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View Full Version : Prince50 Mag Button response to CALDOJ MEMO


Prince50
05-10-2006, 10:39 AM
Okay guys, here it goes.

I do not think this memo means anything, but will give the following suggestions to those who are wary of building your lowers now.

For those who own or are planning on buying my mag button setup, you may do the following.

Install with just the long setscrew. This leaves about 1/8in. of the threaded hole visible from the outside of the rifle. Mix up 1 drop of JB Weld, and fill that hole closed. Make it all pretty while the stuff is soft, and put a dab of black paint on it after the epoxy is cured.

This installation is about as fixed as you can get. It would require a machine to mill the epoxy out, without damage to the lower, and the button is trashed in the process.

All this can be done with the Prince50 Kit. The same kit gunshops carry, as well as Hawk1's thread over in the WTS forum. It even works with all existing Prince50 Mag lock kits already out there.

I am also offering to have a "button mill out party" at my shop if we get registration. If the DOJ triggers registration now or in 3 years, we will setup several sucessive weekends to mill out buttons and replace them with those that came with your kits (NO CHARGE).

I am not saying this meets DOJ's definition of "Fixed", but will go a LONG way to defending yourself in court, as it is not "Easily reversable". Several weeks ago, Hunter's Creek submitted this setup with epoxy to DOJ for review. As of yet we have no answer, but we have not been told "No" either.

This mod will not work with the Sporting Conversions Kit, but would be applicable to Semi Auto Sam's stainless steel kit. The Sporting Conversion nut is above surface and could still be manipulated with tools even if epoxied in place. SemiAutoSam's button can be filled with epoxy, and would require a great deal of work to mill it out just like mine. Hell, I'll even mill his out later for free, should we get registration.

BTW in the event of the "mill out your button parties", I do work for food. LOL

Darin

tenpercentfirearms
05-10-2006, 11:16 AM
Deleted so as not to give anyone against us any ideas.

Prince50
05-10-2006, 11:37 AM
I agree with tenpercent that this memo changes nothing.

As to Sporting Conversions getting shut down with the use of Loctite or Epoxy, that makes perfect sense to me. Their design offers very little locking capability even with adhesives of varying strength. With the Sporting Conversions kit, even with epoxy, it would require only a good set of vice grips and it would come off. Vice Grips are a tool. (So is a Bridgeport milling machine, but I think we all get my point)

We did not get shut down by DOJ when we requested the approval, and our favorite tech inspector said to send in a sample for review, so apparently we have already gotten farther than Sporting Conversions did.

With the other 2 remaining units on the market, mine and SemiAutoSam's, the epoxy does in fact render the conversion "Fixed". To DOJ's level? Dunno. It would require more than a tool however, to remove it.

My offer is to help those folks who now want more permenance in thier build till things blow over. Some say "Keep the rifle stripped till we know", That could be years! I offer yet another level of security to "Allow Californians to comply with the newest proposed definition of a detachable magazine". And if the DOJ should give us what we truly want....registration, then I offer to remove the buttons for free. Even button conversions made by other manufacturers. This costs nothing, and I gain nothing.

For those who actually take their Off list rifles out to shoot, this is an option. The DOJ memo says it is now illegal to do this with a "restorable" firearm. It is not true,but if a drop of epoxy saves hours of LEO hassle, and weeks of fighting to get your rifle back....Use the drop of epoxy.

Darin

Joe
05-10-2006, 11:56 AM
Darin
Thanks for including my MAG-LOCKŪ in your post

I would also note to those that choose to spend the extra $$ on my kit.
We have ordered the Mag release catch, Stud and will have it if anyone cares to add this item to their order. And or when and if darins has his
"button mill out party" we will extend to him our cost on the mag release catch, studs.

why dont you send in your design for approval also?

shopkeep
05-10-2006, 12:52 PM
The DOJ memo says it is now illegal to do this with a "restorable" firearm. It is not true,but if a drop of epoxy saves hours of LEO hassle, and weeks of fighting to get your rifle back....Use the drop of epoxy.

Darin

Illegal in their opinion perhaps, but NOT illegal according to California state and case law :)

tenpercentfirearms
05-10-2006, 1:58 PM
Deleted for the good of are base.

Jicko
05-10-2006, 3:31 PM
+1 to 10%

I think 10% have the right perspective. DOJ need to come up with a definition... or else... no one knows what to do...

They would also need to come up with "what powers do they have and what procedures do they have to follow to invalidate the definition of detachable magazine set forth in SB23 978.20(a)"........ (just like they now understand that CAT4 won't stand... and they just can't arbitrarily invalidate one's AW registration once they allow another round of AW registration....)

Prince50
05-10-2006, 7:29 PM
Tenpercent.

If the DOJ says my product is not legal then they have to tell me why. If they do not change the definition and say my unit is not legal, then I will challenge their decision.

Not submitting, and letting joe public be the first to find out that DOJ is willing to fight tooth and nail is not good business. (Sounds like what the other company did though)

Marketing? I'm offering a free service for my units already sold as well as SemiAutoSam's. Pretty dumb marketing ploy on my part don't you think. Sales are nice, but my initial purpose here is to help my fellow shooters in this crazy state.

As to my kit being legal according to 978.20(a) today, who cares? The legal types on this board have already validated DOJ's authority to change the definition of "Detachable Magazine". If it is within their right to do so they will, then the fact that my mag kit is legal today does nothing for my customers tomorrow does it?

When the definition said "tool" I made it require a tool. Since a definition change has been PROPOSED, to be more permanent, I have submitted a SUGGESTION to help those who take their rifles out to shoot.

I have not missed the point. They are fighting us every step of the way. DOJ has never said my button is not legal (As they apparantly did to SC per your post). If they come back and say it is, I will demand clarification as to why. If they cannot give clarification, I will fight to get it. If they do give legal clairification, we (Cal shooters) will have an answer as to what their definition of permenant is. Am I willing to kill my sales to determine this???? Yes, but I don't have to. I can adapt to their definition.

I will not hide my product from DOJ, in hopes of gaining more sales, at the cost of my customers. PERIOD.

Darin

Joe
05-10-2006, 7:48 PM
Tenpercent.

If the DOJ says my product is not legal then they have to tell me why. If they do not change the definition and say my unit is not legal, then I will challenge their decision.

Not submitting, and letting joe public be the first to find out that DOJ is willing to fight tooth and nail is not good business. (Sounds like what the other company did though)

Marketing? I'm offering a free service for my units already sold as well as SemiAutoSam's. Pretty dumb marketing ploy on my part don't you think. Sales are nice, but my initial purpose here is to help my fellow shooters in this crazy state.

As to my kit being legal according to 978.20(a) today, who cares? The legal types on this board have already validated DOJ's authority to change the definition of "Detachable Magazine". If it is within their right to do so they will, then the fact that my mag kit is legal today does nothing for my customers tomorrow does it?

When the definition said "tool" I made it require a tool. Since a definition change has been PROPOSED, to be more permanent, I have submitted a SUGGESTION to help those who take there rifles out to shoot.

I have not missed the point. They are fighting us every step of the way. DOJ has never said my button is not legal (As they apparantly did to SC per your post). If they come back and say it is, I will demand clarification as to why. If they cannot give clarification, I will fight to get it. If they do give legal clairification, we (Cal shooters) will have an answer as to what their definition of permenant is. Am I willing to kill my sales to determine this???? Yes, but I don't have to. I can adapt to their definition.

I will not hide my product from DOJ, in hopes of gaining more sales, at the cost of my customers. PERIOD.

Darin

that is a very reassuring post :)

Prince50
05-10-2006, 7:53 PM
Joe,

BTW you are not the Joe I meant in "Joe Public"

LOL

Darin

Joe
05-10-2006, 8:04 PM
Joe,

BTW you are not the Joe I meant in "Joe Public"

LOL

Darin

haha :D :p

blackrifle
05-10-2006, 8:30 PM
An easy way to make the Sporting Conversion kit permanent is to get access to a MIG welder and just put a nice bead on the top of the mag catch. Essentially, you're "capping" the mag catch and you will not be able to back the Stainless Steel nut out. The only way to get it out would be to drill out the bead which may or may not mess up your mag catch (depends on how good you and your tools are).

Overall this ***** is ALL ridiculous. The DOJ is again trying to make up more stuff as they go along...I'm not doing anything different until I see an UNCHALLANGED LAW.

Prince50
05-10-2006, 8:36 PM
Blacklisted,

You ae correct, that would work.

Good thinking.

And yes you are again right, DOJ is trying things till they can make a decision.

My suggestions are for now just suggestions.

Darin

AW-FANATIC
05-10-2006, 9:14 PM
"Because these opinion letters are not a regulatory function (they are not giving you permission, or are ordering you to stop, or are fining you), but are just their opinions, they carry no legal weight, and there is probably no appeals process for them, and you probably have no standing in court to force them to be reasonable. All the letters are really doing is stating their opinion: "If you build them like this, you are likely to get charged by one of the 58 DAs", or "If you build them like that, that seems to be in compliance with state law, and none of the DAs will charge you, probably"; it is not the DoJ giving or denying you permission."

How did Bushmaster and Vulcan get the ok to sell their fixed mag rifles in cali? From my understanding they come with a letter of approval from the DOJ. I dont see why they couldnt do the same thing with a mag lock set up. They may not WANT to, but clearly they have made approvals along these lines in the past.

Prince50
05-10-2006, 9:19 PM
Try Model 1 Sales for PGs.

Otherwise, making them would be fine for your purpose right?

Just make a grip to bolt into place, A board should do it, as you are trying to create a condition right?

Email me for the number to Model 1 Sales if you want.

Really cheap PGs are not available. I looked when i was in the business of CAR stock adapters for Remington 870s Moss 500/590s and Ithaca Deerslayers.... (Before the market went to China).

Never did find them below $6 each.

Darin

DigglerD
05-10-2006, 9:31 PM
...who now want more permenance in thier build till things blow over.

That sentence is funny to me...

Just giving you a hard time :D

xenophobe
05-10-2006, 9:33 PM
But where can I get separate pistol grips cheaply and easily? I don't need good ones, just some throwaway ones for legal purposes.

The shop stocks pistol grips and mag lock kits. You can get the cheap A2 kind, though they're $15. Tango Down battle grips and Magpul MIAD grips are in stock there too.

blacklisted
05-10-2006, 9:41 PM
Great, thanks. Found all I need: $6 for the pistol grip (available in many tasteful colors, I would like mine mauve or taupe), and $0.50 each for the pistol grip screw and star washer (I bet those are just regular machine screws I can find in my drawer, but I'm not going to take any risk of damaging the receiver, those might become irreplaceable if the DoJ ever lists).

I don't need a mag catch, mag catch spring, or mag button, if I use one of the mag lock kits instead, right? And while we are in the department of really dumb questions, the various mag lock kits all work with any magazine, right? I was thinking of getting the Stag magazines, because they look more streamlined than the bigger mags. If you haven't figured it out yet, I'm a complete AR newbie as far as the hardware is concerned.

You'll need a mag catch, no spring or button though.

:D

I'll be needing two more sets, just in case.

James R.
05-10-2006, 9:49 PM
Why waste $6 on a pistol grip when for $15 you can get the really nice Hogue Monogrip at MidwayUSA. That way when you're done with them you can sell em off to your buddies or keep em for yourself.

Regards,

James R.

the_quark
05-10-2006, 9:52 PM
I'm wanting to take my lowers, and equip them with pistol grips, 10-round mags, and mag lock kits (which of the 3 models doesn't matter at all to me)...But where can I get separate pistol grips cheaply and easily? I don't need good ones, just some throwaway ones for legal purposes. And the most important question: my lowers have not been outfitted with LPKs yet, and won't be for many months to come. Can I attach magazine and pistol grip to a completely bare lower, without having to first install any component of the LPK? I don't want to buy a half dozen LPKs and install them all now, because I won't be building up my lowers for many months, and when I actually do, I will probably want to go for LPKs with really nice triggers.

So, I haven't actually built a lower yet. I have two, and I have two ten-round mags, and I have two mag-lock kits. The sporting conversion ones, I think. Sorry, SAS and Prince-50 - I may buy your products later, but they were available and I wanted them, and I bought them before I really started recognizing the people on the board, here.

But, I can tell you, with that kit, you can't just fix the mag without some of the lower parts kits in place, too.

Without having actually DONE it yet, it looks to me like you'll need at least the "Mag Catch", which is #13 (and $3) on this link:

http://www.model1sales.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=LRP099&storeid=1&image=lowerparts.gif&CFID=6576010&CFTOKEN=12712549

You may need other stuff, as well. Hopefully someone else will chime in, or I can tell you Monday after I get my parts in and build mine :)

Also note on that page is #24, "A2 Pistol Grip," which is $6. Quite a rip-off if all the stuff I keep reading about $.99 pistol grips elsewhere is valid ;)

tenpercentfirearms
05-10-2006, 11:18 PM
For a pistol grip and a fixed magazine you will need the following items.

Pistol grip
Pistol grip screw
magazine catch
magazine
fixed mag kit

The most cost effective mag kit out there is the Sporting Conversions kit that I sell for $14.95. Prince's kit is next in line at $17 or $18 and Sam's is way up there at $30 or $37 if you want to buy his modified catch which would be worth it in my opinion. I suppose if you were skilled enough you could also weld your own nut on there for about $3 too.

It looks like if you are just going to weld these babies up and not worry about ever using them again, you might want the cheapest kit possible. Or just don't do anything and leave it stripped. Personally, there is nothing wrong with my Sporting Conversions kit as just like the other ones out there, it satisfies 978.29(a). I think everyone should take a break before they go welding up their fixed mag kits and possibly wasting their money away.

Also, how in the hell is the DOJ even going to know what configuration your rifle was in when any new rules come out? Everyone take a break and relax!

blacklisted
05-10-2006, 11:21 PM
For a pistol grip and a fixed magazine you will need the following items.

Pistol grip
Pistol grip screw
magazine catch
magazine
fixed mag kit

The most cost effective mag kit out there is the Sporting Conversions kit that I sell for $14.95. Prince's kit is next in line at $17 or $18 and Sam's is way up there at $30 or $37 if you want to buy his modified catch which would be worth it in my opinion.

It looks like if you are just going to weld these babies up and not worry about ever using them again, you might want the cheapest kit possible.

Which is about 50 cents at a hardware store :D

You can make pistol grips out of wood or PVC pipe. :D

FinweElensar
05-10-2006, 11:26 PM
Midway has cheap pistol grips for 3.79
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=615714

tenpercentfirearms
05-10-2006, 11:33 PM
Which is about 50 cents at a hardware store.

You can make pistol grips out of wood or PVC pipe. So true. If you want to save money on something you are just going to destroy, that is the only way I would do it. I only have 20 of the fixed mag kits left right now so I am not that worried if I never sell them again. Personally I think everyone should just stop and take a week off and quit thinking about ruining nuts and bolts you just bought for more than they were worth. I don't mean that as a knock on any of the three guys who engineered and made those kits. I am talking as a consumer who values my money. I have bought fixed mag kits. I don't want to buy anymore and I sure as heck to hope to get rid of them some day.

blacklisted
05-10-2006, 11:43 PM
Midway has cheap pistol grips for 3.79
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=615714

There's only one left now (out of five). :D

hoffmang
05-10-2006, 11:59 PM
I love the havoc we're causing in sales of AR, AK, and now SKSs.

blacklisted
05-11-2006, 12:07 AM
An extremely rational and generally excellent post. :D

Oh no, no welding on my precious receiver, that would be insane. I'm configuring my lowers in exactly the opposite configuration: With a pistol grip and a magazine that's fixed by the current legal definition of 978.20a (namely with one of the kits). Here's why: By current law, this lower is not an AW, it is a fixed-mag rifle. All the nonsense in the new memo doesn't change that - the memo is just wishful thinking on the part of the DoJ. I don't worry about some DA prosecuting me for manufacturing an AW, because (a) by current law 12276 + 978.20a this is not an AW, and (b) lacking the LPK, stock and upper, no sane jury would consider this thing to even be a weapon (it can' even shoot, it is missing 90% of the stuff required to shoot), much less an assault weapon.

There is three things the DoJ can do next:

The worst one is do nothing ever again - then I can't build up a pistol-gripped detachable-mag rifle legally. Bummer. I'll eventually build my lowers into either fixed-mag rifles or rifles without pistol grips, that's pretty useful too. Note that at that point, my legal protection is getting to wear thin, because once it is shootable, it is getting awfully close to an AW for the comfort-factor with the jury.
Declare the lower to be an AW by name. Excellent, I register, and can do whatever I want.
Change the 978.20a definition to require welding instead of just tools. At that point, they have created an AW where there was none before, namely they turned my pistol-grip fixed-mag rifle into an AW. At that point, they have to allow me to register. If they refuse, or try some confiscation / buyout / modification scam, I have standing to force registration in court, because the AW laws are quite clear: if something becomes an AW by act of the DoJ, they have to register (and no, the SKS fiasco does not disagree with that, the SKSes were always AWs, but the DoJ gave the owners bad advice and was trying to be too lenient with the owners, so the owners missed the registration deadline).


So to summarize: The whole reason to put a pistol grip and a fixed mag on my lower is to be prepared in the eventuality that the DoJ goes the regulatory route of changing the fixed mag definition, to make sure I have standing to force registration of my AW at that point. The DoJ could very well say "If you don't have an SB23 AW at the time the new regulation becomes effective, you can't build one later". The important thing is to be ready at the transition time. Given the comment period rules, I have about 45 days to order the necessary parts and install them on all my lowers.

hoffmang
05-11-2006, 1:01 AM
I picked up an SKS too so that I can have standing to force the SKS registration period at the same time the AR period opens because the redefined detachable magazine.

SemiAutoSam
05-13-2006, 11:05 AM
IF you are planning on using the locktite and epoxy fix to make your off list lower as compliant as you can without welding and or epoxing the mag to the receiver.

Here is a thought and or suggestion when doing this with my kit
TO remove the MAG-LOCK ..position a 3/16 left hand twist drill bit in the hole where the allen wrench would normally go and reverse the drill counter clock wise the drill bit should either break the bond of the locktite or snap the mag release catch / stud and leave the MAG-LOCK insert in good shape. Adding a little oil into the small gap between the allen nut and the insert will insure that the there is no galling when the bit starts to turn.

I would apperciate feedback on this idea.

backstroke
05-31-2006, 10:07 PM
Prince50,

After comparing with those of sporting conversion and SAS, I am interested in your mag lock. How do I buy it?

Thanks,

Mike

James R.
06-01-2006, 12:51 AM
Prince50,

After comparing with those of sporting conversion and SAS, I am interested in your mag lock. How do I buy it?

Thanks,

Mike

There's some feller around here, Hawk something or other sold me 2. I bought another one when I ordered some crap from www.coldwarshooters.com they carry them for $20.50 each IIRC.

Regards,

James R.

PIRATE14
06-01-2006, 6:48 AM
There's some feller around here, Hawk something or other sold me 2. I bought another one when I ordered some crap from www.coldwarshooters.com they carry them for $20.50 each IIRC.

Regards,

James R.

CRAP.....all we have is a bunch of crap......but it's good BLACK crap.

Fixed is fixed in my book.........think about what 12 regular people would think of fixed.

So far every lower that DOJ has been approved isn't really permament but just fixed............

12voltguy
06-01-2006, 8:42 AM
CRAP.....all we have is a bunch of crap......but it's good BLACK crap.

Fixed is fixed in my book.........think about what 12 LIBERAL CA people would think of fixed.

So far every lower that DOJ has been approved isn't really permament but just fixed............

fixed it for ya..............:mad:

tenpercentfirearms
06-01-2006, 8:47 AM
CRAP.....all we have is a bunch of crap......but it's good BLACK crap.Yeah, don't buy his crap. I sell good quality AR parts, no crap here. :D

wutzu
06-01-2006, 7:50 PM
Yeah, don't buy his crap. I sell good quality AR parts, no crap here. :D

Tenpercent Firearms: Come for the kickass prices and great service, stay for the jokes.

Prince50
06-01-2006, 8:16 PM
Backstroke,

I sent you a message on Calguns service.

HAWK1 has a for sale thread over in the for sale section.

If you cannot get him, most stores affiliated with this web site carry my mag catch lock in their stores.

Finally contact me directly, and we'll get you in touch with someone.

dlprince1@aol.com

As always thanks for the support.

Darin

dawson8r
06-01-2006, 8:52 PM
Quick thought:

Use a material such as plastic, epoxy, lead, glue, resin, etc. that has a relative low melt point, say about 180 degrees

Prince50 kit: install only the long screw as suggested then fill the hole in with this material so the allen wrench will not fit.

Sporting Conversion kit: fill the allen bolt in with this material.

If/when the ruling is made and if/when registration is opened then:

1. remove upper, pg, buttstock, lpk
2. put receiver into oven/toaster oven at lowest temp
3. heat to about 180 so material used will melt and run out
4. smile after putting rifle back together

Am I correct in my assumption that the aluminum receiver will not be damaged by temperatures in the sub 200 degree range?

If my assumption is wrong then another thought is to use something that is water soluble like a plaster mixture of some sort. Just solid enough to not allow the tool to be used but could be removed with a solvent or heat.

Thoughts?

SemiAutoSam
06-02-2006, 6:09 AM
Quick thought:

Use a material such as plastic, epoxy, lead, glue, resin, etc. that has a relative low melt point, say about 180 degrees

Prince50 kit: install only the long screw as suggested then fill the hole in with this material so the allen wrench will not fit.

Sporting Conversion kit: fill the allen bolt in with this material.

If/when the ruling is made and if/when registration is opened then:

1. remove upper, pg, buttstock, lpk
2. put receiver into oven/toaster oven at lowest temp
3. heat to about 180 so material used will melt and run out
4. smile after putting rifle back together

Am I correct in my assumption that the aluminum receiver will not be damaged by temperatures in the sub 200 degree range?

If my assumption is wrong then another thought is to use something that is water soluble like a plaster mixture of some sort. Just solid enough to not allow the tool to be used but could be removed with a solvent or heat.

Thoughts?

Using lead to fill the threads ? lead melts at around 620 or so degrees

How ever babbit melts at around 450 degrees

and trying to get all of the metal out of such a small hole would be very hard.

check out my last post in this thread it describes locking my kit with locktite and epoxy.

and this way IMO is very easy to reverse.

PIRATE14
06-02-2006, 6:35 AM
Yeah, don't buy his crap. I sell good quality AR parts, no crap here. :D

You've got too much crap..........

Don't call ur OLY rewraps........quality AR parts...........

R U out of school yet????????

tenpercentfirearms
06-02-2006, 9:06 AM
Don't call ur OLY rewraps........quality AR parts...........LOL. You are a scurvy dog! Today is the last day of school! I called the maiden the other day, but shined me off. I will call you this weekend, we need to make some plans.

Gregas
06-02-2006, 11:23 AM
Quick thought:

Use a material such as plastic, epoxy, lead, glue, resin, etc. that has a relative low melt point, say about 180 degrees.


You can use any material, including welding the nut to the mag catch. Assuming that you used a nut that protrudes like the sporting conversion, can remove as follows. Take a thin metal plate and make a hole big enough for the nut. Tape the receiver to protect it. Place the hole in the plate over the nut. The plate protects the receiver. Grind or cut the nut w/ angle grinder or cutoff wheel. If you don't have one, you can get a servicable one for $10 at Harbor Freight. A new mag catch cost $3.50.