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TonyNorCal
05-02-2006, 12:58 PM
I e-mailed Alison and asked about the removal of the memo, possible listing, and whether she could shed any light on the situation. Here is the response I received. It doesn't say much, but it seems something may be happening. I suppose we'll all find out.


Seems rather cryptic lol...

"I'm sorry, but I am unable to respond to your inquiry at this time. A message will be posted on our website by the end of the week.


Alison Y. Merrilees
Deputy Attorney General
Counsel, Firearms Division
California Department of Justice
(916)263-0802
Fax- (916)263-0676 "

blacklisted
05-02-2006, 1:01 PM
Why would they keep it secret? Why not just say "we are listing" or "we have decided not to list" or "we're just making a minor update to the memo"? Seems kind of fishy.

VeryCoolCat
05-02-2006, 1:02 PM
I'm surprised if they are listing now and why they didn't list like 4 months ago. I mean it would have taken them a week at the max to list.

Major Miner II
05-02-2006, 1:03 PM
Why would they keep it secret? Why not just say "we are listing" or "we have decided not to list" or "we're just making a minor update to the memo"? Seems kind of fishy.
Because they like screwing with you guys?

tenpercentfirearms
05-02-2006, 1:04 PM
Relax, we have already won. Worst case scenario is they stick to the catagory 4 bullcrap and it heads to the courts. We still have our off list lowers and we just keep using them as fixed mag rifles. No biggie. Any kind of list at all is better than no list. We know they won't have legislation, so all of this is great news. Come on DOJ! Do your job Bill Lockyer. I might even vote for you if you would just do your stinking job. Update the list!

Enough talk, if it wasn't for my tactical Mamba sling, there is no way I could type and drive this scooter (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=33178) at the same time!

The list is coming, the list is coming.

Major Miner II
05-02-2006, 1:06 PM
Relax, we have already won. Worst case scenario is they stick to the catagory 4 bullcrap and it heads to the courts. We still have our off list lowers and we just keep using them as fixed mag rifles. No biggie. Any kind of list at all is better than no list. We know they won't have legislation, so all of this is great news. Come on DOJ! Do your job Bill Lockyer. I might even vote for you if you would just do your stinking job. Update the list!

Enough talk, if it wasn't for my tactical Mamba sling, there is no way I could type and drive this scooter (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=33178) at the same time!

The list is coming, the list is coming.
The problem is, a Cat 4 list is really going to piss off the people here who don't want a pinned mag/no pistol grip type rifle.

It screws up their loophole.

blacklisted
05-02-2006, 1:08 PM
The problem is, a Cat 4 list is really going to piss off the people here who don't want a pinned mag/no pistol grip type rifle.

It screws up their loophole.

That's just too bad, isn't it?

tenpercentfirearms
05-02-2006, 1:09 PM
The problem is, a Cat 4 list is really going to piss off the people here who don't want a pinned mag/no pistol grip type rifle.

It screws up their loophole.Anyone upset by catagory 4 isn't thinking long term. If the CA Supreme Court ruled in our favor (sort of) in Harrot and said AR/AK series is too confusing, you need to make a list. What are they going to say about catagory 4? We will win the catagory 4 issue in a court, I am fairly confident of that. So anyone who is upset by catagory 4 needs to kick back and relax. Any list at this point is better than no list.

MC Sweatshop
05-02-2006, 1:15 PM
I've read the FAQ's and haven't heard about Cat4. Can someone please elaborate?

Major Miner II
05-02-2006, 1:15 PM
Anyone upset by catagory 4 isn't thinking long term. If the CA Supreme Court ruled in our favor (sort of) in Harrot and said AR/AK series is too confusing, you need to make a list. What are they going to say about catagory 4? We will win the catagory 4 issue in a court, I am fairly confident of that. So anyone who is upset by catagory 4 needs to kick back and relax. Any list at this point is better than no list.
I don't get how you think it would be a win.

The Cat 4 list would be a list along the lines of Harrot, with very specific restrictions that have been part of the AW laws for awhile now.

What part of it do you think they would rule against and why?

Just curious.

tenpercentfirearms
05-02-2006, 1:25 PM
What part of it do you think they would rule against and why?First of all, what authority does the DOJ have to implement a catagory 4? The best evidence against the catagory four is their own memo that stated they wouldn't be charging you with a crime for violating catagory 4, but that they would "invalidate" your registration. The DOJ has zero authority to invalidate anyone's registration. Their job is to simply update the list, give the owners 90 days to register or ship them out of state, and to process the registration. That is it. They know they are powerless hence their claiming to have the power to "invalidate" registrations instead of charging you with manufacture of an assault weapon. They know that when they list them as assault weapons, they are creating the assault weapons, not us. So evil features be damned!

The DOJ has also already publically stated that people who registered the assault weapons back in 2000 were able to add more evil features after the federal AWB expired back in 2004. How come those guys were able to add more evil features to their registered assault weapons, but the DOJ claims the new catagory 4 guns can't?

If the CA Supreme Court thought it was confusing to have a AR/AK series ban and instead they required there to be a list by make and model, what are they going to say when they find out the DOJ is trying to create two lists? What are ramifications for law abiding citizens who get confused which lowers they registered in 2000 can have new evil features and which ones they registered in 2006 that cannot? What will law enforcement say when they try to figure out in the field which lowers are catagory 4 and which are not?

If the CA Surpeme Court thought it was too confusing to just ban all AR/AK series, what do you think they are going to say about catagory 4 guns being mixed in with old 2000 guns and on top of that a CA Department of Justice that over stepped its bounds and created new law completely outside of its authority?

Join the celebration. Any list is better than no list. Either way, if you bought a lower recently, you knew it was going to have to stay fixed for a while. What is the big deal if it has to stay fixed for 20 or 30 years? You are still better off than you were before. The only people that might be mad are people who bought 15 of them. I bought seven and no fixed mag rule is going to stop me from having fun with them. I might not be able to have as much fun, but I still have fully functioning AR15 lowers (with a fixed mag) that I would have never had before this.

We are winning!

The list is coming, the list is coming!

PanzerAce
05-02-2006, 1:29 PM
ten, just add "The list is coming!" to your signature, will you?

Major Miner II
05-02-2006, 1:42 PM
Those are all good points. But I would have to counter that:

1. 2 lists arent confusing, especially when one is with evil features and one without.

2. As stated before, all DOJ has to do it place the stipulation on the registration card, and you're screwed.

BTW. . .who is going to fight this? The NRA hasn't taken much interest in anything AW related in California lately.

First of all, what authority does the DOJ have to implement a catagory 4? The best evidence against the catagory four is their own memo that stated they wouldn't be charging you with a crime for violating catagory 4, but that they would "invalidate" your registration. The DOJ has zero authority to invalidate anyone's registration. Their job is to simply update the list, give the owners 90 days to register or ship them out of state, and to process the registration. That is it. They know they are powerless hence their claiming to have the power to "invalidate" registrations instead of charging you with manufacture of an assault weapon. They know that when they list them as assault weapons, they are creating the assault weapons, not us. So evil features be damned!

The DOJ has also already publically stated that people who registered the assault weapons back in 2000 were able to add more evil features after the federal AWB expired back in 2004. How come those guys were able to add more evil features to their registered assault weapons, but the DOJ claims the new catagory 4 guns can't?

If the CA Supreme Court thought it was confusing to have a AR/AK series ban and instead they required there to be a list by make and model, what are they going to say when they find out the DOJ is trying to create two lists? What are ramifications for law abiding citizens who get confused which lowers they registered in 2000 can have new evil features and which ones they registered in 2006 that cannot? What will law enforcement say when they try to figure out in the field which lowers are catagory 4 and which are not?

If the CA Surpeme Court thought it was too confusing to just ban all AR/AK series, what do you think they are going to say about catagory 4 guns being mixed in with old 2000 guns and on top of that a CA Department of Justice that over stepped its bounds and created new law completely outside of its authority?

Join the celebration. Any list is better than no list. Either way, if you bought a lower recently, you knew it was going to have to stay fixed for a while. What is the big deal if it has to stay fixed for 20 or 30 years? You are still better off than you were before. The only people that might be mad are people who bought 15 of them. I bought seven and no fixed mag rule is going to stop me from having fun with them. I might not be able to have as much fun, but I still have fully functioning AR15 lowers (with a fixed mag) that I would have never had before this.

We are winning!

The list is coming, the list is coming!

bwiese
05-02-2006, 1:50 PM
Just spoke to a gun lawyer 15 min ago. [Let's not play guessing games with his name, OK?]

There may be a planned DOJ attack on the definition of detachable magazine.
However lawyer is drafting a letter to let them know this is 'underground regulation' and they can't change defintions without formal comment periods, time schedules, etc. specified by Admin Procedures Act (sec 11340).

Additionally, the prior memo's assertion of Cat 4 - aside from being unsupported in statutory law - would also be a violation of APA.

This lawyer has no idea if & when listing may or may not occur, but agrees that some 'pre -listing' activity is taking place ('picture book' work etc.)

They (DOJ) are trying to explore legislation, but there's likely not enough time this year.

For now, what this means is there's a de-facto acknowledgment that existing fixed mag methods are legal.

So all we can do is sit tight.

Omega13device
05-02-2006, 1:51 PM
First, the DOJ has to calculate the legal ($) and political costs of trying to create a category 4. If they think they can get away with it, they'll do it.

If they do it, for example via the registration card, someone will have to sue them claiming it's illegal, they have no standing under the law to do it, or whatever. In the meantime we will all have to suck it up and fill out the registration cards and hope that the cat 4 language is invalidated. Presumably a new registration would occur at that point. But if no one challenges it they get their way.

tenpercentfirearms
05-02-2006, 1:52 PM
1. 2 lists arent confusing, especially when one is with evil features and one without.Banning all AR/AKs didn't seem too confusing to me, but the CA Supreme Court throught so. You don't think they will find a catagory 4 list confusing especially when there is no authority for such a list to exist? You are entitled to your own opinion I suppose.

2. As stated before, all DOJ has to do it place the stipulation on the registration card, and you're screwed.It is called an injunction. It is called I cross that part out and write on there I don't recognize their attempts to step outside of their bounds. The DOJ has limited authority, they do not make the law.

BTW. . .who is going to fight this? The NRA hasn't taken much interest in anything AW related in California lately.How does the owners of 30,000+ listed lowers sound? Do you think they could possibly get a legal fund going? YOU AND I ARE GOING TO FIGHT THIS! Our pro-gun lawyers are going to fight this. This is grassroots baby!

Rejoice! The list is coming, the list is coming!

PIRATE14
05-02-2006, 1:53 PM
Anyone upset by catagory 4 isn't thinking long term. If the CA Supreme Court ruled in our favor (sort of) in Harrot and said AR/AK series is too confusing, you need to make a list. What are they going to say about catagory 4? We will win the catagory 4 issue in a court, I am fairly confident of that. So anyone who is upset by catagory 4 needs to kick back and relax. Any list at this point is better than no list.

Concur........................

glen avon
05-02-2006, 1:54 PM
...Additionally, the prior memo's assertion of Cat 4 - aside from being unsupported in statutory law - would also be a violation of APA....For now, what this means is there's a de-facto acknowledgment that existing fixed mag methods are legal.

please explain

thmpr
05-02-2006, 1:58 PM
20000 gun owners contribute $20.00 ea. hhmmmmm...... is $400,000.00 enough to hire the best gun lawyer? :rolleyes:

Most definately!!!!!

bwiese
05-02-2006, 2:03 PM
please explain

I mean:

(1)The Cat 4 memo concerning evil features/detachable mags on a newly-eg'd AW would (totally aside from no statutory support in 12280) require some regulation to implement. A memo doesn't cut it, and would be "submarine regulation".

(2) The _apparent_ fact that they want to change definition of 978.20(a) detachable magazine is, in a sense, a bit of an underhanded acknowledgement our existing fixed mag attachment methods are indeed compliant.

gose
05-02-2006, 2:04 PM
Rejoice! The list is coming, the list is coming!

NOOOOO! No sooner than June 5th! :(

TKo_Productions
05-02-2006, 2:05 PM
There may be a planned DOJ attack on the definition of detachable magazine.

Where was this information drawn from?

Why the hell is the DOJ screwing around with definitions?

Why don't they just list ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

PIRATE14
05-02-2006, 2:10 PM
Just spoke to a gun lawyer 15 min ago. [Let's not play guessing games with his name, OK?]

There may be a planned DOJ attack on the definition of detachable magazine.
However lawyer is drafting a letter to let them know this is 'underground regulation' and they can't change defintions without formal comment periods, time schedules, etc. specified by Admin Procedures Act (sec 11340).

They wouldn't try this would they.......no way it would hold up in court.


For now, what this means is there's a de-facto acknowledgment that existing fixed mag methods are legal.

We knew this already despite all the scare tactics....

So all we can do is sit tight.

Tin foil hat slipping off......visions of crazy red head on a "gay" scooter....shouting something......:eek:

jemaddux
05-02-2006, 2:11 PM
One thing I can see happening again would be right now a game of trying to stop them coming in now. They sent out letters before making threats that worked to stop some shipment. They have even found some ways of holding on to one groups while they come up with cause to do so. This whole thing is going to turn into a very large game and it can end up as anyones guess. This is going to very much be a wait and see what happens. As far as we know this could be DOJ saying we are tired of the stupid calls so we can at least get even by making us all jump up and down, um um hold on one second, some strange guy on a scooter is drivng by screaming in my ear "THE LIST IS COMING!!!".......... O.k....hes gone. Who knows where this will end:cool:

glen avon
05-02-2006, 2:13 PM
I mean: (snip)

gotcha, thanks.

Joe
05-02-2006, 2:14 PM
posting to be able to remember this thread

CrazyJeep
05-02-2006, 2:23 PM
posting to be able to remember this thread

Just to let you know, you can go to "Thread Tools" and select subscribe instead of posting. Just helping you out for future reference.:)

Joe
05-02-2006, 2:24 PM
Just to let you know, you can go to "Thread Tools" and select subscribe instead of posting. Just helping you out for future reference.:)


ahhhh, thank you :)

bwiese
05-02-2006, 2:25 PM
Where was this information drawn from?

Why the hell is the DOJ screwing around with definitions?

Why don't they just list ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

The DOJ is embarassed and fighting. They are trapped between statutory law, regulatory definitions and court decisions - one of which if they'd dealt with in a timely fashion, they'd not be in this position as of now.

They can try to change regulatory definitions, but they can't do it in "underground" or "submarine" fashion - regulations (except Kasler list update!!) have to go thru sec 11340 Admin Procedures Act standards to be adopted. There are timelines, comment periods, proofreadings, etc. They can't couch this as emergency regulation, either.

So this attorney I spoke to is sending DOJ a nastygram about some of this submarine regulation and "don't you dare" etc.

Two issues opens up if the DOJ changes detachable mag definition:

Many people will just go gripless/featureless and use an SRB and detachable mags.

Also, _existing_ current legally-owned, legally-acquired off-list rifles with detachable mags would be, de facto, declared as assault weapons with any change in defintion of detachable magazine, or an additional definition of fixed magazine.

THIS ALONE MAY BE ENOUGH TO TRIGGER MANDATORY REGISTRATION PERIOD - as it appears it could well involve existing legal firearms crossing a boundary into assault weapons status thru DOJ action. They can't confiscate, there is no stautory support for them to force user changes - so if they update a regulation that makes fixed-mag rifles AWs, they have to live with those consequences.

There is NO mandated surrender, render-safe, etc. actions for items that end up as assault weapons but which were legally owned/acquired beforehand. Remember, there is NO true ban on assault weapons: _existing_ legal owners have always been allowed to register theirs, and it's structured into the law. The orig laws (Roberti-Roos and SB23) would not have passed if decommisioning or render-safe actions, and/or confiscation were the only options.

grammaton76
05-02-2006, 2:29 PM
Blast them! They read about the 9 receivers I just ordered from NDS, and they're trying to list before they get in-state!. Here's hoping they're just posting notice at the end of the week, as I don't think my next 9 receivers will make it in if they actually list this week. :mad:

45Auto
05-02-2006, 2:33 PM
"2.two lists arent confusing, especially when one is with evil features and one without."
Creating a new category of AW's is going to be the mother of all messes - for the DOJ, for us, for LE and for the Cal court system. That's because the DOJ has already allowed that pinned mag lowers (ala the Vulcan) and closed mag bottom-receivers (ala the FAB 10) are not considered to be AW's and are therefore not regulated as AW's. Therefore, there can be no cat. 4 AW's having the same features as the Vulcan - without including the Vulcan. The only real question is the legality of self-pinning of the mag catch button be owners of said rifles. In theory, if one cannot remove the mag without the use of a tool then the gun is not an AW and not regluated as an AW. The courts are going to go nuts with this nightmare; if everyone who bought off-list lowers kicks in $200, that could mean at least a cool $2 million for a legal fight.

jmlivingston
05-02-2006, 2:44 PM
I suspect that they will be listing this week, as has been mentioned many times before they've essentially wrapped up the .50BMG registration and can devote those resources to registering any newly-created AW's due to list updates.

That said, I find it very interesting that the Feb. memo was removed from the website. I would expect minor updates to that memo would simply replace the original, as they have done several times now. I also see no reason to yank the memo several days prior to listing, that doesn't do anything for them. Why yank it, when they can just issue follow-up documents? It tells me that there's something in that document that they no longer agree with and do not want in the public domain any further (i.e. Cat4 AW? Hope so!).

John

TKo_Productions
05-02-2006, 2:47 PM
I suspect that they will be listing this week, as has been mentioned many times before they've essentially wrapped up the .50BMG registration and can devote those resources to registering any newly-created AW's due to list updates.

That said, I find it very interesting that the Feb. memo was removed from the website. I would expect minor updates to that memo would simply replace the original, as they have done several times now. I also see no reason to yank the memo several days prior to listing, that doesn't do anything for them. Why yank it, when they can just issue follow-up documents? It tells me that there's something in that document that they no longer agree with and do not want in the public domain any further (i.e. Cat4 AW? Hope so!).

John

I agree, they didn't pull the old memo simply to update it. Whatever is coming must be carrying some significant weight. Perhaps a reversal on their previous stance. Why else dump the old memo?

tenpercentfirearms
05-02-2006, 2:48 PM
What are the odds the new memo will give an official list date, state there is no way to prevent the lawful modifcation of such listed lowers as they are assault weapons either way, and that there isn't a damn thing they can do about other manufacturer's from making new makes and models, but that the DOJ will promptly list them as soon as they find they have been imported into the state? Probably about as good as me getting up to 45 MPH as I ride up the 99 on my trek to tell the state that the list is coming.

45Auto
05-02-2006, 2:58 PM
What are the odds the new memo will give an official list date, state there is no way to prevent the lawful modifcation of such listed lowers as they are assault weapons either way, and that there isn't a damn thing they can do about other manufacturer's from making new makes and models, but that the DOJ will promptly list them as soon as they find they have been imported into the state? Probably about as good as me getting up to 45 MPH as I ride up the 99 on my trek to tell the state that the list is coming.
The odds that you are right are probably better than we think; I cannot think that DOJ is going to try to introduce a cat.4 "list". It also seems inconceivable that suddenly my father's Remington 740 will become an AW. Without legislation I don't think they can simply state that "all centerfire rifles with a detachable mag" are now to be regulated as AW's. They would be in violation of Harrott. In order to cover such a wide array of rifles, they would have to update the Kasler list (and the AW Identification Guide) by make and model for every rifle that has a detachable mag - a formidable task.

45Auto
05-02-2006, 3:03 PM
Bweise - if the DOJ changes detachable mag definition:



Imagine the nightmare for LE: now there are two basic categories for regluated AW's: the original detachable mag Roberti-Roos/SB 23 rifles and the recently acquired off-list lowers that can only be built up with a fixed mag. How will the average officer know which guns were registered as SB 23 rifles and which are "fixed mag" rifles? The result would be more confusion than aaddressed by Harrott.

tenpercentfirearms
05-02-2006, 3:07 PM
Without legislation I don't think they can simply state that "all centerfire rifles with a detachable mag" are now to be regulated as AW's. They would be in violation of Harrott. In order to cover such a wide array of rifles, they would have to update the Kasler list (and the AW Identification Guide) by make and model for every rifle that has a detachable mag - a formidable task.I think you are getting the issue confused. An updated Kasler list will only deal with AR/AK series rifles. In order to add non AR/AK series rifles they have to go through a completely different procedure that involves judges and courts and what not. They can update the Kasler list. They can state their opinion is that the new Kasler guns cannot have the evil features added to them, even though the guns added to the Kasler list in November of 2000 have had the features added to them. Again, this has nothing to do with anything other than AR/AK series firearms and this won't prevent there from being a hell of a court case to decide the issue once and for all.

You are 100% correct about the confusion of a catagory 4 AW though. It won't fly in court.

Omega13device
05-02-2006, 3:36 PM
Bweise - if the DOJ changes detachable mag definition:

Imagine the nightmare for LE: now there are two basic categories for regluated AW's: the original detachable mag Roberti-Roos/SB 23 rifles and the recently acquired off-list lowers that can only be built up with a fixed mag. How will the average officer know which guns were registered as SB 23 rifles and which are "fixed mag" rifles? The result would be more confusion than aaddressed by Harrott.

Unless LEO's routinely carry a copy of the current list, this isn't any worse than the current situation. When in doubt the LEO will either call it in to someone who does have the list, or worst case confiscate the firearm and let someone else sort it out back at the station.

Mute
05-02-2006, 4:07 PM
Unless LEO's routinely carry a copy of the current list, this isn't any worse than the current situation. When in doubt the LEO will either call it in to someone who does have the list, or worst case confiscate the firearm and let someone else sort it out back at the station.

This is the type of thing the courts wanted to do away with when they rendered the Harrot decision. I don't think they'd be too happy if the DOJ took it upon themselves to create such a state of affairs, which would only happen if they dream up some b.s. Category 4 designation.

grammaton76
05-02-2006, 4:17 PM
This is the type of thing the courts wanted to do away with when they rendered the Harrot decision. I don't think they'd be too happy if the DOJ took it upon themselves to create such a state of affairs, which would only happen if they dream up some b.s. Category 4 designation.

About the only thing they could do that would make ANY sense, would be for each officer to start carrying a camera phone or something.

Officer takes a look at rifle, hits click on the camera. Pic is automatically sent to Iggy, at which point either he sighs and says, "It's legal", or says "Hey, you mind sending a pic from this other angle?", or he goes, "Woohoo, we got us one!" Total cost to CA: a few guys to pretend to know guns, working around the clock at the newly established "insta-assault-weapon-check center" and craploads of high resolution camera phones issued to officers. Then, training classes in how to use them. Then, memos to officers saying they shouldn't encourage gun owners to send in pics of CA-legal weapons while flipping off the camera. ;)

All in all, a big mess, but it would address the issue of making the officers carry around books.

30Cal
05-02-2006, 4:18 PM
Conceivably, the LEO's would carry the DOJ's AW coloringbook. Maybe that's why it's been so long in coming is because they have to completely overhaul the coloringbook to make the tiered system clear. Maybe not.

The only thing I'll say with confidence is that I we're not going to see the list and registration as it was outlined in the now absent memo.

Is the list coming?

socal57chevy
05-02-2006, 4:38 PM
I copied and pasted one of my posts from the "phone call" thread.:D

So what if they do list. California will be flooded with lowers offered by other companies and with new model numbers. The "list" would require near constant updating. I see new leg. as their only way out of this mess. I would rather stay offlist myself with with the mighty state of California not regulating when and where I may do what with my rifle. :cool:

metalhead357
05-02-2006, 4:50 PM
So like Ok Ok Ok did you guys know there was like a DOJ memo and it says that all these new lowers are like bad and gonna be catagory IV and you'll have to sacrifice your first born to keep it pinned:p


AAARRrrGGgGGgHHHH! List, dont list! Me thinks it WILL take another round before the DOJ is 'forced' to do thier job.

I dont even drink but all this lower madddddddnes is making me consider THAT as my new hobbie instead:cool:

C'mon DOJ! Do the deed or get off the pot so someone else can!!!!!!!!!!

6172crew
05-02-2006, 5:40 PM
Shouldnt be to hard to guess, there are only 3-4 who arent mouth breathers and look out for us.;)

I might have spoken to that very same gun lawyer about 1 hour ago I asked him if the difference between how the law reads and what everyone is told when making contact with the DOJ would be worth littigation and he said YES and I commented that I would be good for at least 500 clams to get the ball rolling on this..

He said he will talk to his partners and call me back within a day or two

I wonder if its the same gun lawyer

TacFan
05-02-2006, 5:55 PM
Darn it, I need to get four more lowers before they list :eek:

xenophobe
05-02-2006, 6:59 PM
Category 4 will be thrown out of court. If "AR Series" and "AK Series" was deemed confusing, imagine trying to define and segregate different Category firearms.

It just won't fly.

DOJ has lost, and is doing the mad scramble to get something done. They'll need to pull a miracle out of their arse. Won't happen. ;)

NoTime2Shoot
05-02-2006, 8:45 PM
As was said before, they are screwing with us.

By doing what they are, they are driving up the prices of lowers. Lowers being produced by companies they actually own.

We, my friends, are but they sheep. The DOJ, the reapers of our money. They have it all figured out.......


Oh, sorry.

I'm using Reynolds Wrap....

:p

Telpierion
05-02-2006, 9:00 PM
Category 4 will be thrown out of court. If "AR Series" and "AK Series" was deemed confusing, imagine trying to define and segregate different Category firearms.

It just won't fly.

DOJ has lost, and is doing the mad scramble to get something done. They'll need to pull a miracle out of their arse. Won't happen. ;)

My guess is they will list all currently known models then say, based on the fact lowers can be built up into pistols, that future off list lowers can't be sold because they are handguns which cannot be found on the approved list.

blkA4alb
05-02-2006, 9:05 PM
My guess is they will list all currently known models then say, based on the fact lowers can be built up into pistols, that future off list lowers can't be sold because they are handguns which cannot be found on the approved list.
Well, these lowers do have the capibility to be built into pistols. But not legally. These are rifle lowers, and always will be in california. I'm sure thats what you meant anyways right? I hope...

Telpierion
05-02-2006, 9:11 PM
Well, these lowers do have the capibility to be built into pistols. But not legally. These are rifle lowers, and always will be in california. I'm sure thats what you meant anyways right? I hope...

What I meant was based on the fact that it is physically possible to make them into pistols the DOJ will declare them to be pistols and consequently rule that they cannot be sold in CA since they are not on the approved list.

ohsmily
05-02-2006, 9:28 PM
What I meant was based on the fact that it is physically possible to make them into pistols the DOJ will declare them to be pistols and consequently rule that they cannot be sold in CA since they are not on the approved list.

Your assertion doesn't make sense...First of all, they would be converted into SBR's (short barreled rifles) not pistols. It isn't classified as a pistol unless the receiver is marked as such. If it isn't, then configuring it as a "pistol" would just make it a short barreled rifle. Yes, it is semantics, but nonetheless, it is the case.
Second, most ANY rifle can be made to violate the law and become a short barreled rifle. So, again your logic doesn't hold up.

thmpr
05-02-2006, 9:56 PM
If the DOJ do list, they will probably go with the first list they made back back in Jan-Feb.

A change to the Olympic arms classification to read:

CAR (all) take off the 97
add MFR (all).
Add "FEG" Hungarian as a classification
Model SA 85M
Add "Robinson Armament"
AK-47 series VEPR (all)
Add "DOUBLESTAR"
DSC STAR-15 rifles (all)
DSC STARCAR Carbine (all)
Add "DSA"
DS-AR (all)
Add "Barrett"
AR-series (all)
Add to Bushmaster - to go under model X M15E2S , Carbon 15 rifle and Carbon 15 pistol.
Add "European American Armory (EAA)"
Saiga
Add Century International Arms
WASR-10 (all)
Add FAR-15 (all)
Add STAG 15 (all)
JP - (all)
CMMG (all)

blkA4alb
05-02-2006, 10:01 PM
If the DOJ do list, they will probably go with the first list they made back back in Jan-Feb.

A change to the Olympic arms classification to read:

CAR (all) take off the 97
add MFR (all).
Add "FEG" Hungarian as a classification
Model SA 85M
Add "Robinson Armament"
AK-47 series VEPR (all)
Add "DOUBLESTAR"
DSC STAR-15 rifles (all)
DSC STARCAR Carbine (all)
Add "DSA"
DS-AR (all)
Add "Barrett"
AR-series (all)
Add to Bushmaster - to go under model X M15E2S , Carbon 15 rifle and Carbon 15 pistol.
Add "European American Armory (EAA)"
Saiga
Add Century International Arms
WASR-10 (all)
Add FAR-15 (all)
Add STAG 15 (all)
JP - (all)
CMMG (all)
They can't just list like that. Unless JP - (all) is the model of the receiver, that will not fly. They must be listed by make AND model specifically. I'm not even sure how they got away with (all) on the current list.

PanzerAce
05-02-2006, 10:03 PM
What I meant was based on the fact that it is physically possible to make them into pistols the DOJ will declare them to be pistols and consequently rule that they cannot be sold in CA since they are not on the approved list.

They cannot do that, since it would be conflicting with what the ATF says..

thmpr
05-02-2006, 10:07 PM
Well they sure did!!! For example: DPMS--> Panther: all
:confused:

TacFan
05-02-2006, 10:16 PM
instead of having a list of what is not allowed, they should have a list of what is allowed and they would cover their behinds. This way when a new receiver was manufactured, they could decided whether or not we should have it.

tenpercentfirearms
05-02-2006, 10:26 PM
They did have a list of what was allowed. "NONE". That was the AR/AK series ban that was ruled null and void by the CA Supreme Court.

As much as I find some of these crazy theories crazy, they do serve a purpose. Lets keep brain storming. You never know what might help.

Then again, nothing really matters as the DOJ is going to do what the DOJ is going to do and when they do, we will find a way to stop them then too. The sooner the DOJ figures out that their best option is to list and blame the legislature for bad legislation, the sooner Lockyer gets himself out of trouble. Right now the legislature is going to blame him for incompetancy if push comes to shove. As soon as he lists, he greatly reduces his exposure and blame. Not to mention none of us are going to complain.

slowjonn
05-02-2006, 10:31 PM
If the DOJ do list, they will probably go with the first list they made back back in Jan-Feb.

A change to the Olympic arms classification to read:

CAR (all) take off the 97
add MFR (all).
Add "FEG" Hungarian as a classification
Model SA 85M
Add "Robinson Armament"
AK-47 series VEPR (all)
Add "DOUBLESTAR"
DSC STAR-15 rifles (all)
DSC STARCAR Carbine (all)
Add "DSA"
DS-AR (all)
Add "Barrett"
AR-series (all)
Add to Bushmaster - to go under model X M15E2S , Carbon 15 rifle and Carbon 15 pistol.
Add "European American Armory (EAA)"
Saiga
Add Century International Arms
WASR-10 (all)
Add FAR-15 (all)
Add STAG 15 (all)
JP - (all)
CMMG (all)
ADD

SUN DEVIL:D

MC Sweatshop
05-02-2006, 10:37 PM
Nevermind.....I'm not even going to jinx it.

Mr.RoDiN
05-02-2006, 10:50 PM
Will LMT be listed? I have two lauers. Oh please tell me they know about them lowers!! HEHE!


If the DOJ do list, they will probably go with the first list they made back back in Jan-Feb.

A change to the Olympic arms classification to read:

CAR (all) take off the 97
add MFR (all).
Add "FEG" Hungarian as a classification
Model SA 85M
Add "Robinson Armament"
AK-47 series VEPR (all)
Add "DOUBLESTAR"
DSC STAR-15 rifles (all)
DSC STARCAR Carbine (all)
Add "DSA"
DS-AR (all)
Add "Barrett"
AR-series (all)
Add to Bushmaster - to go under model X M15E2S , Carbon 15 rifle and Carbon 15 pistol.
Add "European American Armory (EAA)"
Saiga
Add Century International Arms
WASR-10 (all)
Add FAR-15 (all)
Add STAG 15 (all)
JP - (all)
CMMG (all)

TacFan
05-02-2006, 11:00 PM
I have LMT as well as Grizzly. They better list

Josh
05-02-2006, 11:00 PM
That list was NOT made by the DOJ, it was a 3rd pary gun control group writing a suggestion to them.

If the DOJ do list, they will probably go with the first list they made back back in Jan-Feb.

A change to the Olympic arms classification to read:

CAR (all) take off the 97
add MFR (all).
Add "FEG" Hungarian as a classification
Model SA 85M
Add "Robinson Armament"
AK-47 series VEPR (all)
Add "DOUBLESTAR"
DSC STAR-15 rifles (all)
DSC STARCAR Carbine (all)
Add "DSA"
DS-AR (all)
Add "Barrett"
AR-series (all)
Add to Bushmaster - to go under model X M15E2S , Carbon 15 rifle and Carbon 15 pistol.
Add "European American Armory (EAA)"
Saiga
Add Century International Arms
WASR-10 (all)
Add FAR-15 (all)
Add STAG 15 (all)
JP - (all)
CMMG (all)

blkA4alb
05-02-2006, 11:05 PM
Calm down people, that is not the list nor is it the list that they would probably use. That "list" leaves many brands un-listed and would not be very effective or broad. Not to mention the use of (all) is not sufficient to my knowledge. They also cannot just add "Barrett" to the list, it is not an AR/AK and must go through the courts to be listed, again, just "Barrett" would not cut it. It will be much more comprehensive than that, so chill. :cool:

Mr.RoDiN
05-02-2006, 11:07 PM
very cool! I think my tin foil hat was on too tight. Oh wait yes it was, I think it cut me!!!:)

bwiese
05-03-2006, 10:28 AM
If the list did happen, you can safely assume they will get 98+% of the makes and models of AR lowers currently being sold. (I dunno about AKs, but there are not that many AK receivers being sold in CA.)

markymark
05-03-2006, 11:00 AM
:D Picked up my 2 DCI fully built rifles yesterday (regular shoulder stock, no flash-hider, no grenade launcher, no built in micro-sized isotope separator/enricher and subsequent depleted-uranium bullet infuser, AND minus pistol grips of course).
Have any pictures? I'm looking into getting another one aside from my Arsenal SA-M7.

shopkeep
05-03-2006, 12:04 PM
If the list did happen, you can safely assume they will get 98+% of the makes and models of AR lowers currently being sold. (I dunno about AKs, but there are not that many AK receivers being sold in CA.)

I agree completely with you Bill. I think we're going to see a very impressive listing effort that will likely surprise us with how complete it is. Then after they list we'll start finding things not on the list and importing them.

I've already got cash set aside for the second generation of off-list lowers :D! Anyone else planning on buying during round 2?

tenpercentfirearms
05-03-2006, 12:15 PM
Buying for round two seems rather wasteful, but since I will be the one selling these round two lowers, I say go for it! Think about it. If they get listed and we win the court battle or there is no court battle and they give in, that means any round two lowers that come in and get listed are assured AW status. Can you say increased demand? With increased demand with extremely small supply, can you say cha ching?

I have my seven. I will not be needing anymore. I suggest you get yours now too, otherwise, be ready to go into debt, it won't be cheap. Today is probably the cheapest these things are going to get. I literally mean today. As soon as the list comes out, prices are going to go up. If the list comes out in our favor, they are going to skyrocket.

shopkeep
05-03-2006, 12:18 PM
Even a category 4 status list that gets challanged in court will make these go up in value. The DOJ has come up with a marketing technique that has assured proliferation of AR and AK firearms on a massive scale.

DV8
05-03-2006, 2:21 PM
Good God! Its December 2005 again! I hate that roller coaster feeling...:(

Leadthrower
05-03-2006, 2:27 PM
Good God! Its December 2005 again! I hate that roller coaster feeling...:(

LOL!, I know the feeling too...I'm calm now cause I only have a few more rifles on my "Rifles-to-buy List". I can wait forever because that means I'll only buy/build more rifles...:D

tenpercentfirearms
05-03-2006, 2:57 PM
This is nothing like Decemeber. December and January were very stressful months of not knowing what was going to happen and a race against the clock. Now we all have ours and whatever happens now, happens. This is nothing like December. I am much more relaxed.

thmpr
05-03-2006, 3:05 PM
This is nothing like Decemeber. December and January were very stressful months of not knowing what was going to happen and a race against the clock. Now we all have ours and whatever happens now, happens. This is nothing like December. I am much more relaxed.


Totally agree! And lets not forget that there were fewer vendors willing to ship to CA. Hate those costly overnight charges....:mad:

grammaton76
05-03-2006, 3:47 PM
Now we all have ours and whatever happens now, happens. This is nothing like December. I am much more relaxed.

So says the guy who doesn't have an order of AK receivers that won't make it in by Friday if they list then! I'm stressing like it's December again! :p

Fjold
05-03-2006, 6:41 PM
Good God! Its December 2005 again! I hate that roller coaster feeling...:(

Nah, in December I was dancing up and down with nervous energy waiting for the ten day wait to end to drive out to 10 Percent Firearms and pick up my first receiver. Then I was doing the "Happy Dance" with my new receiver and Sporting Conversions kit while anticipating the delivery of my LPK and J&T upper kit. Then I was doing the "Happy Dance" again when I got my first build done.

Now, I'm just waiting for the next shoe to drop.

stator
05-03-2006, 8:57 PM
I agree completely with you Bill. I think we're going to see a very impressive listing effort that will likely surprise us with how complete it is. Then after they list we'll start finding things not on the list and importing them.

I've already got cash set aside for the second generation of off-list lowers :D! Anyone else planning on buying during round 2?


To quote Diego from the movie Ice Age, "who's up for round 2!" [hand goes up]