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View Full Version : horrid Stockton PD pretext raid of CAS shooter's home...


bwiese
05-05-2006, 10:45 AM
Your basic Democrat pension-overfed cops at work. This wasn't even a big metro area, and the target was a retired cop.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9216.0.html

Hope cops involved pay big - and that someone attempts to go after the cops directly, and not the department. That's the only way this crap stops.

(paragraph divisions added below; text snipped for size)

...usu a few gunshots each night in N. Stockton. On the 16th of March some of the boys to the south did a little street war, and about an hour after the shots ended, I walked barefoot onto my front porch, and some kind of projectile hit the toe next to the great toe of my right foot. A split second later something hit the top of my left foot. I have been shot at by quad NVA .51 caliber monstrosities, but I got lower and moved faster than I have since 1970, leaving blood all over the porch. Once my steel outer door was closed, I closed my solid wood inner door. Rabbit people would have crawled directly to the phone, but I went to my workbench and grabbed a long chunk of linen I use for BP patch and general cleaning use, and tried to stop the bleeding from my right foot. Laying on the bench was my modern revolver rig, a Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum with a 5 1/2" barrel, which was out to be coated with Lexol. I didn't think much, just acted by reflex, and grabbed that belt and pistol and put it on my hips. {snip}

...still bleeding through the linen, but I headed for the phone and 911. That was when the doorbell rang. A little insure of the wisdom of answering the bell, I opened the inner door to see three SPD officers, one cop chick and two males on my porch. I said something like, "I'm glad to see you folks. I was just about to call you". That was when I realized they had some different quest. They informed me that they had received a "totally reliable" telephone call, and were investigating the report of me bringing a woman into my house an hour before, followed by a very loud gunshot. They said they had prob cause to enter my home to see if there had been gunfire or anyone wounded or dead. That seems to be when they saw the Redhawk.

I was asked why I was wearing a gunbelt and handgun. I related the toe cutting incident and that the gun rig was laying where I had tied on my bandage, and since someone had taken a bit off me, being armed seemed like a good idea. I told them that I believed I had the right to have a handgun in my home. They said I did, and asked if it was loaded. I said 'yes', and that an unloaded four pound handgun wasn't worth much. I offered to remove my gunbelt and reached for the buckle, and a split second later I was looking into the muzzles of three .40 caliber... pistols. I said I was going to release the buckle and let the gun belt drop to the floor. They told me that if I moved my hands below my shoulders, they would kill me.

One of the two males had dropped back from the porch light and experience tells me he was preparing for a tactical shot... ordered me to open the door, and I asked where was the warrant. They said that they had sufficient probable cause to enter and search my house, and that a warrant was not necessary. One officer used a cell phone and said to the others, "he's on his way." I was told that in 15- 20 minutes a crew would cut or tear the steel door off the door frame. One officer said that until I opened the door voluntarily I would be arrested, and that if I moved my hands below my shoulder that they would kill me. I have to say there was a brief moment where I considered the odds of what would happen if I went for the Redhawk and make them back up their threats with lead, but sanity, and knowing that the whole SPD was probably on it's way, and there was no way out alive, I opened the steel door.

I was disarmed and searched, then handcuffed. I told them I had a compression fracture of Lumbar vertebrae number 3, and was slated for surgery, and would appreciate it if they would double cuff me; connecting two sets of cuffs so that my arms would not be pulled as far behind me, and was told what I wanted was insignificant, and was walked into the living room and parked like a car in a chair. I asked if I was under arrest, and was told yes.

I asked what the charge was, and was told it was resisting arrest, and interfering with a police investigation. I was never read my rights. More officers arrived, and one opened the closet in the hall where my Browning safe lives (it was unlocked) and said "God da*n! Look at all these guns!". There proceeded to sack and find the other two safes, and requested that I open them. I refused, and the officer running the circus called his dispatch and asked that the plasma cutter be brought to the scene. He told me that if I did not open the other safes, they would cut them open, and would not be responsible for damage to the safes or the contents. The small safe had not firearms in it, just my native American bead and quill work, but the big Champion safe had most of my handgun collection, and all of my Winchester shotgun and BP long rifle collection, and a ton of camera equipment, plus things like my tax records, vital documents, etc. So, under duress, I opened both safes. I asked to make a phone call, and was uncuffed long enough to call my sister.

...cop watched me make the call, with a SIG 40 in hand, occasionally passing the bore in line with my head. After the phone call, the duty sergeant, who one was a close friend (but no longer), told me they wanted to transport me to a St. Joseph's Hospital clinic for care of my foot, and to give the officers uninterrupted time to search my house. I agreed but only if the cuffs were removed, as I was by now in a great deal of pain. The cuffs came off, and I was led out to a black and white, where I was re-cuffed before being put in the cage.

It turned out that I was being taken to a locked ward mental facility for evaluation. It took about four hours to be interviewed by a psychologist, who told me that what I had been through was terrible, and that I was taking it very well. He then called the SPD and told them I was a man who had collected firearms from age 12, and was no threat to myself or anyone else, and that the call they had responded to was probably bogus; an act of revenge for some perceived wrong, or simply bull****, and that he was release me. In the mean time the gang in the blue uniforms had turned my house upside down, given it a good shake, and could not find any evidence of a recent gunshot, that none of my firearms appeared to have been fired in quite some time. But, because of a law that went into effect on Jan 1, they had to confiscate all 79 of my firearms to the SPD evidence room. I would have to get a full background check, and $146 in fees to have my background and the origin of my firearms put in effect. Results are due in late May. When we got back to my home, the house was dark and both front door were unlocked, and the house was dark. The house looked like a teenage gang had snuck in and had a kegger, minus the spray paint on the walls. The good news is that I have a local lawyer who does civil rights cases, and support from the NRA Gen Council. But, neither want to take any action until I get my guns back. I have filed all the appropriate paperwork with the DOJ, and the end of May is an optimistic return date, as criminal background investigations of perps and their guns take precedence, as do the sales through dealers during the 10 day waiting period. But not is all dark. I have a 12ga. 3 inch.... {snip}

...with my total knee replacement in left leg, tendonitis in my ankles, a new broken vertebrae, a 12 year old Girl Scout could take me out; just kick or hit the left knee, and I will go down...{snip}

That night ... one cop asked me what I was planning to do with all those guns. I replied that it was a collection my folks had helped me start when I was 12, and I had Hunted and participated in almost every kind of shooting sport you could name; He asked if I was going to "do a Columbine". I offered him a wager: find one instance of me harming anyone, in any way, even when threatened with lethal force since I quit the SPD, and I'd give him a C note for each year he had been on the force. He has not called up to claim the wager.

That's the sad facts folks. NY, New Jersey, DC, and Chicago are worse than California, But, after this episode I can say with authority: I love my Country, but I am afraid of the Government, and now the bastard cops in my home town.

....[if] I had been called to a site of a possible homicide, and the door was opened by a bleeding man with a gun on his belt, I would have called a Supervisor and asked for a warrant. Doing what they did under the thin shield of probable cause is ridiculous in the extreme. If the subject was bleeding, I would have called for the medics. I would not have threatened to kill a man offering to undo a buckle and drop his gin a belt at his feet. The coercion and duress they practiced to get into my home, and into my safes is simply criminal. For me, I could have taken the "cold dead hands" position, but I kind of enjoy living another day, and after being a sworn officer, I find it almost impossible to considering fighting other police officers. But, I think if I had been faced with the same situation again, I'd end up dead, but the SPD officers would have good reason to not walk away clean. It probably will never will happen again. But if it did, before my family put me in the ground next to my wife, my response would change some minds among these hyper-aggresive officers about violating the civil rights to own firearms, but also the 4th amendment laws concerning legal search and seizure, as well as Miranda and Escobedo, or leaving an inventory of what evidence was taken, and property was seized.

SASS 5674 Life, NRA Life

50 Freak
05-05-2006, 10:55 AM
I don't know Bill, usually I'm not a big proponent of the police searching a house without a warrant and doing it on PC.

But put yourself in the LE's shoes. You get a call from someone saying Joe Blow brought a woman into his house, an hour later a gunshot was heard and no woman ever exited. You show up to Joe Blow's house and there's blood all over the floor and he's bleeding and wearing a gun belt.

Little kooky in my book.

What I don't agree with is why must LE's seize every firearm if they come to your house? Even break into your safe and then take your LEGALLY owned guns downtown and force you to pay money and endure heartache to get them back.

bwiese
05-05-2006, 11:06 AM
More and more reason why you should record EVERY transaction with LEOs.

I think I'm wiring my house w/networked sound and video this month - mostly for techie fun, but "just in case". The data would be stored offsite so cops can't destroy or tamper with it. From a security standpoint I can check my house while away and see what the cats are up to.

I already carry a tape recorder in my car in case of traffic stops.

ryang
05-05-2006, 11:11 AM
The story sounds odd to me for several reasons.

1. As a retired cop the guy should have known better than to make casual hand movement towards his belt buckle.
2. His comment about "they never read me my rights" indicates a strange lack of knowledge regarding miranda rights. They only time it's required is when you are questioning a suspect w/o exigent circumstances. Again, he should have known this.
3. He should also have known search and seizure laws better. Regardless of what SPD cops might have said on scene, no immediate need existed to cut open the locked safes. A search warrant is required for that and the cops would have been in really hot water if they did cut the safe w/o one.

Can'thavenuthingood
05-05-2006, 11:20 AM
This was a retired Stockton police officer. I would think that one of the 3 leo's would have recognized that fact since he has been living there for some time. He does apparently live in their jurisdiction.

It does not appear that they listened to his story, rather they just assumed the defensive and responded without thinking things through.

Why not wait for a warrant? Where was he going? He was very well covered with 3 weapons trained on him and showed no resistance. He offered to drop his belt but the nervous nellies were not up to the task.

We only have one side of the story so far, but as crippled as he is and as assinine as the leo's acted, the other side of the story couldn't possibly bridge that gap of unwarranted actions.

No reason to trash his home either.

Those aren't LEO's, they are Jack Booted Thugs.

Vick

Matt C
05-05-2006, 11:23 AM
A month ago I would have thought this was bogus or an isolated incident. Not any more.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=32796

Clodbuster
05-05-2006, 11:30 AM
Couldv've been worst. The mere act of "reach for the gun belt" would have resulted in the emptying of several high capacity magazines at a terrifc rate.
Then there would've been only 1 story to tell, and we all know the lines to that story...suspect reached for gun...blah.blah..house contained an arsenal.


Clod

This was a retired Stockton police officer. I would think that one of the 3 leo's would have recognized that fact since he has been living there for some time. He does apparently live in their jurisdiction.

It does not appear that they listened to his story, rather they just assumed the defensive and responded without thinking things through.

Why not wait for a warrant? Where was he going? He was very well covered with 3 weapons trained on him and showed no resistance. He offered to drop his belt but the nervous nellies were not up to the task.

We only have one side of the story so far, but as crippled as he is and as assinine as the leo's acted, the other side of the story couldn't possibly bridge that gap of unwarranted actions.

No reason to trash his home either.

Those aren't LEO's, they are Jack Booted Thugs.

Vick

DrjonesUSA
05-05-2006, 12:11 PM
One of the two males had dropped back from the porch light and experience tells me he was preparing for a tactical shot... ordered me to open the door, and I asked where was the warrant. They said that they had sufficient probable cause to enter and search my house, and that a warrant was not necessary. One officer used a cell phone and said to the others, "he's on his way." I was told that in 15- 20 minutes a crew would cut or tear the steel door off the door frame. One officer said that until I opened the door voluntarily I would be arrested, and that if I moved my hands below my shoulder that they would kill me. I have to say there was a brief moment where I considered the odds of what would happen if I went for the Redhawk and make them back up their threats with lead, but sanity, and knowing that the whole SPD was probably on it's way, and there was no way out alive, I opened the steel door.


Too bad that guy doesn't know his rights.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO OPEN THE DOOR AND ALLOW ANYONE (ESPECIALLY NOT COPS) INTO YOUR HOUSE UNLESS THEY HAVE A WARRANT.

IF THEY SAY THEY ARE GOING TO CALL SWAT TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOUSE, THEY ARE LYING.

IF THEY SAY THEY CAN HAVE A WARRANT WITHIN A FEW MINUTES, TELL THEM TO OBLIGE AND GO GET IT.

AGAIN, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LET A COP INTO YOUR HOUSE IF HE DOES NOT HAVE A WARRANT.

IF HE TELLS YOU YOU DO, HE IS LYING AND HE KNOWS IT.

johnny_22
05-05-2006, 12:13 PM
More and more reason why you should record EVERY transaction with LEOs.

I think I'm wiring my house w/networked sound and video this month - mostly for techie fun, but "just in case". The data would be stored offsite so cops can't destroy or tamper with it. From a security standpoint I can check my house while away and see what the cats are up to.

I already carry a tape recorder in my car in case of traffic stops.


I bought my setup from www.supercircuits.com. All Korean made; nothing from China. 4 cameras with a quad. Good for watching the cars at night, Halloween, and UPS/FEDEX deliveries.

Major Miner II
05-05-2006, 12:29 PM
Too bad that guy doesn't know his rights.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO OPEN THE DOOR AND ALLOW ANYONE (ESPECIALLY NOT COPS) INTO YOUR HOUSE UNLESS THEY HAVE A WARRANT.

IF THEY SAY THEY ARE GOING TO CALL SWAT TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOUSE, THEY ARE LYING.

IF THEY SAY THEY CAN HAVE A WARRANT WITHIN A FEW MINUTES, TELL THEM TO OBLIGE AND GO GET IT.

AGAIN, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LET A COP INTO YOUR HOUSE IF HE DOES NOT HAVE A WARRANT.

IF HE TELLS YOU YOU DO, HE IS LYING AND HE KNOWS IT.
Exigent (thanks Bill ;) ) circumstances.

DrjonesUSA
05-05-2006, 12:30 PM
Exigent (thanks Bill ;) ) circumstances.


Please explain what that means.

Major Miner II
05-05-2006, 12:35 PM
Please explain what that means.
It means that if they believe there to be a situation in your house requiring immediate police action, they can enter without a warrant.

bwiese
05-05-2006, 12:35 PM
Please explain what that means.

'Exigent circumstances' means emergency situations.

To me this appeared to be a pretext. Cops should be smart enough to determine angry neighbors' fake phone calls.

Kruzr
05-05-2006, 12:36 PM
Too bad that guy doesn't know his rights.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO OPEN THE DOOR AND ALLOW ANYONE (ESPECIALLY NOT COPS) INTO YOUR HOUSE UNLESS THEY HAVE A WARRANT.

IF THEY SAY THEY ARE GOING TO CALL SWAT TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOUSE, THEY ARE LYING.

IF THEY SAY THEY CAN HAVE A WARRANT WITHIN A FEW MINUTES, TELL THEM TO OBLIGE AND GO GET IT.

AGAIN, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LET A COP INTO YOUR HOUSE IF HE DOES NOT HAVE A WARRANT.

IF HE TELLS YOU YOU DO, HE IS LYING AND HE KNOWS IT.
This was certainly the case before Patriot Act I and II. While this still applies to local police, it does not to the Feds. If you are "suspected" of carrying out terrorist activities, no warrant is required to either search or confiscate (without a receipt) anything they want. They can get the warrant 3 days later under FISA the law. Under the practice of the current administration, no warrant is needed since they have declared themselves to be above the FISA under the vote of Congress to "do anything".

gh429
05-05-2006, 12:37 PM
Too bad that guy doesn't know his rights.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO OPEN THE DOOR AND ALLOW ANYONE (ESPECIALLY NOT COPS) INTO YOUR HOUSE UNLESS THEY HAVE A WARRANT.

IF THEY SAY THEY ARE GOING TO CALL SWAT TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOUSE, THEY ARE LYING.

IF THEY SAY THEY CAN HAVE A WARRANT WITHIN A FEW MINUTES, TELL THEM TO OBLIGE AND GO GET IT.

AGAIN, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LET A COP INTO YOUR HOUSE IF HE DOES NOT HAVE A WARRANT.

IF HE TELLS YOU YOU DO, HE IS LYING AND HE KNOWS IT.

Uh... Reported abduction, blood, reports of shots fired, armed suspect... I would think any judge would rule sufficient probably cause in this case. I don't think the cops did anything wrong in this case maybe other than be *******s after they discovered there was no woman. But then again, they were working on the pretext there was a potential homicide...

BTW, it is NOT smart to refuse to let cops into the house. In the case of a potential homicide IF they call the SWAT team you're pretty much screwed and have a good chance of ending up dead. The SMART thing to do is politely ask if you have the right to refuse, and if the cops say no because they have PC then accomodate them and let the courts sort it out. It is most definitely not worth getting shot for - especially if you have done nothing wrong...

50 Freak
05-05-2006, 1:04 PM
BTW, it is NOT smart to refuse to let cops into the house. In the case of a potential homicide IF they call the SWAT team you're pretty much screwed and have a good chance of ending up dead. The SMART thing to do is politely ask if you have the right to refuse, and if the cops say no because they have PC then accomodate them and let the courts sort it out. It is most definitely not worth getting shot for - especially if you have done nothing wrong...

No offense meant, but I disagree. It is not smart to LET a cop into your house PERIOD. If they want to bring in SWAT, then let them, you will surrender without any problems.

Bringing in the SWAT team is another level most patrol cop are not willing to do unless he's DAMN sure something is wrong. If you bring in SWAT, the city has to absorb the costs (which is substantial) for both the SWAT teams and backup. And if nothing comes up his sargent is going to rip him a new a-hole.

Ask for a warrant, if he says he can get one in 5 minutes, tell him you're going to grab a soda and when he can produce one, you will let him in. Again most patrol cops are not going to bring this to another level as getting a warrant involves getting a judge to sign off. And they don't want to piss off the judge if nothing comes up.

Lastly if they want to force a search based on extingent reasons, then lodge your protest, try to get a lawyer there as quickly as possible. SHUT YOUR YAP AND OFFER NO HELP, but at the same time do not hinder their investigation. This is something that will have to be played out later in court.

antarius
05-05-2006, 1:17 PM
Too bad that guy doesn't know his rights.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO OPEN THE DOOR AND ALLOW ANYONE (ESPECIALLY NOT COPS) INTO YOUR HOUSE UNLESS THEY HAVE A WARRANT.

IF THEY SAY THEY ARE GOING TO CALL SWAT TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOUSE, THEY ARE LYING.

IF THEY SAY THEY CAN HAVE A WARRANT WITHIN A FEW MINUTES, TELL THEM TO OBLIGE AND GO GET IT.

AGAIN, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LET A COP INTO YOUR HOUSE IF HE DOES NOT HAVE A WARRANT.

IF HE TELLS YOU YOU DO, HE IS LYING AND HE KNOWS IT.
You need to make sure you've got your facts straight before you, one day, get your door kicked in and get picked up for 148.

There are exigent circumstances, quite a few actually, that allow a police officer to enter your house without a warrant. You may not even know that those circumstances exist... so go ahead and refuse entry, that's your right, but if the police officer has one of those exigent circumstances in place, he can, and most likely will, enter.

This story (above) sounds legitimate, but somewhat fishy. I don't really see what the major concern is...

If I walked up to a house where I had gotten a report of shots fired and a possible victim, the door opens and there's a guy with a gun belt on, bleeding, with blood from outside leading inside... I'd want to enter as well. Furthermore, after speaking with him, if he told me some magical "thing" cut his big tow, causing him to tacti-crawl to a piece of linen where he tied it around his foot, grab his gun belt, and get ready to take aim.. I'd sure as hell book him for 5150 (basically requiring a doctor to evaluate him) as well!

Worst case he gets released from the Doc, and gets his guns back. No harm no foul.

Imagine the "other side of the coin." They leave, pretend nothing happened, pretend no exigent circumstance exists and there is, in fact, a dead body in the bathroom? Let's not even take it that far, let's just pretend for some reason this guy went off the deep end and decided to shoot at the UPS guy who came up to his house later in that day... thinking he was defending himself, he takes out a UPS delivery guy. Then who would you blame? Clearly, the cops, for not doing their job and requiring an evaluation or properly securing/investigating the scene.

There's no doubt the police officers could have been more friendly to him, but is it their job to be friendly or get the job done, make a decision, and act on it? I lean toward the latter.

gh429
05-05-2006, 1:23 PM
No offense meant, but I disagree. It is not smart to LET a cop into your house PERIOD. If they want to bring in SWAT, then let them, you will surrender without any problems.

Bringing in the SWAT team is another level most patrol cop are not willing to do unless he's DAMN sure something is wrong. If you bring in SWAT, the city has to absorb the costs (which is substantial) for both the SWAT teams and backup. And if nothing comes up his sargent is going to rip him a new a-hole.

Ask for a warrant, if he says he can get one in 5 minutes, tell him you're going to grab a soda and when he can produce one, you will let him in. Again most patrol cops are not going to bring this to another level as getting a warrant involves getting a judge to sign off. And they don't want to piss off the judge if nothing comes up.

Lastly if they want to force a search based on extingent reasons, then lodge your protest, try to get a lawyer there as quickly as possible. SHUT YOUR YAP AND OFFER NO HELP, but at the same time do not hinder their investigation. This is something that will have to be played out later in court.

I see your point, and I think we're actually arguing two different scenarios.

I see your scenario as: Cop does not specifically cite a specific reason or the existence of PC and demands to enter your house. In that circumstance I agree with you, you should refuse search by all means. I don't necessarily agree that escalating the situation (where it looks like you are resisting arrest / barricading in your house) to the point a swat team might be involved is a good idea, but asking for a warrant and demanding the officer establish PC always is.

My scenario is (which you outlined in your last paragraph): Officer(s) state they have PC and demand to enter your house. In this event I 100% agree with you - lodge your protest, put it on the record that the entry / search is NON-CONSENTING, then get out of the way.

Basically one of my cars used to be I guess what you call heavily modified, which was a right-hand drive gray-market car (legally imported). I used to get pulled over ALL THE TIME. And each time I get pulled over we'd go through the same PC / RC california vehicle code BS. The majority of the time refusing search negatively escalates the situation as you would be surprised how many officers have no clear understanding of search/seizure law. I just found it much easier to cooperate to the best of your ability without compromising too many of your legal rights (it's a fine line), de-escalate the situation, and usually I'd just walk away with a front-license plate ticket. Once in awhile you're going to run into that ******* cop, but generally speaking they have always been fairly reasonable, and I have almost always gotten off easy and on good terms with the citing officer.

glen avon
05-05-2006, 1:25 PM
pretext? pretext for what? like, this guy was a marked man and the cops were out to get him, so they manufactured a shooting story on their way to a house where a guy coincidentally got shot in the foot?

or he was on some blacklist?

the cops were bored, and out of donuts, so they fired up HAL2000 to see if there were any CAS shooters in the neighborhood, who were home, because the cops' *real* motive was to confiscated wild west guns from a cripple?

the cops' appearance on his doorstep was a pretext for what?

gh429
05-05-2006, 1:28 PM
pretext? pretext for what?

Perhaps "pretext" wasn't the best choice of words you grammar nazi. :D

Matt C
05-05-2006, 1:31 PM
pretext? pretext for what?

Pretext to raid your house and take your guns.


pre·text-websters

NOUN:

1. An ostensible or professed purpose; an excuse.
2. An effort or strategy intended to conceal something.

antarius
05-05-2006, 1:38 PM
[QUOTE=Blackwater OPS]Pretext to raid your house and take your guns.


pre·text-websters

NOUN:

1. An ostensible or professed purpose; an excuse.
2. An effort or strategy intended to conceal something.
They took them pursuant to what's required when you require a mental evaluation of a person per W&I 5150 (or others). They didn't confiscate his weapons "for good", or even try to. All he has to do is get the evaluation completed, and request his weapons be returned to him if he, in-fact, was not deemed to be a danger to himself or others.

If they wanted to "take his guns," this would not be the method to go about it...

50 Freak
05-05-2006, 1:39 PM
There are exigent circumstances, quite a few actually, that allow a police officer to enter your house without a warrant. You may not even know that those circumstances exist... so go ahead and refuse entry, that's your right, but if the police officer has one of those exigent circumstances in place, he can, and most likely will, enter.

This story (above) sounds legitimate, but somewhat fishy. I don't really see what the major concern is...

Antarius, I totally agree with you. The LE's were right in this circumstance to enter the property. Call of a possible murder...Suspect covered in blood carrying a pistol.....Hell I would go the exact same thing.

I believe there are tests that have to be meet for a LE to enter your house under Exigent Circumstances. "I had a gut feeling" is not one of them. If the officer does pursue to enter a person's house under "Exigent circumstances" I hope that officer can effectively articulate those reasons to a jury, judge and lawyer. If not, he's going to have his head handed back to him and possibly be in line for discipline or termination from work.

Like I said before..."I had a gut feeling" is not one of these valid reasons. Seeing an armed bank robbery suspect running through someone's house, hearing screams for help and the guy answering the door is covered in blood are too good examples of Exigent circumstances. There were clear cut lines set by the law that law enforcement officers must obey. This isn't the wild west.

glen avon
05-05-2006, 1:42 PM
Perhaps "pretext" wasn't the best choice of words you grammar nazi. :D

hey now, while I will not deny that I can be a grammar nazi, this isn't a matter of grammar. pretext isn't a word choice here, it means quite a bit. it means that the cops wanted to take down the CAS shooter and raid his home for some reason besides the story they gave.

bill never gave the "real reason." without that, there is no "pretext."

glen avon
05-05-2006, 1:47 PM
Pretext to raid your house and take your guns.


pre·text-websters

NOUN:

1. An ostensible or professed purpose; an excuse.
2. An effort or strategy intended to conceal something.

no-***** - common lexicon

EXPRESSION:

Commonly used to display disdain when another indicates something obvious :D



pretext assumes the cops knew that he had guns and that's why they showed up at the house in the first place. facially a ridiculous proposition.

ri-dic-u-lous - calgunictionary

ADJECTIVE:

Used to describe a comical or improbable nature (e.g., the idea of cops responding to a call of shots fired as a pretext to actually temporarily seize guns of former LEO). :D :D

grammaton76
05-05-2006, 1:50 PM
Hey, Glen - I just noticed yesterday that right next to Bright Spot Pawn is some kinda automotive place called Glen Avon (something). Any relation to you?

glen avon
05-05-2006, 1:56 PM
BSP is in the unincorporated area of Riverside County known as Glen Avon.

antarius
05-05-2006, 2:10 PM
Antarius, I totally agree with you. The LE's were right in this circumstance to enter the property. Call of a possible murder...Suspect covered in blood carrying a pistol.....Hell I would go the exact same thing.

I believe there are tests that have to be meet for a LE to enter your house under Exigent Circumstances. "I had a gut feeling" is not one of them. If the officer does pursue to enter a person's house under "Exigent circumstances" I hope that officer can effectively articulate those reasons to a jury, judge and lawyer. If not, he's going to have his head handed back to him and possibly be in line for discipline or termination from work.

Like I said before..."I had a gut feeling" is not one of these valid reasons. Seeing an armed bank robbery suspect running through someone's house, hearing screams for help and the guy answering the door is covered in blood are too good examples of Exigent circumstances. There were clear cut lines set by the law that law enforcement officers must obey. This isn't the wild west.
I agree.. there are circumstances that need to be met for an "exigent" circumstance to allow entry into a household without a warrant.

Your example works, as does much lesser forms of that same scenario; And I certainly think this situation qualifies as an exigent circumstance.

I just look at it from a "What I'd do" perspective; I go to a location regarding possible shots fired with a victim. A man opens the door who is bleeding, has a duty belt and gun on his hip. While it's his right to be bleeding, and to carry a gun in his home... coupled with the initial call and what presents itself at that moment, I'd sure as hell call that an exigent circumstance.

And I also agree, a "gut feeling" isn't reason to enter someone's home, or even vehicle, without probable cause or a warrant.

50 Freak
05-05-2006, 2:20 PM
Just out of curiosity, what circumstances would fall under "Exigent circumstance". Don't cite the obvious (sounds of gunshots and blood everywhere), but what are some examples....smell of pot?, sight of firearm sitting on a table? wife with a black eye or crying? kids crying? family arguement?

I'd like to know just where the lines are drawn and how much a LE is willing to push those lines?

antarius
05-05-2006, 2:27 PM
Just out of curiosity, what circumstances would fall under "Exigent circumstance". Don't cite the obvious (sounds of gunshots and blood everywhere), but what are some examples....smell of pot?, sight of firearm sitting on a table? wife with a black eye or crying? kids crying? family arguement?

I'd like to know just where the lines are drawn and how much a LE is willing to push those lines?
A legitimate report of domestic violence would qualify. A juvenile party where alcohol is present, or visible, qualifies in my book. The destruction of evidence qualifies. (You show up to a drug house and hear people trying to stash, burn, or flush the evidence).

Basically, the threat to a person or the destruction of evidence qualifies as an "exigent circumstance." Also, a fleeing suspect... which you knew.

And me personally? I like my job, I don't intend on pushing those lines at all.

blacklisted
05-05-2006, 2:36 PM
Uh... Reported abduction, blood, reports of shots fired, armed suspect... I would think any judge would rule sufficient probably cause in this case. I don't think the cops did anything wrong in this case maybe other than be *******s after they discovered there was no woman. But then again, they were working on the pretext there was a potential homicide...

BTW, it is NOT smart to refuse to let cops into the house. In the case of a potential homicide IF they call the SWAT team you're pretty much screwed and have a good chance of ending up dead. The SMART thing to do is politely ask if you have the right to refuse, and if the cops say no because they have PC then accomodate them and let the courts sort it out. It is most definitely not worth getting shot for - especially if you have done nothing wrong...

To me, it isn't the PC that they used to get into the house that bothers me the most, it's what they did AFTER. They treated this man like a criminal and a lunatic, then endangered his life and property. There is no justification for that, no matter how hard you try.

Also, what the HELL happened to his foot? Did he step on something, or did someone shoot him / throw rocks?

50 Freak
05-05-2006, 2:54 PM
A legitimate report of domestic violence would qualify.


Curious....what qualifies as "legitimate report of domestic violence" neighbor calling in reporting of yelling next door? Crying wife at door, husband says it's just a little arguement...? Husband with track record of domestic abuse? Where do you determine what is "legitimate"?

A juvenile party where alcohol is present, or visible, qualifies in my book.
Underage drinking at a party....I have to disagree with you buddy on this one. I'm not a cop so please let me know if I'm wrong...Isn't underage drinking a misdemeanor? How does that qualify as "exigent"

The destruction of evidence qualifies. (You show up to a drug house and hear people trying to stash, burn, or flush the evidence).
Basically, the threat to a person or the destruction of evidence qualifies as an "exigent circumstance." Also, a fleeing suspect... which you knew.

How do you determine which is a drug house...It can't all be so simple as pulling up to a house where the front lawn is filled with used needles/crack pipes? If you have been there repeated times, I can see your point. But you come to a house that you've never been to before, Guy goes running into the bathroom upon seeing you at the front door? How do you know if he is trying to flush drugs or just had a bad burrito??:D

I have always wondered where the lines where. I appreciate you clarifying them.

Hell of job being a cop, I sure as heck couldn't do it. I like my weekends and holidays off. Sides, I'm a lover not a fighter....:D

gh429
05-05-2006, 3:20 PM
If a crime is taking place, or even what looks like a crime is taking place then PC is established for further inspection to determine if a crime is in fact taking place. Basically it's up to the determination of the officer, if he feels he can make a compelling case for PC, then it's basically on. It's up to a judge to determine whether or not the officer had sufficient PC after the fact - sometimes cases are thrown out, sometimes they are not. I mean underage drinking or whatevers leading to the discover of say a large stash of illegal drugs or firearms happens all the time... You have to keep in mind that what the courts weigh is actually your constitutional right to privacy versus the interests of law enforcement... Frequently judges here in California will rule in the favor of the latter...

50 Freak
05-05-2006, 3:28 PM
I mean underage drinking or whatevers leading to the discover of say a large stash of illegal drugs or firearms happens all the time... You have to keep in mind that what the courts weigh is actually your constitutional right to privacy versus the interests of law enforcement... Frequently judges here in California will rule in the favor of the latter...


Sounds like a fishing expedition to me, if I remember my consitutional law. That's frowned upon by the SCOTUS and have been ruled upon by case law. I wonder how it would play out in court that you stop by a guys house for loud music and use that as PC for to search his house to find the pot plant he had in his back yard.

gh429
05-05-2006, 3:35 PM
Well if you're there for loud music, then you smell marijuana, enter based on smelling marjuana, and discover some plants then you've established PC and can charge the guy. Happened to my buddy back in college... he actually got off with probation, but cost him over $15K in legal fees...

Edit: obviously smelling MJ would be the mechanism to establish PC, and you can charge the guy regardless, but the fact that the plants were admissable as evidence demonstrates that the officers arresting my friend were working within the legal constraints of unconsenting search/seizure.

50 Freak
05-05-2006, 3:42 PM
Well if you're there for loud music, then you smell marijuana, enter based on smelling marjuana, and discover some plants then you've established PC and can charge the guy. Happened to my buddy back in college... he actually got off with probation, but cost him over $15K in legal fees...

I don't know man...going off of this hypothetical situation....Sounds like a far stretch that an LE can tell a jury and judge he came to guys house to tell him to lower his radio and smelled a pot plant all the way in the guy's back yard.

Maybe this is why your buddy got off with just probation. Did he cut a deal? Bet if he did not, it would have eventually been dismissed. Most of the time, a DA will push you to see if he can get you to plea bargain knowing well in advance most people don't have the money or time to fight in court and that most likely the DA will lose anyways. It's all a numbers game.

stator
05-05-2006, 3:48 PM
Your basic Democrat pension-overfed cops at work. This wasn't even a big metro area, and the target was a retired cop.


Oh come on now, doesn't everyone in the private sector earn 3% pension eligibility for every year of service, capped at 90% of highest salary, and with early retirement to boot?

I would have never thought those in college getting their AA in criminal justice would end up being paid far more than me (lifetime compensation) with my MSCS. My business law class had those AA certificate seekers (I do not if it is correct to call it a major), and on average, they were the not-so-bright ones in class. Usually, the un-studious ones from my HS and the other local HS.

Oh well, who would have dthunk it that they would end up with $60K+ (and much higher for those achieving higher ranks on the force) annual pension for life and medical for life as well.

Shoot, we should stop picking on LEOs and go after the judges. Their retirement cap is 110% of their highest salary.... nothing like retiring into a salary promotion with free lifetime medical.

Apeman88
05-05-2006, 5:12 PM
Guy goes running into the bathroom upon seeing you at the front door? How do you know if he is trying to flush drugs or just had a bad burrito??:D



Haha.. that reminds me... my office got raided by the sheriffs a few years back (long story... don't ask... wasn't our fault) and one of the employee had to go REALLY bad (bad Chinese food) and the officer told him to hold it... they padded him down and asked him to sit out side on the curb, he repeated asked to go... they said no... after a hour of asking... they said fine and had an officer stand at the bathroom door with the door open (it's a bathroom with simply a toliet and sink) the employee asked if he can have some privacy and officer said no... he needs to watch him. So the employee took off him pants farted as he did his business... soon enough... he got his privacy.:eek:

Ken

Wild Bill
05-05-2006, 5:33 PM
Well about twenty years ago, I was awakened in the middle of the night to what sounded like someone trying to kick in my front door. Well I answered the door with a LOADED 44 MAG hammer back and ready to rock. Come to find out it was the local pd. The officers that were beating down my door thought that they heard someone screaming from my house, as they were driving by. Anyway to make a long story short they backed off real quick when the were looking down the business end of a S&W mod.29. They could not apologize enough for their mistake. And they did ask me if that was how I always answered the door. I said no only when someone is trying to kick it down in the middle of the night.:D

gh429
05-05-2006, 5:41 PM
I don't know man...going off of this hypothetical situation....Sounds like a far stretch that an LE can tell a jury and judge he came to guys house to tell him to lower his radio and smelled a pot plant all the way in the guy's back yard.

Maybe this is why your buddy got off with just probation. Did he cut a deal? Bet if he did not, it would have eventually been dismissed. Most of the time, a DA will push you to see if he can get you to plea bargain knowing well in advance most people don't have the money or time to fight in court and that most likely the DA will lose anyways. It's all a numbers game.

Yeah he did cut a deal (the plants were in the house upstairs apparently), but in these situations it is usually the officer's word against the suspects. And usually in these cases, the judge will rule in the officer's favor. It is very unlikely the evidence will be thrown out, and it is very unlikely the assistant DA will drop charges (My buddy's wife is assistant DA over in Stockton as it so happens). More than likely if it went to trial, he would have looked at some serious fines and jail time rather than a slap on the wrists. It is what it is because:

1. My friend did in fact violate the law
2. The cop did his job, he originally responded to an infraction, found a misdemeanor (originally a felony) and charged my friend for it.

It is what it is. My friend knew the law, understood the consequences, chose to play ball, and paid $15K for it. That's the criminal justic system in a nutshell which is more or less fair aside from the fact that if you don't have $15K (the lawyer he got actually was good friends with the DA) you might end up doing some jail time. I think it's pretty fair, I don't think anyone's rights got violated in this case...

DsF_Saint
05-05-2006, 6:10 PM
I wasn't aware this was a COP Bashing website... truthfully a lot of the posts in this thread (and some times forum) are by persons obviously not familiar with the law. Unfortunately, some of the posts are by persons familiar with only part of the law.

Some of you are giving out very bad information and very bad advice. Please post responsibly and if you are not an expert on the law, you should really consider stating it is your opinion. Some agencies have their SWAT guys in colateral field duties and can break down your door, a second after you deny them entry, if necessary. This would be entirely unsafe for both you and the police.

As far as the original story, it is only a one sided story. Let's condemn the police based on the story told to us by someone who obviously has bad feelings toward the police, at least based on some of some of his statements.

As for the guy that says the police were apologetic as they stared at the business end of his gun? I gotta call BS on that one... They would be apologetic to your widow.

Thanks for your time.

Jedi
05-05-2006, 7:19 PM
As I remember it (it has been 10+ years since I went through the academy), an officer must have probable cause to believe that:
a) A crime has been committed. (In this case, that was satisfied by the report of gun shots and a possible homicide.)
b) If they do not act immediately, the crime will continue or evidence will be destroyed. (A subject with a gun and blood on them CERTAINLY would qualify for this.)
c) An exception to b) is while perusing a fleeing subject. (Not the case here.)

That being said, there are limitations to the search. An officer can't come in looking for an elephant and search all of your bread boxes. The problem I have with the story is that the officers, once entering the home, seem to have been satisfied that the crime they were investigating did not occur (no corpus delicti or body of the crime). Yet they continued to search, including requesting that a small handgun safe be opened. This seems an unlikely place to hide a lady. The only think I can guess is that they were looking for a firearm that had been recently fired, but that would be a tough sell.

Matt C
05-05-2006, 7:57 PM
I wasn't aware this was a COP Bashing website
I am a cop.

Can'thavenuthingood
05-05-2006, 8:17 PM
Is there a second source or someone to verify this action actually took place?

I've done a google but nothing close comes up.

Heard anything other than this thread?

Vick

DsF_Saint
05-05-2006, 8:34 PM
DsF...you have no idea.
About what? The misfortunes of the uninformed

homerm14
05-05-2006, 8:48 PM
I love that people read one side of a story and are ready to take it as the truth. I usually find there are two sides to every story, and some where in the middle is the truth. Every night I work some one tries to tell me they know the law, which usually makes an *** out of them. There is a reason even criminal lawers don't represent themselves in a court of law. I'm not saying what the Officers did is right or wrong, because I was'nt there and have not been presented all of the facts.
In case you have'nt figured it out, I too am a cop so feel free to bash away I hear it every night.

DsF_Saint
05-05-2006, 9:06 PM
I'm not saying what the Officers did is right or wrong, because I was'nt there and have not been presented all of the facts.

I thought it was mighty peculiar, how this little tale jumped from officers searching the house for criminal activity, to how the poor broken down victim, was being evaluated for a 5150 (Things that make you go hmmmm).

Oh by the way, I am pretty sure there is a higher percentage of Republican Cops than Democrats. Lawyers and politicians are mostly democrats, at least in California..

Jeff Rambo
05-06-2006, 1:22 AM
These topics get old fast and go no where...