never promoted the SP2022 more, as well as make a sub-compact version of it.

All statements in jest ofcourse.

Black Majik
09-01-2010, 12:58 PM
Its mostly the P250. Aside from a few individuals.. it almost seems unanimous that these are the worst Sigs yet.. but Sig still tries to promote the hell out of it. Its almost to the point where the recent bad batch of SP2022s from Turners is Sig's own doing to sabotage that line just to hype up the P250. Many on the Sigforum community have always questioned why Sig never promoted the SP2022 more, as well as make a sub-compact version of it.


Actually, the worst SIG was the Mosquito. :)

By god what a piece of crap that was.

Cyc Wid It
09-01-2010, 1:03 PM
Sig + polymer = bad.

taguin
09-01-2010, 1:26 PM
Keep in mind SIG Arms had a good rep with US Gov't back in the day. SIG Sauer, I'm not so sure on their QC anymore.

Donk310
09-01-2010, 1:30 PM
What the hell is a BATFE?

Black Majik
09-01-2010, 1:32 PM
What the hell is a BATFE?

A fun weekend.

uhmeebuh
09-01-2010, 1:50 PM
I have a new Sig Sauer P226R .40S&W SSS (all stainless model) that was made just last month and it appears to be very well made. I have only put 100 rounds through it, but so far itís been a winner. Hopefully the QC rumors are just that, rumors. It seems that every manufacturer produces a dud model every now and then.

Generally, SIG has good QC and an quite good reputation...at least until the P250 came out. It's done a lot to hurt the brand and cause folks to make similar claims about all other SIGs.

But like the Sigma for S&W, a well designed gun can do wonders for your brand (even if it has a few initial teething problems).

[For the record, I also have a P226R SSS and a M&P 45]

gorenut
09-01-2010, 2:05 PM
Actually, the worst SIG was the Mosquito. :)

By god what a piece of crap that was.

From what I understand, most of this gun isn't manufactured by Sig, just distributed under their name.. which is almost as bad as it still hurts their name. Sig US is running the name to the ground.

Sig + polymer = bad.

Not really. The string of bad SigPros from Turners is a fluke run. If you ask anyone who doesn't live in CA about SigPros, they have nothing but praise about it. Personally, I've even sold my P226 because I was so pleased with its performance that I couldn't justify my P226 costing so much more than my SigPro. Bruce Gray himself has a SigPro for his daily carry.

Black Majik
09-01-2010, 3:23 PM
From what I understand, most of this gun isn't manufactured by Sig, just distributed under their name.. which is almost as bad as it still hurts their name. Sig US is running the name to the ground.



Yup, you're right and do make a good point. These guns both the Mosquito and P250 is hurting SIG's reputation. Other minor details such as missing finish on the inside of the slide from the clamp and plastic guide rods are dissappointing. I'm on the fence regarding the P238 since it's a ripoff of the Colt Mustang.

I remember the early SIGforum, pre-Cohen times. People seemed much happier about their SIGs then. Ah, the times when the P225 was a cult pistol and not some Turners weekend special.

The quote stating the ATF put too much emphasis on reliability was just disappointing. I loved SIG Sauer. Sigh...

gorenut
09-01-2010, 3:32 PM
The quote stating the ATF put too much emphasis on reliability was just disappointing. I loved SIG Sauer. Sigh...

Hahah, sounds like you've broken up with a woman you've been with for years.

Packy14
09-01-2010, 4:10 PM
cherish the memories, even tho she's a hoe now... it once was good.

Sam
09-01-2010, 5:54 PM
To much of an emphasis on reliability? A PR rep is in search of a job. That sort of thinking will get a lot of business down the road.

bohoki
09-01-2010, 6:33 PM
So far the P250 looks to be a giant failure.

Interesting Sig didn't send the Sig Pro to compete.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...I'm so glad all but one of my Sigs are from 1998 or before.

thats funny cause ive not had a problem with my 1988 226 and once i even loaded it with 380

mswanson223
09-01-2010, 8:16 PM
No H&K USP's

Notblake
09-01-2010, 8:30 PM
Shouldn't the Fed.Gov be buying american anyway?

Shouldn't american companies be engineering the best product anyway?


(there I fixed it for you)

shortround1
09-01-2010, 10:55 PM
I own many sigs...but i tried the p250 once and thought it was one of the worst guns i've ever shot... hated the trigger, hated the grip, and it was crap as far as accuracy. Maybe I shouldn't sell the older p226R i'm selling now, since the new ones appear to be crap too.


My brand new p226 has been flawless. Have you shot any new p226's?

Blackhawk556
09-02-2010, 2:02 AM
so is it safe to say Sigs are still good (p226) but their other guns suck???? like the p250/mosquito?

several people here are saying Sigs "were" good, implying that "all" their current lineup is not good anymore.

gorenut
09-02-2010, 9:14 AM
so is it safe to say Sigs are still good (p226) but their other guns suck???? like the p250/mosquito?

several people here are saying Sigs "were" good, implying that "all" their current lineup is not good anymore.

Well, I think most complaining are just nitpicking with fit and finish. Function-wise, most seem just as good. All the Sigs I've owned have been made sometime in the recent decade and none of em had any issues. However, I do notice the ones I've had that were closer to 2000 rather than now.. have little things that just make them feel like they cost more.. like a metal guide rod or a trigger that just overall feels "better"

I've never owned a P250 or Mosquito so I can't comment on them.. but I've heard more than normal amount of horror/disappointment stories to make me stay away from them.

paintballdad
09-02-2010, 9:40 AM
so is it safe to say Sigs are still good (p226) but their other guns suck???? like the p250/mosquito?

several people here are saying Sigs "were" good, implying that "all" their current lineup is not good anymore.

I have a current production (US made milled slide, German frame & external exctractor) P220R and it has been flawless since day one, 300 rounds and not a single malfunction. I was initially reluctant to purchase a current production Sig due to what i have heard/read on the web but my particular sample has been as reliable as my 3 early 90's W. German Sigs. I just bought another current production Sig, a P225-9-Polizei model (German made, stamped slide & internal extractor) and i'm confident that it will be just as reliable as my other Sigs.
I'll know for sure when it gets out of jail in 9 days.

1911su16b870
09-02-2010, 9:45 AM
I like the P250. No major US .gov or other major player using it will probably be the death of it. While in France, I saw alot of Sig's in the Gendarmes holsters.

badduggy
09-02-2010, 10:05 AM
my 228 from last years production run kicks ---. thx tmj trading!

stove pipe
09-04-2010, 2:50 PM
Still waiting for the official Press Releases and more details so info is a bit cryptic right now but it looks like both Glock and S&W just got awarded the ATF New Weapon System contracts.

Here's what ToddG (consultant for the ATF project) posted:
http://pistol-training.com/archives/3583

Glock award: DJA10D000010 (https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=bd51b091482215c94c1c9c89b799f26f)

S&W award: DJA10D000011 (https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=e121e835387839577bc2b57c2897e987&tab=core&tabmode=list&=)

cineski
09-04-2010, 5:34 PM
SIG Sauer 1998 slogan: "To hell and back reliability."

SIG Sauer 2010 slogan: "The hell with reliability!"

SIG Sauer 2011 slogan: "Don't emphasize reliability!"

I'm an ex-SIG fan. Owned 4 220's. The company has been for several years, and will continue to be a debacle until they fire Ron Cohen. He's the sole purpose this company has taken such a severe nose dive.

HCz
09-04-2010, 9:18 PM
Yup. Dislike for R. Cohen is alive and well thanks to his own idiocy.

I guess ATF also wanted some hand grenades but can't bend the rules for themselves, so they just got Glock in .40SW :p

trendar5
09-04-2010, 11:25 PM
Without Cohen, nobody could have obtained the Rainbow Titanium P238. And nobody should have.

The real problem I see with the P250 is twofold:

1. Was somebody out there clamoring for a hammer-fired, slow-shooting, long-trigger pull and long reset gun? I'm pretty sure the market was going the other direction (M&P, Glock, Sig SRT trigger etc.).


2. The big idea of the P250 turned out to be an absolute P.T. Barnum marketing lie, that you could buy different grip frames and slides for a reasonable price and swap the parts around to allow an assortment of guns with one serialized receiver. They never made those parts available in sufficient numbers to make it a reality. Then they changed the grip frame AND the mags!!!

sigfan91
09-05-2010, 12:14 AM
SIG Sauer 1998 slogan: "To hell and back reliability."

SIG Sauer 2010 slogan: "The hell with reliability!"

SIG Sauer 2011 slogan: "Don't emphasize reliability!"

I'm an ex-SIG fan. Owned 4 220's. The company has been for several years, and will continue to be a debacle until they fire Ron Cohen. He's the sole purpose this company has taken such a severe nose dive.

I am so glad that all but one of my Sigs are 1998 or before :D

Actually my 2008 P220 Combat is flawless.

cineski
09-05-2010, 7:45 AM
Of course not all guns are problematics. Probably a small fraction. But then you have to deal w/ their horrible CS if you do get a problem one. I'd love another SIG as a fondle gun and will only buy '98 and before. My main beef is putting problematic designs out that could be a problem (SIG 220 internal extractor for one example) and their horrible corporate attitude that I refuse to give any money to until they go back to their roots. BTW, does your Combat have a take down lever w/ a bulls eye pattern on the right side?

I am so glad that all but one of my Sigs are 1998 or before :D

Actually my 2008 P220 Combat is flawless.

Shenaniguns
09-05-2010, 9:09 AM
Glock, Malfunctions? Obvious the testers didnt know what they were doing :TFH:


Did you get distracted before you finished the whole sentence? It was Shooter induced.

virulosity
09-05-2010, 9:12 AM
This doesn't surprise me. The last 2 new sig handguns I have shot were the sp2022 (made in america) and the mosquito. Both did not work out of the box. And I used to be a sig fan...

Shenaniguns
09-05-2010, 9:16 AM
Still waiting for the official Press Releases and more details so info is a bit cryptic right now but it looks like both Glock and S&W just got awarded the ATF New Weapon System contracts.

Here's what ToddG (consultant for the ATF project) posted:
http://pistol-training.com/archives/3583

Glock award: DJA10D000010 (https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=bd51b091482215c94c1c9c89b799f26f)

S&W award: DJA10D000011 (https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=e121e835387839577bc2b57c2897e987&tab=core&tabmode=list&=)

Let me help the lazy people:

ATF New Weapon System (http://pistol-training.com/archives/3583)

4-Sep-10 – 12:34 by ToddG
Today, ATF announced the results of its highly competitive procurement for a new service sidearm. Both Glock (http://www.glock.com/) and Smith & Wesson (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CustomContentDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=750001&catalogId=750051&content=11001) were awarded 10-year contracts worth up to $40,000,000 each. These are the largest non-military small arms contracts in U.S. history.
As some of you know, for the past year and a half I have been consulting with the ATF on this project. It’s been an incredibly rewarding process that allowed me to work with some of the most professional, knowledgeable, and patriotic federal law enforcement officers in our country. You can read the RFP (Request for Proposal) which details both the specifications and testing protocols at FedBizOps (https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=8cd7b13dfefab943e194e68e4a6e23d2&tab=core&_cview=1).
The award announcements do not go into details about quantities, models, etc. so I cannot discuss that yet. But I’m sure all of that information will be released by the manufactures just as soon as their public relations people can draft a lofty sounding press release.
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG

Dhena81
09-05-2010, 12:36 PM
Why do they want a polymer frame anyways they should have checked out the HK also.

sigfan91
09-05-2010, 1:54 PM
Of course not all guns are problematics. Probably a small fraction. But then you have to deal w/ their horrible CS if you do get a problem one. I'd love another SIG as a fondle gun and will only buy '98 and before. My main beef is putting problematic designs out that could be a problem (SIG 220 internal extractor for one example) and their horrible corporate attitude that I refuse to give any money to until they go back to their roots. BTW, does your Combat have a take down lever w/ a bulls eye pattern on the right side?

No, my P220 Combat does not have a take down lever with bullseye pattern on the right side. I have never seen something like that. Is that new?

HCz
09-05-2010, 2:02 PM
The real problem I see with the P250 is twofold:

1. Was somebody out there clamoring for a hammer-fired, slow-shooting, long-trigger pull and long reset gun? I'm pretty sure the market was going the other direction (M&P, Glock, Sig SRT trigger etc.).


2. The big idea of the P250 turned out to be an absolute P.T. Barnum marketing lie, that you could buy different grip frames and slides for a reasonable price and swap the parts around to allow an assortment of guns with one serialized receiver. They never made those parts available in sufficient numbers to make it a reality. Then they changed the grip frame AND the mags!!!
This is what probably killed it for civilian side. When P250 came out, the idea was to have some organiatoin buy it and it would reduce their cost since all they have to do is work on changing polymer parts. With the gun having problem itself, I don't think that is going to over come question of reliability.

Blackhawk556
09-05-2010, 8:59 PM
not sure if posted already

good read

http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm

fullrearview
10-04-2010, 12:11 AM
So they wanted a polymer framed .40? Why no FN's and why no beretta px4?

Seems to me like they had their minds made up on the way in. Even so... 200 rds? THAT's a stress test? IMO each agent should have sent 1000 rounds downrange with each gun that day... minimum.

Makes me think of the dragon skin debockle

tbhracing
10-04-2010, 12:28 AM
Reliability of an S&W auto loader higher than a Glock? And fewer documented total malfunctions, none being because of the weapon? It looks like the BATFE is using the exact same evaluation process that CHP did.

Good call.

hunteran
10-04-2010, 12:47 AM
Makes me think of the dragon skin debockle

Dude, dragon skin SUCKS. The CEO is a moron (he's made an *** out of himself on several forums full of SMEs) and they make a product that doesn't perform as advertised. I've seen the powerpoint that had the results from the testing that the DOD did. Sure, it might stop bullets when its fresh from the factory but it doesn't take much to make the discs come loose and fall to the bottom of the vest. Good concept, very poor execution. And its expensive and even heaver that the stuff that our troops are using now.

Sig's QC has gone to hell in the recent years and there are far better options out there. The Glock (duh) and the M&P are outstanding choices (yeah, S&W REALLY turned their act around with the M&P, there lots of well respected real world users who think its on par with glock reliability and quality wise).

tbhracing
10-04-2010, 1:00 AM
Side notes-

I think the 2022 is a much more aggressive and tactical looking firearm over the P250. The 250 looks like an abortion that was quickly turned out to market. The only thing I dont like on the 2022 is the slide release- too big and clunky.

Bring back the 2022, just improve it a little-

http://osagecountyguns.s3.amazonaws.com/gb/sig-sp2022-02.jpg

l8apex
10-04-2010, 1:07 AM
The Sig P250 was a half arsed attempt by Sig to get something out in time. After getting a chance to fire one of those darn things, I don't know how anyone could choose to arm their LE/Military with them.

Sig really needs to back to the drawing board and make a polymer wonder. They've already done it in metal with the 226,229 and the P210.

nazgulnarsil
10-04-2010, 1:14 AM
sig needs to bring the god damn flat baseplates over. I'm using the M&P9c baseplates but I'd prefer factory parts.

Bizcuits
10-04-2010, 1:29 AM
Glock, always.

Shenaniguns
10-04-2010, 6:57 AM
Let me correct a few B.S. posts:

Each gun had 20,000 rounds fired thru it not 200, the 200 was part of Phase 2 out of 3 phases

Glock had less total malfunctions read it for yourself http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm

Comparing the CHP's 5906s with the M&P is silly

Other manufacturers chose not to take part for whatever reason (scared? lol)

jackliu239
10-04-2010, 12:29 PM
Damn, reading this article really messed up my plan, I was all ready to buy a sig, now I have to start the whole process with M&P again...