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x-ring
05-03-2006, 2:23 PM
Can anyone point me to the regs regarding shipping of a handgun to an out of state dealer/gunsmith? Must it be done through an FFL locally? I have the recipient's blue ink signed copy in hand.

I've only shipped long guns in the past...and they were all done on my C&R. As far as I know, some shippers require overnighting...but I don't know if this is a CYA policy or some sort of implementation of a state/federal statute.

CAL DOJ is a maze/minefield and the Fed regs are just as bad.

Thanks in advance for informed replies.

bwiese
05-03-2006, 2:39 PM
You may ship your handgun directly to your out-of-state gunsmith:


you do NOT have to go thru an intermediate CA FFL;
smith must have a current valid FFL (check w/BATF E-Z-Check website);
it is not an assault weapon in CA;
do not use US Mail to ship handgun;


You should declare item as a firearm to shipper.

If the handgun is a (legal, registered) assault weapon not banned by name, you can remove any evil features and ship it as an ordinary gun. If it is banned by name, you must use a CA FFL that holds an AW permit to do the shipping, unless you drive it out of CA and ship/receive there.

striker3
05-03-2006, 2:55 PM
Also, there is nothing in the Federal law that I have found which states that you must ship a handgun overnight. Unfortunatly all of the carriers who do ship handguns make shipping overnight a requirement.

trbon8r
05-03-2006, 8:38 PM
I was told by an un-named gunsmith that does a lot of mail order work, that you are not required by any federal law to ship a handgun overnight. Furthermore you are not required by law to let them know it is indeed a firearm that you are shipping. This applies to Fed Ex and UPS. You cannot ship a handgun by U.S. mail unless you are a dealer.

The trouble is, if you try to avoid the outrageous overnight shipping charges by not declaring the package as a handgun, UPS or Fed Ex will almost certainly deny any potential claim if the handgun is lost or damaged. I won't debate whether this would be a good idea or not; you'll have to decide.

Keep in mind, I had to fight like hell to get Fed Ex to pay a legitimate claim on some classic car parts that they mangled, so don't expect a cent if you don't tell the truth about what is inside.

You pays and you takes your chances.

striker3
05-03-2006, 9:26 PM
The trouble is, if you try to avoid the outrageous overnight shipping charges by not declaring the package as a handgun, UPS or Fed Ex will almost certainly deny any potential claim if the handgun is lost or damaged. I won't debate whether this would be a good idea or not; you'll have to decide.

You pays and you takes your chances.


Exactly. I looked up the rates to ship a handgun just the other day. It's $41 for overnight and $24 for 2nd day air. I would gladly pay the extra $17 to know that I have a way to make a claim when something happens to the $500 handgun. But to each his own.

EBWhite
05-03-2006, 10:02 PM
No matter what happens, if the company damages your property, no matter how it is shipped they must pay the claim.

Yute
05-03-2006, 10:11 PM
Question: has anyone had to show a copy of the FFL to the shipping clerk/person you hand the package? Or is just nice to have in case? I am trying to send a rifle off to a smith, and I am not sure if I should get a copy of his ffl. Thanks!

striker3
05-03-2006, 11:17 PM
No matter what happens, if the company damages your property, no matter how it is shipped they must pay the claim.

Not according to the Fed Ex Terms and Conditions:

http://www.fedex.com/us/services/terms/us.html

Look at section 15:

Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service.

Then look at section 18 C:
We will not be liable for, nor will any adjustment, refund or credit of any kind be given as a result of, any loss, damage, delay, misdelivery, nondelivery, misinformation or failure to provide information caused by or resulting in whole or in part from:

C: Your violation of any of the terms and conditions contained in the FedEx Express Terms and Conditions, as amended or supplemented, or on an airbill, including, but not limited to, the improper or insufficient packing, securing, marking and addressing of shipments, or use of an account number not in good credit standing, or failure to give notices in the manner and time prescribed.

They can say that since you did not disclose that it was a firearm being shipped, and did not ship it overnight air, that they were not able to take the nessacary actions to safeguard it.

Now whether or not they would say that I do not know. But for myself, I would rather pay the extra money.

bountyhunter
05-04-2006, 3:10 PM
I was told by an un-named gunsmith that does a lot of mail order work, that you are not required by any federal law to ship a handgun overnight. Furthermore you are not required by law to let them know it is indeed a firearm that you are shipping. Yes, you are. It's fraud because they ask you to specify the contents. If you don't declare it as a gun, it's lying. And BTW: if it is lost or stolen and you declared it falsely, you have no claim to get re-imbursed.

bountyhunter
05-04-2006, 3:12 PM
Question: has anyone had to show a copy of the FFL to the shipping clerk/person you hand the package? Or is just nice to have in case? I am trying to send a rifle off to a smith, and I am not sure if I should get a copy of his ffl. Thanks!

No, you don't have to. I have shipped guns back to the factory for repairs and they never ask for a copy of their FFL.

bountyhunter
05-04-2006, 3:13 PM
No matter what happens, if the company damages your property, no matter how it is shipped they must pay the claim.

Nope, if you think so, I recommend you call them. I read their book and that is not what it says.

gh429
05-04-2006, 4:03 PM
I shipped my Sig back to Sigarms via UPS with overnight. I wasn't really aware of any company policies (UPS) and state laws because:

1. It's just a hunk of metal and plastic (no explosives)

2. I was sending my legally owned handgun back to the manufacturer for service

That said, if you're going to ship with FEDEX or UPS it makes much more sense to ship via overnight or at least 2nd day air. The overnight handling by UPS and FEDEX is substantially better than their ground systems. Dealing with their claims process is a nightmare.

EOD Guy
05-05-2006, 5:23 AM
Yes, you are. It's fraud because they ask you to specify the contents. If you don't declare it as a gun, it's lying. And BTW: if it is lost or stolen and you declared it falsely, you have no claim to get re-imbursed.


There is no fraud involved and legally you don't have to declare the contents as long as you are shipping to a licensee. The only time a firearm has to be declared in accordance with Federal law is when shipping to a nonlicensee.

You are correct though that not declaring might be a violation of a company policy and could result in difficulty, if not denial, of any insurance claims. Most of the time, they don't ask what is in the package, especially if you have an account with the shipper.

gh429
05-05-2006, 2:03 PM
Yeah, I didn't specify anything in the package as I recall, because I believed there would be a higher risk of loss if I had declared it as a firearm. Anyone who has worked in UPS or FEDEX security will tell you this. The shipment handles that get paid $7-12/hour are not necessarily the most honest people or make the best decisions.

That said having filed tens of thousands of dollars of claims with both UPS / FEDEX, it does not matter what you declare on the package, only that you declare an insurance value (I'm not 100% sure if there are special rules for firearms, but I don't think so). Depending on how it is lost, you have anywhere from a 25-75% that they will pay you in full (if at all).

trbon8r
05-05-2006, 5:10 PM
Yes, you are. It's fraud because they ask you to specify the contents. If you don't declare it as a gun, it's lying. And BTW: if it is lost or stolen and you declared it falsely, you have no claim to get re-imbursed.

Sorry, but not listing the true contents of a package with a shipper such as UPS or Fed Ex is not fraud. It may be a violation of their policy, but it is not fraud. Fed Ex is not a government entity with any sort of judicial powers under the criminal justice system, nor are they being cheated financially or swindled out of treasure or property.

Lying to them is no more of a fraud than lying to your wife in saying that she really doesn't look fat in that dress. :)

dwtt
05-06-2006, 2:51 PM
No, you don't have to. I have shipped guns back to the factory for repairs and they never ask for a copy of their FFL.
Bountyhunter is right, there is no legal or even company requirment to show a ffl when shipping a firearm, however, my experience with the San Ramon UPS hub is that they will refuse to ship guns and tell a bunch of lies about company policy. The Sunnyvale UPS hub is much better informed and knowledgable. I think Fedex is much less hassle than UPS for shipping firearms.

railfan
05-08-2006, 2:24 AM
I shipped an item via FedEx Ground (machinery, not a firearm) and insured it for $600. They first DAMAGED it, then LOST it! When I submitted a claim they required an original receipt! I managed to find the receipt (for $1800 or so) and they STILL denied the claim!! I believe denial is their policy -- this was so unquestionably their fault. They eventually did pay -- after I filed against them in Small Claims Court. I was still out the court costs, but not a half-day of work to go to trial.

EBWhite
05-08-2006, 11:57 AM
Yes, those shipping companies can be terrible when it comes to claims, esp. when its over 100 dollars.

EBWhite
12-06-2006, 9:13 PM
Here is a new question. Lets say you have a handgun and you are sending it for modification, refinishing, etc to a licensed ffl gunsmith. You also have a C&R ffl license. Can you use US mail since you both are techincally licensed FFL's?

calshooter
12-06-2006, 9:30 PM
Here is a new question. Lets say you have a handgun and you are sending it for modification, refinishing, etc to a licensed ffl gunsmith. You also have a C&R ffl license. Can you use US mail since you both are techincally licensed FFL's?

I can't answer your question, but I will say, I wouldn't ship anything of value via USPS. In the 14 years I've dealt with one shipper or other on a daily basis, I've found UPS to be the most reliable and best to deal with (alongside FedEx and USPS). Everyone has their own experience and preference of course. I always ship handguns via UPS 2nd day service.

Mssr. Eleganté
12-07-2006, 12:57 AM
Here is a new question. Lets say you have a handgun and you are sending it for modification, refinishing, etc to a licensed ffl gunsmith. You also have a C&R ffl license. Can you use US mail since you both are techincally licensed FFL's?

Nope.

The postal regulations only allow handguns to be shipped between "Licensed Dealers" and "Licensed Manufacturers". The law doesn't just say "FFL's".

EBWhite
12-07-2006, 1:12 AM
C&R can be loosely consider a dealer. A dealer in c&r firearms....As you you "deal" in collector firearms, does not have to be sell, but purchase also.

Mssr. Eleganté
12-07-2006, 7:12 AM
C&R can be loosely consider a dealer. A dealer in c&r firearms....As you you "deal" in collector firearms, does not have to be sell, but purchase also.

Nope.

The terms "dealer", "licensed dealer", "collector" and "licensed collector" are defined in US Code 921(a)(11) and (13). Under the law, a licensed collector is not loosely considered a dealer.

Also, getting a really good deal on a firearm does not make you a dealer in firerarms.

And having to deal with all of California's firearms restrictions does not make you a dealer in firearms.