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hoffmang
05-03-2006, 1:10 AM
I'm going to throw out a couple of thoughts/questions.

My blood relation can give me a rifle in the state in which he/she lives and I can fly home to California with it as long as it is a rifle legal for me to own in California, correct?

Does that rule change if its just a friend? (I don't think it does as long as you are would have otherwise passed a DROS or NICs check.)

Also, should a listing of otherwise SB23 compliant rifles ever occur all one would generally need is a proof of purchase or gift (aka, an underlying proof of purchase for the original purchaser) and the serial number of the rifle in question...

EOD Guy
05-03-2006, 6:26 AM
I'm going to throw out a couple of thoughts/questions.

My blood relation can give me a rifle in the state in which he/she lives and I can fly home to California with it as long as it is a rifle legal for me to own in California, correct?

Does that rule change if its just a friend? (I don't think it does as long as you are would have otherwise passed a DROS or NICs check.)

Also, should a listing of otherwise SB23 compliant rifles ever occur all one would generally need is a proof of purchase or gift (aka, an underlying proof of purchase for the original purchaser) and the serial number of the rifle in question...

Both situations concerning transfer of a firearm would be illegal. Even a blood relation cannot give you a firearm if you are not residents of the same state without it being transferred through a California dealer.

I'm not sure what you are asking about the listing so I won't try and answer.

LOW2000
05-03-2006, 11:08 AM
Are you talking about taking ownership of the weapon, or just borrowing it?

Is there even a distinction between the 2 here in california or does the owner need to be present at all times?

bwiese
05-03-2006, 11:24 AM
Because of Fed law, transfers of firearms to Californians across state lines require an FFL, regardless of any blood relationship.

DROS-free interfamilial transfers in CA law are for when both parties are CA residents.

'Infrequent loan' provisions of 12078(d)(1) are OK for Californian-to- Californian, but Fed law likely comes into play if one of the residents is out of state, and that situation could be muddy.

If you were to get an off-list AR/AK receiver, and a 90-day AW registration period were indeed to be opened, you'd have to fill out on the reg card who/when/where you got it from. It may or may not trigger red lights. I don't know why you'd wanna save a few $ on DROS fees to screw up something that has a lot of attention - especially if the reg period opens, there may well be no more chance of getting receiver!

hoffmang
05-03-2006, 12:09 PM
I'm not sure that I agree with that statement as it pertains to rifles.

I'll completely concur that it is illegal to take a gift of a handgun or assault weapon from an out of state relative out of state without going through a CA FFL. I think if I were to go to my Dad's home and he were to give me a rifle as a gift, that I can fly back with it.

As long as we follow the other state's law on transfer that rifle is legally my property. There are only importation bans on handguns, large cap magazines, and assault weapons, but not on rifles.

As I'm looking at it the DOJ's FAQ states that a gift of a rifle between blood relatives here in California is legal without an FFL or sheriff so it should follow that the same is true out of state. http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.htm#20
I think they're code reference to PC section 12076(c) is wrong however. I think they're FAQ should say 12076(d) and 12078 (c) (1).

Bill: It took me long enough to post this that there were subsequent updates from you. Can you point me to where it is prohibited that I take possession of a rifle from my parent or grandparent in another state and return with it to California?

I don't recommend the thought that flows from this as a way to acquire a receiver and have happily completed DROSs a few days back. I was just thinking about how registration would actually operate and what a complete newbie would be able to do on short notice.

bwiese
05-03-2006, 12:32 PM
I'll completely concur that it is illegal to take a gift of a handgun or assault weapon from an out of state relative out of state without going through a CA FFL.

Aside from our discussion, an unreg'd assault weapon which you don't own can't enter the state, period, even thru an FFL. It must go thru a CA FFL holding a CA AW permit - and you won't be able to get it as you'd need a permit from DOJ, which just doesn't happen.

There are no federal bans etc on assault weapons as there's no fed defintion of AW. Regardless of type, the transfer of any firearm is illegal to you as a CA resident w/o going thru a CA FFL dealer.

I think if I were to go to my Dad's home and he were to give me a rifle as a gift, that I can fly back with it.

No. Fed interstate law allows CA law to stipulate that CA residents must go thru a CA DROS process (in effect, only provided by CA FFLs). A CA resident cannot acquire ANY firearms out of state without going thru a CA FFL. (There are some limited C&R exemptions).

Bottom line: you end up violating not only CA law, but the Fed law that interrelates with it.

I don't have exact cites at hand, but they've been previously posted on the Legal forum here several times every month.

As long as we follow the other state's law on transfer that rifle is legally my property. There are only importation bans on handguns, large cap magazines, and assault weapons, but not on rifles.

The interrelated Fed/CA laws are not sensitive to type of firearm.

As I'm looking at it the DOJ's FAQ states that a gift of a rifle between blood relatives here in California is legal without an FFL or sheriff so it should follow that the same is true out of state. http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.htm#20
I think they're code reference to PC section 12076(c) is wrong however. I think they're FAQ should say 12076(d) and 12078 (c) (1).


The FAQ is not the law. There is the presumption that both relatives are CA residents, I believe.

Bottom line: if you are a Californian you cannot get any gun out of state without it going thru CA FFL. Fed law makes allowance for CA law in general, and I don't think the relatives thing is an exemption for this at all.

Furthermore, 'blood relative' is limited to parent/grandparent/child/grandchild relationships. Aunts, uncles, brother/sister, etc. are not authorized relationships for interfamiliar transfers.

EOD Guy
05-03-2006, 1:17 PM
As long as we follow the other state's law on transfer that rifle is legally my property. There are only importation bans on handguns, large cap magazines, and assault weapons, but not on rifles.

As I'm looking at it the DOJ's FAQ states that a gift of a rifle between blood relatives here in California is legal without an FFL or sheriff so it should follow that the same is true out of state. http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.htm#20
I think they're code reference to PC section 12076(c) is wrong however. I think they're FAQ should say 12076(d) and 12078 (c) (1).

You are quoting California law. In an interstate transfer or a transfer between residents of different states, Federal law is what you have to comply with first. 27CFR 478.29 prohibits an individual from acquiring a firearm in a state other than his state of residence. There is an exception for purchase from a dealer if the transaction is legal in both states. 27CFR 478.30 prohibits an individual from transferring a firearm to an unlicensed resident of another state. Family relationships do not matter.

hoffmang
05-03-2006, 1:22 PM
Bill,

I'll dig harder, but there is a scenario here you may not be thinking about.

If I purchase a rifle in North Carolina in a private party transfer there or acquire it as a gift, its not clear to me that California's laws can operate out of state on the private party transaction that actually occurs in North Carolina.

It is clear and undisputed that a North Carolina FFL can not sell me a gun as a resident of California, even though I'm standing there in front of him in North Carolina. That I think is the federal law you're thinking about.

Let me ask you this another way and related to a lowly old bolt action rifle that's been in my family for 100 years. When my Dad gives me that rifle before he dies in the state he resides and I take possession there, how does California block me from importing the rifle?

This has state sales tax parallels. I bought the boat in my icon up there in Illinois and shipped it to Washington. I was out of state in Illinois so I paid no sales tax. I was an out of state guest in Washington. California has a whole use tax regime that I had to do specific things to avoid. However, I have my boat, its currently here in California...

The law if any that would restrict this is a federal law commanding my father as a resident of North Carolina to obey California laws.

This all said, I'll do some more quick research on here with search and on the Federal laws. I'm just saying that California has no right to make their law extraterritorial without Congress specifically granting them that power through Federal law - which they have in the case of FFL restrictions.

hoffmang
05-03-2006, 1:33 PM
Burned again by not posting fast enough (read reading law.)

Ok, an out of state father can't transfer a gun to his son at the Federal level. I see that now.

However, it looks to me that I can appear at the counter of an FFL in a state where there is no state restriction on an over the counter sale of a rifle and buy a rifle from him where that FFL runs a NICs check in that more normal state. See 27 cfr 478.29 (b).

This is all very interesting from the perspective of the listing process for non AR/AK weapons.

bwiese
05-03-2006, 1:34 PM
Please read EOD_Guy's post just above yours. It contains the details. Here's what he wrote, it's nice & concise:

[quote=EOD_Guy] In an interstate transfer or a transfer between residents of different states, Federal law is what you have to comply with first. 27CFR §478.29 prohibits an individual from acquiring a firearm in a state other than his state of residence.[/indent]


§478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State....



478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides....

There are some exemptions for inheritance but not sure how they play against state laws.

bwiese
05-03-2006, 1:38 PM
However, it looks to me that I can appear at the counter of an FFL in a state where there is no state restriction on an over the counter sale of a rifle and buy a rifle from him where that FFL runs a NICs check in that more normal state. See 27 cfr 478.29 (b).

An non-CA FFL cannot sell a Californian a firearm directly. (Some limited C&R exceptions probably, dunno...)

Thousands of folks have asked this question before you have ;)

This is all very interesting from the perspective of the listing process for non AR/AK weapons.

NonAR/nonAK weapons that are declared to be assault weapons in CA have to go thru a special court declaration (12276.5 "add on" procedure). Once they are declared as AWs, they are in just the same position as new AR/AK 'series' members that have been newly listed: a mandatory 90 day reg period opens.

Expect detailed scrutiny over registrations if & when a reg period opens for any new type of AW. Best to do things on the straight & narrow.

EOD Guy
05-03-2006, 2:01 PM
Burned again by not posting fast enough (read reading law.)



However, it looks to me that I can appear at the counter of an FFL in a state where there is no state restriction on an over the counter sale of a rifle and buy a rifle from him where that FFL runs a NICs check in that more normal state. See 27 cfr 478.29 (b).



Federal law allows that, but the sale must be legal in both the seller's and the buyer's states of business/residence. It would not be legal under California law because California requires that just about all firearms transfers to California residents be completed through a California licensed dealer. If you read 478.29 (b) again, you will see that it refers you to 478.96(c) where the requirements for the sale to be legal in both states is located.

hoffmang
05-03-2006, 2:37 PM
Eod Thanks.

Bill - I was in post mode when EOD added to the thread earlier.

Either way, if one has dual residency, don't forget to register your possessed but out of state off list weapon should there be a listing..

Now back to listening to 10percent ride the scooter. Also, I am quite serious about the Commerce Clause issues in the other thread around high capacity magazines.

Hunter
05-03-2006, 7:17 PM
There are some exemptions for inheritance but not sure how they play against state laws.

Have you guys seen this thread asking the same question but for a handgun? Seems to say it is OK (both federal and state views) due too exemptions for family transfers as long as one files the paperwork with the DOJ to conduct a background check.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=284252#post284252