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alpalwal
08-17-2010, 7:39 PM
3 weeks ago I bought a Savage 10fp from a user here on the forum. The rifle was down south and I’m up here in the bay and so it had to get shipped up here. I chose Irvington Arms of Fremont, CA as my FFL because I’ve used them in the past and they’re the closest ones to me.

When the seller (1,500+ posts, and all positive iTrader feedback) shipped the rifle up to me he sent me a message. It said that he removed the scope and the bolt and individually wrapped them for shipping. I quote: “I attached a packing list to the side of the box.
The rifle, bolt and scope are wrapped in plastic be careful not the throw the bolt out with the packing popcorn. ”

I started the transfer before the rifle arrived in the store, so I didn’t get a chance to see it when it arrived. After my 10 days were up I went down and finished up the transfer on the rifle. It was in a box with the scope and such and so I took everything home.

After I got home I took everything out of the box to take a look at my new rifle. I should have done this at the store, but it wouldn’t have made a difference in this case. The rifle looks great and just like it was advertised, and the scope is in the box as well and it’s individually wrapped. There were about 3 packing peanuts still left in the box because all of the other padding material had been discarded.

After I finished unpacking the box I realized there was a problem – the bolt is missing.

I called up Irvington Arms of Fremont, CA and had them take a look for the bolt. I talked to Dave and he told me he was the one who unpacked the rifle. He told me that the box had been jammed to the brim with packing materials and he had to take everything out of the box just so he could check the serial on the rifle. I told him about the missing bolt situation and he got pretty defensive about it but he said he would take look.

A couple days later I called back and I was told that Martin was the guy in charge (owner) and I should talk to him. They said to call back Tuesday (today). I talked with him a little while ago to try to get this situation fixed.

After completely explaining the situation to Martin, he was not helpful at all. He said that “in 7 years they’ve never thrown out a bolt”, and he “doesn’t see how this is his problem” and “I only have $50 in this deal, what do you want me to do?” After a couple minutes of back and forth discussion the end result was him basically saying “tough luck, it wasn’t us”.

Message to Martin: Sometimes your employees screw up, and it’s a lot better to take care of the customer than to act petty. You’re basically saying one of three things, all of which are unacceptable. 1) Alex, you’re a liar and trying to screw me out of a bolt. 2) The seller of the rifle is a liar. Or, 3) My guy might have thrown it away, but tough nuts because I value the $50 I made over whatever future business you and your friends will bring me.

This whole issue has been extremely negative, and Irvington Arms of Fremont, CA hasn’t stepped up to the plate like they need to. They screwed up, and the owner won’t man-up to take care of the problem. Now I’m out another couple hundred on a new bolt (if I can find one separate in the first place) and I’m pretty mad about getting screwed on this.

Needless to say, I won’t ever go back to Irvington Arms of Fremont, CA. If this sort of treatment matters to you, consider taking your business to another FFL in the Bay Area.

RobG
08-17-2010, 7:52 PM
Bummer. But how does one not check the the contents of the box before taking it home? And why was the bolt removed to ship?

ke6guj
08-17-2010, 8:07 PM
bolts are often removed from the firearm before shipping so tht the bolt handle does not try to poke through the box. plus, less chance of the bolt handle getting bent if it is removed from the firearm.

alpalwal
08-17-2010, 8:11 PM
Bummer. But how does one not check the the contents of the box before taking it home? And why was the bolt removed to ship?

I saw the rifle inside the box and pulled it up about 3", I just didn't empty everything out. I'll definitely be doing that in the future.

In this case though it wouldn't have made a difference. Either at the store or later on the phone they would have avoided responsibility.

gotime
08-17-2010, 8:28 PM
^ Yeah at that point the bolt was already thrown away so it wouldn't have mattered. Sorry to hear about your misfortune, I'm in SoCal so doing business with them is a non-issue, but I can give you a free bump.

Irvington Arms, do what's right and take care of this.

eaglemike
08-17-2010, 8:31 PM
I'm sorry about your experience.......

Please call customer service at Savage. I'm pretty sure they will help you get a new bolt. It won't be free, but it won't hurt as bad as it could with some others, I'm pretty sure.
all the best,
Mike

RikSors
08-17-2010, 8:35 PM
Could the bolt been lost during transit? What was the condition of the box? Or how about asking the seller nicely to double check if the bolt was shipped?

I can just feel the frustration on both sides.

It is always a good practice to check everything before leaving the store. Heck, I even do it at Drive Thru's...missing a straw on your drink is not very convenient.

paul0660
08-17-2010, 8:38 PM
I would HOPE that if my gun store received a rifle without a bolt their next move would be to investigate further.

SLYoteBoy
08-17-2010, 8:40 PM
Irvington Arms going to **** the bed over a bolt?

Omega13device
08-17-2010, 8:49 PM
This kind of thing does happen from time to time.

The only part that MUST go to the FFL is the firearm. Anything that's not firmly attached to it would be better off being shipped directly to the buyer. In the long run it's worth spending a little more on shipping.

Sorry to hear about this. It would have been a great customer service story for Irvington if they had replaced the bolt for you.

bsg
08-17-2010, 8:56 PM
how frustrating....

GammaRei
08-17-2010, 9:12 PM
I didnt know that you could start a transfer on a firearm before it had even arrived?

- G

gotime
08-17-2010, 9:14 PM
Could the bolt been lost during transit? What was the condition of the box? Or how about asking the seller nicely to double check if the bolt was shipped?

I can just feel the frustration on both sides.

It is always a good practice to check everything before leaving the store. Heck, I even do it at Drive Thru's...missing a straw on your drink is not very convenient.

yeah stuff happens, but the OP mentioned there was a packing slip, so really there's no excuse for this.

ke6guj
08-17-2010, 9:14 PM
I didnt know that you could start a transfer on a firearm before it had even arrived?

- G

depends on the dealer, some will, some won't.

GammaRei
08-17-2010, 9:29 PM
depends on the dealer, some will, some won't.

Second part of my question! Is it legal?

- G

ke6guj
08-17-2010, 9:32 PM
Second part of my question! Is it legal?

- G

AFAIK, it is legal. CADOJ may not like it when they see it, but there is nothing stopping the dealer from starting a long gun DROS whenever they want, and they can start a handgun DROS when they have the identifying info from the handgun in question.

HUTCH 7.62
08-17-2010, 9:42 PM
Man that sucks. usually Irvington Arms has great service.

556MikeMike
08-17-2010, 10:11 PM
Sorry to the OP that this happened to you. Did they throw away the box that it came in? Otherwise I'd find it hard to believe they would throw the bolt away since it would have some weight to it.

Two Shots
08-17-2010, 10:21 PM
Have you contacted the seller and ask if he could look around, just in case it didn't make it into the box by accident.

nagorb
08-17-2010, 10:34 PM
That sucks. I've only been to Irvington Arms once and had a bad experience but most other people seem to like them. Unless you really trust the seller you can't really tell who is at fault.

alpalwal
08-17-2010, 10:41 PM
I would HOPE that if my gun store received a rifle without a bolt their next move would be to investigate further.
I can see both sides of this one. Looking back it's easy to say that, but as someone later in this thread said - people ship parts separate all the time.


Could the bolt been lost during transit? What was the condition of the box? Or how about asking the seller nicely to double check if the bolt was shipped?

I can just feel the frustration on both sides.

It is always a good practice to check everything before leaving the store. Heck, I even do it at Drive Thru's...missing a straw on your drink is not very convenient.

I doubt it was lost during transit. I still have the box and it's in fine condition.


I didnt know that you could start a transfer on a firearm before it had even arrived?

- G
Apparently it's ok-ish for long guns, but not for handguns.


Sorry to the OP that this happened to you. Did they throw away the box that it came in? Otherwise I'd find it hard to believe they would throw the bolt away since it would have some weight to it.

I still have the box, and I agree it's hard to throw away a bolt. The only thing I can think of is that it just got lumped in with all the other packing material that was apparently crammed into the box.

Have you contacted the seller and ask if he could look around, just in case it didn't make it into the box by accident.

I just sent the seller a message asking him to jump in on this thread.

nagorb
08-17-2010, 10:52 PM
BTW - It cannot be clearly established as a fact that Irvington Arms was at fault here. Considering that the thread title is over the top.

Even though I had a negative experience with them I still wouldn't discourage others from using them. Kinda reminds me of the City Arms thread which ended up giving CA a bunch of free advertising.

ColdSteel
08-17-2010, 10:54 PM
Wow.. What a nightmare. I'm the seller of the rifle and I'm not a stranger to packing and shipping things.

I attached a packing list to the box for specifically this reason.

I wrapped the whole rifle, bolt and scope in plastic to keep the packing peanuts out of the bore, trigger, bolt assembly and action.

It's really unfortunate that the person who unpacked the rifle did not have the foresight to:

1. Leave the package alone for the customer to inspect upon commencing the DROS paperwork
Or
2. Unwrap the rifle, look for all the parts and assemble it for the customer.

Put yourself in Mr. Box opener's shoes.
You open a box with a rifle wrapped in plastic, a scope wrapped in plastic but no bolt installed on the rifle... It's a whole rifle system. Did this guy buy a weapon without a bolt?

Unfortunate negligence.

The guy that threw the part of the gun away has to fix it.


bolts are often removed from the firearm before shipping so tht the bolt handle does not try to poke through the box. plus, less chance of the bolt handle getting bent if it is removed from the firearm.

This is the exact reason I took the bolt out of the rifle.

Until I am convinced otherwise,
IRVINGTON ARMS SUCKS

wikidklown
08-17-2010, 11:04 PM
Wow, I've transfered a few firearms from IA and never had any sort of problem at all...
I've always gotten parts I needed right away if I cant wait or order online...
Hopefully they come up with a resolution for you.....

nagorb
08-17-2010, 11:06 PM
Wow, I've transfered a few firearms from IA and never had any sort of problem at all...
I've always gotten parts I needed right away if I cant wait or order online...
Hopefully they come up with a resolution for you.....

YO! roland whats up!!!!

nagorb
08-17-2010, 11:07 PM
Wow.. What a nightmare. I'm the seller of the rifle and I'm not a stranger to packing and shipping things.

I attached a packing list to the box for specifically this reason.

I wrapped the whole rifle, bolt and scope in plastic to keep the packing peanuts out of the bore, trigger, bolt assembly and action.

It's really unfortunate that the person who unpacked the rifle did not have the foresight to:

1. Leave the package alone for the customer to inspect upon commencing the DROS paperwork
Or
2. Unwrap the rifle, look for all the parts and assemble it for the customer.

Put yourself in Mr. Box opener's shoes.
You open a box with a rifle wrapped in plastic, a scope wrapped in plastic but no bolt installed on the rifle... It's a whole rifle system. Did this guy buy a weapon without a bolt?

Unfortunate negligence.

The guy that threw the part of the gun away has to fix it.




This is the exact reason I took the bolt out of the rifle.

Until I am convinced otherwise,
IRVINGTON ARMS SUCKS

If this is true, they should make it right.

Josh3239
08-17-2010, 11:09 PM
I used Irvington Arms once, they suck and I'll never use them again. Even my local dealer told me that it sounds like they were just jerking me around. One of the stupidest things they did was to threaten to turn over the handgun I had sent to them to the police even though it was a legal handgun that was registered to me. When I told them to return it to me they told me that they had to send it to a transfer dealer. They would not send my handgun back to me even though it was already registered to me. Whenever I challenged them on anything their answer was, "Well, it is a handgun so it has different rules".

plan-b
08-17-2010, 11:17 PM
Wrap the gun, scope & bolt separately. Tape the wrapped scope and wrapped bolt to the rifle receiver. That way, when it's removed from the packaging, it comes out as one whole unit. My $.02 on how I'd package a rifle to be shipped but YMMV.

I've only ever had great experiences at Irvington Arms and they've bent over backwards for me on a number of occasions even though 9+ out of 10 visits, I'm only there to look and don't spend money with them.

ColdSteel
08-17-2010, 11:32 PM
BTW - It cannot be clearly established as a fact that Irvington Arms was at fault here. Considering that the thread title is over the top.

Well...
I packed the rifle. I put all the parts in a study box, and I taped the hell out of it.
I even attached a packing list.

Clear enough?

stitchnicklas
08-17-2010, 11:39 PM
buyer needs to sue the hell out of irvington,sue them for the bolt-loss of use of gun-mental duress and anything else....

as for the vendor i say ban...i hate shady businesses

Malthusian
08-17-2010, 11:44 PM
No point beating up a vendor as everyone knows we have more customers than vendors

Two issues here.

#1 - All FFL should open boxes in front of the person transferring, unless there is some sort of understanding. this can also be done when the client is picking up.

It requires a little coordination, but is no extra work. Additional benefit is that client gets to take all the packing/stuffing material with them.

#2 - Once a client picks up the stuff and walks out the shop, it will take a very generous business to entertain any claims. It is very unusual and highly unlikely that any business will entertain this sort of claim.

If it was me (assuming I walked out without checking), I will reach out to the shop but will hold no expectations of compensation in the event it is not found.

Sorry for your loss.

The one time I had a long gun shipped
The FFL presented me the package un-opened and "I opened the package" for him to record the serial number

Of all the FFL's I have come to like Irvington Arms the best

I hate to play Devil's advocate, but per the previous post
There is no way to prove "any" of the three possible scenarios

As a gesture Irvington Arms could have offered to order a new bolt at "cost"
or maybe chip in his $50 fee at most, but that would be up to them

I do find it odd that they did not question a rifle without a bolt and either contact or mention it to you before you arrived or at the time of pickup

I am sorry for you loss and hope you are able to resolve this

ke6guj
08-17-2010, 11:49 PM
No point beating up a vendor as everyone knows we have more customers than vendors

Two issues here.

#1 - All FFL should open boxes in front of the person transferring, unless there is some sort of understanding. this can also be done when the client is picking up.

It requires a little coordination, but is no extra work. Additional benefit is that client gets to take all the packing/stuffing material with them.


The one time I had a long gun shipped
The FFL presented me the package un-opened and I opened the package
for him to record the serial number

Realize that an FFL only has a limited timeframe in which he can have that firearm boxed up like that. The firearm needs to be logged into his bound book, so he has to open the package as some point (24-48 hours) in order to note the serial number, make, model, etc

edit: normally, they must log it in by the end of the next business day, but if it comes with a commercial record (sounds like it would be to be invoiced from a dealer with all the important info on the record), they have up to 7 days to log it in. So, in the OP's case, it appears that there would have been no "commercial record" so it would need to be logged in by the end of the next day, so they had to open the package. That doesn't excuse losing parts though.

Q: How much time does a dealer have to record acquisitions and dispositions of firearms in his or her “bound book?”
Generally, licensees have to enter the acquisition or purchase of a firearm by the close of the next business day after the acquisition or purchase and shall record sales or other dispositions within 7 days.

However, if commercial records containing the required information are available for inspection and are separate from other commercial documents, dealers have 7 days from the time of receipt to record the receipt in the “bound book.”

If a disposition is made before the acquisition has been entered in the “bound book,&rdquo the acquisition entry must be made at the same time as the disposition entry.

[27 CFR 478.125]

Chiney-K
08-18-2010, 12:04 AM
I'm sorry, but all I've ever gotten from Irvington Arms is a bunch of shady looks and a BAD attitude. For a Firearms Industry that always needs help, you would think stores would GET something as BASIC as customer service. I felt NO respect during my entire experience there.

norcal77
08-18-2010, 12:32 AM
Sucks to hear...hate when things go wrong...

I've used Irvington a couple times with no problems..they weren't the friendliest but they weren't rude either..just straight down to business.

nagorb
08-18-2010, 2:06 AM
I'm sorry, but all I've ever gotten from Irvington Arms is a bunch of shady looks and a BAD attitude. For a Firearms Industry that always needs help, you would think stores would GET something as BASIC as customer service. I felt NO respect during my entire experience there.

I think a lot of shops, especially older shops, are used to a time before the Internet, when they were the source of all gun info. Now we can find much more and CORRECT info online and they don't like it.

andalusi
08-18-2010, 2:29 AM
buyer needs to sue the hell out of irvington,sue them for the bolt-loss of use of gun-mental duress and anything else....

LOL Suing in small claims for the cost of a replacement bolt, okay, but
mental duress? Loss of use of gun? "Su[ing] the hell out of Irvington?"

tenpercentfirearms
08-18-2010, 6:23 AM
I ship quite a bit of materials and I like to package up parts that might get discarded into larger plastic bags to keep them together. In this case taping them up to the rifle would have been a good idea too.

Now, let's say that had been Ten Percent Firearms that had shipped the rifle to Irvington Arms for transfer. Does the buyer have any expectation that I would deliver the goods as promised? Does the seller in this case have partial responsibility to make sure the customer gets what he ordered?

I sent a complete rifle to that place that went out of business in Northridge and the customer told me that it didn't have a buffer or spring when he got it. I know for a fact I sent a buffer and a spring in a complete rifle. I went ahead and replaced it and then decided never to use them as a transfer dealer ever again.

In the end, both Irvington and the seller might want to work together to get the customer what he was promised. Irvington definitely needs to be more careful when receiving firearms and the seller needs to make receiving the firearm fool proof.

Juice5610
08-18-2010, 7:23 AM
Thanks for the heads up OP I will not be buying from Irvington arms and will advise others to do the same. I hope this spreads all over the internet and they get their **** together.

264charlie
08-18-2010, 8:26 AM
The FFL received the package and should have taken the time to check it's contents against the packing slip. Since they accepted the package the responsibility is on them.

I have had two experiences of lost items at FFLs. Both times the FFL made good no questions asked.

TenPercent: Left out a BG on one of my ordered. I did not realize it for a few weeks. When I called up they replaced it no questions asked... First Class guys.

B&G, I bolt know walked away from time I DROSD to pickup. Not have a replacement they just paid a fair cost...

zman
08-18-2010, 8:53 AM
I've only ever had great experiences at Irvington Arms and they've bent over backwards for me on a number of occasions even though 9+ out of 10 visits, I'm only there to look and don't spend money with them.

Shops make hundreds of transactions without altercations. It's that one-in-a-hundred unfortunate incident where you can gauge a shop/shop owner's true skin.


I ship quite a bit of materials and I like to package up parts that might get discarded into larger plastic bags to keep them together. In this case taping them up to the rifle would have been a good idea too.

Now, let's say that had been Ten Percent Firearms that had shipped the rifle to Irvington Arms for transfer. Does the buyer have any expectation that I would deliver the goods as promised? Does the seller in this case have partial responsibility to make sure the customer gets what he ordered?

I sent a complete rifle to that place that went out of business in Northridge and the customer told me that it didn't have a buffer or spring when he got it. I know for a fact I sent a buffer and a spring in a complete rifle. I went ahead and replaced it and then decided never to use them as a transfer dealer ever again.

In the end, both Irvington and the seller might want to work together to get the customer what he was promised. Irvington definitely needs to be more careful when receiving firearms and the seller needs to make receiving the firearm fool proof.

Excellent post :thumbsup:

Greg-Dawg
08-18-2010, 9:06 AM
Have you posted this concern on the Vendor's section? They have a "Ask Irvington Arms" thing.

frankm
08-18-2010, 9:08 AM
Yes, send them a certified letter asking for a replacement bolt, when they don't respond file in small claims and take the seller as a witness.

biglou
08-18-2010, 9:20 AM
I never dealt with IA so I can't comment on their service. They are in the Vendors Forum so I know they have read this. I would like to hear their take on this situation. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback, but I'm also not sure why the OP did not inspect everything their at the store so he could confront IA and call the seller/shipper if there was a problem.

professorhard
08-18-2010, 9:31 AM
I had a single sub-par experience with IA as well, so now all my money gets spent at J&R in livermore.

plan-b
08-18-2010, 9:32 AM
Seems to be a lot of knee-jerk reactions to a story that was only directly experienced by a handful of people. I don't have any business relationship to Irvington Arms other than as a satisfied customer.

This is my most recent dealing with them:
I met a fellow CalGunner there late on a Friday evening to do a PPT. When the paperwork was done, I started looking over their consignment case and saw another gun I really wanted. Later that night, I realized that the extra mags that came with the first gun were left on their counter while I got distracted by their consignment guns. I went back the next day and as I started to ask about the mags I stupidly left behind Dave gave me a big smile and pulled them from behind the counter.

It really sucks that the OP is out a rifle bolt right now. And yes, IA should help make it right. But like many businesses, there's usually experiences that span both ends of the spectrum.

ZX-10R
08-18-2010, 9:35 AM
Bummer. But how does one not check the the contents of the box before taking it home? And why was the bolt removed to ship?

Yeah really...Who the heck goes picking up a gun without checking to make sure it is complete let alone damaged.

maddesign
08-18-2010, 9:36 AM
fwiw, I just bought 2 brand new 700's, they ship with the bolts out of the gun

faterikcartman
08-18-2010, 10:13 AM
"I don't give much credence to all these complaints about the Jews; dear Adolf has always been very good to me..." -- Eva Braun?

Omega13device
08-18-2010, 10:26 AM
Yeah really...Who the heck goes picking up a gun without checking to make sure it is complete let alone damaged.
I think it's true that ultimately the buyer is responsible for checking to make sure that everything is in the package before leaving the premises.

To the OP: you may have to just eat the cost and view it as a learning experience. Going to small claims court will take a lot of time and it's far from a certain outcome.

khw9mm
08-18-2010, 10:44 AM
I had the lower parts kit for my AR missing when it was sent together with the receiver to a FFL near me. I called DD's Ranch and he told me FOR SURE he put it in the package but sent me another parts kit directly to me anyway...That's a stand up guy!!

Gryff
08-18-2010, 11:19 AM
In the future, don't start the DROS on a mail-order/Internet-order item without first inspecting it. I understand how you feel, but what proof (which is not the same as reasoning) can you offer IA that it is their fault?

I'm not saying that they might not be at fault, but I'm sure that they regularly deal with people that accuse them of screwing things up when it was actually the buyer or seller at fault. If that is the norm for them, you can't expect them to simply take you at your word for an item worth $100+ (unless you have a good track record with them). Remember that you can't expect Nordstrom/REI level customer service from any gun shop. They don't have the liquid cash to be able to trust the word of every customer who says that something is missing and it's IA's fault.

So, try to see it from their perspective before you crucify them on the Internet.

professorhard
08-18-2010, 11:22 AM
See if IA will pull the CCTV tapes to see if theres any video of the unpacking, may or may not help but worth a try.

alpalwal
08-18-2010, 11:25 AM
Thanks guys... this is a round-up response.... Irvington Arms' only offer to make this right was to call Savage to order another bolt I could buy at standard prices. There was no other offer, no apology, no attempt to make this right, and not a bit of remorse that the incident occurred. It was simply "not our fault". It was the epitome of 'take it or leave it' customer service, and reflects extremely short-sighted thinking.

If they had shown the least bit of understanding, or willingness to even consider that their employee had made a mistake, I'd feel differently. But they didn't. They could have been heroes for the way they handled this, and I would have written an entirely different letter.

Yet again, I know I should have inspected it thoroughly before removing it from the store. However, based upon their actions and attitude since, they've given no reason to believe that would have changed their attitude.

The bottom line is that they were managing this transaction, they blew it, and I have an unusable product I have to spend additional $$ to make whole.

For those who've written it's inconclusive that IA did this, I have to say, you're basically impugning my honesty and that of the seller, who is a regular contributor to this forum and who has an impeccable record as a seller and contributor. So, yes, while nothing is 100%, to throw this incident out based on that lack of 100% certainty is lame, ignores the facts, and is a distraction from the real issue, which is lousy customer service from a supposedly reputable dealer in our close-knit community.

audiophil2
08-18-2010, 11:53 AM
Allegation: IA lost a bolt.
Fact: Buyer did not inspect merchandise prior to leaving premises.

Next time inspect your stuff. At least then you can put the onus on IA and the seller instead of having zero ground to stand on.
This has nothing to do with honesty. It looks like each entity in this transaction failed to do their share of the work. The seller shipped items in a box of mostly packaging material, IA did not inventory the items against the packing list, the buyer did not inspect prior to leaving the shop. The only entity with a significant interest in the gun is the buyer yet it is pretty clear you did nothing to ensure you got what you paid for.

imtheomegaman
08-18-2010, 12:55 PM
"I don't give much credence to all these complaints about the Jews; dear Adolf has always been very good to me..." -- Eva Braun?

what the ...

imtheomegaman
08-18-2010, 1:04 PM
snip you're basically impugning my honesty and that of the seller snip

Not at all. We are human and mistakes are made. It sounds likely that the dealer accidentally threw it away, but there is no way you can rule out the buyer accidentally leaving it out.

I'm not suggesting anything about your honesty or the sellers honesty. Haven't you ever been 1000 percent sure of something only to embarrassingly find that you were wrong, I certainly have.

Irvington should have handled it differently, ie "We looked around quite a bit, and are pretty careful about that kind of thing, just to be fair how about we buy a replacement, and you pay our cost"

or "you pay half"

I dunno, just my thoughts

eaglemike
08-18-2010, 1:09 PM
snip snip

Not at all. We are human and mistakes are made. It sounds likely that the dealer accidentally threw it away, but there is no way you can rule out the buyer accidentally leaving it out.

I'm not suggesting anything about your honesty or the sellers honesty. Haven't you ever been 1000 percent sure of something only to embarrassingly find that you were wrong, I certainly have.

Irvington should have handled it differently, ie "We looked around quite a bit, and are pretty careful about that kind of thing, just to be fair how about we buy a replacement, and you pay our cost"

or "you pay half"

I dunno, just my thoughts
Did you miss the post where the seller specifically said he made the packing list, and carefully wrapped the parts? Look above for the post by Cold Steel 14.

I know I've made mistakes, sure. In this case it seems like there was enough care that IA could have made an effort to help...

all the best,
Mike

-hanko
08-18-2010, 2:10 PM
LOL Suing in small claims for the cost of a replacement bolt, okay, but
mental duress? Loss of use of gun? "Su[ing] the hell out of Irvington?"
That exact CA attitude is one reason I can live out of CA half the time;).

CA would benefit by eliminating about 95% of the attorneys in the state.

-hanko

JagerTroop
08-18-2010, 2:11 PM
Sounds like IA dropped the ball on this one, big time.

It sounds to me like the seller/shipper did a thorough job; wrapped, packed, packing slip. Yes, the OP should've inspected it prior to leaving the shop, but at this point I agree that it probably wouldn't have mattered.

Regardless of fault, IA could've offered a replacment at cost.

To all the shops out there, here are some customer service stats:

-A typical dissatisfied customer will tell 6-10 people (in this case, 6-10k)about the problem. A typical satisfied customer will tell 1-2 people.

-It costs 6 times more to attract a new customer than it does to keep an old one.

-Of those customers who quit, 68% do so because of an attitude of indifference by the company or a specific individual.

-About 7 of 10 complaining customers will do business with you again if you resolve the complaint in their favor.

-If you resolve a complaint on the spot, 95% of customers will do business with you again.

imtheomegaman
08-18-2010, 2:15 PM
Did you miss the post where the seller specifically said he made the packing list, and carefully wrapped the parts? Look above for the post by Cold Steel 14.

I know I've made mistakes, sure. In this case it seems like there was enough care that IA could have made an effort to help...

all the best,
Mike

didn't miss that Mike, my point was basically:

a)The dealer should have handled this better...
b)There is no way to be 100% sure that the bolt was there (again I am confident it was)

faterikcartman
08-18-2010, 2:25 PM
what the ...

It always cracks me up when people post things like "you must be full of #$%@ because so-and-so has always treated me great..." I imagine Eva Braun could have said something like "why the fuss about the Jews, sweet Adolf has always been great to me."

So my brow furrows when someone complains about a vendor and everyone chimes in with how great the vendor treated them -- as if that has any bearing on how this guy got treated.

The test is not how did things go when everything ran smooth, but how did everyone respond when crap hit the fan.

I'm sure if either the seller or buyer misplaced that bolt one of them would have spoken up and the OP would have deleted his original post. So it isn't hard to imagine what happened to the bolt. (If one of you does find it, however, you better apologize from the highest rooftops.)

When the FFL offers to do transfers for free, rather than $50, or however much they charge, I will join the ranks of those who don't think the FFL shares some responsibility.

raw24
08-18-2010, 3:14 PM
What is interesting is that AKAIK the seller has not stepped up and offered to replace the bolt.
Crap happens all the time, and everybody begins pointing fingers, but at the end of the day the seller is responsible for making sure the product arrives as advertised.
At the very least the seller should offer to split the loss, but if this was my deal I would have gotten a new bolt for the OP or refunded the cost of the bolt.

Gryff
08-18-2010, 3:43 PM
the seller is responsible for making sure the product arrives as advertised.

True, but the buyer didn't make sure to verify that everything was there as promised before a third party opened the box. At this point, there is no way to know who was actually at fault.

plan-b
08-18-2010, 4:53 PM
So my brow furrows when someone complains about a vendor and everyone chimes in with how great the vendor treated them -- as if that has any bearing on how this guy got treated.

Your reasoning works, but in some cases the way others have been treated actually does have bearing. It all depends on how the original complaint was framed.

If the original post was something like: "I bought a rifle and it's missing the bolt. Can I get suggestions on how to work with the FFL to get it cleared up?"

Then there really wouldn't be that much need for people to share their positive (and possibly irrelevant) experiences with said FFL. In that case, the focus of the thread would be on a solution.

In this case, the post (at least the subject line) focuses on the FFL's attitude in addition to finding a potential solution. So there's naturally going to be those that have had good experiences chiming in to help temper the argument and sentiment.

I feel for the OP. And for the record, I do think that IA should make a better effort to help out here. Anyway, I'm not invested enough to continue in this thread so I will bow out now with the hope that the OP gets the situation corrected in his favor.

PS. While logically sound, comparing a missing rifle part to an attempt at genocide is worlds apart.

Bad Voodoo
08-18-2010, 5:13 PM
Allegation: IA lost a bolt.
Fact: Buyer did not inspect merchandise prior to leaving premises.

Next time inspect your stuff. At least then you can put the onus on IA and the seller instead of having zero ground to stand on.
This has nothing to do with honesty. It looks like each entity in this transaction failed to do their share of the work. The seller shipped items in a box of mostly packaging material, IA did not inventory the items against the packing list, the buyer did not inspect prior to leaving the shop. The only entity with a significant interest in the gun is the buyer yet it is pretty clear you did nothing to ensure you got what you paid for.

:thumbsup:

I can only parrot the preceding response to the OP. No offense, but YOU should take personal responsibility for not inspecting your rifle while at the shop. You can beat the dead horse re: IA's employees all day long, however yours were the eyes that inspected the rifle (and packing slip, I assume), and yours the hands and arms that carried that rifle out IA's door. When you did walk out their door your right to complain, on a public forum no less, should have been forfeited. Live and learn, OP.

IA is one of our better local FFLs, and I can personally attest to their normal quality and experience.

NAVYDVR1
08-18-2010, 5:24 PM
It is against the law to start a DROS before he has the gun in his possession.Call DOJ and he will be fined and his license will be suspended.It will cost him a fortune for his rude and unprofessional behavior.

ke6guj
08-18-2010, 5:29 PM
It is against the law to start a DROS before he has the gun in his possession.Call DOJ and he will be fined and his license will be suspended.It will cost him a fortune for his rude and unprofessional behavior.

Really, against the law? Many dealer do the exact same thing without issue. CADOJ may not like it, and may question it during an audit, but AFAIK, it is not illegal. DO you have any PC, CCR, or case law you can point to tht shows it is illegal?

alpalwal
08-18-2010, 6:09 PM
Allegation: IA lost a bolt.
Fact: Buyer did not inspect merchandise prior to leaving premises.

Next time inspect your stuff. At least then you can put the onus on IA and the seller instead of having zero ground to stand on.
This has nothing to do with honesty. It looks like each entity in this transaction failed to do their share of the work. The seller shipped items in a box of mostly packaging material, IA did not inventory the items against the packing list, the buyer did not inspect prior to leaving the shop. The only entity with a significant interest in the gun is the buyer yet it is pretty clear you did nothing to ensure you got what you paid for.

After I got the rifle and took it home I immediately took everything out and then found out the bolt was missing. I should have looked at it at the store, but it wouldn't have made a difference. There is no way that it was lost after I took possession of it and I called less than 2 hours after picking it up from the store.

If I had found out the bolt was missing while still in the store, I believe they would have told me they would look for it and then eventually I'd be in the exact same position I am in now.

snip snip

Not at all. We are human and mistakes are made. It sounds likely that the dealer accidentally threw it away, but there is no way you can rule out the buyer accidentally leaving it out.

I'm not suggesting anything about your honesty or the sellers honesty. Haven't you ever been 1000 percent sure of something only to embarrassingly find that you were wrong, I certainly have.

Irvington should have handled it differently, ie "We looked around quite a bit, and are pretty careful about that kind of thing, just to be fair how about we buy a replacement, and you pay our cost"

or "you pay half"

I dunno, just my thoughts

If I had gotten any response like that I would have been fine. Crap happens all the time, it's just life. But they won't even consider that they could potentially be wrong and so it's all on me.

That exact CA attitude is one reason I can live out of CA half the time;).

CA would benefit by eliminating about 95% of the attorneys in the state.

-hanko

Yeah, I'm definitely not suing them or anything of the sort. I agree with you that we need less lawyers.


Really, against the law? Many dealer do the exact same thing without issue. CADOJ may not like it, and may question it during an audit, but AFAIK, it is not illegal. DO you have any PC, CCR, or case law you can point to tht shows it is illegal?

Whether it's legal or not, I'm not trying to shut them down. I won't be giving them any more business but I think it's too far for me to try to completely wreck them.

Mendo223
08-18-2010, 6:35 PM
these are the tough decisions one must make as a business owner. luckily ive never gotten the kind of complaints like "parts were missing" etc. I take extra care with every package i send out, i even put invoice detailing whats in there.

with this kind of stuff you never know. im not saying the OP is a thief, but theres alot of shiest people out there. if they get a whiff that you replace parts no questions asked...i could easily see people claiming "hey the part was missing blah blah" and who can you blame? First off Irvington wasnt aware of the specifics of your shipment, so they did not know to search for loose parts when they inspected it. Also, i believe that as the customer, you should have thoroughly inspected before leaving. Once you left, you kind of loose your insurance policy. as a business owner, you never know when a customer went home and schemed and decided to call back and try to complain to get free stuff.

what if the mailman took it? what if a customer took it at irvington arms when they werent looking? what if irvington accidently threw it out, etc etc etc the situations go on and on. theres no police or detectives so no way to prove it.

theres no way to solve the situation than for someone to step up and take the loss. what ensues is a nice game of musical chairs..dont get stuck with the blame chair at any costs. hope the guy isnt a member of CG and move on. in this case its a CGer, and thousands of gun owners will read his complaints.

since the bolt isnt exactly thaaaat expensive, as a business owner i might just send one "at cost" or free to quiet up the stink about it.....but sometimes you gotta know when to tell a customer the harsh facts of life....

in regards to IA, ive had nothing but good experiances there, the older guy used to have an attitude but after some complaints i noticed he is much more polite and helpful.

gbp
08-18-2010, 6:38 PM
Whatever
make sure you headspace the new bolt

gotime
08-18-2010, 6:40 PM
A lot of people are overlooking the fact that the box was OPENED ALREADY when the OP got it. So regardless of when he looked through it, Irvington Arms would have avoided all liability, whether it be at the store or when he got home.

IA failed when the employee didn't check the parts with the included packing list. Especially when something as important as the bolt was missing... imagine how the same guy would have reacted if he opened a box for a pistol and the slide was missing :eek:

gotime
08-18-2010, 6:45 PM
luckily ive never gotten the kind of complaints like "parts were missing" etc. I take extra care with every package i send out, i even put invoice detailing whats in there.

.... Irvington wasnt aware of the specifics of your shipment, so they did not know to search for loose parts when they inspected it.

If you are going to be the first person to open a shipment WITH A PACKING SLIP (we've gone over that the seller in fact included one) then you should check to see everything is there as to avoid situations just like this.

Mendo223
08-18-2010, 6:46 PM
i just remembered that once i did have a customer complain that certain ordered merchandise was missing. i was severely skeptical, but i ended up taking a 100 dollar profit loss because of that sale and gave him credit. being a business owner sucks sometimes...

If you are going to be the first person to open a shipment WITH A PACKING SLIP (we've gone over that the seller in fact included one) then you should check to see everything is there as to avoid situations just like this.

yea thats true. since the box had a packing slip...IA should have checked all parts. was the seller using packing peanuts for shipment? those suck for shipping stuff...they are severely messy. i can see IA not doing full inspection because they didnt wanna get peanuts all over the counters. i use roll bubble wrap for my stuff...its see through, clean, and enables for easy removal and inspection of merchandise

alpalwal
08-18-2010, 7:05 PM
From what I gathered it was a bunch of types of packing materials - paper, bubbles, peanuts, etc.

faterikcartman
08-18-2010, 7:27 PM
PS. While logically sound, comparing a missing rifle part to an attempt at genocide is worlds apart.

That's what everyone says when they don't understand the analogy or don't like where it leads. Extreme examples like this highlight the principles at issue where more mild examples allow people too much wiggle room and excuses like "you don't understand the nuance..."

Again, the store opened the box, the store charged for the service.

If I buy a blender at Target and come home and the blade is missing I call the maker of the blender.

But if the box is already opened and Target put a label on it saying they checked it out then I'm going to blame Target.

What I'm not going to buy is that in either case you are going to tell me you blame yourself for not checking the box while you're still at Target.

Is the Target analogy worlds closer?

What might need to happen to be fair to everyone is for the FFL to require people to stop by the day packages are delivered to sign off on condition and inventory the box.

Checking whilst still in the store at time of pick up would probably have been pointless as I get the impression that he would have been told the shipper never sent it -- but who knows. I guess I have to concede he "should have" checked -- but just don't see that being reasonable either, or helpful. And I suppose, since everyone takes this stuff personally -- probably me too -- I should clarify I don't necessarily think the store should have eaten the whole cost, but some sort of splitting, at cost replacement, or ??? should have been attempted. If I owned the store I would have called the shipper, reviewed the video tape for the day, grilled my employees, and tried to get to the bottom of it. I would not risk my business's good name over a careless employee or $150.

FelixEstrella
08-18-2010, 8:38 PM
I think a lot of shops, especially older shops, are used to a time before the Internet, when they were the source of all gun info. Now we can find much more and CORRECT info online and they don't like it.

Yeah. I love it when a potential customer will talk to a shop owner at-length about gun selections and then walk out and buy the gun online. ;)

tenpercentfirearms
08-18-2010, 9:39 PM
Well, what I got out of this thread is if I ever lose a bolt on a gun, all I have to do is sell it and ship it. If I make a really nice packing list and put it in the box with the rifle without the bolt, then I can blame the receiving FFL and slander his name online and no one will be the wiser. :43:

Actually, IA should learn that if they are going to open a box and it has an invoice, to check it. If IA had reported to the OP that the bolt was missing first, then the onus would have been on the seller. That IA didn't report it, leads me to believe they probably threw it away.

How much does a bolt cost? $100 to $200 dealer cost? That is peanuts in the grand scheme of your yearly profits and even smaller over the life time of a customer. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and lose some money.

Like when you break a customer's Colt AR15 upper receiver when trying to torque off the barrel. That was a $240 mistake. It happens. Now I have the right tools for the job.

gotime
08-18-2010, 9:49 PM
^ that about sums up this thread. Irvington Arms, step up and take care of this. It's been less than a day and this thread has 1,500+ views...

battleship
08-18-2010, 11:04 PM
IA is totally wrong on this one on so many levels, and this dont care attitude to customers is how they shoot themselves in the foot. I would drop them a line if they haven't all ready seen this damming thread.
To the dumb arse who unpacked the rifle box you have to take note of the packing list, all freight on the planet Earth comes with one when its shipped, you should be well versed in this when your own orders come in. Its how we identify whats actually being shipped, you read the list and check the contents of the box if they all match then no red flags. Perhaps the $50 chicken feed you were making on this transaction warranted a lack of professionalism you would overwise give to your own orders.
Remember IA we are all watching nothing gets unnoticed.
And we know your on this site.

FS00008
08-18-2010, 11:17 PM
Felix,

if the shop offered guns that weren't marked up 40% over MSRP, maybe they wouldn't do so. It's not cost effective to do an out of state transfer, and yet people do so still. Do you seriously wonder why? Shops are nickle and dimeing us to death. Also, some IA clown screwed with a pistol I PPT'd a few months ago and they never responded to a polite e-mail asking for them to not do it again and to acknowledge the issue. I will never shop at IA again unless they get rid of Frank and seriously modify their attitude. I know how a PPT works, having actually been on the dealer side many times in the past. The guy acted as if he was the be-all end all of firearms. I was prepared to go down and buy an Upper, and possibly a few other firearms. Frank's treatment of me, and how they screwed with my pistol and didn't admit it have made me never ever want to spend money there again. The OP's experience does not surprise me.

jonni
08-18-2010, 11:39 PM
its disappointing that IA hasnt responded to this thread in an attempt to settle the matter

wikidklown
08-19-2010, 5:34 AM
YO! roland whats up!!!!

Wassup bro, is it panoche time yet ;)

Geo
08-19-2010, 7:06 AM
It is against the law to start a DROS before he has the gun in his possession.Call DOJ and he will be fined and his license will be suspended.It will cost him a fortune for his rude and unprofessional behavior.

You don't know what you are talking about.

FelixEstrella
08-19-2010, 7:34 AM
Folks, I'll let you in on a little secret; retailers HATE private party transfers and/or transfers they didn't originate. There's no gain from their perspective and the pittance (legally they can't charge more than $25 for a FTF PPT, though some do anyway to cover their time) that they charge doesn't begin to cover the time needed to complete a transaction.

That retailers do these types of transfers anyway is laudable.

That this community (Calguns) would pile on IA and demand that they make it right is pitiful.

tzahoy
08-19-2010, 7:47 AM
Am I the only one that has trouble believing someone would pick up a firearm without removing it from the package, inspecting the bore, and doing a full function check on a firearm he's never seen before?

I've bought plenty of stuff sight unseen online and on this forum, but I've never begun a DROS without fully inspecting the item.

Something doesn't add up here.

Assuming the bolt was missing had you inspected the item initially, the item was still in the store and you had a better chance of negotiating with the shop. Once you leave the premises it could have fallen from the box or been lost any number of other ways.

If I were in your shoes I'd be pissed off too, but at myself. I think it's time to suck it up and stop blaming others. I agree that the possibility exists that the vendor lost your bolt, but your negligence blew the chance to prove that.

That said, I've used IA for several transfers and will again. They are not the greatest, they can be busy, lightly staffed and slow, but it's a low margin business. I've been to many worse dealers, and I'll take IA for what they are. They've also done a lot to support competitive shooters in the area and I appreciate that and go out of my way to buy something every time I go in the store.

alpalwal
08-19-2010, 10:55 AM
I think I've said in every reply - I realize I should have checked it before I left. So, moving on.

Felix, just about every gun store does transfers. Low margin or not, they do it and they make money off it. If they are too unhappy about doing them to offer customer service then they should stop doing transfers all together.

FelixEstrella
08-19-2010, 11:01 AM
I
Felix, just about every gun store does transfers. Low margin or not, they do it and they make money off it. If they are too unhappy about doing them to offer customer service then they should stop doing transfers all together.

They do it because they are MANDATED to do so, not because they particularly like it or make money off it. The more ... um ... astute retailers will charge a percentage of the value of the gun and/or sales tax for transactions (not PPT) they didn't originate to discourage the practice. They can't outright refuse however.

Cyc Wid It
08-19-2010, 11:12 AM
They do it because they are MANDATED to do so, not because they particularly like it or make money off it. The more ... um ... astute retailers will charge a percentage of the value of the gun and/or sales tax for transactions (not PPT) they didn't originate to discourage the practice. They can't outright refuse however.

Doing a transfer, which requires spending a few minutes to make a few bucks is probably better than complaining/giving people a hard time and losing customers. Some stores even offer people discounts on stuff in the store after doing a transfer there. You will see that these places get a lot of support and people tend to buy things that they may not have.

professorhard
08-19-2010, 11:23 AM
It is against the law to start a DROS before he has the gun in his possession.Call DOJ and he will be fined and his license will be suspended.It will cost him a fortune for his rude and unprofessional behavior.

It's ok not to post when ur just pulling **** out of ur ***


Knock off the personal attack.

retired

PressCheck
08-19-2010, 12:07 PM
Has this link been e-mailed to IA?

ke6guj
08-19-2010, 12:26 PM
Folks, I'll let you in on a little secret; retailers HATE private party transfers and/or transfers they didn't originate. There's no gain from their perspective and the pittance (legally they can't charge more than $25 for a FTF PPT, though some do anyway to cover their time) that they charge doesn't begin to cover the time needed to complete a transaction.
.incorrrect. For a FTF PPT, they may charge a total of $35 to the customer, $25 of which is the state DROS fee and the dealer may charge up to $10 for the transfer.



They do it because they are MANDATED to do so, not because they particularly like it or make money off it. The more ... um ... astute retailers will charge a percentage of the value of the gun and/or sales tax for transactions (not PPT) they didn't originate to discourage the practice. They can't outright refuse however.there is no Mandate that a dealer must do any transfers of any kind (except for FTF PPT transfers). There is no requirement that they do "dealer transfers", "intenet transfers", "mail-order transfers", etc.

Steyr_223
08-19-2010, 2:56 PM
Irvington Arms still gets my business. Been going there since before Martin/Ray (later Frank) took over from Gary Biller when he passed away. Since Martin has owned the shop I have never seen any rude behavior or shady activities by the staff. They have been polite/fair to all customers regardless of sex, race, orientation, political views or economic status in my presence. Heck they were even nice to the BATF lady.

:)

Regardless if the customer was a newbie or an older/experienced gunnie they treat them well from what I see. Since they have a lot of customers every day, it is possible for nerves to get frayed and for them to make mistakes. There are always at least two sides to every story.

I have purchased new, use handguns and all of my OLL rifles from them..Heck they were one of the first to do OLL sales in the SF bay area..

Martin, Frank, Dave and Rich have been good to deal with in my experience.

My $.02

spddrcr
08-19-2010, 5:19 PM
its disappointing that IA hasnt responded to this thread in an attempt to settle the matter

if they don't respond in their own vendors section why would they respond here? I like the guys at IA, i just wont do business there due to past experiences.

jlh95811
08-19-2010, 6:47 PM
Sorry to the OP that this happened to you. Did they throw away the box that it came in? Otherwise I'd find it hard to believe they would throw the bolt away since it would have some weight to it.

My guess is they grabbed the rifle and the scope since they were larger and heavier therefore easy to spot and then dumped the rest of the contents from the box.

Shops make hundreds of transactions without altercations. It's that one-in-a-hundred unfortunate incident where you can gauge a shop/shop owner's true skin.

Excellent post :thumbsup:

Agree 100%


My opinion...

1. Seller should have done a better job packing.
2. IA should have done a better job unpacking.
3. Buyer should have checked prior to leaving store.
4. DROS should not have been started before item arrived. I do this when buying a new gun from a distributor because I know the dealer will make sure I get everything. But when buying from a private party it should never been done. You want to retain the right to refuse to buy the gun until you have inspected it.

I break down the responsability for this discrepency as such...
Buyer - 50% because he allowed dros to start AND failed to inspect
Irvington - 25% because they transfered a non functional firearm and made money doing so.
Seller - 25% because it was his gun. He made the most profit out of the deal. And he clearly could have packed it a bit better.

Here's what I'd do if this were a mediation...
Irvington Arms should order a new bolt at dealer cost. They should contribute the $50 they made on the deal ONLY if the bolt cost more than $200. If not they should pay 25% off the cost.
Seller should send the buyer 25% of said dealer cost.
Buyer should pay all the rest of the cost and learn a valuable lesson.

I do not know this gun shop. I cannot judge them beyond the obvious. They should do their best to make it right but in no way should incur all costs. This thread is bad for business. The issue should have never gone this far.
You three need to work together to make it all better.

tenpercentfirearms
08-19-2010, 7:59 PM
My guess is they grabbed the rifle and the scope since they were larger and heavier therefore easy to spot and then dumped the rest of the contents from the box.



Agree 100%


My opinion...

1. Seller should have done a better job packing.
2. IA should have done a better job unpacking.
3. Buyer should have checked prior to leaving store.
4. DROS should not have been started before item arrived. I do this when buying a new gun from a distributor because I know the dealer will make sure I get everything. But when buying from a private party it should never been done. You want to retain the right to refuse to buy the gun until you have inspected it.

I break down the responsability for this discrepency as such...
Buyer - 50% because he allowed dros to start AND failed to inspect
Irvington - 25% because they transfered a non functional firearm and made money doing so.
Seller - 25% because it was his gun. He made the most profit out of the deal. And he clearly could have packed it a bit better.

Here's what I'd do if this were a mediation...
Irvington Arms should order a new bolt at dealer cost. They should contribute the $50 they made on the deal ONLY if the bolt cost more than $200. If not they should pay 25% off the cost.
Seller should send the buyer 25% of said dealer cost.
Buyer should pay all the rest of the cost and learn a valuable lesson.

I do not know this gun shop. I cannot judge them beyond the obvious. They should do their best to make it right but in no way should incur all costs. This thread is bad for business. The issue should have never gone this far.
You three need to work together to make it all better.
Excellent post.

guns_and_labs
08-19-2010, 8:53 PM
My guess is they grabbed the rifle and the scope since they were larger and heavier therefore easy to spot and then dumped the rest of the contents from the box.



I've seen them unpacking boxes. They are far more careful than the OP, even when peanuts are spewing and the air is clogged with paper dust.

If they say there wasn't a bolt in there -- having seen their procedures -- I see no reason to immediately suppose that they are the offending party.

IMHO, it's the responsibility of the buyer to be there for the unpacking and to check the packing slip. The FFL just needs a serial number.

jlh95811
08-19-2010, 10:11 PM
Excellent post.

:blush5:

I've seen them unpacking boxes. They are far more careful than the OP, even when peanuts are spewing and the air is clogged with paper dust.

If they say there wasn't a bolt in there -- having seen their procedures -- I see no reason to immediately suppose that they are the offending party.

IMHO, it's the responsibility of the buyer to be there for the unpacking and to check the packing slip. The FFL just needs a serial number.

This is the primary reason that Irvington Arms has some fault in the matter. I've never had an FFL open a package I've had transfered without me being present whether it be froma private party or from a distributor.

FS00008
08-20-2010, 12:13 AM
You know, if they'd get rid of Frank (I mean kick his butt to the curb) and hire more professionals, like Martin, I'd probably shop there. But Frank is a moody jerk and I don't like spending money that I know may go to his pocket.

ke6guj
08-20-2010, 12:15 AM
:blush5:



This is the primary reason that Irvington Arms has some fault in the matter. I've never had an FFL open a package I've had transfered without me being present whether it be froma private party or from a distributor.as mentioned before, IA had less than 48hrs before they had to open the package in order to log the firearm in. Since the OP started the DROS before the shipment came in, IA could not wait for the OP to come in at the end of his ten day wait, so that they had to open up the package.

If I had to guess, I'd say that most of the mail-ordered firearms I've run through transfer dealers have had the packages opened, so that they could log in the firearm, at least half of them, might be more than 75% of them, never really kept track of it since I expect that the package will be opened before I get there.

audiophil2
08-20-2010, 1:49 AM
After I got the rifle and took it home I immediately took everything out and then found out the bolt was missing. I should have looked at it at the store, but it wouldn't have made a difference. There is no way that it was lost after I took possession of it and I called less than 2 hours after picking it up from the store.

If I had found out the bolt was missing while still in the store, I believe they would have told me they would look for it and then eventually I'd be in the exact same position I am in now.



You do not know if the outcome would have been the same. Even if it was, at least you could have taken all liability off yourself.
I worked in government regulations and what this boils down to is called "chain of custody". You are the last link in the chain and therefore all liability falls on you.

Your second big mistake was airing this out in public. You now forced IA to clam up because if they help you will come back saying you got your part replaced. That will open the floodgates for scammers.

G60
08-20-2010, 7:49 AM
IA sucks. I met someone from the boards a couple years back to do a PPT, was looking forward to it hearing all the positive feedback on here. When we arrived in the store to do the PPT whoever worked there said 'If I have to!' like a rotten child who was just told to clean his room or eat his peas. Sorry buddy I know you weren't gonna make any profit on the deal but we all do things in our jobs we don't want to. I you don't like it, stfu or find another job.

FelixEstrella
08-20-2010, 8:08 AM
IA sucks. I met someone from the boards a couple years back to do a PPT, was looking forward to it hearing all the positive feedback on here. When we arrived in the store to do the PPT whoever worked there said 'If I have to!' like a rotten child who was just told to clean his room or eat his peas. Sorry buddy I know you weren't gonna make any profit on the deal but we all do things in our jobs we don't want to. I you don't like it, stfu or find another job.

You never heard of sarcasm?

Honestly, the whining ..... "Aw he looked at me funny!"

If you want premium service, find someone who charges a premium price. There are plenty of transfer-only dealers around who'll charge more than what IA does. IA runs a business and they do transfers as a service to the community.

biglou
08-20-2010, 11:08 AM
There are always at least two sides to every story.


Exactly, we are all waiting for the other side of the story.

rg_1111@yahoo.com
08-20-2010, 11:50 AM
A little off topic. I bet everyone that read's this thread will check there Rifles for bolts at the FFL.

Good Post.

Cyc Wid It
08-20-2010, 6:37 PM
You never heard of sarcasm?

Honestly, the whining ..... "Aw he looked at me funny!"

If you want premium service, find someone who charges a premium price. There are plenty of transfer-only dealers around who'll charge more than what IA does. IA runs a business and they do transfers as a service to the community.

You know there's a transfer only dealer less than 5 minutes from IA that's way more accommodating/polite with cheaper prices. Just saying...

scotthmt
08-20-2010, 6:47 PM
I stopped going there when Ian left. Wonder why he left...

NorCalMama
08-20-2010, 7:03 PM
If it's this one-
http://local.yahoo.com/info-21426712-irvington-arms-fremont?tab=reviews#reviews

Then it looks like a lot of people are unhappy with IA... what a shame!

-hanko
08-20-2010, 7:21 PM
If it's this one-
http://local.yahoo.com/info-21426712-irvington-arms-fremont?tab=reviews#reviews

Then it looks like a lot of people are unhappy with IA... what a shame!
...when it opened, it got mega-praise for best customer service, great prices, etc.

Wth happened??:(

=hanko

jlh95811
08-20-2010, 7:22 PM
Those are some pretty bad reviews.

Malthusian
08-20-2010, 7:32 PM
Been to IA
No complaints
Every person is going to have a different experience

I bought my Dillon press there and an offer was made to help me set it up at my house

That is my definition of "service"

jlh95811
08-20-2010, 7:37 PM
Guess that proves the fact that a dissatisfied customer will tell far more people than a satisfied customer. If the percentage of those dissatisfied outweighed the satisfied by a margin shown by those reviews they would be out of business by now. The fact that they are not shows that they do treat at least some people right and therefor have a steady customer base.

guns_and_labs
08-20-2010, 7:42 PM
This is the primary reason that Irvington Arms has some fault in the matter. I've never had an FFL open a package I've had transfered without me being present whether it be froma private party or from a distributor.

Yes, but they did the guy a favor by starting the DROS early. That's for the OP's convenience, not theirs. So, then he leaves it until the 10 days are up... and then he whines that it must be someone else's fault. Pshaw. The sales contract is between buyer and seller - by starting the DROS, the buyer relieves the FFL of all responsibility of waiting for the buyer to verify what's in the box. They have to open it up to get the serial number. It's wholly and completely the OP's fault. IMHO, of course, but I have as much right to an opinion as the OP.

Besides, I refuse to believe that Dave can't tell the difference between a packing peanut and a rifle bolt. It's more likely still on the seller's workbench.

jlh95811
08-20-2010, 7:48 PM
Yes, but they did the guy a favor by starting the DROS early. That's for the OP's convenience, not theirs. So, then he leaves it until the 10 days are up... and then he whines that it must be someone else's fault. Pshaw. The sales contract is between buyer and seller - by starting the DROS, the buyer relieves the FFL of all responsibility of waiting for the buyer to verify what's in the box. They have to open it up to get the serial number. It's wholly and completely the OP's fault. IMHO, of course, but I have as much right to an opinion as the OP.

Besides, I refuse to believe that Dave can't tell the difference between a packing peanut and a rifle bolt. It's more likely still on the seller's workbench.

ahemm

Malthusian
08-20-2010, 7:49 PM
Realize that an FFL only has a limited timeframe in which he can have that firearm boxed up like that. The firearm needs to be logged into his bound book, so he has to open the package as some point (24-48 hours) in order to note the serial number, make, model, etc

edit: normally, they must log it in by the end of the next business day, but if it comes with a commercial record (sounds like it would be to be invoiced from a dealer with all the important info on the record), they have up to 7 days to log it in. So, in the OP's case, it appears that there would have been no "commercial record" so it would need to be logged in by the end of the next day, so they had to open the package. That doesn't excuse losing parts though.

Just wanted to repost this to clarify why the box "had to be opened"
I usually open the box in front of the FFL
But I am there the day of arrival

scobun
08-20-2010, 7:49 PM
I don't do business with anybody whose attitude is "too bad" when a deal goes south. Irvington just doesn't care about customers when things go badly, and they've made that known.

I know that dealers don't like transfers, but I've done a few at Tracy Rifle and Pistol and J&R Sports. PPTs drove me to have to go in their store, and they were both great shops that were helpful and wanted to get me taken care of. I bought some odds and ends (high margin accessory type stuff) because they treated me well and took care of me quickly.

psango
08-20-2010, 8:31 PM
Some places like J&R Sports and others are very gracious about doing PPT's (which cost them time and money) and that is why they get my cash business when I need to buy a new gun rather than buying it off the internet. It is too bad that dealers can no longer easily buy and stock used guns not on the roster.

It's an unfair position to put a retailer in. If the state wants to regulate private transfers then they should set up their own facilities for completing the transactions and not shove it of on FFL dealers. My 2 cents.

But I too would be PO'd if a dealer lost a major component to my firearm and didn't own up to it. What a spot do be in for both the op and dealer. I hope it ends well!

Wildhawk66
08-21-2010, 7:02 AM
I'm sorry, but all I've ever gotten from Irvington Arms is a bunch of shady looks and a BAD attitude. For a Firearms Industry that always needs help, you would think stores would GET something as BASIC as customer service. I felt NO respect during my entire experience there.

This was my experience 3 or 4 times in a row. I havent been back in years and don't plan on going again.

FelixEstrella
08-21-2010, 9:08 AM
Just for the record: in the past 3 years, I've bought approx. half-a-dozen guns from IA and done that many PPT (both as seller and buyer) and have never felt unappreciated. But then again I understand what sarcasm and a little good natured banter is and don't get bent out of shape about "bad attitude" and "shady looks".

psango
08-21-2010, 11:43 AM
I had no trouble with IA on 2 PPT's but the the loss of the parts troubles me. I've even have done PPT's at OLD WEST GUN ROOM without incident. I'm and old gray haired retired LEO. I think some of the FFL's profile people based on their appearance and provide desperate treatment based on that.

Eljay
09-01-2010, 7:25 AM
Are there any updates on this? I'd like to know if they made things right or not.

TMC
09-01-2010, 8:01 AM
You’re basically saying one of three things, all of which are unacceptable. 1) Alex, you’re a liar and trying to screw me out of a bolt. 2) The seller of the rifle is a liar. Or, 3) My guy might have thrown it away, but tough nuts because I value the $50 I made over whatever future business you and your friends will bring me.



4) you lost it somewhere between the store and your house? or are you completely infalible and never loose anything but everybody else does?

Just a thought

I've shipped lots of different stuff and I would never pack a bolt loose in a box full of packing material. Taping it to the stock or something would have been a good idea.

Steyr_223
09-01-2010, 9:57 AM
Per the IA rep this has been resolved. See this other thread on the Irvington Arms forum.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=333208

There have been no further posts from seller and customer so it appears resolved between all parties.

nrgcruizer
09-01-2010, 10:25 AM
To OP: I'm in the same situation with a different part of a gun that I PPT'd recently. Mine doesn't hurt, as much as, yours. But it's the principle. I'm being patient to see if it gets resolved before posting. I have read in the past of nightmare scenarios where a pistol that was clean came back dirty after 10days when it got PPT'd at a range.

As for me, it's not about the money anymore. It's the principle. We are required to wait 10 days by law. During those 10 days, our personal property is under the care & custody of the FFL. We should be able to walk out of every FFLs door with confidence that everything is still there and as it was originally presented.

I was going to go to Irvington Arms for a visit. No longer the case.

guns_and_labs
09-02-2010, 12:56 PM
Just finished another pleasant transaction at IA. Everything was exactly as it should be, went the way that it should, they answered all my stupid questions, etc. Didn't even have to wait that long.

norcal.xd
09-02-2010, 3:52 PM
that sux to hear... my .380 is up there right now till saturday... i traded my bolt action rifle for it but i keep the bolt in so i knew for sure it was there... you would think the owner would get you one just out of pure customer satisfaction...

FelixEstrella
09-02-2010, 3:57 PM
that sux to hear... my .380 is up there right now till saturday... i traded my bolt action rifle for it but i keep the bolt in so i knew for sure it was there... you would think the owner would get you one just out of pure customer satisfaction...

Think how satisfied customers would be if IA just started handing out freebies .... honestly folks ..... try running a business.

FS00008
09-02-2010, 5:57 PM
Felix,

Think how satisfied customers would be if IA didn't have so many jackwagons working there. I've been put off of IA forever now. Especially with Valkyrie Arms opening up.

FelixEstrella
09-02-2010, 6:01 PM
Felix,

Think how satisfied customers would be if IA didn't have so many jackwagons working there. I've been put off of IA forever now. Especially with Valkyrie Arms opening up.

[Shug] YMMV. Like I said, I've never had a problem with IA, any employee there or any transaction I've completed there or with them. I've always been treated politely, professionally and in a way that makes me want to come back.

Malthusian
09-02-2010, 6:09 PM
I like IA
In fact this thread has given me the impetus to head up tomorrow and give them some more business

Try running a FFL business. It is not easy

dwtt
09-02-2010, 6:45 PM
(much deleted)

I called up Irvington Arms of Fremont, CA and had them take a look for the bolt. I talked to Dave and he told me he was the one who unpacked the rifle. He told me that the box had been jammed to the brim with packing materials and he had to take everything out of the box just so he could check the serial on the rifle. I told him about the missing bolt situation and he got pretty defensive about it but he said he would take look.


There's the problem. I used to live about a mile from Irvington Arms and bought from there when Martin ran the place. After Dave started working behind the counter I decided to go else where.
In the future, use Rob Blank in Milpitas for FFL transfers. He's never screwed up any transfers for me.

rojocorsa
09-02-2010, 6:51 PM
Folks, I'll let you in on a little secret; retailers HATE private party transfers and/or transfers they didn't originate. There's no gain from their perspective and the pittance (legally they can't charge more than $25 for a FTF PPT, though some do anyway to cover their time) that they charge doesn't begin to cover the time needed to complete a transaction.

That retailers do these types of transfers anyway is laudable.

That this community (Calguns) would pile on IA and demand that they make it right is pitiful.

I think I've said in every reply - I realize I should have checked it before I left. So, moving on.

Felix, just about every gun store does transfers. Low margin or not, they do it and they make money off it. If they are too unhappy about doing them to offer customer service then they should stop doing transfers all together.

They do it because they are MANDATED to do so, not because they particularly like it or make money off it. The more ... um ... astute retailers will charge a percentage of the value of the gun and/or sales tax for transactions (not PPT) they didn't originate to discourage the practice. They can't outright refuse however.


In my opinion, it sucks that the FFL system even has to exist. I have reason to believe the OP buyer and the seller on this one. I also trust the opinions of FS00008 so this thread put me off IA.

scotthmt
09-02-2010, 7:55 PM
Felix,

if the shop offered guns that weren't marked up 40% over MSRP, maybe they wouldn't do so. It's not cost effective to do an out of state transfer, and yet people do so still. Do you seriously wonder why? Shops are nickle and dimeing us to death. Also, some IA clown screwed with a pistol I PPT'd a few months ago and they never responded to a polite e-mail asking for them to not do it again and to acknowledge the issue. I will never shop at IA again unless they get rid of Frank and seriously modify their attitude. I know how a PPT works, having actually been on the dealer side many times in the past. The guy acted as if he was the be-all end all of firearms. I was prepared to go down and buy an Upper, and possibly a few other firearms. Frank's treatment of me, and how they screwed with my pistol and didn't admit it have made me never ever want to spend money there again. The OP's experience does not surprise me.

Frank does have a 'holy-er than thou' attitude. Hes just a bald blind old fat guy who sits behidn the desk and looks down upon his customers and when talked to he acts as if he's being bothered. I dislike him aswell, everyone else is alright though.

Turbinator
09-02-2010, 8:21 PM
Try running a FFL business. It is not easy

+1

Just reading this thread makes me want to try running a gun shop just to see if I'd even do it right... I'd probably get worse reviews than IA and Turners combined..

Turby

eeeeman
09-02-2010, 10:21 PM
As a sales rep I know how to treat repeat customers and never take them for granite. Always go the extra mile to keep the business
.The thing is when you are treated as though you are not needed then its time to go else where.I have found the stores that like my repeat business and this is not the case anymore with Big Rich at Irvington arms. I simply shop esle where.

tteng
09-03-2010, 12:13 AM
Insurance: I've always included shipping insurance as part of transaction; just never had to collect on them so far. It might (or not) help in this case.

TRICKSTER
09-03-2010, 1:08 AM
I don't understand how anyone here can say for sure who is at fault for the missing bolt. None of us were there when the seller packed the item, when IA opened the item or when the OP picked up the item and took it home. For all we know, the bolt could have been stolen during shipping. I also don't understand how the OP could leave the store without making sure he got what he payed for. Besides the bolt issue, the rifle or scope could have been damaged. If that had been the case, would IA have also been flamed on this board without any proof. IA was just the transfer dealer, maybe they could have handled it better, but in the end, the buyer is responsible to make sure he received the merchandise that he was paying for.

ivanimal
09-03-2010, 1:24 AM
Irvington arms has always been top notch to me. If you are having issues they always look for a solution. I dont think there is a better gun store out there.

But what do I know I have only bought 15 or so guns there over the years.

guns_and_labs
09-03-2010, 12:50 PM
Especially with Valkyrie Arms opening up.

Good luck to them. So far, every store in the Bay Area gets trashed by someone with an entitlement disorder pretty quickly on this site. It will be interesting how long their honeymoon is.

I haven't seen a website for them. Are they offering free transfers 24 hours a day, and accepting old parking tickets as proof of residence? Seems like they should, if they want to earn our business the next time we want to avoid their inventory and order a gun from CDNN.

Teddy
09-03-2010, 3:44 PM
That sucks...sorry for the problems. I do have to say that Martin is a good guy, I understand that you are not happy, and I get it, but from the shop owners point of view, sadly, on a shipped in transfer they are not going to have the same level of commitment to "parts" or "condition" as they will have if you are purchasing a firearm from them. In a "he-said she-said" situation like this when there is no actual retail transaction....rarely will a retailer step up and cover missing parts. They certainly did not pull the bolt out of the box and toss it in the garbage.....so from their perspective it was never there. It may have been....but perception is 9/10th of reality and the reality is they never saw it. Honestly, knowing nothing about shipping firearms, I'd assume that all removed parts should be individually wrapped, then adhered to the firearm in some fashion (like tape...hahaha) to keep everything together.

Again, sorry you had a bad experience. I know the folks at IA aren't going to bowl you over with gushy greetings and super social skills......but they are good people and do TRY to treat people fairly. Tough spot though, no doubt.

Inkman
09-03-2010, 7:52 PM
Good luck to them. So far, every store in the Bay Area gets trashed by someone with an entitlement disorder pretty quickly on this site. It will be interesting how long their honeymoon is.

I haven't seen a website for them. Are they offering free transfers 24 hours a day, and accepting old parking tickets as proof of residence? Seems like they should, if they want to earn our business the next time we want to avoid their inventory and order a gun from CDNN.

LOLOLOL :smilielol5:

Couldn't have summed it up better!!

Al

Eljay
09-04-2010, 11:49 AM
Per the IA rep this has been resolved. See this other thread on the Irvington Arms forum.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=333208

There have been no further posts from seller and customer so it appears resolved between all parties.

You know, IA unilaterally asserting it's been resolved isn't exactly reassuring. It would be really nice if OP would come back and say if HE has been satisfied or not.

Personally I bought my last three or four guns at IA but that was a while back - it sounds from some of the posts like things have changed. I'm planning on picking up one more before the end of the year and this thread is definitely enough to make me check out the other bay area options first.

rojocorsa
09-04-2010, 12:59 PM
I'm honestly wondering if there is a correlation between the ages of the satisfied and unsatisfied customers--know what I mean?

I had no trouble with IA on 2 PPT's but the the loss of the parts troubles me. I've even have done PPT's at OLD WEST GUN ROOM without incident. I'm and old gray haired retired LEO. I think some of the FFL's profile people based on their appearance and provide desperate treatment based on that.

This gentleman's post (who has the awesome bear avatar) makes me wonder...

Also, as a younger guy myself, I'm wary of COG (crusty old guys, usually grumpy) behind gun counters and tables at shows. I say this from what I've personally experienced.

Obviously, I want to do business with the guy who won't act like an ******* or like it's a chore to speak with customers---or that "know it all" attitude.

It's sad to say this, but in my experience, "customer service" and "gun stores" do not belong in the same sentence. I hope this will all change when I visit Valkyrie in Milpitas.

jlh95811
09-04-2010, 3:37 PM
You know, IA unilaterally asserting it's been resolved isn't exactly reassuring. It would be really nice if OP would come back and say if HE has been satisfied or not.

Personally I bought my last three or four guns at IA but that was a while back - it sounds from some of the posts like things have changed. I'm planning on picking up one more before the end of the year and this thread is definitely enough to make me check out the other bay area options first.

I've spoken to the OP via PM a few times.
IA said they will order a new bolt for him. He is under the impression that they will pay the total cost as they ordered it without telling him it would cost him anything.
I am assuming he is waiting until he has the bolt in hand before he updates the status of the discrepency. You never know what can happen if you count your chickens before they hatch.

So at least we know that IA is finally working with the OP in some way to resolve the issue instead of telling him to pound sand.

Eljay
09-19-2010, 8:19 PM
So at least we know that IA is finally working with the OP in some way to resolve the issue instead of telling him to pound sand.

Well, I hope you're right, but given the uncertainty I thought I might as well check out the other places at about the same distance and ended up buying from J&R in Livermore. Nice folks.

simple schoolboy
03-27-2011, 8:07 PM
in regards to IA, ive had nothing but good experiances there, the older guy used to have an attitude but after some complaints i noticed he is much more polite and helpful.

As of 2/11 he still has a terrible attitude, but maybe he just didn't like me. He was fine until I put money down and then he was terribly rude. Its as if he's trying to get one of his customers into a murderous rage so they put him out of his misery.

Based on the number of positive reviews, I can only gather that he is not like this all of the time. It may be race and age specific so if you are also a knowledgeable (but defer to his greatness) middle aged white man, you might have an acceptable experience with him.

The younger guy and the woman there were both helpful and friendly. Its a shame I wasn't able to deal more with them.

API
03-27-2011, 8:28 PM
I'd probably get worse reviews than IA and Turners combined..

That'll be the day. Turners has already lapped the field several times. You could never catch them.

ninjawho?
03-27-2011, 9:42 PM
I'm sorry, but all I've ever gotten from Irvington Arms is a bunch of shady looks and a BAD attitude. For a Firearms Industry that always needs help, you would think stores would GET something as BASIC as customer service. I felt NO respect during my entire experience there.

Frank does have a 'holy-er than thou' attitude. Hes just a bald blind old fat guy who sits behidn the desk and looks down upon his customers and when talked to he acts as if he's being bothered. I dislike him aswell, everyone else is alright though.Went in there twice just to see if the first time was a fluke.....first time made no attempt at helping me find the gun I wanted......second time walked in with $1200 bucks in my pocket to buy a gun that day...they were so rude I lasted like 5 minutes and walked out.....was the only one in the store with 3 employees....i was very courteous,polite,and clean cut.....same result...ended up going to reeds had a very pleasant experience contrary to what people say of that place.....will never go back to IA or have work done on my pistols no matter how "good" their work is....will go to reeds though....
T

coyotebait
03-28-2011, 7:08 AM
I understand that the shop has to open it up to get the serial number. If it had been me opening it, I would have stuffed all the packing crap back in the box.....but then again, I don't work at a gun shop.:rolleyes:

Steyr_223
03-28-2011, 10:56 AM
Strange, I goto IA at least once a week. Never seen rudeness by the staff..They have a diverse group of customers from highly paid professionals, retirees, armed services personal, young, old, poor, rich, unemployed, gun experts and gun novices, blacks, white, Asian, Hispanic, Arabic/middle eastern, Indian, men, women, Liberals, Democrats, Conservative, TEA party, Republicans, gay, lesbian and transgender etc...


Everyone can have a bad day and I have seen some rude, ignorant and abrasive customers there but the staff handled them professionally IMHO. Some of the more abrasive customers I would have asked to leave..

If you have issues with staff talk to Martin or Frank, the two owners..Annie in the IA forum is Martin's wife..If there are legit issues, I am sure it can be worked out..

martin@irvingtonarms.com
frank@irvingtonarms.com


http://www.irvingtonarms.com/html/about_us.html

guns_and_labs
03-28-2011, 7:18 PM
Frank does have a 'holy-er than thou' attitude. Hes just a bald blind old fat guy who sits behidn the desk and looks down upon his customers and when talked to he acts as if he's being bothered. I dislike him aswell, everyone else is alright though.

Has it been mentioned yet that Frank is not blind, old, or fat? If he was, I could probably beat him occasionally at the USPSA matches.

well206
03-28-2011, 7:38 PM
Been to IA a couple of times with some pistol repair and maintenance questions. Also checked out a few firearms. I was always treated fairly. No complaints on my end.

JayBeeJay
04-05-2011, 8:54 PM
My first couple visits to IA, I got the vibe that they werent interested in my business and would be happy if I left their store. After a couple visits picking stuff up I needed (their the closest gun store to me) they were actually pretty cool. Don't remember their names, but the older bald headed guy even helped me knock a roll pin out one of my lowers because my punch was broken. Called them up he told me to bring it down and helped me out free of charge.

bruceflinch
04-06-2011, 1:30 PM
As of 2/11 he still has a terrible attitude, but maybe he just didn't like me. He was fine until I put money down and then he was terribly rude. Its as if he's trying to get one of his customers into a murderous rage so they put him out of his misery.

Based on the number of positive reviews, I can only gather that he is not like this all of the time. It may be race and age specific so if you are also a knowledgeable (but defer to his greatness) middle aged white man, you might have an acceptable experience with him.

The younger guy and the woman there were both helpful and friendly. Its a shame I wasn't able to deal more with them.

You're a 2 yr member w/ 6 posts & the best you can do is Necropost a 6 month old thread? Shame on you.

Eljay
04-06-2011, 4:09 PM
You're a 2 yr member w/ 6 posts & the best you can do is Necropost a 6 month old thread? Shame on you.

Yeah, I still have concerns about the original post (did that ever get resolved?) but I think this recent bump sounds more like a personal vendetta.