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View Full Version : A “what if” scenario if we change our grips. Will DOJ act with new regulations?


crzpete
05-10-2006, 8:20 PM
So what’s next? Let’s say hypothetical that DOJ manage to change the law and not update the offlist and we weld or glue out mags and remove our pistol grips, ok no more AW issues. THEN another 35k lowers are sold every month all over CA, DOJ will then take notice again.

What if the DOJ will try to enforced the new grip issue to completely wipe the AR/AK (let's say).

“That a semiautomatic centerfire rifles that are modified to be temporarily incapable of accepting a pistol grip but can be restored to accommodate a pistol grip, are assault weapons if they have any of the features listed in §12276.1(a)(1).”

We will have to shave our lowers so that they will not accept a grip at all?
I just would like to se some input on this and what you guys think about a scenario like this ever happening.

shopkeep
05-10-2006, 9:36 PM
Sales will EXPLODE if they act on this memo. This memo gives the green light to every FFL and Manufacturer out there to begin flooding the state with gripless rifles. Expect to see a new version of the old infamous "Tumor Stock". Yep, these new off-list rifles will only be an upper and pistol grip away from a full fledged AW. In fact, I'd even argue swapping uppers and screwing on a pistol grip is easier than fussing with tiny parts on a fixed mag kit.

After these rifles show up on the shelf of every gun shop in the state and flood gun shows, the public and media will tire of it and jump on this. A new and more ominous list/legislation will force registration at that point in time.

Bottom Line: AR-15s and AK-47 rifles are back, they're totally legal, and the DOJ is powerless to stop it.

drclark
05-10-2006, 10:15 PM
Such updated regulations based on the ability to accept "evil features" such as a pistol grip would trigger new registrations. That idea is what got the DOJ in trouble with the pistol-gripless M-96's a few years back.

My mini14 and su16ca both have the ablity to accept pistol grip and/or folding/collapsable stocks. Such a rule based on ability to accept a PG or other evil feature like a flash hider would have to trigger a registration since that would essentially turn every available semi-auto with detachable mag into an AW. That definitely would not fly and would draw NRA and other gun-rights groups into the legal fray.

The DOJ is focusing on ability to accept a detachable magazine as defined by current regulations. I still think that they lose w.r.t. pinned mags unless they change the definition of detachable magazine (which would also probably trigger a registration).

The DOJ is trying to say that any centerfire rifle with any of the listed evil features that has the ability to accept a "detachable magzine" or the potential to be easily converted/restored to accept a "detachable magazine" is illegal and has always been that way since the ban went into effect. I don't think that the current laws and regulations support this position. For the same reason that is is difficult to define what exactly a detachable magazine is, it is going to be very difficult to define to what extent a receiver must be modified before it is no longer considered capable of accepting (or potentially accepting) a detachable magazine. Epoxy can be removed, welds can be cut, etc.

They are trying to take this tactic in order to avoid opening a new registration. The problem is that this now covers all SKS's and pinned-mag FAL clones which have been legal for sale here for the last 6 years. There are also probably letters stating that the pinned mag FALs are OK so again I think they would lose in court and be force to open a reg-period.

Worst case is I will buy two lowers. I will use one to construct a "permanently" modified (per DOJ specifications) rifle for everyday use. The second receiver will be left stripped or assembled to the highest level possible without becomming an AW. If I take a trip to Nevada, I could complete the 2nd lower and swap the upper from my permanently modified lower once I am safely across the stateline. If done properly, that process couldn't take all of 5 min or so? Before I return, the 2nd rifle could easily be returned to a compliant semi-stripped configuration and the permanently-modified rifle could be re-assembled.

I also think that it would be perfectly legal to build a "fully featured" rifle using a rimfire upper as the ban only applies to centerfire rifles (and not rifles capable of accepting a centerfire action). I would then just keep my centerfire upper and mags stored safely in a dis-assembled state until that take that trip out of state.

So the way I see it, the DOJ has only given me the excuse to buy more lowers and/or some rimfire uppers. Great, who'd a thunk the DOJ would be encouraging us to buy more guns/gun-parts? The benefit of this memo is that the DOJ has now fully admitted that offlist lowers are legal for sale with no time-pressure to beat the list. Lower prices should soon fall in line with the rest of "free-America".

The longer lowers are for sale and the more that come into the state, can only be good for us in the long run.

drc

shopkeep
05-10-2006, 10:42 PM
The benefit of this memo is that the DOJ has now fully admitted that offlist lowers are legal for sale with no time-pressure to beat the list. Lower prices should soon fall in line with the rest of "free-America".

The longer lowers are for sale and the more that come into the state, can only be good for us in the long run.

drc

The real benefit is the acknowledgement that AR-15 and AK-47 rifles are legal in California as long as there's no pistol grip. Just think of all the wonderful new products we'll soon be seeing and all the rifles that will fill store shelfs and gun shows :)!

Manufacturers like LCW that enjoyed shipping direct and making a killing selling stripped lowers are going to be sending whole rifles into the state now that DOJ has given them the green light with this memo.

vonsmith
05-11-2006, 8:28 AM
The DOJ won't give up trying to make AR's, AK's, and their variants illegal. They won't/can't admit defeat. So what will happen is what is happening now. Enthusiasts like the people on this forum and manufacturers will keep modifying the supposed AW's to get around the CA DOJ. People will always outnumber the DOJ's lawyers and continue to be more innovative than any Gov agency. The downside for gun owners are higher gun prices, more aftermarket add-ons required, less certainty about what is legal, and more hoops to jump through.

What's interesting is the DOJ's efforts are driving people to buy more firearms. I didn't really want an AR. They're okay, I'm just not a fan. I missed the opportunity before the last ban so I decided to go for it this time. I bought two AR lowers. In fact, in light of the current anti-gun sentiment here in Kalifornia, I've also ordered a Yugo SKS and two M1A's. I should have the guns in about a week. I'm picking up my new gun safe on Saturday. Wow, I guess gun control really works.


=vonsmith=

hoffmang
05-11-2006, 10:47 AM
^^^^^ This gun shopping list brought to you by Cal DOJ!