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ajwells
05-10-2006, 3:52 PM
I found this bit on wikkipedia.com, I thought when going there that it would be a bunch of liberal media bull**** but it turns out they just use the facts and, as usual, when the facts are used it is in our favor.

By the way this is in regards to why Saturday Night Specials are illegal in Kali. Assuming the following is well researched and true then there is no reason why they should be banned.

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Safety and criminal use statistics

The term "Saturday night special" is often used disparagingly to emphasize the perceived lesser quality of the gun or, for political reasons relating to gun politics, to emphasize easy availability to those who are legally prevented from owning firearms, such as convicted criminals and minors. The term is thought to indicate that the only reason for the manufacture of such a gun is for use in crime; in fact, studies show that criminals prefer high-quality guns, in the largest caliber they can easily conceal. Research has shown that most criminals prefer guns that are easily concealable, large caliber, and well made (Guns Used in Crime: Firearms, Crime, and Criminal Justice--Selected Findings July 1995, NCJ-148201).[13], [14]

Most guns used in violent crimes are large caliber revolvers, although semiautomatics are becoming more common. The choice in guns, and the change from revolvers to semiautomatics, mirrors the choice in defensive weapons made by police and the legal civilian market. Many criminals, a majority in the case of juvenile criminals, obtained their guns through theft, or through a known fence selling stolen guns [15] This makes the issue of the original cost of the guns wholly (in the case of stolen guns) or largely (in the case of fenced guns) irrelevant.

Despite the inexpensive manufacture of "Saturday night specials", they are manufactured to certain quality standards to ensure they are not dangerous when used correctly (any firearm can be lethal if misused). Firearms sold in most countries are required to pass certain safety tests, particularly a proof test. A proof test consists of firing a special high pressure round, which far exceeds the SAAMI pressure maximum for the round (see internal ballistics). However, the United States Government does not require firearm manufacturers in the United States to proof test their barrels, although most do, simply to avoid product liability issues. If there is any weakness in the firearm, then the high pressure round should damage or destroy the firearm; if it passes the proof test, then it is considered "proof" that the firearm's design has safe operating margins.
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BPA
05-10-2006, 6:57 PM
Whats a good example of a model that would be concidered a saturday night special?

afartinthewind
05-10-2006, 7:02 PM
if well researched, no gun, including select fire "assault" weapon (what other kind of weapon is there), should be banned, but that was a great selling point to the mindless drones called voters.

afartinthewind
05-10-2006, 7:14 PM
Whats a good example of a model that would be concidered a saturday night special?

makarov
nothing else comes to mind. the best ones -- german and russian made are illegal in california.

here's what the morons have to say with it:

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/faqs/?page=sns

shecky
05-10-2006, 7:34 PM
Are "Saturday night specials" really illegal in CA? I hear from gun snobs/nuts of pistols such as Hi Points and Phoenix disparanginly referred to as "Saturday night specials". They sell about as cheap as they come and yet, they're still available in CA last time I checked. A truly dangerous gun probably wouldn't survive the CA test, and if it did, would probably be litigated into oblivion.

PanzerAce
05-10-2006, 7:34 PM
makarov
nothing else comes to mind. the best ones -- german and russian made are illegal in california.

here's what the morons have to say with it:

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/faqs/?page=sns


thats the first thing that I thought of as well. Also, isnt there some SoCal company making 80 dollar handguns?

Hehe, just reading the brady bunch page, and saw the 'inaccurate' comment. Maybe they would like to see the target today from the PPK I was shooting :D

ohsmily
05-10-2006, 8:04 PM
Many of the companies that used to make so-called "SNS" grade handguns are now gone and out of business. There used to be between 5 and 10 manufacturers of cheap handguns all based in the LA Area (there were others elsewhere as well, but the LA manufacturers were highly publicized). It was called "The Ring of Fire" by anti-gun groups and shooters alike (not b/c they were used there, but b/c they were made there). Bryco/Jennings and Lorcin are examples of a guns that may have been classified as Saturday Night Specials. The SNS's ranged in quality from decent/useable handguns to truly crappy items that were not reliable and might have serious problems if you fired +P ammunition in them.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=48324279
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=48617689
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=48577397

Bottom line, if people want to legally purchase them and get background checked to get 'em, they should be able to. Free market. Most gun owners wouldn't buy them because of reliability, accuracy, and quality issues. For those that did buy them for defense, that probably meant they couldn't afford anything else, and by not having them available, they were in effect being deprived of the ability to protect themselves with guns.

Even if they weren't banned by law, the companies that folded probably would have collapsed eventually anyway from A) (legitimate) product liability suits or B) the inability to stay competitive while at the same time making their guns safer to avoid product liability suits.

NOTE: Saturday Night Special is a "loaded" term used by anti-gun politicians and groups. It is like calling an AR-15 "a machine gun designed for the military to be used to be fired from the hip and sprayed to kill the most number of people". FURTHERMORE, the term was derived from a previous derogatory term "N-ggertown Saturday Night Special". Obviously, this racist connotation is now gone, but the politically charged, anti-gun meaning of "Saturday Night Special" remains.

islandchanel
05-10-2006, 9:42 PM
I consider the Hi-point 9mm I have a saturday night special.

ohsmily
05-10-2006, 10:56 PM
I consider the Hi-point 9mm I have a saturday night special.

Well, it passed the CA handgun test requirements. It is a gun of reasonable quality. It has proper machining where it is required but they just leave the outside dimensions (non-critical) as unfinished cast.

Anyway, it is as close to a SNS that is on the CA list as you will get.

50 Freak
05-11-2006, 1:29 AM
Originally Posted by BPA
Whats a good example of a model that would be concidered a saturday night special?

I remember when I worked at Turners back in the early 90's. We definitely had some "Saturday Night Specials". They were the Lorcins, Stallard Arms and something else I can't remember now.

The Lorcins (380) would run about $65 and the Stallards (9mm) was $99 bucks. Heck I even remember the Lorcins going on sale for $35 bucks every now and then. NOW that is a cheap gun.

I wouldn't consider the Makarovs SNSs. They are well made/machined guns. Nothing like the crap I described above.

jdberger
05-11-2006, 1:54 AM
How about the Arminus and RG revolvers? Some of the old German stuff that came over before GCA '68 was a little sketchy. But then again, I did drive a POS car for a long time, too.

Shouldn't poor people have the opportunity to own guns, too?

EBWhite
05-11-2006, 1:57 AM
I was able to shoot a Sundance (davis look-a-like) made in Valencia, CA :-)

It was called a boa in .25...Very accurate little gun. Pretty well made, chrome finish. Thefiring pin is the weak link and made of junk cast. It was replaced with a lorin firing pin after using for 80 grit to fit and finish it

it had a regular and grip safety, side mag release button- if they still sold it new, id buy one in a flash. I tried some at home drop tests with it loaded never had a accidental misfire with it..After looking at the mechanism- there was no way in hell you would ever accidently shoot yourself with it. Retailed at about 80 bucks :-(

afartinthewind
05-11-2006, 2:04 AM
I wouldn't consider the Makarovs SNSs. They are well made/machined guns. Nothing like the crap I described above.

i agree. i own one and it's a great little piece, but it's randered "unsafe" by california "law", and when the law was passed i remember some douche mentioning maks as sns, that's why it stuck.

the f-ed up part of this whole "safety" thing is that LE doesn't have to obey this particular law and can in fact buy whatever they want. just another CA law that makes a lot of sense.

06-06-06 might make it a lot worse too. oh well, i'm movin', don't care about CA anymore :)

DrjonesUSA
05-11-2006, 9:06 AM
The term "Saturday Night Special" is a racist term, as the FULL term is "Saturday Night N!ggertown Special".

It does in fact refer to inexpensive guns, which is often all that poor people can afford to defend themselves with.

The sole purpose of all gun control laws is to disarm law-abiding American citizens, and laws against inexpensive guns have the effect of disarming poor people.

It doesn't matter what weapon criminals use in commiting their dirty deeds; my rights are not dependent on the actions of criminals.

To respond to the initial poster, there is no reason at all why ANY gun should be banned for sale to civilians, regardless of what any article may say on the matter.


BTW, Wikipedia is a fabulous resource. I haven't looked into the way it works too much, but apparently anybody can log in and edit/post information on there, and each article has a link to a "discussion" section where people can debate the validity, accuracy, facts, etc. of a particular topic.

It even goes as far as to post disclaimers at the top of a page when the objectiveness of a topic is questioned!

Very cool..... :cool:

ohsmily
05-11-2006, 11:15 AM
The term "Saturday Night Special" is a racist term, as the FULL term is "Saturday Night N!ggertown Special".

It does in fact refer to inexpensive guns, which is often all that poor people can afford to defend themselves with.

The sole purpose of all gun control laws is to disarm law-abiding American citizens, and laws against inexpensive guns have the effect of disarming poor people.

It doesn't matter what weapon criminals use in commiting their dirty deeds; my rights are not dependent on the actions of criminals.

To respond to the initial poster, there is no reason at all why ANY gun should be banned for sale to civilians, regardless of what any article may say on the matter.


Can you say "ECHO"?

Originally posted by me yesterday
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Bottom line, if people want to legally purchase them and get background checked to get 'em, they should be able to. Free market. Most gun owners wouldn't buy them because of reliability, accuracy, and quality issues. For those that did buy them for defense, that probably meant they couldn't afford anything else, and by not having them available, they were in effect being deprived of the ability to protect themselves with guns.

Even if they weren't banned by law, the companies that folded probably would have collapsed eventually anyway from A) (legitimate) product liability suits or B) the inability to stay competitive while at the same time making their guns safer to avoid product liability suits.

NOTE: Saturday Night Special is a "loaded" term used by anti-gun politicians and groups. It is like calling an AR-15 "a machine gun designed for the military to be used to be fired from the hip and sprayed to kill the most number of people". FURTHERMORE, the term was derived from a previous derogatory term "N-ggertown Saturday Night Special". Obviously, this racist connotation is now gone, but the politically charged, anti-gun meaning of "Saturday Night Special" remains."
-------------------------------------------------------
Good job repeating what I posted.

Also, you never admitted to being completely wrong about armor piercing handgun ammunition.

DrjonesUSA
05-11-2006, 11:52 AM
Can you say "ECHO"?

Originally posted by me yesterday
Good job repeating what I posted.


I didn't see your post, smart-aleck. ;)


Also, you never admitted to being completely wrong about armor piercing handgun ammunition.


Not to drag the thread OT, but I'm not sure that I was proven wrong.

I just scanned the thread and from what I see, only four real-world examples were offered to refute me:

1) Someone posted a link to a story about 9mm AP ammo created by the Russians for use in submachine guns.

I'm pretty sure that if you fired that same ammo out of a much shorter-barrelled handguns (hence the debate about AP HANDGUN ammo) that it would likely not penetrate the armor.

I doubt that anyone has any access to old Russian AP subgun ammo, so its all just speculative, but I don't think that is resounding proof.


2) Next, you posted a few pictures of some mean-looking bullets, but a picture of mean looking bullets does not prove that they can actually penetrate body armor.


3) Finally, someone (perhaps you) mentioned various standards for body armor, but simply because a vest isn't rated to stop, say, a .44 does not mean that the round cleanly penetrates the armor; it just means that it won't offer enough protection from trauma from the bullet.

My understanding of that may be wrong, so please correct me if I am wrong.


4) You posted a link to an interview of the inventor of the "KTW" bullet, which was teflon-coated and many claimed it was a "cop-killer bullet".

In fact, your own link refutes you (and you contradict yourself) because the inventor of that bullet himself stated that the teflon coating does NOT, in fact, help the bullet penetrate body armor; in fact it degrades its armor-penetrating capability.


Just to be perfectly clear, my position is that there is no true handgun caliber ammunition that will reliably and under reproducible conditions penetrate body armor when fired out of a handgun.

If I'm so glaringly wrong, then it shouldn't be so hard to prove me wrong. ;)

EBWhite
05-11-2006, 11:53 AM
AHHHH- that is my Strom Thurmond co-sponsered the federal junk guns ban bill back in the 90's. He didnt want those poor blacks getting guns- Last night i read he sponsored it on brady site and i had to do a double take, now its clear!

paradox
05-11-2006, 12:30 PM
1) Someone posted a link to a story about 9mm AP ammo created by the Russians for use in submachine guns.

I'm pretty sure that if you fired that same ammo out of a much shorter-barrelled handguns (hence the debate about AP HANDGUN ammo) that it would likely not penetrate the armor.

I doubt that anyone has any access to old Russian AP subgun ammo, so its all just speculative, but I don't think that is resounding proof.




For the record and for the benefit of others who may have equally bad reading comprehension skills as DrJones, the Russian SP-10 ammo I linked to was designed to be used in either a pistol or submachinegun.

ammo page: http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm

9x19
pistol: http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg111-e.htm
submachinegun: http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg61-e.htm

9x21
pistol: http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg25-e.htm
submachinegun: http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg64-e.htm

anothergunnut
05-11-2006, 12:37 PM
I remember some time ago that our dear Senator Boxer was proposing a "Saturday Night Special" law. Based on what she was proposing, I purchased a Smith & Wesson 642(?) which as an alloy framed gun would have been banned under the proposal.

Further, the fact that a firearm has passed the state handgun tests hardly tells whether the firearm is safe or not. Those of you with any non-current firearm are in possession of a firearm that is not on the list. Anybody want to suggest a Smith & Wesson 686-1, -2, -3 etc is not a safe handgun? Smith and Wesson only has their current model listed since that is what they are producing for sale.

"Saturday Night Special" and "Safe Handguns" are just lies.

ohsmily
05-11-2006, 6:25 PM
4) You posted a link to an interview of the inventor of the "KTW" bullet, which was teflon-coated and many claimed it was a "cop-killer bullet".

In fact, your own link refutes you (and you contradict yourself) because the inventor of that bullet himself stated that the teflon coating does NOT, in fact, help the bullet penetrate body armor; in fact it degrades its armor-penetrating capability.


You didn't read the article well. The bullet is solid brass (and other harder than lead metals), THAT is why it penetrates armor. It is coated with Teflon to protect the barrel it is being fired from, NOT TO MAKE IT ARMOR PIERCING. The bullet is armor piercing because it is made of solid, harder metal (a bullet made of solid, hardened steel would have the same effect but be even harder on the barrel). Read the article again. The point is, it isn't the teflon coating that makes it AP, IT IS THE BULLET ITSELF. The article doesn't refute me in the least.

DrjonesUSA
05-12-2006, 8:16 AM
You didn't read the article well. The bullet is solid brass (and other harder than lead metals), THAT is why it penetrates armor. It is coated with Teflon to protect the barrel it is being fired from, NOT TO MAKE IT ARMOR PIERCING. The bullet is armor piercing because it is made of solid, harder metal (a bullet made of solid, hardened steel would have the same effect but be even harder on the barrel). Read the article again. The point is, it isn't the teflon coating that makes it AP, IT IS THE BULLET ITSELF. The article doesn't refute me in the least.


I didn't state that the teflon helps the bullet penetrate armor, somebody else in that thread did.

ohsmily
05-12-2006, 12:29 PM
I didn't state that the teflon helps the bullet penetrate armor, somebody else in that thread did.

How old are you?

I didn't say that you said the Teflon made it armor piercing, BUT you said that the article did say that and that it refuted me, IT DIDN'T (which is what I said in my last post. And so what if someone in the thread said that it did, I didn't nor did the article). You replied with "I didn't say that the Teflon made it AP".

It is difficult to go back and forth with you b/c of the non-sequiter, illogical responses like the one you posted above.

I'm done with you.

kenc9
05-12-2006, 12:57 PM
Some might call these Big Bore Derringers from Cobra at just 129.00 a SNS. On the Ca. approved list.

Big Bore Derringers
Calibers:
.22 Mag, .32 H&R Mag, .38 Special, 9mm
Dimensions:
2.75" barrel length
4.65" overall length
3.31" overall height
14 oz. empty weight
Grips:
Molded black synthetic, Laminated Oak or Laminated Rosewood
Finishes:
Bright Chrome, Black Powder Coat and Satin Nickel



http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/kenc9/derringer_bigbore.gif

Scotto
05-12-2006, 1:52 PM
I think that this study done by the department of justice stats would contradict those statements made in reference to larger caliber weapons

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf

when I think of saturday night special I think more of the .22's, .38's, & 32's and such... but the .357 is also pretty high on the list.