PDA

View Full Version : AP Ammo


chau_mein
05-04-2006, 12:42 PM
I just want to clarify: AP ammo Legal- Tracer Ammo not legal?

glen avon
05-04-2006, 12:44 PM
AP ammo for .30-06 and M855 legal, yes. tracer definitley illegal, except for certain shotgun shells.

ohsmily
05-04-2006, 12:46 PM
I just want to clarify: AP ammo Legal- Tracer Ammo not legal?

NOTE: AP ammo NOT legal for handguns.

chau_mein
05-04-2006, 1:21 PM
So not all rifle AP ammo is legal in CA.

ohsmily
05-04-2006, 1:49 PM
So not all rifle AP ammo is legal in CA.

ZERO AP ammo for handguns is legal. But that is a federal law. Applies to all states.

EBWhite
05-04-2006, 2:19 PM
As for CA:

You can own and load ANY AP rifle ammo.
AP handgun ammo is illegal in CA
Tracer or Incind. ammo is also illegal in CA

However,
you may own the bullets for tracer or incind or handgun AP calibers but once you load it, it becomes a crime.

blacklisted
05-04-2006, 2:23 PM
However,
you may own the bullets for tracer or incind or handgun AP calibers but once you load it, it becomes a crime.

That is incorrect:

California Penal Code Section 12301

(a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons:

(1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.

I especially like this part:

(6) Any sealed device containing dry ice (CO2) or other chemically reactive substances assembled for the purpose of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction.

Wow, one of the science teachers at my old high school was guilty of manufacturing a destructive device many times. So am I!

EBWhite
05-04-2006, 2:33 PM
That is incorrect:

California Penal Code Section 12301

(a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons:

(1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.

I especially like this part:

(6) Any sealed device containing dry ice (CO2) or other chemically reactive substances assembled for the purpose of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction.

Wow, one of the science teachers at my old high school was guilty of manufacturing a destructive device many times. So am I!

Wow, i was under the impression from previous readings that it was only a crime to have the ammunition loaded. This part of the penal code i've never seen before. anyone else?

blacklisted
05-04-2006, 2:44 PM
Wow, i was under the impression from previous readings that it was only a crime to have the ammunition loaded. This part of the penal code i've never seen before. anyone else?


It's the actual penal code, and it doesn't lie.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12301-12316.html

I believe that with AP handgun ammunition, you can have the projectile. I don't know about the federal law.

12324. Nothing in this chapter shall prohibit the possession,
importation, sale, attempted sale, or transport of ammunition from
which the propellant has been removed and the primer has been
permanently deactivated.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12320-12325.html

50 Freak
05-04-2006, 3:09 PM
What about my 1,000 rounds of 22 Long Rifle high explosive heat seeking thermal nuclear armor piercing cop killing little children maiming soccer mom hating tracer ammo?

Is that legal? It is after all rim fire.

DrjonesUSA
05-04-2006, 3:25 PM
WTF is "armor piercing handgun ammo"?

Can any handgun bullet, other than the 57, pierce armor?

(Note that 5.7 ammo that is AP is already illegal for us mere citizens. :rolleyes: )

I do not believe that any handgun fires at a high enough velocity to pierce armor. (Notable exception made for the .500 & .460 S&W)

blacklisted
05-04-2006, 3:26 PM
WTF is "armor piercing handgun ammo"?

Can any handgun bullet, other than the 57, pierce armor?

(Note that 5.7 ammo that is AP is already illegal for us mere citizens. :rolleyes: )

I do not believe that any handgun fires at a high enough velocity to pierce armor. (Notable exception made for the .500 & .460 S&W)

(b) "Handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or
armor" means any ammunition, except a shotgun shell or ammunition
primarily designed for use in rifles, that is designed primarily to
penetrate a body vest or body shield, and has either of the following
characteristics:
(1) Has projectile or projectile core constructed entirely,
excluding the presence of traces of other substances, from one or a
combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, beryllium copper,
or depleted uranium, or any equivalent material of similar density
or hardness.
(2) Is primarily manufactured or designed, by virtue of its shape,
cross-sectional density, or any coating applied thereto, including,
but not limited to, ammunition commonly known as "KTW ammunition," to
breach or penetrate a body vest or body shield when fired from a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person.

DrjonesUSA
05-04-2006, 3:28 PM
I believe there's actually a law against "plastic guns" too, so I don't care what the law says.

My question is whether a handgun exists that is capable of firing a bullet at a high enough velocity to actually pierce armor, again with the notable exception of the S&W .500 and .460, which would probably pierce armor even with regular ammo.

The type of metal in a bullet doesn't guarantee it will pierce armor; you need velocity too.

ohsmily
05-04-2006, 3:36 PM
I believe there's actually a law against "plastic guns" too, so I don't care what the law says.

My question is whether a handgun exists that is capable of firing a bullet at a high enough velocity to actually pierce armor, again with the notable exception of the S&W .500 and .460, which would probably pierce armor even with regular ammo.

The type of metal in a bullet doesn't guarantee it will pierce armor; you need velocity too.

If you are going to be Mr. Skeptical (and wrong) and require empirical evidence to prove what should be pretty intuitive, then please identify what type of armor you are referring to before I provide you with the proof. You realize body armory, a.k.a. bullet-proof vests, are considered armor. So, please be specific about what armor you are referring to when you question what pistol rounds can penetrate armor.

DrjonesUSA
05-04-2006, 3:41 PM
If you are going to be Mr. Skeptical (and wrong) and require empirical results to prove what should be pretty intuitive, then please identify what type of armor you are referring to before I provide you with the proof. You realize body armory, or a.k.a. bullet-proof vests, are considered armor. So, please be specific when you ask what pistol rounds can penetrate armor.


I'm talking about any bullet-resistant vest.

Do you know that not a single police officer anywhere in the United States has EVER been killed because a handgun bullet penetrated his vest?

There is simply no such thing as "armor-piercing handgun bullets".

Handguns (with a few notable exceptions) cannot pierce body armor.

If I am wrong, prove it.

And don't point to the law. As I said, there is already a law against "plastic guns that can evade X-ray machines", so the fact that there may be a law referring to it doesn't mean it is real.

If I'm wrong, YOU prove it.

YOU are the one saying that handgun bullets can penetrate body armor.

YOU show me how this is possible.

glen avon
05-04-2006, 3:47 PM
WTF is "armor piercing handgun ammo"?

I do not believe that any handgun fires at a high enough velocity to pierce armor. (Notable exception made for the .500 & .460 S&W)

I believe they do. you prove to me they don't.

and NO I will not be wearing any vests in your efforts to prove/disprove....;)

DrjonesUSA
05-04-2006, 3:49 PM
I believe they do. you prove to me they don't.

and NO I will not be wearing any vests in your efforts to prove/disprove....;)


Sorry, that's not how it works.

If you say "I saw a unicorn" and I say "no you didn't, they don't exist", it is NOT up to me to prove that unicorns do not exist.

It is up to YOU to drag a unicorn in front of me and prove to me that they exist.

ohsmily
05-04-2006, 3:49 PM
I'm talking about any bullet-resistant vest.

Do you know that not a single police officer anywhere in the United States has EVER been killed because a handgun bullet penetrated his vest?

There is simply no such thing as "armor-piercing handgun bullets".

Handguns (with a few notable exceptions) cannot pierce body armor.

If I am wrong, prove it.

And don't point to the law. As I said, there is already a law against "plastic guns that can evade X-ray machines", so the fact that there may be a law referring to it doesn't mean it is real.

If I'm wrong, YOU prove it.

YOU are the one saying that handgun bullets can penetrate body armor.

YOU show me how this is possible.

Before I dig up the information, note this: The most commonly worn body armor is Level II WHICH DOESN'T EVEN PROTECT EFFECTIVELY AGAINST 44 MAG jacketed soft point. It is only rated up to .357. SO RIGHT THERE, a handgun bullet is defeating body armor "low velocity and all"...(granted, most criminals aren't shooting 44 mags). Now think about a round made of a solid hard metal like steel, tungsten, etc.

Now I am off to get the results of the "KTW" bullets and other hard handgun projectiles that don't deform like soft lead when it hits body armor....

DrjonesUSA
05-04-2006, 3:50 PM
Before I dig up the information, pull your head out of you a-- first...The most commonly worn body armor is Level II WHICH DOESN'T EVEN PROTECT EFFECTIVELY AGAINST 44 MAG jacketed soft point. It is only rated up to .357. SO RIGHT THERE, a handgun bullet is defeating body armor "low velocity and all"...(granted, most criminals aren't shooting 44 mags).

Now I am off to get the results of the "KTW" bullets and other hard handgun projectiles that don't deform like soft lead when it hits body armor....


If I'm wrong, I'll admit it.

Until then, prove it. :)

ohsmily
05-04-2006, 3:51 PM
Here is a start, I am looking for pictures since it seems you will only believe it when you see it.
Excerpt from interview with designer of the KTW bullet http://www.guncite.com/ktwint.html

ohsmily
05-04-2006, 3:56 PM
Here you go...
From left to right:
.38" Special Ball Metal-Piercing (USA)

.38" Special KTW Metal-Piercing (USA)

.38" Special KTW Metal-Piercing (USA)

.38" Special KTW Metal-Piercing (USA)

.38" Special SIB Metal-Piercing (France)

.38" Special THV (France)

.38" Special High-Velocity +P+ CBAP Mark 1 (UK)

.38" Special Velet Exploding-Bullet (USA)
http://www.conjay.com/2054%20Handgun%2038%20SPL%20003.jpg

blacklisted
05-04-2006, 3:56 PM
Sorry, that's not how it works.

If you say "I saw a unicorn" and I say "no you didn't, they don't exist", it is NOT up to me to prove that unicorns do not exist.

It is up to YOU to drag a unicorn in front of me and prove to me that they exist.

Sorry, but I killed the last unicorn with AP handgun ammunition.

50 Freak
05-04-2006, 4:02 PM
What about Teflon coated bullets, were'nt they banned because they where known to have pierced body armor?

Heck, I know for a fact that the surplus round 7.62x25 Tok will penetrate up to the Level II body armor. Pistol rounds can be "armor piercing". Not all of it is reliant on velocity. Has a lot to do with bullet shape and material.

ohsmily
05-04-2006, 4:06 PM
What about Teflon coated bullets, were'nt they banned because they where known to have pierced body armor?


You have fallen prey to the media...

In the mid 1960's, Dr. Paul Kopsch (an Ohio coroner), Daniel Turcos (a police sergeant) and Donald Ward (Dr. Kopsch's special investigator) began experimenting with special purpose handgun ammunition. Their objective was to develop a law enforcement round capable of improved penetration against hard targets like windshield glass and automobile doors. Conventional bullets, made primarily from lead, are often ineffective against hard targets especially when fired at handgun velocities. In the 1970's, Kopsch, Turcos and Ward produced their "KTW" handgun ammunition using steel cored bullets capable of great penetration. Following further experimentation, in 1981 they began producing bullets constructed primarily of brass. The hard brass bullets caused exceptional wear on handgun barrels, a problem combated by coating the bullets with Teflon. The Teflon coating did nothing to improve penetration, it simply reduced damage to the gun barrel.

In January of 1982, NBC Television broadcast a sensationalist prime time special titled "Cop Killer Bullets." Law enforcement officials had asked NBC not to air the program as the use of body armor by police officers was still not common knowledge and the "KTW" ammunition was virtually unheard of outside law enforcement circles. The safety of law enforcement officers took a back seat to ratings at NBC however and they not only broadcast the show, but re-broadcast it again six months later.


Kopsch explained that the teflon coating, which a host of media and lawmakers alleged was the key to penetrating body armor, served one purpose. It helped bullets go through smooth surfaces, like windshields and car doors, especially at oblique angles. The former Army medical officer likened it to the teflon tip of a walking stick. It simply grabs better.

Kopsch: "Adding a teflon coating to the round added 20% penetration power on metal and glass. Critics kept complaining about teflon's ability to penetrate body armor. That was nonsense typical of do-gooders. In fact, teflon cut down on the round's ability to cut through the nylon or kevlar of body armor."

ohsmily
05-04-2006, 4:10 PM
Here are some more...
Left to Right

.357" Magnum Tracer (USA)

.357" Magnum Metal-Piercing (Serbia)

.357" Magnum Arcane Metal-Piercing (France)

.357" Magnum KTW Metal -Piercing (USA)

.357" Magnum CBAP Mark 1 Armor-Piercing (UK)

.357" Magnum CBAP Mark 1 Armor-PIercing High-Velocity +P (UK)

.357" Magnum Armor-Piercing (USA)

.357" Magnum Exploder Exploding-Bullet (USA)

.357" Magnum Velet Exploding Bullet (USA)

.357" Maximum CBXX Mark 8 High-Velocity (UK)

.357" Maximum CBAP Mark 1 Armor-Piercing High-Velocity (UK)
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y136/ohsmily/205620Handgun2035720002.jpg

glen avon
05-04-2006, 4:15 PM
Sorry, that's not how it works.

If you say "I saw a unicorn" and I say "no you didn't, they don't exist", it is NOT up to me to prove that unicorns do not exist.

It is up to YOU to drag a unicorn in front of me and prove to me that they exist.

ahhhhhh, but that's not how it works. nobody here said HG ammo actually pierced bulletproof vests. we just discussed the legality of AP ammo and handguns.

*you* entered with an invitation to disprove your *new* argument that there is no such thing as an AP HG bullet. as the person introducing an argument, the initial burden of proof is on you.

if you disagree, then you have to prove why it isn't..... :D

paradox
05-04-2006, 4:22 PM
WTF is "armor piercing handgun ammo"?

Can any handgun bullet, other than the 57, pierce armor?


Those wily ruskies have.

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm
SP-10 armor piercing pistol ammunition

This development leads us back to pistol ammunition, but this time with improved penetration capabilities rather than stealth. The proliferation of body armor rendered most military pistols, with its ammunition being about 100 years old, almost obsolete. The one way to deal with body armor is to adopt smaller-caliber, high velocity bullets for both pistols and submachine guns. This gives additional benefit of flatter trajectory and lessened recoil, both beneficial for accuracy. At the minus side, the terminal performance of the small-caliber, light weight bullets is somewhat questionable. After initial test and research, conducted since late 1980s under the codename 'Grach', Russian armed forces adopted an improved version of the world's most popular pistol ammo, the 9x19 Parabellum. First produced circa 1994, this version of the 9mm features an armor piercing bullet of proprietary design, and a powerful powder charge, which brings this cartridge, officially designated as 7N21, to the +P+ level, with peak pressures running up to 2 800 kg per square meter. Armor piercing bullet for 7N21 ammo features a hardened steel penetrator core, enclosed into bimetallic jacket. The space between the core and jacked is filled with polyethylene, and the tip of the penetrator is exposed at the front of the bullet, to achieve better penetration. Bullet of the similar design, but of lighter weight, is used in another service 9x19 cartridge, 7N31, which has been developed in late 1990s for the GSh-18 pistol, and latter was adopted for PP-2000 submachine gun. Another offspring of the 'Grach' trials is the 9x21 family of ammunition. Adopted by the Federal Security Bureau (FSB) of Russian Federation, this cartridge in its basic form, known as SP-10, is more or less a stretched-out 7N21 cartridge with improved performance; 9x21 ammo also available in AP-T (tracer) and SP-11 low-ricochet ball (with lead core) bullets. This ammo is used in SPS 'Gyrza' pistol and in SR-2 'Veresk' submachine gun.
http://world.guns.ru/ammo/a_sp-10_9x19.jpg

-hanko
05-04-2006, 4:25 PM
Vest specs will tell you what rounds the vest is certified to stop. The CZ52 round has the velocity to penetrate some vests.

-hanko

glen avon
05-04-2006, 4:44 PM
http://www.frizzensparks.com/archives/000832.html

EBWhite
05-04-2006, 5:15 PM
where can that ammo (handgun ap) be purchased (only the projectile of course- ive never seen it for sale)

so the part that say unloaded bullets are legal to own does not apply to stuff with tracers or INCIND. charge in it?

ohsmily
05-04-2006, 6:14 PM
where can that ammo (handgun ap) be purchased (only the projectile of course- ive never seen it for sale)

so the part that say unloaded bullets are legal to own does not apply to stuff with tracers or INCIND. charge in it?

You are referring to the BULLET, not ammo (you said AP handgun ammo, the projectile only....that = BULLET)

...and over and over with the "INCIND."....you abbreviated it to avoid misspelling it, and you still managed to...INCEND. (Incendiary)...

I didn't say anything earlier b/c you frequently make errors (not typos, but words that you simply don't know how to spell), but incind. over and over had to be corrected....

didn't you say you are in college?

MidnightSon117
05-04-2006, 6:23 PM
(b) "Handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or
armor" means any ammunition, except a shotgun shell or ammunition
primarily designed for use in rifles, that is designed primarily to
penetrate a body vest or body shield, and has either of the following
characteristics:

The part about primarily designed for use in rifles is interesting...does that mean possession of AP ammo is not illegal for the 5.7, since the primary design was for use in the P-90?

VeryCoolCat
05-04-2006, 6:36 PM
Heh, I wonder with the wording of the penal code... could 5.7 be banned? I mean they can easily jump through vests.

If someone shortened a 9mm bullet and gave it a pointed tip.... I can see it being AP.

ohsmily
05-04-2006, 6:54 PM
Heh, I wonder with the wording of the penal code... could 5.7 be banned? I mean they can easily jump through vests.

If someone shortened a 9mm bullet and gave it a pointed tip.... I can see it being AP.

Uh, they don't sell 5.7 ammo that is AP. The designated 5.7 AP ammo is banned and the 5.7 ball ammo (FMJ) is not for sale to the public by FN (even though it isn't specifically AP ammo because of pressure from the media b/c of its armor piercing properties). So, the only 5.7 ammo for sale has bullets designed to expand greatly and NOT penetrate armor, despite its speed. So, the available 5.7 ammo can't "easily jump through vests" as you put it.

EBWhite
05-04-2006, 8:06 PM
You are referring to the BULLET, not ammo (you said AP handgun ammo, the projectile only....that = BULLET)

...and over and over with the "INCIND."....you abbreviated it to avoid misspelling it, and you still managed to...INCEND. (Incendiary)...

I didn't say anything earlier b/c you frequently make errors (not typos, but words that you simply don't know how to spell), but incind. over and over had to be corrected....

didn't you say you are in college?

Yes, my mistake. Handgun AP ammo loaded is illegal- I meant bullets!


Incind, you knew what i mean- You have to correct people all the time with spelling- I don't know if its to try to make yourself look better as it is an image thing with you. I can spell pretty decent, some of my spelling is not that great. It doesn't make me stupid or a bad person as you try to make me too- I am educated on other topics other than spelling-

Hunter
05-04-2006, 9:19 PM
WTF is "armor piercing handgun ammo"?

Can any handgun bullet, other than the 57, pierce armor?

(Note that 5.7 ammo that is AP is already illegal for us mere citizens. :rolleyes: )

I do not believe that any handgun fires at a high enough velocity to pierce armor. (Notable exception made for the .500 & .460 S&W)

Well the Olympic arms pistol in 7.62x39 will. And that is why we can no longer get steel core 7.62x39 ammo for our rifles.

knight_dive
05-04-2006, 9:43 PM
Not exacty on topic, but here is a link to the NIJ standards for body armor testing and the what the various categories of body armor are rated to stop and more importantly not stop.

http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles1/nij/183651.pdf#search='nij%20threat%20level%203%2

Also, I believe at least one type of body armor was recalled a couple of years ago because of several penetrations with .40 cal pistol ammo. I was on a ridealong with the LAPD and a couple of the seargents were complaining about not being fully reimbursed for them. I don't know if any deaths resulted from the pentrations.

saki302
05-05-2006, 12:48 AM
The 5.7 SS190 is designed specifically to pierce armor. You cannot buy that. Period.
The SS192/195/196/197 is training ammo. It's all in HP configuration, the latter two with soft plastic points. It is NOT designed to pierce armor, only SS190 is. In fact, some guys on the 5.7 forum tested it- even the high velocity SS192 will not penerate a Level IIIA vest.

Armor rating has a lot more factoed into it than just penetration. If a bullet deflects the armor panel more than 4" into a torso, I believe it fails the test. A IIIA panel might well catch a .500S&W bullet (fat bullets trap easier), but it does you no good if it still crushes your ribcage and you die from internal bleeding.

In my own tests, a 7.62x25 Tokarev) and a 9mm +P+ bullet from a Glock (FMJ) both penetrated an old IIA panel we had lying around (quite easily, I might add). I was not about to sacrifice my IIIA panel, but I was told it would stop these bullets. Speed and small cross section is all you need to beat a vest panel.
I believe .454 Casull will also blow clean though a IIIA panel (I was not present for that test), so S&W .460 should do so too! We are talking about pistol bullets which top some rifle cartridges in power and velocity though.

And as for the incendiary/tracer law, I've been told both things- that it's illegal, and illegal (on different occasions) to possess the pulled bullets. The vagueness comes from the term 'projectile' and following that, talking about loaded ammunition. A pulled bullet is not a projectile until it is fired, but I hope you'd have a good lawyer to defend you if you want to push this line of thought :D

-Dave

DrjonesUSA
05-05-2006, 8:30 AM
Well the Olympic arms pistol in 7.62x39 will. And that is why we can no longer get steel core 7.62x39 ammo for our rifles.



7.62x39 is not a handgun round.

DrjonesUSA
05-05-2006, 8:35 AM
In my own tests, a 7.62x25 Tokarev) and a 9mm +P+ bullet from a Glock (FMJ) both penetrated an old IIA panel we had lying around (quite easily, I might add).

I was not about to sacrifice my IIIA panel, but I was told it would stop these bullets. Speed and small cross section is all you need to beat a vest panel.
I believe .454 Casull will also blow clean though a IIIA panel (I was not present for that test), so S&W .460 should do so too! We are talking about pistol bullets which top some rifle cartridges in power and velocity though.

-Dave

Just curious, but how did you perform these tests?

Do you realize that if you just hang up a vest and shoot it, pretty much ANY round will go through it?

This is because vests are designed to stop bullets when they are worn on a human body, not when they are suspended in air with nothing behind them.

DrjonesUSA
05-05-2006, 8:42 AM
Sorry, but I killed the last unicorn with AP handgun ammunition.


:D :D :D


......

Hunter
05-05-2006, 2:48 PM
7.62x39 is not a handgun round.

Originally it was ONLY a rifle caliber but that is no longer the case from a legal view point.

Once a pistol was made for commericial trade that shot this round , AND it is readly available in commercial trade channels, it then has become a pistol caliber along with still being a rifle caliber. Just ask your local DOJ if you think otherwise.

DrjonesUSA
05-05-2006, 2:56 PM
Originally it was ONLY a rifle caliber but that is no longer the case from a legal view point.

Once a pistol was made for commericial trade that shot this round , AND it is readly available in commercial trade channels, it then has become a pistol caliber along with still being a rifle caliber. Just ask your local DOJ if you think otherwise.


Fair enough, but ask any number of serious shooters/gun enthusiasts what they think the 7.62x39 is; handgun or pistol.

50 Freak
05-05-2006, 3:05 PM
7.62x39 is not a handgun round.

If I remember correctly, I think it was Olympic Arms that screw us into loosing 7.62x39 steel core. They produced an couple of AR pistols that took the 7.62x39 steel core even despite warning from many gun nuts saying that by doing that, the DOJ will then classify the 7.62x39 steel core as a pistol round and ban it. Oly Arms went ahead with their AR 7.62x39 pistols and sure enough the DOJ declared the 7.62x39 steel core as AP pistol rounds and stopped importation.

Hence all shooters in the US lost a source of cheap plinking ammo as it was no longer importable into the US. Thanks Oly Arms.....

I remember being able to buy a 1,000 rounds of steel core/steel jacketed 7.62x39 for something like $70 bucks. After this fiasco, that ammo went up to $300 bucks a case. It took a few years for even regular 7.62x39 ammo to come back down to present day levels.

glen avon
05-05-2006, 3:11 PM
the OA-93.

in fact, IIRC the ATF told Oly what would happen but noooooooooooooooooooooo they just had to do it.

glen avon
05-05-2006, 3:19 PM
Just curious, but how did you perform these tests?

Do you realize that if you just hang up a vest and shoot it, pretty much ANY round will go through it?

This is because vests are designed to stop bullets when they are worn on a human body, not when they are suspended in air with nothing behind them.

so what you are saying is until I fly you to the aberdeen proving grounds and personally demonstrate that all AP HG ammo penetrates all bulletproof vests while being worn by human beings, you will continue to post in this thread that nobody has convinced you to your satisfaction that AP HG ammo exists.

is is very easy, but a waste of time, to sit back and demand that the world prove you wrong. you can always ask "but what about X, Y or Z?" or whatever but trying to drag down the evidence and reason of others with plaintive appeals to nothing on your part adds, well, nothing.

grammaton76
05-05-2006, 3:23 PM
the OA-93.

in fact, IIRC the ATF told Oly what would happen but noooooooooooooooooooooo they just had to do it.

I'm really surprised that the Brady Bunch doesn't have an FFL07 just so that they can manufacture and sell a limited quantity of handguns, designed for every steel cored round out there.

saki302
05-06-2006, 7:26 AM
We tested it several ways- hung up, phone book backing, and several layers of cloth over phone book backing (to simulate meat), propped up against a tree.

Hung up, bullets penetrate the LEAST. Why? because the vest can move back the furthest to absorb the shock- simple physics. Even hung up, the
Tok rounds zipped righ through, as did 9mm +P+.

Big rounds that were caught (.44spl) did horrific damage to the phone book. You would not want to be behind the IIA vest.

I suggest YOU do your own tests since you seem to be dissatisfied with anyone else's testing.

-Dave

Just curious, but how did you perform these tests?

Do you realize that if you just hang up a vest and shoot it, pretty much ANY round will go through it?

This is because vests are designed to stop bullets when they are worn on a human body, not when they are suspended in air with nothing behind them.

saki302
05-06-2006, 7:30 AM
Yes, I know, and you know, that SS192 is not designed to pierce armor. But the law bans any ammunition with a "shape" or "cross sectional density" which is designed to pierce armor. This means that SS190 is banned, because it's "shape" is designed to pierce armor. However, the "shape" of SS192 is identical to SS190, so therefore SS192 is also banned.


Shape has almost nothing to do with SS190's penetration abilities versus the steel penetrator configuration. By the 'shape' argument, the .22 hornet pistols (Raging hornet) should be banned too- these penetrate FAR more effectively than 5.7.
The SS192/5 does NOT have the same shape as SS190 either- it is a JHP round with a hollow cavity in the tip, and a hole in the point.

-Dave