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View Full Version : The history of your C&R Rifle, can you track it?


NagantHunter
05-03-2006, 5:30 PM
I posted this in another thread, and it got kinda lost as it was off topic.

I'm new to the whole C&R thing and was wondering - does anyone have any resources for tracking the history of our old C&R's? I'm particularly interested in tracking down the history of my old Mosin Nagant 91/30. Did the USSR keep any records on the disposition and issuance of weapons?:confused:

Any info on other makes would be welcome as well, as I intend to collect as many of them as I can! :D

NH

BigMac
05-03-2006, 7:55 PM
Here is a brief idea of how soviet weapons were treated.

You, take this rifle.

You, take this ammunition. When he gets killed you pick up the rifle.

You can however learn alot about where a rifle may have have gone, or been captured by the differnt stampings on it. Also where it was made or converted.

If you really want to learn more I'd spend some quality time at surplusrifle.com

I like my 20's stamped

fal_762x51
05-03-2006, 11:54 PM
I would think that all Mosin saw action one time or another. Whether it be the Russo-Jap War, The Revolution, WW1, Russo-Finnish War (1 and 2), WWII, then any later conflict. A good number of M44 with WWII dates probably saw action Berlin.

These are not like the K31 with the data sheets or Yugo SKSs, damn.

NeoWeird
05-04-2006, 12:02 AM
I asked a similar question a while ago about CMP weapons and if there were any records kept as to where shipments went, what branches were issued what manufacture runs, etc. The general concensus was that there really is no order to it. Back then they didn't have computers to log stuff, and "they had more important things to do than keep a paper trail; like win a war".

There is however an online database of US weapons that is being slowly gathered. The people behind it collect serial number data when they find it and enter it in. I have yet to find a rifle whose serial number they have, but they have enough (maybe 1 in 5 on average) to give you a basic idea of where it went. For example it will say something like x1 US Navy Coast Guard, x4 US Navy Coast Guard, x5 US Navy Coast Guard, x6 US Navy Coast Guard, X8 CMP Rifle Sales, x9 CMP Rifle Sales, etc. So it gives you an idea of the last place it was. Obviously if you purchased it from the CMP then you will have a pretty good idea of where it was last, but for other firearms you may find a gem.

If I can find it, I will post it.

ETA: Here it is: http://www.armscollectors.com/srs.htm

Fate
05-04-2006, 12:02 PM
f you really want to learn more I'd spend some quality time at surplusrifle.com
Generally, the posters at surplusrifle.com know jack when it comes to Mosins. Far better to visit gunboards.com if you're looking for real info on history.

Russian Mosins will be harder to pinpoint "where" they served unless they have Finnish "capture" markings (SA). Finn Mosins that served in Civil Guard districts can be traced by the CG numbers stamped on the barrel or receiver (S######). Some Finn rifles also have brass or zinc unit discs. Those too can help you figure out where your rifle has been.

mblat
05-04-2006, 1:42 PM
Here is a brief idea of how soviet weapons were treated.

You, take this rifle.

You, take this ammunition. When he gets killed you pick up the rifle.

You can however learn alot about where a rifle may have have gone, or been captured by the differnt stampings on it. Also where it was made or converted.

If you really want to learn more I'd spend some quality time at surplusrifle.com

I like my 20's stamped

You are watching too many Hollywood movies. One thing Soviet military NEVER had any lack of is an equipment and ammunition. Where do you think all those Mosins coming from and why are they still under $100? And will remain this way for any foreseeable future?
Quality of this equipment and how it was used/cared for/tracked – is the different story, but soldiers going into offensive with one rifle for 3 persons is a legend. Such things could happen in November/December 1941 when Germans were 40 miles from Moscow...... and a lot of the Moscow male population was organized in militia... But later on..... That is bull.

icormba
05-04-2006, 3:27 PM
I just use my imagination and make up the history of my C & R's :)
it's especially fun with my Garands ;)

BigMac
05-04-2006, 4:11 PM
You are watching too many Hollywood movies. One thing Soviet military NEVER had any lack of is an equipment and ammunition. Where do you think all those Mosins coming from and why are they still under $100? And will remain this way for any foreseeable future?
Quality of this equipment and how it was used/cared for/tracked – is the different story, but soldiers going into offensive with one rifle for 3 persons is a legend. Such things could happen in November/December 1941 when Germans were 40 miles from Moscow...... and a lot of the Moscow male population was organized in militia... But later on..... That is bull.

Your proabably right, and they didn't shoot people for retreating either.

NagantHunter
05-04-2006, 7:17 PM
I asked a similar question a while ago about CMP weapons and if there were any records kept as to where shipments went, what branches were issued what manufacture runs, etc. The general concensus was that there really is no order to it. Back then they didn't have computers to log stuff, and "they had more important things to do than keep a paper trail; like win a war".

There is however an online database of US weapons that is being slowly gathered. The people behind it collect serial number data when they find it and enter it in. I have yet to find a rifle whose serial number they have, but they have enough (maybe 1 in 5 on average) to give you a basic idea of where it went. For example it will say something like x1 US Navy Coast Guard, x4 US Navy Coast Guard, x5 US Navy Coast Guard, x6 US Navy Coast Guard, X8 CMP Rifle Sales, x9 CMP Rifle Sales, etc. So it gives you an idea of the last place it was. Obviously if you purchased it from the CMP then you will have a pretty good idea of where it was last, but for other firearms you may find a gem.

If I can find it, I will post it.

ETA: Here it is: http://www.armscollectors.com/srs.htm


Thanks for the info Neo!!!

mblat
05-05-2006, 11:22 AM
Your proabably right, and they didn't shoot people for retreating either.

Shooting deserters happened to be long standing tradition in any military. There are well documented episodes of British executing member of retreating troops during Battle of the Somme. Also there are a few references to so called “battle police” whose only purpose was to force man to leave trenches. Of cause, Bolsheviks took that to new level, but they didn’t invent it. As far as I know, in Russian military first DOCUMENTED case of such practice was introduced by Peter the Great during Russian-Sweden war in 17??.
BTW – I don’t deny existing of such policy in Soviet military and I don’t defend neither the practice, nor Communists. It just history isn’t that simple as many of us would like to believe.
Regardless - however grotesque such policy is, and however criminal Russian Communist regime was - what this has anything to do with amount of weapons Soviet military had?

icormba
05-05-2006, 12:46 PM
It just history isn’t that simple as many of us would like to believe.

History is very simple... we, as a people, are just retarded because it always repeats itself. ;) :)


by the way... the onset of Operation Uranus... The Soviets had more of a people surplus than they had a weapons surplus. (well... according to what I read on the internet, but that's not always correct)

in combat = ~1.44 million men
total rifles = ~868k
total smgs = ~158k

mblat
05-05-2006, 1:44 PM
History is very simple... we, as a people, are just retarded because it always repeats itself. ;) :)

ditto to that! :)

by the way... the onset of Operation Uranus... The Soviets had more of a people surplus than they had a weapons surplus. (well... according to what I read on the internet, but that's not always correct)

in combat = ~1.44 million men
total rifles = ~868k
total smgs = ~158k


intresting..... that figure 1.44 mil. does it cover infantry forces only or includes for example artillery, tanks, airforce, medical personal? One can hardly argue that figther pilot needs a rifle to fly :-) or that they should have 3 rfiles in one tank.....

icormba
05-05-2006, 4:52 PM
ditto to that! :)



intresting..... that figure 1.44 mil. does it cover infantry forces only or includes for example artillery, tanks, airforce, medical personal? One can hardly argue that figther pilot needs a rifle to fly :-) or that they should have 3 rfiles in one tank.....

Good point! I didn't include artillery, tanks, or airplanes... but it still wouldn't make up the ~400k difference, but it does make a dent.
12.5k artillery pieces
3k tanks
41k other vehicles
260k horses! (most probably pulling artillery pieces? so I'm thinking the men running them are the arty guys too?)
0 planes

The Soviet manpower numbers in general are amazing... that and the nice cold weather ;)

mblat
05-05-2006, 6:26 PM
Good point! I didn't include artillery, tanks, or airplanes... but it still wouldn't make up the ~400k difference, but it does make a dent.
12.5k artillery pieces
3k tanks
41k other vehicles
260k horses! (most probably pulling artillery pieces? so I'm thinking the men running them are the arty guys too?)
0 planes

The Soviet manpower numbers in general are amazing... that and the nice cold weather ;)


can you give me the link?

CowtownBallin
05-08-2006, 8:34 AM
Here is a brief idea of how soviet weapons were treated.

You, take this rifle.

You, take this ammunition. When he gets killed you pick up the rifle.



Ah, another person getting their history lesson from Enemy At The Gates :D