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pennstater
08-20-2010, 1:44 PM
New member here, and fairly new to handguns.
Is there a big difference between the two? Most of my shooting would be at the range or out in the desert, but still want to know about home defense loads[factory]. I currently shoot a Springfield 45ACP Mil-Spec. Love the 1911's!
Just looking for something a little lighter to shoot. Thanks guys.

pennstater
08-20-2010, 1:46 PM
Messed up the intro; 9mm vs 40SW

XYZ
08-20-2010, 1:51 PM
If you're looking for something lighter to shoot I would go with the 9mm between the two choices. It's just relatively less expensive.

mean72nova
08-20-2010, 1:52 PM
yes, another 9mm vs 40sw thread!

Colt-45
08-20-2010, 1:53 PM
yes, another 9mm vs 40sw thread!

9mm wins.......:43:

pennstater
08-20-2010, 1:54 PM
Like I said. I'm new to this game.
Just looking for some input.

mean72nova
08-20-2010, 1:57 PM
lol, 22 long rifle ftw!

ir0nclash86
08-20-2010, 1:59 PM
9mm, cheap to shoot and it gets the job done especially with todays hollow points.

OneSevenDeuce
08-20-2010, 2:01 PM
Two very different rounds. Looks like you use your pistols for a variety of reasons (range, desert, HD). If you want something lighter than a .45, 9mm would be the way to go. It still depends though, because you have to take into consideration how much recoil the gun is going to eat up.

Legasat
08-20-2010, 2:01 PM
9mm wins again.

orangeusa
08-20-2010, 2:03 PM
I like $%, but have ( also.

Hawkstp
08-20-2010, 2:04 PM
I would say 9mm. If you feel the need for a bigger caliber you already have the 45.

I switched from 40 to 9mm not to long ago and have never regretted it.

acolytes
08-20-2010, 2:06 PM
I like $%, but have ( also.

:rofl2:

The Sauce
08-20-2010, 2:08 PM
The elusive capital nine strikes again!

pennstater
08-20-2010, 2:11 PM
orangeusa; I knew that was going to get me! Oh well.

johnrunner89
08-20-2010, 2:17 PM
9mm has my vote. Alot cheaper to shoot and with todays SD ammo...If the threat isn't stopped by the 9mm projectile...I doubt the extra 1mm would of made a difference and stopped the threat it its track. Shot placement is key. Cheaper ammo, means more practice which leads to greater accuracy which helps with shot placement.

Fate
08-20-2010, 2:20 PM
orangeusa; I knew that was going to get me! Oh well.

seven ate nine too.

orangeusa
08-20-2010, 2:23 PM
+1 hahaha

OP - you can still fix it - go to first post, edit, advanced, and at top is title, you can edit that...

.

ir0nclash86
08-20-2010, 2:33 PM
I would say 9mm. If you feel the need for a bigger caliber you already have the 45.

I switched from 40 to 9mm not to long ago and have never regretted it.

Same here. I just sold my Sig p226 in 40 and picked up a Glock 17 in 9mm. I do not regret it at all! 9mm is 5 bucks cheaper than 40 at walmart. I buy mine in bulk so 5 dollars per box makes a big difference. I don't feel guilty when I go to the range to practice and blow some ammo. With my Glock 17, low recoil + faster recovery time = more bullets in target. I'm a happy camper.

THEDUELLIST
08-20-2010, 3:18 PM
Since you have a 45 I would go with the 9. I prefer a 40 (which I have) though. I'm looking to get a 9 in a sub/compact in a polymer frame as a side for hunting.

I just wonder if Beretta will get the new PX4s to conform eventually.

gorenut
08-20-2010, 3:28 PM
You should do a search, there are already threads that go on for a dozen pages with debates between the two. There are biased opinions on both fronts, but with high quality hollow points, either will serve you well. I personally own guns in both calibers - I have no real preference. It comes down to this: range time, 9 is cheaper but 40 is more abundant (at least around here). I'm not the type to just stick with 1 kind of caliber, I figure if there is a shortage of one caliber, I have another to fall back on.

Günter
08-20-2010, 3:32 PM
Most Calgunners seem to prefer the 9mm or the 45. The .40 S&W is an impressive cartridge (similar stopping power to the .45 but less expensive and almost as cheap as a 9mm). However they are still relatively new, and many dislike the "snappy" recoil on many models (mainly due to the fact that many .40 S&W pistols are using modified existing 9mm design pistols, using the same size frame/slide, most .45 pistols on the other hand are using heavier frame/slide designed for its caliber, thus less felt “snap”), there are exceptions to this however. Another advantage of the .40 is that it can be converted into a 9mm, or a .357 SIG with little modifications.

Super Spy
08-20-2010, 3:57 PM
Buy a 10mm then :P

Seriously if you want to buy something to shoot get a 9mm as it's cheaper and has less recoil. If your looking for a defensive gun the .40 will do a more convincing job, there must be a reason almost all US LE switched from 9mm to .40 and in some cases .45

LE in the rest of the world still mostly use 9mm.

I like the .45, puts nice big holes in things.

Chief-7700
08-20-2010, 4:09 PM
Since you already have a .45ACP why not just reload some powder puff loads?

The Sauce
08-20-2010, 4:16 PM
I moved up from 9mm to 10mm.

I also plan on moving up from .45acp to .46acp.

Just sayin'...

lawaia
08-20-2010, 5:52 PM
:yawn: :sleeping:

tbhracing
08-20-2010, 8:50 PM
9mm for the win!

bohoki
08-20-2010, 9:03 PM
i figure the 40 is a great gun if it is your only pistol

my first pistol was a 9mm then i got a 1911 45 to me that is enough to reload for

although i am constantly picking up 40 brass along with 9 and 45

then there is the wheelgun dilemma .357 .44

pennstater
08-20-2010, 9:38 PM
Went and handled a couple of 9's this afternoon.
Sig pro 2022 and Ruger SR9. Both feel pretty good. Kinda like the SR9's handle, being a bit longer and slimmer all around. Probably wind up with a 9mm.

tbhracing
08-20-2010, 10:51 PM
When you want to rule the world- 9mm.

pyro3k2
08-20-2010, 10:53 PM
in the war between the 9mm and the 40sw there is a clear winner and yup you guessed it. the .45acp

Red Devil
08-20-2010, 11:00 PM
You have and shoot a 1911.

What you want is a Colt Officers .45 ACP, ...and you don't really want to shoot one. (trust me)

So...

.40 S&W Glock 23 with 180 gr. HST or Gold-dot subsonics...

(Why get a 9mm moped...? :D )

Wherryj
08-21-2010, 12:01 PM
Buy a 10mm then :P

Seriously if you want to buy something to shoot get a 9mm as it's cheaper and has less recoil. If your looking for a defensive gun the .40 will do a more convincing job, there must be a reason almost all US LE switched from 9mm to .40 and in some cases .45

LE in the rest of the world still mostly use 9mm.

I like the .45, puts nice big holes in things.

I've read that the primary reason was the hatchet job that the FBI did on the .45 when it wanted a new handgun. They pushed pretty hard on the 10mm, but found that agents didn't like the recoil and that those with smaller hands didn't like the larger grip.

The "short 10" ended up being the compromise, although given ballistics, everything that I've ever seen puts the 9mm, .40 smith and .45 so close that it's hard to tell the difference.

However, law enforcement agencies tend to listen to groups like the FBI. The discrediting of the .45 (we want something else) and the 9mm (that's already so cliche-we want something different) made the 10mm the only real option. However it turned out not to be the popular option, thus they worshiped the .40-a round virtually indistinguishable from the .45 they had or the 9mm that was abundantly available.

Either will be a good firearm. Your choice depends upon what you like, how abundant and how expensive it is. If you really want a round that is different, go with this poster's suggestion and get a 10mm.

RobG
08-21-2010, 12:19 PM
in the war between the 9mm and the 40sw there is a clear winner and yup you guessed it. the .45acp

+1:D

I will take .45, then .40, then 9mm in that order. To put it as simply as possible, I want what's going to make the biggest hole. There must be some reason that ammo makers try to hotrod the sh*t out of the 9mm.

jdg30
08-21-2010, 12:34 PM
I went through the same 9mm/.40 debate a while back and have since grown to like 9mm more. I like that it is the least expensive to shoot, easy to handle recoil with and is pleasant to shoot.

I have a .40 pistol and while recoil is not too hard to handle, to me it is just not as pleasant to shoot as 9mm or .45. It seems to take more effort to keep it on target consistently and also has more "snap" than the others. Shooting it is fun but overall seems more stressful to shoot than 9mm or .45. I like the easy recoil of the 9mm and the smooth recoil of the .45.

I will not get rid of my .40 pistol, but I choose to shoot the others more often because I like them more than .40.

Greg-Dawg
08-21-2010, 12:39 PM
9mm is a sissy round. .40 is a MAN's round.

gzinga
08-21-2010, 12:55 PM
I just got a M9A1 and i love it.....I have been shooting 357 and 44 for a while and I love the heavy bullets... but being european there is something to be said about the good old 9mm.

get a 9mm and then get a 40sm...then get a 357 sig and you will have them all :)

tbhracing
08-21-2010, 1:02 PM
I like (mm. Then again, I dont need to compensate for anything personal.

Air
08-21-2010, 1:07 PM
in the war between the 9mm and the 40sw there is a clear winner and yup you guessed it. the .45acp

LOL. Agreed.

Between 9mm and .40sw, I'd go with 9mm. 40 was a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

rromeo
08-21-2010, 1:17 PM
357 Sig is like the worst of both worlds. You get diminished magazine capacity and higher price of a 40, plus you get the small projectile of a 9mm.
Of course, I prefer {mm.

tbhracing
08-21-2010, 1:20 PM
^^^ I want to hug the dog in that avatar.

Lead-Thrower
08-21-2010, 1:24 PM
Wow, I seem to be in the minority here. I prefer .40 myself. The primary reason for this is I can actually find ammo. :p Get a 9mm or .45 and good luck finding more than a box or two on any given shelf...

OneSevenDeuce
08-21-2010, 1:25 PM
I never have any problems finding 9mm or .45

BigDogatPlay
08-21-2010, 1:42 PM
I am a big believer in the efficacy of .40 S&W as a defensive / fighting round. As a LEO over the years I went from wheelguns to S&W autos in 9 to 1911 and later S&W autos in .45 and finally to a Sig P226 in .40. I like where I ended up and would still reach for that Sig in a pinch ahead of most of the others.

That said, the OP has a .45 that he likes and if all he wants to do is shoot more, for less, then the 9 becomes the obvious choice and properly loaded it's still an excellent choice for a fighting caliber if you are forced to that.

saki302
08-21-2010, 1:46 PM
I wouldn't feel under armed with either. 9mm will be more fun to shoot because of reduced recoil and price, but with the good loads (+P+), recoil is only slightly less than .40.

-Dave

tbhracing
08-21-2010, 1:53 PM
Wow, I seem to be in the minority here. I prefer .40 myself. The primary reason for this is I can actually find ammo. :p Get a 9mm or .45 and good luck finding more than a box or two on any given shelf...

Trust me, I have enough 9mm to last me the rest of my life. I bought out River City Guns of PMC 9mm 3 years ago at $6.99 a box. I am the 9mm King on my block!

picasso
08-21-2010, 2:25 PM
With Cali 10 rds restriction, 40 is the way to go. Hi-velo on a bigger package.

SMOKEYMOUNTAIN
08-21-2010, 2:38 PM
With Cali 10 rds restriction, 40 is the way to go. Hi-velo on a bigger package.

Agreed. To me the price difference between 9mm and .40 is like the difference between 87 Octane and 91 Octane. You got to pay to play.

RobG
08-21-2010, 2:49 PM
9mm and .40 is a sissy round. .45 is a MAN's round.

I fixed your mistakes:p


With Cali 10 rds restriction, 40 is the way to go. Hi-velo on a bigger package.

Same here. 11 rounds of .40 over 11 rounds of 9mm BUT, I'll take 9 rounds of .45 before either of them.

orangeusa
08-21-2010, 2:52 PM
Fortay doesn't sound as cool as Forty-Five.

But, for me 9mm is a great round. This stopping power only makes sense if you have to shoot bad guys once a week.

So I work on accuracy. And calibre be damned.

Why do we always fall for these stupid calibre wars?? haha

So - what happened on the 'I have dead people buried in my yard?' thread?

RobG
08-21-2010, 2:54 PM
Fortay doesn't sound as cool as Forty-Five.

But, for me 9mm is a great round. This stopping power only makes sense if you have to shoot bad guys once a week.

So I work on accuracy. And calibre be damned.

Why do we always fall for these stupid calibre wars?? haha

So - what happened on the 'I have dead people buried in my yard?' thread?

Because "you guys" won't admit .45 is the best round of all time!:p

OneSevenDeuce
08-21-2010, 2:54 PM
Why do we always fall for these stupid calibre wars??

The sad thing is that the OP actually had some valid reasons for asking the question, like felt recoil, and cost. But of course, SOMEONE is going to chime in with what is a more "effective" round, or what has more "stopping power".

orangeusa
08-21-2010, 3:01 PM
And I fall for it every time. And I even have the OSS (One Shot Stop) stats, which nullify caliber difference between 9/.40/.45 (unless you use an expanding round, you're wasting your time).

But nobody reads it, so won't post it.

OneSevenDeuce
08-21-2010, 3:03 PM
And I fall for it every time. And I even have the OSS (One Shot Stop) stats, which nullify caliber difference between 9/.40/.45 (unless you use an expanding round, you're wasting your time).

But nobody reads it, so won't post it.

It's like steeling cable (can you even do that anymore?). You know you shouldn't get involved, but there is just so much to watch.

elSquid
08-21-2010, 3:15 PM
And I fall for it every time. And I even have the OSS (One Shot Stop) stats, which nullify caliber difference between 9/.40/.45 (unless you use an expanding round, you're wasting your time).

But nobody reads it, so won't post it.

Well, if you're going to post Marshall&Sanow, I guarantee that this thread will go 500 posts.

;)

-- Michael

shortround1
08-21-2010, 4:47 PM
With Cali 10 rds restriction, 40 is the way to go. Hi-velo on a bigger package.

Probably more energy on impact with the .40 but doesn't 9mm have higher velocity still?

pennstater
08-21-2010, 8:47 PM
Ok; pretty much settled on the 9mm. Mostly for some of the reasons above and the fact that my wife would like to learn to shoot. The Sig Pro 2022 is the ticket I'm thinking since I can get it at a very good price.
Now; opinions on home defense ammo[just curious]
I'd like to think I have 45acp ammo covered, range and HD.
Thanks all for advice and replys, much appreciated.

RobG
08-21-2010, 8:58 PM
Ok; pretty much settled on the 9mm. Mostly for some of the reasons above and the fact that my wife would like to learn to shoot. The Sig Pro 2022 is the ticket I'm thinking since I can get it at a very good price.
Now; opinions on home defense ammo[just curious]
I'd like to think I have 45acp ammo covered, range and HD.
Thanks all for advice and replys, much appreciated.

Whatever premium defense ammo that shoots well from your gun will work. Gold Dots, Federal HST, Cor-Bon, etc.

jptsr1
08-21-2010, 9:02 PM
357 Sig is like the worst of both worlds. You get diminished magazine capacity and higher price of a 40, plus you get the small projectile of a 9mm.
Of course, I prefer {mm.

and good luck finding .357sig ammo to shoot.

pennstater
08-21-2010, 9:14 PM
Yeah, was thinking Gold Dots are pretty solid, good reviews.
Thanks

jptsr1
08-21-2010, 9:22 PM
Yeah, was thinking Gold Dots are pretty solid, good reviews.
Thanks

oh you'll have various defensive rounds to choose from, its practice ammo thats hard to find.

picasso
08-21-2010, 11:44 PM
Probably more energy on impact with the .40 but doesn't 9mm have higher velocity still?

Very little. But the 40's energy is tremendous. Here's a comparison. The 40 is still desirable even compared to +P.
http://www.remington.com/comparison.aspx

I checked Buffalo Bore. The 40 has the same velocity even with the +P+ 9mm. So in California 40 is FTW considering the 10 rds rule.

Off topic: Comparison for 9mm +P, 40S&W, 357 magnum and 45ACP +P,
http://www.remington.com/comparison.aspx
357 magnum wins, hands down.

BigDaddyGuns
08-22-2010, 12:57 AM
New member here, and fairly new to handguns.
Is there a big difference between the two? Most of my shooting would be at the range or out in the desert, but still want to know about home defense loads[factory]. I currently shoot a Springfield 45ACP Mil-Spec. Love the 1911's!
Just looking for something a little lighter to shoot. Thanks guys.

Get the 9 it's cheaper to shoot. You'll be rewarded with either caliber cause you're out there shooting and enjoying the sport.

Just keep the 1911 under the pillow.

9 to shoot paper.
45 to shoot intruders.

ALSystems
08-22-2010, 1:40 AM
I don't think you're going big enough. For really big holes, this is what you need: :rolleyes:
http://www.ntsystemscal.com/download/other/50snubnose.jpg
some[/I] reason that ammo makers try to hotrod the sh*t out of the 9mm.

Cato
08-22-2010, 1:47 AM
Difference in performance (as in killing ability)? Nothing really.

There is a difference in ease to shoot. The 9mm is easier to shoot: less recoil and lighter bullets. Guns can hold more 9mm rounds too.

klmmicro
08-22-2010, 10:11 AM
Pennstater,

Why wouldn't you just stick you what you already have for defense. Neither the 9mm or .40 SW will give you anything that your .45 does not already have, except maybe a couple of extra rounds. Magazines here in Cal are limited to 10 rounds regardless, so the 9mm gives you nothing extra there. The .40 delivers almost identical energy as the .45, so no plus given there.

If anything, consider reloading to save a little money on your range ammo. You can get a decent press and everything required for less than the price of even a used pistol in either caliber. You can then build a load that is light for punching paper and knocking through cans. Stock up on a couple of high end magazines loaded with premium defensive .45ACP with the savings.

rromeo
08-22-2010, 11:07 AM
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m145/The_Shootist/10mmOneShotOnePlanet.jpg

shortround1
08-22-2010, 11:23 AM
Very little. But the 40's energy is tremendous. Here's a comparison. The 40 is still desirable even compared to +P.
http://www.remington.com/comparison.aspx

I checked Buffalo Bore. The 40 has the same velocity even with the +P+ 9mm. So in California 40 is FTW considering the 10 rds rule.

Off topic: Comparison for 9mm +P, 40S&W, 357 magnum and 45ACP +P,
http://www.remington.com/comparison.aspx
357 magnum wins, hands down.

Oh I agree. .40 is good stuff.

rideanddive
08-22-2010, 11:53 AM
I'm buying a Glock 23 in 40 S&W. I'll buy a drop in 9mm barrel and mags. I might even get a drop in 357 Sig barrel. I noticed that 40 was easier to find than 9 during the height of the ammo shortage. I'll use the 9 for practice

OneSevenDeuce
08-22-2010, 11:56 AM
I'm buying a Glock 23 in 40 S&W. I'll buy a drop in 9mm barrel and mags. I might even get a drop in 357 Sig barrel. I noticed that 40 was easier to find than 9 during the height of the ammo shortage. I'll use the 9 for practice

I've heard some people have extraction issues when they fire 9mm out of a Glock 40 S&W. Just something to keep in mind.

jptsr1
08-22-2010, 11:58 AM
I'm buying a Glock 23 in 40 S&W. I'll buy a drop in 9mm barrel and mags. I might even get a drop in 357 Sig barrel. I noticed that 40 was easier to find than 9 during the height of the ammo shortage. I'll use the 9 for practice

definitely the case. thats why i bought my 229. i'm not even a big 40cal fan but it was the only stuff that was consistently on the shelves during the drought. now that the "driest" season appears to be over my sig rarely ever gets out.

Dhena81
08-22-2010, 12:47 PM
Go 9mm if you already have a .45 then buy the .40 then a 10mm then a .44 mag then a 357 and then buy more .45's.

CarlozRossi
08-22-2010, 3:35 PM
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m145/The_Shootist/10mmOneShotOnePlanet.jpg

LMAO!!!

10mm>>>

If only more people would start appreciating and using this round more, then finally we can see the price per round come down and put an end to this caliber war.

rideanddive
08-22-2010, 3:48 PM
I've heard some people have extraction issues when they fire 9mm out of a Glock 40 S&W. Just something to keep in mind.

Yeah, thanks, I've heard that mentioned also. If it's just for practice I don't think it's too much of a problem. Wouldn't want to rely on it in a pinch, that's what the 40 is for

Superbri
08-22-2010, 3:52 PM
.40

orangeusa
08-22-2010, 3:57 PM
Well, if you're going to post Marshall&Sanow, I guarantee that this thread will go 500 posts.

;)

-- Michael

Gauntlet has been tossed. My spreadsheet is almost unreadable, so maybe 20 more posts... :)

Yes this is from Marshal and Sanow, but I pulled into a spreadsheet and sorted.
http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss16/orangeusa/Incap.jpg

Masterdebater
08-22-2010, 4:06 PM
he already has a .45 so the next person who votes .45 im gonna slap u through ur computer screen with baby powder on my palms like a pimp daddy :94: :tt2:.

since ur just going to shoot it get the 9 as its cheaper and fun as hell to shoot plain and simple. u wont regret it in any way.

pennstater
08-22-2010, 4:49 PM
klmmicro,

I have an RCBS RC press for all my rifle loading, so I'm good there. Just starting to get interested in handguns.
What you said regarding handloading the 45 makes sense.
Still kicking around different ideas for all this.

picasso
08-22-2010, 5:10 PM
WoW! Even a tooth can stop a 9mm bullet....
http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/teeth.asp

inbox485
08-22-2010, 5:19 PM
9mm is a sissy round. .40 is a MAN's round.

By definition 9mm is a war round, and .40S&W is a sissy round for the agents who couldn't handle 10mm. Just poking fun at you.

For the OP there is a world of difference between the two. The pressure profiles are pretty different. Some .40 actually have the potential of causing a brain hemorrhage from a chest wound. Usually that is reserved for rifle rounds. I'm solidly in the "as long as I only get 10 rounds in CA, they better be the 10 biggest that will fit in a handgun" camp. So I'd lean towards the .40. It is also more fun to shoot IMO. 9mm's general claim to fame is that it is good enough, not much worse than any other carry calibers, the ammo is a bit cheaper, and you can fit a lot more into a gun.

jakemccoy
08-22-2010, 5:39 PM
My vote is for .40 cal because it's a better round. (I'm sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings.) I needed to point that out because I didn't see anybody admit it here. :cool:

I never see any convincing arguments of how 9 mm is a better round, because it's not. The advantages related to 9 mm are less expense and slightly more capacity.

A question to people who say 9mm has less recoil, have you actually compared a normal 9 mm round to a normal .40 cal round on similar guns? For example, compare the Glock 19 to the Glock 23 using normal loads. I feel little or no difference in recoil. I do admit that everybody feels recoil differently.

pennstater
08-22-2010, 6:05 PM
jakemccoy: if I go with the 9mm, it will be because my wife can shoot it, and I can shoot it cheaper than the 40 SW. Nothing against the 40, just cheaper ammo, and no way my wife is shooting the 45; to big for her.
Not to mention I'll have a blast shooting the crap out of a 9mm![or my 45, or any of my rifles!]

pennstater
08-22-2010, 6:16 PM
Whoever fixed my first post mess-up: THANK YOU!

bshnt2015
08-22-2010, 6:36 PM
I have seen all 3 calibers work as designed. They are pistol rounds and the deceased were hit multiple times, I believe the deceased didn't really care what caliber was being used but as the deceased was running away, the rounds caught up and did it's job.

From a defensive carry point of view, carry the gun/caliber you're capable of shooting effectively-putting the rounds/hits where they will stop the other party. My personal preference is a good JHP in any of the caliber, if I were to pick one, a Glock 26 9mm with 2 10 rd mags will protect me. Be safe all.

Vectrexer
08-22-2010, 6:45 PM
Since were stuck in Ca I go with the 40 Call. Nice blast, good for defense. Which satisfies for home and range as well as target and simple fun.

If I were living in a free state then volume of accuracy would make the 9 mm the CCW pistol.

But why argue? Buy both and enjoy like I did. Buy a 22 for truly low cost range practice too. Try to stay within the same profile and weight as your defense pistol.

elSquid
08-22-2010, 6:46 PM
Gauntlet has been tossed. My spreadsheet is almost unreadable, so maybe 20 more posts... :)

Yes this is from Marshal and Sanow, but I pulled into a spreadsheet and sorted.

So what do the OSS numbers imply? If a load has a corresponding value of 90%, what exactly does that mean?

(and we're off! ;) )

-- Michael

orangeusa
08-22-2010, 6:59 PM
The Poss (Probability of one shot stop) is the 2nd from the right column in my unreadable table.

So like a .846 is 84.6% probability of one shot stop as a function of round. This is GOOD data, but the only thing it does NOT include is probability of hit with a certain round. (Sorry, but I worked in Tank ballistics for a few years).

Bottom line - this is if you can hit a person in a vital spot, this is the probability of a stop. Stop = incapacitation.

The cool thing that clearly comes out of this is that - if expanding ammo, you have from 84-89% probability of one shot stop - 9mm/.40/.45 pistola rounds.

Then scroll down - until you hit OSS for FMJ, 63-67% at best.

So, you guys better forget your pre-concieved ideas about 9mm/.40/.45 cal, and think about ammo selection and shot placement!!!

Stunning conclusion, huh?

elSquid
08-22-2010, 7:47 PM
The Poss (Probability of one shot stop) is the 2nd from the right column in my unreadable table.

So like a .846 is 84.6% probability of one shot stop as a function of round. This is GOOD data, but the only thing it does NOT include is probability of hit with a certain round. (Sorry, but I worked in Tank ballistics for a few years).

Bottom line - this is if you can hit a person in a vital spot, this is the probability of a stop. Stop = incapacitation.

That's actually not what the number says.

Marshall's methodology was to take shooting results where there was only a single hit to the torso. Shots that hit the head, neck, arms or legs were discarded. Multiple torso hits were discarded.

Multiple hits being discarded is a big thing. It basically excludes the data that we really are interested in - failures to stop with a single shot.

For example, take the following "real life" shooting results for the .43Mythical, 213 gr JHP:

a) single hit, assailant stopped.
b) single hit, assailant not stopped.
c) 4 hits, assailant stopped
d) 3 hits, assailant not stopped
e) single hit, assailant stopped
f) 2 hits, assailant stopped
g) single hit, assailant stopped
h) 2 hits, assailant not stopped.
i) 6 hits, assailant not stopped
j) single hit, assailant stopped.

Marshall would exclude c,d,f,h, and i. Basically half the data.

Scenarios a,b,e,g and j would result in a OSS of 80%. 4 in 5.

But does the round really behave that way? The first shots in c,d,f,h and i didn't result in a one shot stop; in fact, if we factor them back in the 'true OSS' for a first round torso hit is 4 in 10, or 40%.

Now that's a contrived example, but it illustrates the inherent bias in the stats: times when the first bullet fails to incapacitate and multiple shots ensue. What are the real numbers? We don't know, as that important data has been excluded.

What the number really means: if you throw away all the times that multiple hits were required, it's the probability of an "one-shot-stop". :eek:

-- Michael

bshnt2015
08-22-2010, 8:02 PM
Some 9mm I have used and still use.

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Glock/9mm002.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/Glock/9mm006.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/gen4%20Glock%2022/LaurensCastle004.jpg

A Glock 26 9mm ready to go.

orangeusa
08-22-2010, 8:13 PM
Ohh, I didn't say it was perfect or near that. Just the most scientific data I've seen.

BTW - we may make 20+ posts this way!!

This is a 4-5 year old summary (re-calc) of the 'goat shooting' data from 1984?? data. And they added wound shock and bleeding information to that data to get the OSS %.

And now I'm adding fud, w/o the links. I did research this study, and at the time - about a year ago, it seemed to be fair wrt consistancy of collection and somewhat realworld scenario. The same criterion was used for all data points.

And I pointed out the biggest weakness of all, that shot placement is not a part of this. It was based on shooting live goats at a short range.

Not saying this is the end all - be all of studies, but it's a decent, unbiased test...

Let me find the links to back up this fud I'm spreading here!! :)

.

elSquid
08-22-2010, 8:24 PM
And I pointed out the biggest weakness of all, that shot placement is not a part of this. It was based on shooting live goats at a short range.

Not saying this is the end all - be all of studies, but it's a decent, unbiased test...

Let me find the links to back up this fud I'm spreading here!! :)


You're looking for the "strasbourg goat test".

I can wait. ;)

-- Michael

PEZHEAD265
08-22-2010, 8:36 PM
I was talking to a SWAT team member during Nat. Night Out and he said they switched to the 40 because the 9 didn't have enough meat on it and it didn't have the penertration.He also said that he seen the 9mm deflect off a windsheild of a car.The 40 is a better cal but since you have a 45 the 9mm will make a good addition to your collection.The 9mm ammo is cheaper and it is heavy enough for most HD situations.

OneSevenDeuce
08-22-2010, 8:38 PM
To be fair, 5.56 will bounce off a windshield at the right angle. A lot of rounds will.

Oceanbob
08-22-2010, 9:04 PM
The 10mm is very flexible and powerful. And somewhat costly...however, you can get a .40 barrel for it (same exact diameter, a .40 is really a 10mm short)
and shoot all day for less money. Get into reloading for .45, 10mm and .40. The 10 and 40 use the same dies. I love shooting my 10mm. And when I want to save $ I switch the barrel out in about 10 seconds. (same Magazine)

You must prepare for the coming of the ZOMBIEs and the GLOCK 20 will take care of that problem..!

:43:

http://i36.tinypic.com/30wxdle.jpg

kakinuma-kun
08-22-2010, 9:59 PM
Since were stuck in Ca I go with the 40 Call. Nice blast, good for defense. Which satisfies for home and range as well as target and simple fun.

If I were living in a free state then volume of accuracy would make the 9 mm the CCW pistol.

But why argue? Buy both and enjoy like I did. Buy a 22 for truly low cost range practice too. Try to stay within the same profile and weight as your defense pistol.


I agree that the best way to have cheap plinking fun with a 1911 is to get a .22 LR conversion kit.

Then take your time enjoying lots of inexpensive shooting while you decide if you really need anything other than a .45 ACP.


S

Katana
08-22-2010, 11:24 PM
I was talking to a SWAT team member during Nat. Night Out and he said they switched to the 40 because the 9 didn't have enough meat on it and it didn't have the penertration.He also said that he seen the 9mm deflect off a windsheild of a car.

To be fair, 5.56 will bounce off a windshield at the right angle. A lot of rounds will.

Heavier bullets tend to penetrate windshields better than fast, light bullets.

a1c
08-22-2010, 11:32 PM
This could go on forever. It usually does.

Just do like some of us, and shoot both.

fullspeed1
08-22-2010, 11:42 PM
The 10mm is very flexible and powerful. And somewhat costly...however, you can get a .40 barrel for it (same exact diameter, a .40 is really a 10mm short)
and shoot all day for less money. Get into reloading for .45, 10mm and .40. The 10 and 40 use the same dies. I love shooting my 10mm. And when I want to save $ I switch the barrel out in about 10 seconds. (same Magazine)

You must prepare for the coming of the ZOMBIEs and the GLOCK 20 will take care of that problem..!

:43:

http://i36.tinypic.com/30wxdle.jpg

So will a 12ga...

fsx
08-23-2010, 12:08 AM
Buy both and shoot them with a big smile on your face would be the best outcome.
That's my plann as of now. Buy 9mm/40/45cal and have fun with them.

Anchors
08-23-2010, 1:18 AM
Get them both, you'll shoot the 9mm more since ammo is cheapest and readily available (for now).
I really want a 10mm, but there's no way I'd ever be able to afford to shoot it.

norcal.xd
08-23-2010, 6:41 AM
+1 on 9mm............. i love my 9's

OneSevenDeuce
08-23-2010, 7:37 AM
Heavier bullets tend to penetrate windshields better than fast, light bullets.

I don't think you are understanding the point I was trying to make. :rolleyes:

PEZHEAD265
08-23-2010, 9:26 AM
I don't think you are understanding the point I was trying to make. :rolleyes:

What is the point??5.56 like the 9mm is a fast light bullet and like many other light fast bullets will deflect off a windsheild.

brianm767
08-23-2010, 9:39 AM
IF you just want to play around and shoot, go with a 9mm, if you use the gun for self defense, go with a .40. .45 or 10mm

I'm no expert, just repeating what I've read and been told.

Like already mentioned, there's a reason most PD's and SO's departments have switched from .38's or 9MM to .40 cal, or bigger and yes it started with several gun fights (one being the FBI shoot out with Michael Platt and William Matix) where the lighter cartridges did not stop a bad guy in his tracks, my father is a retired CHP capt, he's told me about numerous occasions where some one would be shot with either a .38 by a CHP officer or a 9MM by a PD officer and they were still able to return fire, they may have been mortally wounded, but between the time they were shot and the time they finally became incapacitated, they still had the ability to fire and still kill an officer, so it's not just a question of will a 9mm kill some one, of course it will, heck a .22 can kill you, but it's more about incapacitating some one with a single hit instantly.

Many dept's have performed test and found that the .40 causes so much shock and damage to a person, they normal are stopped in their tracks and can no longer fight when struck in center mass, which may not be the case if the hit was from a 9mm.

So I don't see how any one can compare a 9mm to a .40, 10mm or .45 when it comes to stopping power, it just doesn't.

Buttt if your not using the gun for self defense, then by all means, go with a 9mm, heck, that's why I want to get a nice .22 hand gun , I cant hardly afford to shoot any thing I own.

interesting read on FBI shoot out. Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

OneSevenDeuce
08-23-2010, 11:50 AM
What is the point??5.56 like the 9mm is a fast light bullet and like many other light fast bullets will deflect off a windsheild.

The point is that a lot of bullets will bounce off a windshield. Not just 9mm, not just 5.56, not just .308, but a LOT. To say that someone saw 9mm rounds bounce off a windshield and use as some sort of anecdotal evidence as to the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of a particular round is bunk.

orangeusa
08-23-2010, 1:45 PM
You're looking for the "strasbourg goat test".

I can wait. ;)

-- Michael

It a manipulation of the strausbourg test data. My point being it's the best data I know of. Not even close to saying it's perfect, but I think it does show expanding bullet vs. FMJ quite nicely and is not based on simulation...

As to your contrived example (not a bad idea by the way), this is based on close shooting of a goat. How in heck are they going to MISS?
Are we talking about the same dataset? But - you'd think there was newer and better data out there... Has to be.

Your turn!! :)

hefedehefe
08-23-2010, 1:54 PM
I would say 9mm. If you feel the need for a bigger caliber you already have the 45.

I switched from 40 to 9mm not to long ago and have never regretted it.

Why did you switch?

hefedehefe
08-23-2010, 2:17 PM
.40 all the way. I have an XD40 and Before I bought it, I went to my gun range and rented both XD9 and XD40. I shot them side by side and couldnt tell the difference in recoil. However. If you already have a .45 then you might as well get a 9mm. I got the XD.40 as my all around go to gun. It's my work horse all in one. I just bought a 9mm "fun gun". I picked up a Masterpiece Arms mini mac 10 :) and thinking about getting a .45 MAC 10 too, since I dont already have a .45. I really dont need a 9mm or a .45 since I got the .40 that is the best of both worlds

elSquid
08-23-2010, 2:27 PM
It a manipulation of the strausbourg test data. My point being it's the best data I know of. Not even close to saying it's perfect, but I think it does show expanding bullet vs. FMJ quite nicely and is not based on simulation...

I think the problem is that people talk of Marshall's numbers as being scientifically derived, and they are not.

I believe that the example I gave previously certainly shows that there is no question that the OSS percentages are skewed upwards by the exclusion of single shot failures to stop that result in a multiple hit incident. This is by no means the only criticism of Marshall's results; it's just the example I like since it's very clear to explain and it clearly invalidates the percentages.

I think many people are comforted by being able to look at a column of percentages, select the 'best one', and walk away secure in the knowledge that they have chosen wisely. But isn't this nothing more than a false hope, if the numbers can't be relied upon?

-- Michael

orangeusa
08-23-2010, 3:13 PM
Sanow and Marshal used Strausburg goat tests and real world data from Police(?) stats. The real world data is the one that you are discussing, and it's full of holes, so to speak.. :)

I understand, garbage in, garbage out. But there has to be some better data.... And yes, it's statistics and ignores probability of hit. But good grief, they shot goats at short range, how can there be leg hits? (you are probably talking about the real world data above).

"The Strasbourg Tests [STR93] studied handgun bullet effectiveness in goats by shooting the animals broadside
through the center of the chest and recording the time to incapacitation (falling down). The published data
includes incapacitation times from shooting 580 goats with 116 different handgun loads."

Wait, wait, - I got that spreadsheet data from M. Courtney's writeup of summary of criticisms of Sanow and Marshal data. The table I used was lifted from their work, and sorted in excel.

Intro to Courtney and his wife's work
http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/mwccv.pdf

Intro to their criticism of Sanow and Marshal.
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701268.pdf

This is the one. I still think it's pretty good work and has the data I presented in the spreadsheet.
Basically, it sounds like they took the raw strasberg data, added pressure wave estimates and calculated their own OSS from that
http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701267.pdf

So you disagree with the results showing expanding bullet vs. FMJ being a larger contributor than calibre? That was my only point.

(Just wrt the 3 that most handgunners argue about?)

ilikeguns
08-23-2010, 3:17 PM
40 is better. I prefer 9. $, capacity and recoil all play a part. Shot 40 for a while, and hated it.
I can afford to shoot more 9mm and the reduction in recoil is nice.

Im no softy on recoil. I will be owning a 357 mag soon and own a 300wsm and soon a 30-06. In a handgun autoloader I just prefer something quicker and with more capacity.

Nick1236
08-23-2010, 3:19 PM
40 is better. I prefer 9. $, capacity and recoil all play a part. Shot 40 for a while, and hated it.
I can afford to shoot more 9mm and the reduction in recoil is nice.

Im no softy on recoil. I will be owning a 357 mag soon and own a 300wsm and soon a 30-06. In a handgun autoloader I just prefer something quicker and with more capacity.

More capacity only applies if you have pre-ban mags. If no pre-ban mags are available, then both are equal at 10rnds per mag MAX.

inbox485
08-23-2010, 3:46 PM
More capacity only applies if you have pre-ban mags. If no pre-ban mags are available, then both are equal at 10rnds per mag MAX.

+1 The difference between 9mm, .40, and .45 is more in the mind of the shooter than anything. I can just barely tell the difference in recoil when shooting them. They overlap in terminal results and fall largely in the same spectrum of efficacy. They are all crappy excuses for man stoppers. But the incremental differences do exist, and if I only get 10, I'll take 10 from the upper end of the "crappy excuse for man stoppers" spectrum rather than the lower end.

The other huge advantage to .40 (over both 9mm and .45) is availability. I'm not sure why, but strait through the Obama ammo shortage, .40 was relatively available. Sometimes the shelves were wiped bare, but if any of the three were there, it was .40. It was the last to disappear and the first to come back regularly.

Wherryj
08-23-2010, 3:52 PM
Agreed. To me the price difference between 9mm and .40 is like the difference between 87 Octane and 91 Octane. You got to pay to play.

Octane has nothing to do with energy content. It is the resistance to pre-ignition. If your engine isn't designed for a gas with octane above 87, you will see NO more performance.

elSquid
08-23-2010, 4:00 PM
Sanow and Marshal used Strausburg goat tests and real world data from Police(?) stats. The real world data is the one that you are discussing, and it's full of holes, so to speak.. :)

I understand, garbage in, garbage out. But there has to be some better data....

There isn't. The number of variables in a shooting is pretty large, and nobody has a good handle on definitive "real world" results.



Wait, wait, - I got that spreadsheet data from M. Courtney's writeup of summary of criticisms of Sanow and Marshal data. The table I used was lifted from their work, and sorted in excel.

Intro to Courtney and his wife's work
http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/mwccv.pdf


Courtney has a bit of a reputation:

http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-39322.html

His pet theory is the "ballistic pressure wave". He promotes it all over various gun boards, and aside from him, it hasn't gained any traction...


So you disagree with the results showing expanding bullet vs. FMJ being a larger contributor than calibre? That was my only point.

My point is that it's best to ignore Marshall&Sanow's numbers. If the percentages can't be trusted, that's pretty much the end of their usefulness.

-- Michael

Moto4Fun
08-23-2010, 4:26 PM
Buy whatever you have pre-ban mags for!

pennstater
08-23-2010, 5:27 PM
The 45acp is a "crappy man stopper?"
I thought it was designed as a man stopper. Or did I just get your post wrong?
Just wondering.

inbox485
08-23-2010, 5:43 PM
All handguns are crappy man stoppers. .45 is only marginally more potent than 9mm.

tbhracing
08-23-2010, 5:51 PM
Again and again- the 9mm round has been killing people long before these caliber wars, the internet and Al Gore.

The round works and will keep working long after you/me/we die and leave the earth.

rromeo
08-23-2010, 5:59 PM
The 45acp is a "crappy man stopper?"
I thought it was designed as a man stopper. Or did I just get your post wrong?
Just wondering.
Crappy men are the important ones to stop.

hefedehefe
08-23-2010, 8:07 PM
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa44/smoothinoc/9mm-vs-45acp.jpg

hefedehefe
08-23-2010, 8:11 PM
Octane has nothing to do with energy content. It is the resistance to pre-ignition. If your engine isn't designed for a gas with octane above 87, you will see NO more performance.

Isn't that the case between .40 and .45 too though?

inbox485
08-24-2010, 10:00 AM
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa44/smoothinoc/9mm-vs-45acp.jpg

The pic is derogatory for my tastes, but it sums it up pretty well. 0.74" > 0.62", the wound channel is a bit larger, but the difference between making an assailant bleed out in 4 minutes rather than 5 even if you deliver that picture perfect COM shot still means you might get beaten to death in 3 minutes after taking the shot. That is why all reputable training schools teach some variant of a follow up head shot.

247Nino
08-24-2010, 10:07 AM
if you are FBI then you should go with the 40 S&W

if yous a gangsta (or like the less snappy recoil - much like a .45 AP recoil) then go wid dat 9 milli