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View Full Version : Some reflections on the newest memo: SKS rifles are banned in any form


shopkeep
05-09-2006, 11:23 PM
Well I must give credit to TenPercent Firearms for this complete line of thought but I couldn't help but notice the new memo completely bans _ALL_ configurations for SKS rifles.

An SKS can no longer exist lawfully as a fixed magazine rifle because the magazine can easily be removed and the rifle converted to accept detachable SKS magazines with little or no time and tools. However, detachable magazine SKS rifles are _ALSO_ banned in the state of California so no matter what configuration your SKS is in, it is an Assault Weapon. This is also going to be true of California Legal FAL rifles as well.

I also find it interesting that the DOJ admits these are "AR-15 and AK-47 rifles" yet will not add them to the list. I thought it was the "Legislative Intent" of the original Assault Weapons ban back in 1989 to ban AR-15 and AK-47 rifles. I guess it's only important to ban the pistol grip. Interesting...

Anyone else want to weigh in?

x2delight
05-09-2006, 11:26 PM
Well I must give credit to TenPercent Firearms for this complete line of thought but I couldn't help but notice the new memo completely bans _ALL_ configurations for SKS rifles.

An SKS can no longer exist lawfully as a fixed magazine rifle because the magazine can easily be removed and the rifle converted to accept detachable SKS magazines with little or no time and tools. However, detachable magazine SKS rifles are _ALSO_ banned in the state of California so no matter what configuration your SKS is in, it is an Assault Weapon. This is also going to be true of California Legal FAL rifles as well.

I also find it interesting that the DOJ admits these are "AR-15 and AK-47 rifles" yet will not add them to the list. I thought it was the "Legislative Intent" of the original Assault Weapons ban back in 1989 to ban AR-15 and AK-47 rifles. I guess it's only important to ban the pistol grip. Interesting...

Anyone else want to weigh in?

Lol so Turners just sold me a Assualt Weapon a week ago? oh great

shopkeep
05-09-2006, 11:28 PM
Lol so Turners just sold me a Assualt Weapon a week ago? oh great

Nah, it's only an Assault Weapon if the DOJ follows through on this memo. I am also operating on the assumption that they cannot say "This memo applies to all rifles except the following: blah, blah, and blah".

chris
05-10-2006, 3:27 AM
rather interesting i have had an SKS since 1989. it was not on the AW list back then. so now they are saying they are AW's i wonder if they will let people register them after all these years. or do what they did before confiscate them. but the state has no idea who has what as for rifles anyway. do you have a copy of the memo?

the SKS does not use AK parts on it. also it does not have the AK action on it. since large cap mags are banned in CA. it would be illegal to do this modification to the weapon. I have not seen this memo on the DOJ website. if they say we have to register them i'm screwed because i'm in iraq and cannot follow the law. but when does this state care about verterans anyway.

the_quark
05-10-2006, 4:34 AM
I have not seen this memo on the DOJ website. if they say we have to register them i'm screwed because i'm in iraq and cannot follow the law. but when does this state care about verterans anyway.

Chris, I wouldn't worry about it. The memo they put out says only that "semiautomatic centerfire rifles that are modified to be temporarily incapable of accepting detachable magazines, but can be restored to accommodate detachable magazines, are assault weapons if they have any of the features listed in 12276.1(a)(1)."

People here have been conjecturing that this means that the DOJ is going to change the definition of "detachable magazine," and that they think that, if they do, they might accidentally drag SKSs in, too.

But, we have no language from them, no proposed rule change. IF anything happens, it'll be months or years before there's a registration period. And, personally speaking, I think that A) the DOJ does NOT want to trigger registration for every SKS out there and B) it's possible to craft the language such that SKSs wouldn't fall under it but ARs would. For a hint how they would, see that key phrase up there "rifles that are modified." You didn't modify your SKS to make it have a non-detachable magazine, it came from the factory, that way.

To sum up: They probably won't do anything, anyway. If they do, it probably won't affect SKSs, and in any event will take many months to sort out. Finally, in the unlikely event your SKS does open a registration period, you have 90 days and only have to fill out some paperwork. If you can get a friend or family member to give you the serial number off your rifle, I'm sure you can fill out the form, there, and mail it here.

Thanks for your work over there, we all appreciate it! Don't worry about your guns being grabbed here, while you're gone, I think you're safe, for now.

tenpercentfirearms
05-10-2006, 6:24 AM
Everyone realize what I am saying when I say that SKSs are now assault weapons. ACCORDING TO THE DOJ, SKSs are now assault weapons. Of course we know what the law says about detachable magazines and that is why I am not worried about having a fixed magazine on my off list lower. I merely bring this point up as a counter to the DOJs new memo. If they are going to try and make us think this memo means anything, then they will need to answer the SKS question immediately. The field agents start work at 7 AM. Are you going to call them today and ask about the legality of your SKS? I am.

Leadthrower
05-10-2006, 6:33 AM
If we go by the DOJ's standards Mini-14 are AW's too....for that matter it can be applied to quite a few weapons not currently not no the CA AW-list.:confused:

klmmicro
05-10-2006, 7:03 AM
If we go by the DOJ's standards Mini-14 are AW's too....for that matter it can be applied to quite a few weapons not currently not no the CA AW-list.:confused:

Does your Mini-14 have any other feature besides the magazine? I own an M14 and it has no forward grip, pistol grip, flash-hider or folding stock. I think it is about the same config as the average Mini-14. Is my rifle about to become an AW?

What feature does the SKS have that makes it evil besides the possible mag swap?

bwiese
05-10-2006, 7:05 AM
Does your Mini-14 have any other feature besides the magazine? I own an M14 and it has no forward grip, pistol grip, flash-hider or folding stock. I think it is about the same config as the average Mini-14. Is my rifle about to become an AW?

What feature does the SKS have that makes it evil besides the possible mag swap?

These issues wouldn't apply to gripless Mini14s (with no folder stocks etc).

But "SKS with detachable magazine" is a 12276-listed assault weapon in & of itself.

tenpercentfirearms
05-10-2006, 8:24 AM
I talked to Renae this morning from the DOJ and she has been instructed to take down any messages related to the memo and they will have someone call me back. She too seemed intrigued that SKSs had just been deemed assault weapons. She almost gave me the impression that the memo is a separate issue that she is indifferent to. By the end of the day, that indifference might turn to scorn.

Speaking of scorn, where is the Scorn of the DOJ (inside joke for now)?

I will let you know if I hear anything back by the end of the day.

ohsmily
05-10-2006, 9:14 AM
Does your Mini-14 have any other feature besides the magazine? I own an M14 and it has no forward grip, pistol grip, flash-hider or folding stock. I think it is about the same config as the average Mini-14. Is my rifle about to become an AW?

What feature does the SKS have that makes it evil besides the possible mag swap?

DETACHABLE MAGAZINE SKSs ARE BANNED REGARDLESS OF WHAT "EVIL" FEATURES THEY HAVE.

PIRATE14
05-10-2006, 10:03 AM
Lol so Turners just sold me a Assualt Weapon a week ago? oh great

Turners selling AW's.......I can't believe it.

It is capable of accepting a detachable mag and already listed by name so if the memo is where they are headed than it's not looking good.

But you know those memos have a way of changing or just dissapear in cyberspace............

PanzerAce
05-10-2006, 10:16 AM
I talked to Renae this morning from the DOJ and she has been instructed to take down any messages related to the memo and they will have someone call me back. She too seemed intrigued that SKSs had just been deemed assault weapons. She almost gave me the impression that the memo is a separate issue that she is indifferent to. By the end of the day, that indifference might turn to scorn.

Speaking of scorn, where is the Scorn of the DOJ (inside joke for now)?

I will let you know if I hear anything back by the end of the day.

Interesting, was she in the Firearms Dept or just general DOJ? cause if people even within the Firearms Dept are starting to get ticked about this (in our favor) we should be able to use this to our advantage....

jemaddux
05-10-2006, 10:51 AM
I talked to Renae this morning from the DOJ and she has been instructed to take down any messages related to the memo and they will have someone call me back. She too seemed intrigued that SKSs had just been deemed assault weapons. She almost gave me the impression that the memo is a separate issue that she is indifferent to. By the end of the day, that indifference might turn to scorn.

Speaking of scorn, where is the Scorn of the DOJ (inside joke for now)?

I will let you know if I hear anything back by the end of the day.


She said the same thing to me. She took my name and number and said after a meeting with legal someone would get back to me. But she did state that as the memo is written that the SKS, Mini 14, M1, so on would be illegal for sale if this holds the way it is written. The SKS for the record for those who seem to be confused does not come with a detachable mag but with the use of a tool you can remove the fixed mag and replace it, it is in no way permanent and neither is many other firearms. So around and around we go and no one knows where this is going to stop.:eek:

tenpercentfirearms
05-10-2006, 11:04 AM
Damn you selfish off listers for getting my SKS banned. Why can't you think about anybody buy yourselves! :D

hoffmang
05-10-2006, 12:18 PM
Just a note for Chris:

If you were out of country when a reg period occurred the reality is that all you need to do is get one of us or a friend to send a you a copy of the form and worst case, fill it out, mail it back to your CA person, and they can mail it on your behalf. As long as you have residency (and your military status allows you to declare your residency) you can register.

Its not even clear to me that a CA resident has to actually have a gun in the state or country to register it as an AW as long as it legally belongs to them. Wouldn't it be funny if a group of servicemen switched their residency to CA during the next reg period and registered all sorts of fun things?

chris
05-10-2006, 11:51 PM
pretty wierd how an M1 garand canbe an AW since it has no capicity to accept a magazine at all. it can only hold 8 rds. unless you seriously modify the rifle i just don't see it. besides they won't go after that weapon. i recall long ago that there are too many people that own that rifle and the political back lash would be huge. just curious does a M1 fall under C&R?

and thanks for the help guys. anyways it would be hard for someone to get into my safe since i'm the onlyone who knows the combo. as for the SKS i have had it since 89 or so.

Crazed_SS
05-11-2006, 5:22 AM
I'm reading the memo and it says:

"Law enforcement officials, firearm dealers and the public should be aware that semiautomatic centerfire rifles that are modified to be temporarily incapable of accepting detachable magazines, but can be restored to accommodate detachable magazines, are assault weapons if they have any of the features listed in §12276.1(a)(1)."

This wouldnt wouldnt apply to SKS's, IMO. I think everyone is grasping for straws here.

It's reffering to rifles that originally were designed to accept detachable mags and are then are modified later to not take detachable mags... AR-15's, AKs, FALs, etc. The DOJ has said all along that 58 DA's might not agree with the way people have been fixing their mags. Now the DOJ seems to be coming out and saying it themselves.

Choptop
05-11-2006, 6:00 AM
not grasping at straws at all...

consider this...

up until this memo my SKS, with a non-removable magazine (as defined previously to the memo) AND a pistol grip stock was completely legal.

If I was to remove the magazine, I would FIRST have to remove the pistol grip, othewise I would have made an assualt weapon.


NOW, the DOJ is saying EVEN WITH THE MAGAZINE IN PLACE IT IS AN ASSUALT WEPAON JUST BECAUSE THE MAGAZINE CAN BE REMOVED.

totally new definition.

chris
05-11-2006, 11:26 PM
they are splitting hairs on this one.

gh429
05-12-2006, 3:13 AM
Is the SKS originally designed to accept detachable magazines? Where are you guys getting these pistol grips? My SKS which I think I bought for $150 (haha) back in mid 90's is just a regular rifle that I need to load with stripper clips??

shopkeep
05-12-2006, 4:13 AM
I'm reading the memo and it says:

"Law enforcement officials, firearm dealers and the public should be aware that semiautomatic centerfire rifles that are modified to be temporarily incapable of accepting detachable magazines, but can be restored to accommodate detachable magazines, are assault weapons if they have any of the features listed in 12276.1(a)(1)."

This wouldnt wouldnt apply to SKS's, IMO. I think everyone is grasping for straws here.

It's reffering to rifles that originally were designed to accept detachable mags and are then are modified later to not take detachable mags... AR-15's, AKs, FALs, etc. The DOJ has said all along that 58 DA's might not agree with the way people have been fixing their mags. Now the DOJ seems to be coming out and saying it themselves.

Can the SKS accept a detachable magazine... YES. All you need is a bullet to modify the SKS to accept a detachble magazine, just drop the fixed mag and you're good to go. And unlike AR-15 and AK-47 simply by virtue of having a detachble magazine, the SKS is banned by name (original Roberti Roos 1989 banned detachable magazine SKS rifles).

ohsmily
05-12-2006, 7:42 AM
not grasping at straws at all...

consider this...

up until this memo my SKS, with a non-removable magazine (as defined previously to the memo) AND a pistol grip stock was completely legal.

If I was to remove the magazine, I would FIRST have to remove the pistol grip, othewise I would have made an assualt weapon.


NOW, the DOJ is saying EVEN WITH THE MAGAZINE IN PLACE IT IS AN ASSUALT WEPAON JUST BECAUSE THE MAGAZINE CAN BE REMOVED.

totally new definition.

The pistol grip is IRRELEVANT. With no evil features and a detachable magazine, an SKS is an assault weapon b/c it is specifically named.

kenc9
05-12-2006, 8:19 AM
The pistol grip is IRRELEVANT. With no evil features and a detachable magazine, an SKS is an assault weapon b/c it is specifically named.

That is kind of a general statement on the SKS. The only SKS that is listed as an AW is """Norinco SKS w/ detachable magazine""" not all SKS's just one.

-ken

artherd
05-12-2006, 9:11 AM
Is the SKS originally designed to accept detachable magazines?
Irrelivant, the AR-15 was designed as a fully-automatic weapon, yet it's not a Machine Gun.
Where are you guys getting these pistol grips? My SKS which I think I bought for $150 (haha) back in mid 90's is just a regular rifle that I need to load with stripper clips??
SKS pistol grip stocks are widely available.

If you do not understand why your SKS now "could be" an AW just as much as any fixed-mag-AR could be, then you need to re-read this thread.

mblat
05-12-2006, 9:19 AM
That is kind of a general statement on the SKS. The only SKS that is listed as an AW is """Norinco SKS w/ detachable magazine""" not all SKS's just one.

-ken


That even worse - now we have some SKS that are assult weapons and some that don't.....

OLL situation all over again.... :eek:

Crazed_SS
05-12-2006, 12:10 PM
Can the SKS accept a detachable magazine... YES. All you need is a bullet to modify the SKS to accept a detachble magazine, just drop the fixed mag and you're good to go. And unlike AR-15 and AK-47 simply by virtue of having a detachble magazine, the SKS is banned by name (original Roberti Roos 1989 banned detachable magazine SKS rifles).

"semiautomatic centerfire rifles that are modified to be temporarily incapable of accepting detachable magazines, but can be restored to accommodate detachable magazines"

You're not reading. This doesnt apply to the SKS as the SKS was never modified to temporarily accept a detachable mag in the first place. There was no modification when it comes to the SKS.

This is refferring to modifying a weapon that is designed to have a detachable mag. They're saying that if you take a rifle, such as an AR-15, and temporarily modify it to not accept detachable mags, that it is still an AW because of how easily and quickly it can be converted back.

shopkeep
05-12-2006, 4:27 PM
"semiautomatic centerfire rifles that are modified to be temporarily incapable of accepting detachable magazines, but can be restored to accommodate detachable magazines"

You're not reading. This doesnt apply to the SKS as the SKS was never modified to temporarily accept a detachable mag in the first place. There was no modification when it comes to the SKS.

This is refferring to modifying a weapon that is designed to have a detachable mag. They're saying that if you take a rifle, such as an AR-15, and temporarily modify it to not accept detachable mags, that it is still an AW because of how easily and quickly it can be converted back.

And how are you determining the intended configuration of a stripped reciever? A stripped SKS reciever can be built into a detachable mag or fixed mag configuration. An AR-15 reciever can be build into either a detachable magazine or stripped magazine configuration... do you think FAB-10 recievers and Bushy CARBON-15 recievers begin their life as a sealed magwell reciever? NO they begin life as open magwell, yet once sealed suddenly they were never "temporarily disabled" despite the fact that a dremal and less than 5 minutes is all it takes to pop the rivet and open the magwell again.

Omega13device
05-12-2006, 4:44 PM
Maybe I am missing something but what about the part in bold below:
Law enforcement officials, firearm dealers and the public should be aware that semiautomatic centerfire rifles that are modified to be temporarily incapable of accepting detachable magazines, but can be restored to accommodate detachable magazines, are assault weapons if they have any of the features listed in §12276.1(a)(1)."
If you don't have a flash suppressor, pistol grip, thumbhole/telescoping/folding stock, etc., you should be fine. Am I wrong?

Cato
05-12-2006, 4:46 PM
Nah, it's only an Assault Weapon if the DOJ follows through on this memo. I am also operating on the assumption that they cannot say "This memo applies to all rifles except the following: blah, blah, and blah".

My reading of the memo is that it applies SPECIFICALLY to those of us who built our AR 15/AK rifles with the mag lock kits. Within seconds the owner of the rifle can unlock the magazine. I dont believe they had the SKS in mind when they wrote the memo - the memo is even titled "AR 15/AK Series firearms."
The SKS is getting pulled into the debate by those who say, "Oh, any rifle can be made to accept a detachable magazine, then that's illegal too!" We all know that the SKS can be converted to a detachable magazine weapon with just a few tools and parts. But that's quite a bit different than taking an allen wrench and unlocking a magazine in a AR 15. Hey even those California Bushmasters can be cut here and there and made to accept a magazine.

Bling Bling 2.0
05-12-2006, 5:10 PM
My reading of the memo is that it applies SPECIFICALLY to those of us who built our AR 15/AK rifles with the mag lock kits. Within seconds the owner of the rifle can unlock the magazine. I dont believe they had the SKS in mind when they wrote the memo - the memo is even titled "AR 15/AK Series firearms."
The SKS is getting pulled into the debate by those who say, "Oh, any rifle can be made to accept a detachable magazine, then that's illegal too!" We all know that the SKS can be converted to a detachable magazine weapon with just a few tools and parts. But that's quite a bit different than taking an allen wrench and unlocking a magazine in a AR 15. Hey even those California Bushmasters can be cut here and there and made to accept a magazine.

Exactly, no modifications are truly permanent, even if welded.

"One can never step twice into the same river".

Crazed_SS
05-13-2006, 11:16 AM
My reading of the memo is that it applies SPECIFICALLY to those of us who built our AR 15/AK rifles with the mag lock kits. Within seconds the owner of the rifle can unlock the magazine. I dont believe they had the SKS in mind when they wrote the memo - the memo is even titled "AR 15/AK Series firearms."
The SKS is getting pulled into the debate by those who say, "Oh, any rifle can be made to accept a detachable magazine, then that's illegal too!" We all know that the SKS can be converted to a detachable magazine weapon with just a few tools and parts. But that's quite a bit different than taking an allen wrench and unlocking a magazine in a AR 15. Hey even those California Bushmasters can be cut here and there and made to accept a magazine.

Exactly.

The point of the memo is to explain that the DOJ doesnt believe the way people are fixing mags is acceptable. Everything else is just twisting words.

The Carbon-15 and Fab-10 were approved because the DOJ believed their designed differed enough from a normal AR-15 which the closed mag wells and such.. It takes a considerable amount more effort and skill to turn a Carbon-15 into an AW when compared to an off-list lower.

Crazed_SS
05-13-2006, 11:24 AM
And how are you determining the intended configuration of a stripped reciever? A stripped SKS reciever can be built into a detachable mag or fixed mag configuration.

Good point.. Sure, that's possible.

But there isnt gonna be a flood of stripped SKS receivers coming into the state and going to people who are hoping to build detachable mag SKS assault weapons as a SKS w/ detachable mag is already illegal in CA.. so as far as the DOJ is concerned, they already have their bases covered there.

Remember, like everyone says.. this is just a memo. Anyone who works in an office/corporate enviroment probably knows that memos usually provide guidance or intent.. kind of a "heads up". Later when everything is looked at and scrutinized, you get a policy which everyone will be expected to follow.

artherd
05-13-2006, 12:49 PM
It takes a considerable amount more effort and skill to turn a Carbon-15 into an AW when compared to an off-list lower.

15 seconds, simple hacksaw. Won't be pretty, but it will be a detachable mag AR.

shopkeep
05-14-2006, 9:58 PM
15 seconds, simple hacksaw. Won't be pretty, but it will be a detachable mag AR.

technically all it takes is a dremal. The dremal is the final word in removing any kind of fixed mag and this was first discovered with the Vulcan glued mags. I have seen dremals remove mags from FAB-10s and CARBON-15s just as easily though.

Dremals are AMAZING tools for gunsmithing work! I've seen a lot of work done with them on various firearms (including a very cool HAR-25 bolt catch mod here)! No garage gunsmith should be without one. I've even heard stories about people finishing up 80% 1911 frames using dremals :eek:!!!

Yep, after this change in regulations I'd expect them to require registration on Dremals.