PDA

View Full Version : Mag in magwell to PPT a OLL ?


biglou
08-16-2010, 9:52 AM
We did a PPT of a AR OLL this weekend and the guy at the gun store we went to said we had to have a 10 round mag locked in the magwell. I sold him a complete rifle with a 10/20 mag, but he left the mag and upper at his house. It was about a 20 minute ride back to the house so my friend just bought one there. While the guy went to get the mag my friend asked if this was true or was he just trying to sell us a mag for $25.00. I told him I wasn't sure but to just buy the mag or he may not do the transfer and I don't feel like driving to another shop with the LA traffic. Other than that the guy at the gun store was really cool and so were the other employees. They were happy to show me whatever guns/parts I wanted to look at while I waited. Is this another gray area or did we get scammed for $25.00 ?

halifax
08-16-2010, 9:59 AM
I suppose like most people, the dealer still has some concerns on what is legal and what is not regarding OLLs. At least he was willing to deal with them. Personally I don't think a mag in the magwell matters.

Ed_Hazard
08-16-2010, 10:10 AM
Well since the lower has the LPK installed as well as a stock it falls into that area of being a rifle that is supposed to have a fixed magazine to be legal and not an incomplete AW even w/the bb installed it can still take a 10+ round mag. If it was just the stripped receiver then I could see it not needing the mag for the deal.

biglou
08-16-2010, 10:19 AM
At least he was willing to deal with them.

That's what I figured. I called around first and nobody would do it. Turner's actually referred us to him.

biglou
08-16-2010, 10:22 AM
even w/the bb installed it can still take a 10+ round mag. If it was just the stripped receiver then I could see it not needing the mag for the deal.

Good point. I didn't thing of that.

jtmkinsd
08-17-2010, 12:48 AM
I wouldn't say you got scammed. There is nothing in the law that says a fixed magazine weapon must have a magazine in it at the time of transfer. It only defines a fixed magazine weapon as one requiring a tool to remove the mag. Sounds to me like they are just being extremely cautious in their interpretation. There are some shops where I'm located where a transfer can take between 30 to 45 minutes. Most times we get them done and on their way in 10 to 15.

tenpercentfirearms
08-17-2010, 5:59 AM
Sorry you got scammed.

First, without an upper, it is not a complete rifle. You could have simply taken out the Bullet Button and put in the regular mag release and told him it was for a .22 LR dedicated build and no mag release would legally be required. Of course they wouldn't have liked that, so let's assume you left it just as it was.

What about having a magazine out of the rifle makes it illegal? Nothing. It still does not have the capacity to accept a detachable magazine because when the empty magwell has a magazine inserted, it still requires the use of a tool to remove.

Next, what kind of magazine did they sell you for $25? If it was a C Products 10/10 magazine, you thoroughly got scammed.

If anyone ever finds this situation again, I would simply ask the dealer to loan you one and tell them you will bring a ten round magazine at pick up. You could also bring your ten round magazine at pick up and ask to return the 10 round magazine they sold you at DROS start. If they say they can't do that, ask to see their return policy.

If it were me, first, I would have just done it with an empty magwell. Second, even if I did want to feel safer, I would have just loaned the customer a ten round magazine. Then when it was over, I would have tried to sell him some more ten round magazines and some other accessories because the customer wanted them, not because I coerced them into buying my overpriced magazines when it was legally not required.

In my opinion this is no different than selling a guy a lock for a long gun when he has a safe affidavit.

kemasa
08-17-2010, 6:49 AM
A detachable magazine is not the sole issue. A fixed magazine over 10 rounds is also an issue (12276.1(a)(2), from the flowchart), so without any magazine there could be a concern. Without an upper, as stated, it is not semi-auto nor center fire, so it should not be a problem though.

franklinarmory
08-17-2010, 7:28 AM
Well since the lower has the LPK installed as well as a stock it falls into that area of being a rifle that is supposed to have a fixed magazine to be legal and not an incomplete AW even w/the bb installed it can still take a 10+ round mag. If it was just the stripped receiver then I could see it not needing the mag for the deal.
I hate to be indelicate here, but you are simply spreading FUD. When a magazine is out of a BB equipped AR, you have a rifle capable of accepting an "ATTACHABLE" magazine, NOT a "DETACHABLE" magazine. Furthermore, there is no constructive possession element of the Penal Code. Consequently, an individual could have a 30 round magazine next to their EBR with an open mag well, and it still would not be illegal. (However, it is obviously a felony to actually install that 11+ magazine into the full feature, BB equipped, AR.)

Would this be wise? Absolutely not! We recommend that our rifles always be transported with a magazine of ten rounds or less locked into the magazine well. It simply keeps law enforcement from getting any ideas that you might be up to something illegal.

I run into this question all the time when law enforcement, gun shop owners, and customers ask how we load our firearm. We drop the 10 round magazine with a tool, load it up, reinsert it into the magazine well, and shoot. Repeat, enjoy, etc. I'd say 10% of the gun shops I've showed our product to have had personnel claim that our rifle is an AW the moment we drop the mag. Jason Davis is our corporate attorney. He fully proof read our Safety Manual and concurred with our loading procedure noted above. (A copy of our Safety Manual can be downloaded at www.franklinarmory.com)

Sorry I'm so long winded on this topic, but it is so frustrating combating the misinformation all the time. And, Ed.... It's not personal. I once stepped into a 12031 debate and was immediately shown the error of my understanding. :)