PDA

View Full Version : Is the pistol grip really what makes an AW an AW? Maybe not...


wilit
05-06-2006, 11:10 AM
So while I was sitting here reading through all the threads, and most entertained by all the, "Hey would this be considered a pistol grip?" threads I got to thinking. Maybe we're all fixated on the pistol grip and detatchable magazine being the determining factor on being considered an assault weapon. What if a company were to chamber and manufacture a larger caliber rimfire cartridge?

The law only states The term “assault weapon” also means any firearm that falls under one of the following definitions pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

There is no distiction between a rifle being a rimfire and the cailber of that cartridge.

Large caliber rimfires used to be common place 100+ years ago, and granted their ballistics weren't that great, with today's technology I'm sure someone (*cough, Mr. Barrett*) could develop a round to get around the "centerfire" sentence in 12276.1. Even just a decade or two ago Remington made a very fine rimfire cartridge, the 5mm Rem. Mag.

I don't know, just thinking out loud here.

blacklisted
05-06-2006, 11:18 AM
I thought of this too, but a rimfire .223 would mean a different bolt/firing pin, and ammunition that nobody wants to make, because it wont sell outside of CA. Besides, I don't think it's possible to make a rimfire round that can contain that much pressure. I may be wrong though.

Omega13device
05-06-2006, 11:24 AM
Plus I have never heard of reloading rimfire cartridges. If you can't reload I would think that would limit the appeal.

However, kudos to you for thinking about this and trying to come up with an alternative solution.

MotoGuy
05-06-2006, 1:20 PM
So that means the .22LR uppers (like the Bushmaster) can be used with detachable mags?

I need to go buy some more lowers. :)

the_quark
05-06-2006, 1:29 PM
So that means the .22LR uppers (like the Bushmaster) can be used with detachable mags?

Well, A) You'd have to be really careful how you put it together. Lower receiver with no pistol grip, and no collapsable stock. Pin on the upper, bing! It's now a rimfire rifle, and you can put on the pistol grip.

But, B) - if you take it apart to clean it, you have to remove the pistol grip and any collapsable stock from the lower before you remove the upper. Otherwise, when you split it in half, you have a lower marked "5.56mm" with a pistol grip and a detachable magazine well.

So, yes, it seems pretty clear in the law that, if you have a .22LR upper, while it's together, it's legal, but as soon as you make it incapable of shooting it's a DANGEROUS ASSAULT WEAPON if you leave the pistol grip on :rolleyes:

And, of course, any of the famous 58 (or was it 59?) Attorneys General in the state could try to say it's constructive possession if you also have a 5.56 upper for it and bust you. Or even try to complain that upper or not, since the lower with a pistol grip alone is illegal, the lower with the pistol grip and a .22LR upper is illegal, too - that the lower receiver is the "essential" firearm, and it's marked 5.56mm on it, so it's not rimfire. Right now I'd say the law on a .22LR upper on a 5.56 lower with an unpinned magazine is a grey area, at best. Didn't someone make .22LR marked lowers at some point? I'd think that would be safer...

grammaton76
05-06-2006, 1:34 PM
So that means the .22LR uppers (like the Bushmaster) can be used with detachable mags?

I need to go buy some more lowers. :)

V-22 upper here; it's recently back for sale from a few vendors. $290 from militarygunsupply.com. This upper goes on ridiculously tight, you can't remove it without tools, and it will not accept USGI magazines when installed.

I've had LEOs and range employees ask to shoot it, and am not in jail. The paranoia re: 22's on here is a bit excessive IMHO.

http://www.cheapspeech.com/Pics/Guns/Collection_Mar2006/Offlist//s_dsc06027.jpg

Josh
05-06-2006, 1:37 PM
one issue with rimfire is that it limits the strength of the case. The rim has to be thin enough to allow reliable igniton while being strong enough to contain the pressure. This is an issue with rifle rounds.

Also you cant stack rimfires like rimeless cartridges in a magazine.

Then theres the extremly limited market for such a round.

wilit
05-06-2006, 4:42 PM
one issue with rimfire is that it limits the strength of the case. The rim has to be thin enough to allow reliable igniton while being strong enough to contain the pressure. This is an issue with rifle rounds.

Also you cant stack rimfires like rimeless cartridges in a magazine.

Then theres the extremly limited market for such a round.

As far as stacking rimfires, what do you mean? I have no problem loading 30 rounds of .22's into my friends 10/22 magazine.

Also, I think there's a limited market for such a round because no one has created a round worth purchasing. There seems to be a lot more interest in the .416 Barrett and .510DTC now that .50BMG's are no longer CA friendly.

And as far as the reloading issue, no you can't reload rimfires. However so few people reload their own ammo anyway I don't see it as being an issue.

shopkeep
05-06-2006, 5:25 PM
V-22 upper here; it's recently back for sale from a few vendors. $290 from militarygunsupply.com. This upper goes on ridiculously tight, you can't remove it without tools, and it will not accept USGI magazines when installed.

I've had LEOs and range employees ask to shoot it, and am not in jail. The paranoia re: 22's on here is a bit excessive IMHO.

http://www.cheapspeech.com/Pics/Guns/Collection_Mar2006/Offlist//s_dsc06027.jpg

Nice .22 man! I've been toying with the idea of building a carbon fiber .22 out of one of my Bushmaster CARBON-15 recievers or a Vulcan Carbon Fiber V-22.

grammaton76
05-06-2006, 8:04 PM
Nice .22 man! I've been toying with the idea of building a carbon fiber .22 out of one of my Bushmaster CARBON-15 recievers or a Vulcan Carbon Fiber V-22.

Not a bad idea, but bear in mind the V-22 is insanely tight on its pins. Considering the whacking and hammering you have to do, I'm not completely confident that the CF lower would appreciate it if you ended up removing and reinstalling it very often.

On the other hand, if you just install the V-22 upper once and leave it that way, you should be totally set.

bwiese
05-06-2006, 11:12 PM
Rimfire chambering or nonsemiauto action may likely be legally irrelevant on ARs where the serialized receiver can be independent of action type or chambering. This will likely not get you out of having a fixed mag....

Read my new doc http://www.calguns.net/copmemo2.pdf

You might have a chance if the off-list AR magwell for a 22LR conversion is blocked to any centerfire mag and only a 22 rimfire mag could fit.

This does not apply to AKs, FALs, etc. where the serialized receiver is tied to the action type & caliber.

Tread with caution because you just don't wanna be regarded as having an open magwell and pistol grip (and/or any other evil features).

artherd
05-08-2006, 12:08 PM
I'm gonna go build a semi-auto .60 calibre rimfire rifle with pistol grip now :D