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View Full Version : What is not a pistol grip?


Ten Rounder
05-10-2006, 6:38 AM
If you had a thumbless holeless stock and had a grip just for you palm, at what angle could you make the cradle for your palm? I guess you could call it a palm grip stock. I have some time tonight and will try to make a male mold. I work in avaition fiberglass. I need some ideas.

Jicko
05-10-2006, 7:24 AM
This are the clear guidelines.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/pistolgrip.htm

sac7000
05-10-2006, 7:40 AM
I'm curious. Why is my self-loading mini-14 with detachable magazine not a horrible killing machine while my self-loading detachable magazine centerfire rifle with a pistol grip is? Why? What is the amazing power of a 99 cent piece of plastic that makes it such a terrible device? Mr Lockyear? Can you tell me? Please.....

GotAmmo?
05-10-2006, 7:45 AM
Good luck with that. It would be interesting to see something that we could use on the lowers that is not a pistol grip. I was thinking about contacting Magpul or Tango down to see if they might have any ideas on this, but I guess since most of the country is free, the demand isn't there. Please keep us updated.

Ten Rounder
05-10-2006, 8:37 AM
This are the clear guidelines.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/pistolgrip.htm


Thanks, that was what I was looking for. I believe I have them beat on this. All that has to happen is to have your web of your hand above the trigger opening.Very simple project for me. I'll have a proto tonight, any beta testers?

Jicko
05-10-2006, 8:43 AM
How about a horizontal piece that stick out?

|
|
|_
|

(top view)

Where your thumb will NOT be wrapping AROUND.... but upwards?

PanzerAce
05-10-2006, 8:46 AM
Good luck with that. It would be interesting to see something that we could use on the lowers that is not a pistol grip. I was thinking about contacting Magpul or Tango down to see if they might have any ideas on this, but I guess since most of the country is free, the demand isn't there. Please keep us updated.

Do a search on this forum for Spring Retaining Bracket or SRB.

Chaingun
05-10-2006, 8:49 AM
Time for plan B

Some type of DOJ approved Shoeless Ventures type grip or a new DOJ approved stock design.

vonsmith
05-10-2006, 8:52 AM
You should design a pistol grip replacement that keeps the web between the shooter's thumb and index finger above the highest point of the AR trigger. This meets the DOJ own ruling in regard to what a pistol grip is in SB23. For example the JAE-100 stock which is CA compliant according to the DOJ's definition. I believe J. Allen Enterprises is even manufacturing the stocks in CA.

Read how they did it at:
http://www.jallenenterprises.com/html/californiacompliant.html

“California Penal Code section 12276.1 provides, in pertinent part: “(a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, ‘assault weapon’ shall also mean any of the following: (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: (A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon…” In addition, Section 978.20, subdivision (d) of the California Code of Regulations provides, ‘’’pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon’ means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (beneath the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.”

If you create something functional then you couldn't start manufacturing them fast enough. You have 10,000+ customers waiting.


=vonsmith=

PanzerAce
05-10-2006, 8:53 AM
you guys are making this way to complicated. We ALREADY have a pistol grip replacement, designed by a member of this board (bu buy I think), ill even link you to the page: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/search.php?searchid=136515

PanzerAce
05-10-2006, 8:54 AM
You should design a pistol grip replacement that keeps the web between the shooter's thumb and index finger above the highest point of the AR trigger. This meets the DOJ own ruling in regard to what a pistol grip is in SB23. For example the JAE-100 stock which is CA compliant according to the DOJ's definition. I believe J. Allen Enterprises is even manufacturing the stocks in CA.

Read how they did it at:
http://www.jallenenterprises.com/html/californiacompliant.html



If you create something functional then you couldn't start manufacturing them fast enough. You have 10,000+ customers waiting.


=vonsmith=

von, go look at how an AR works, you will see that a setup like that WOULD NOT WORK.

Jicko
05-10-2006, 9:21 AM
you guys are making this way to complicated. We ALREADY have a pistol grip replacement, designed by a member of this board (bu buy I think), ill even link you to the page: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/search.php?searchid=136515

I think "Ten Rounder" may want to get in on some competitions.... and maybe improvements.... to the currently available SRB ($35) or the Brownells Grip Adapter ($25)..... I tried both already....

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=7378&title=AR-15%2fM16+RITE-PULL+GRIP+ADAPTER

If "Ten" can come up with some thing that is comparable, yet cheaper..... why not? I'll try it out!!

Meat
05-10-2006, 10:08 AM
I'll apologize in adavance if this has already been suggested, or if it's just a hair-brained idea to start with, but what about something like this...

http://users.invweb.net/~sheckel/15stock.jpg

Is this illegal for other reasons? Does it constitute a thumbhole stock? Does it just not work well for an AR style lower receiver? Would shooting with it be awkward?

I was thinking the stock could even be angled upwards a bit more to put the top of the upper, where the sights are, lower on the body. The buffer tube piece could be designed to allow a cheek rest of some kind.

Note: design is not to scale :)

Chaingun
05-10-2006, 10:22 AM
I'll apologize in adavance if this has already been suggested, or if it's just a hair-brained idea to start with, but what about something like this...

http://users.invweb.net/~sheckel/15stock.jpg

Is this illegal for other reasons? Does it constitute a thumbhole stock? Does it just not work well for an AR style lower receiver? Would shooting with it be awkward?

I was thinking the stock could even be angled upwards a bit more to put the top of the upper, where the sights are, lower on the body. The buffer tube piece could be designed to allow a cheek rest of some kind.

Note: design is not to scale :)


Well you win, it's both legal and fugly too boot!:D

SC_00_05
05-10-2006, 10:44 AM
I'm certainly no lawyer and am not trying to give out legal advice but according to this letter sent out by the DOJ, a pistol grip that is cut most of the way off is not considered a pistol grip. The "web of the hand" definition only applies if it it already has a "pistol style grasp" where all of the fingers can grasp the device. All of the fingers can obviously not grasp a PG that has been sawed off. Check out the second to last paragraph. I'm not sure why this letter is so widely ignored and thanks to 10th admendment for the picture.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/396557.jpg

vonsmith
05-10-2006, 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by vonsmith
You should design a pistol grip replacement that keeps the web between the shooter's thumb and index finger above the highest point of the AR trigger. This meets the DOJ own ruling in regard to what a pistol grip is in SB23. For example the JAE-100 stock which is CA compliant according to the DOJ's definition. I believe J. Allen Enterprises is even manufacturing the stocks in CA.

Read how they did it at:
http://www.jallenenterprises.com/htm...compliant.html

If you create something functional then you couldn't start manufacturing them fast enough. You have 10,000+ customers waiting.

=vonsmith=


von, go look at how an AR works, you will see that a setup like that WOULD NOT WORK.

PanzerAce,
I was mentioning the JAE-100 as an example. This is more like I was thinking. I wish life were as easy as Photoshop. :D

http://img144.imagevenue.com/loc25/th_91200_No_pistol_grip2.jpg (http://img144.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc25&image=91200_No_pistol_grip2.jpg)


=vonsmith=

blacklisted
05-10-2006, 12:21 PM
I think getting the FAB-10 grip approved would be a viable option.

xenophobe
05-10-2006, 12:24 PM
The FAB-10 grip allows for a hold where the web of the hand is way below the exposed trigger weld. I think it would be denied...

But this thumb hold would be okay:

http://img144.imagevenue.com/loc25/th_91200_No_pistol_grip2.jpg

Good job Von!

blacklisted
05-10-2006, 12:26 PM
The FAB-10 grip allows for a hold where the web of the hand is way below the exposed trigger weld. I think it would be denied...

But this thumb hold would be okay:

http://img144.imagevenue.com/loc25/th_91200_No_pistol_grip2.jpg

Good job Von!

I'd use that ;)

Ten Rounder
05-10-2006, 1:22 PM
The FAB-10 grip allows for a hold where the web of the hand is way below the exposed trigger weld. I think it would be denied...

But this thumb hold would be okay:

http://img144.imagevenue.com/loc25/th_91200_No_pistol_grip2.jpg

Good job Von!

This is still a pistol grip, I will be putting the thumb web above the trigger well, Stop guessing and wait and see what I get to cook in resin tonight, could have a pic by sun up.

EBWhite
05-10-2006, 1:31 PM
The Spring retaining bracket and the Brownells are good options but their flaw is they only allow the spring to be retained- They do not provide any grip to take place.

If you guys would get wait for my new prototype to get approved (hopefully a few weeks) I can get start to make some. I really like the design, I'm sure you guys will too.

The problem with the AR is a pistol grip is almost needed since the stock is so much higher than the trigger. Unlike on the AK, where the pistol grip is not needed.

Joe
05-10-2006, 1:47 PM
good work guys. lets see those prototypes

bu-bye
05-10-2006, 2:30 PM
I'm the guy who makes the SRB and the reason I did not make it bigger or more "ergonomic" is for legal reasons. The yellow line on the AR from the DOJ website says that anything below that line is bad. I designed the SRB not to be a grip replacment but a SPRING RETAINING BRACKET. The whole goal was not to find a better way to hold the gun but what is the smallest way to hold in the spring in place. I cut the thing short so your hand could not touch it. In my research that was the key. No grip = no legal issues. If you start adding materal to be more ergonomic with the way you hold it then you are in very gray waters and not a place I would want to be. There are two ways to hold the rifle without a grip. These rifles being 223/5.56, there is not much recoil at all so you don't have to worry about gripping the thing for dear life.

Here are some links to past posts about the SRB....

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=28718&highlight=srb
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=33677&highlight=srb

PIRATE14
05-10-2006, 2:50 PM
WHEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Major flash black to the year 2000.............let's see those new tumor designs.

SRB......I like that as well.

Got any left????? Send PM

Jicko
05-10-2006, 2:53 PM
I'm certainly no lawyer and am not trying to give out legal advice but according to this letter sent out by the DOJ, a pistol grip that is cut most of the way off is not considered a pistol grip. The "web of the hand" definition only applies if it it already has a "pistol style grasp" where all of the fingers can grasp the device. All of the fingers can obviously not grasp a PG that has been sawed off. Check out the second to last paragraph. I'm not sure why this letter is so widely ignored and thanks to 10th admendment for the picture.

Can you please post the COMPLETE letter? To show who was sending this letter out?

This can have dramatic effect... since... one can easily saw off the WHOLE pistol grip and just leaving the part that retain the "safety detent spring".... and then... called it NOT A PISTOL grip....

But then.... many has pointed out before that DOJ have categorize "saw off pistol grip" as PISTOL GRIP before....

vonsmith
05-10-2006, 3:00 PM
I think the SRB is a good idea. I may even buy a few later when I figure out what I want to do. In the meantime it's fun to brainstorm the PG issue and see where it goes.

Thanks for taking some action while most of us are just talking about it.


=vonsmith=

SC_00_05
05-10-2006, 4:32 PM
Can you please post the COMPLETE letter? To show who was sending this letter out?

This can have dramatic effect... since... one can easily saw off the WHOLE pistol grip and just leaving the part that retain the "safety detent spring".... and then... called it NOT A PISTOL grip....

But then.... many has pointed out before that DOJ have categorize "saw off pistol grip" as PISTOL GRIP before....

Sorry, it's not my picture or letter. I believe it was originally posted by 10thAdmendment. I also don't have the picture of the gun's grip but IIRC, it sort of looked like the old ZM weapons grip although I could be wrong. Hopefully someone can chime in with the remainder of the letter and a picture.

ketec_owner
05-10-2006, 5:48 PM
Robinson Arms did a couple of letters with the DOJ about a thumb grip. Is this a viable solution?

Mud
05-10-2006, 9:30 PM
I started this thread awhile ago, so thought you might like to see it again. Has some ideas and opinions that resulted from the "Grip Alternative" thread.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=30887&highlight=alternative