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advocatusdiaboli
08-13-2010, 11:48 PM
I was in a LGS today and a store salesperson was showing an AR-15 type rifle to a customer and talked about the firearm having to be loaded by pulling the rear pin and opening it up the upper to fill the magazine and that being the only way it would be legal in CA.

I couldn't restrain myself and said "Well, you could use a bullet button." The salesperson said:"That's not legal--you must be one of those Calguns people. That's not legal and you'd better be careful. We don't sell those here and there is a good reason--they are not CA legal. Period."

I have to say I was surprised given that I bought my first M4 from another LGS (Spike's tactical M4-ST LE) and I assumed it was completely legal and still do BTW.

Wow I have to say I was taken aback. I didn't remember getting in my Hot Tub Time Machine. But there I was reliving what I thought was settled law. I can only state one thing from this...

The anti-gun folks have achieved their goal--we are confused and conflicted and rendered to living in fear of Big Brother. The odd thing is that they (the anti-gun crowd) don't even see how they are contributing to the 1984 scenario at all--they think lions will lie down with lambs if only they can win.

I have a chance at something on Oregon and I am more than ever inclined to take it and leave this bizarro world behind. I am getting fed up.

Joe
08-13-2010, 11:52 PM
What store did you go to?

advocatusdiaboli
08-14-2010, 12:02 AM
What store did you go to?

I am withholding as: 1) I like this store--a lot--they are good folks and have always treated my well and 2) if there is re-education to be done, I'd rather it be done with respect, privately and not shamefully.

Uriah02
08-14-2010, 12:07 AM
then why'd you post about it here?

advocatusdiaboli
08-14-2010, 12:09 AM
then why'd you post about it here?

Simple: to get some feedback on why some think bullet buttons are legal and why some think they are not. I would have thought that obvious from my post. Or do you think it's a good idea to have a feature on your firearm that you think is legal yet you can in reality go to prison for? If you do, you are probably in the minority here. I believe bullet buttons work but I have to admit this kind of thing shakes my faith a bit. And that is what Diane Feinstein wants--she's probably chuckling over this kind of thing--200 years ago, she'd be advising King George on how to defeat the rebellion--for the good of the people.

SJgunguy24
08-14-2010, 12:25 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=330697

Now you know why they are being obtuse.

asme
08-14-2010, 12:31 AM
I'm thinking... Sportsmen's Supply?

Quite a few stores only stock the Bushmaster top-loader and will tell unwitting customers that every AR-15 except the one they stock is illegal. I'm pretty sure a lot of customers fall for it given the relative complexity of California's gun laws.

Cokebottle
08-14-2010, 12:43 AM
I am withholding as: 1) I like this store--a lot--they are good folks and have always treated my well and 2) if there is re-education to be done, I'd rather it be done with respect, privately and not shamefully.
In that case, then go back, say "Why yes, I am a Calguns person, and BTW: Here are training memos from the Sacramento PD and Orange County Sheriff's Department both informing their officers that the BB is in fact legal."

Cokebottle
08-14-2010, 12:45 AM
Simple: to get some feedback on why some think bullet buttons are legal and why some think they are not.
#1 - There have been zero successful prosecutions against possession, construction, or use of legally configured OLL guns (legally configured meaning with a BB or other mag-locking device)
#2 - There have been multiple cases where Calgunners have had their weapons seized and returned without charges being pressed.

Soldier415
08-14-2010, 1:00 AM
then why'd you post about it here?
This

Alaric
08-14-2010, 1:03 AM
When they say that just say, "Well then i guess you don't need my business, period. Bye."

Take your cash to a store that fully supports our rights. Not some neutered version of them.

M14 Junkie
08-14-2010, 1:04 AM
I can only state one thing from this...

The anti-gun folks have achieved their goal--we are confused and conflicted and rendered to living in fear of Big Brother. The odd thing is that they (the anti-gun crowd) don't even see how they are contributing to the 1984 scenario at all--they think lions will lie down with lambs if only they can win.

I have a chance at something on Oregon and I am more than ever inclined to take it and leave this bizarro world behind. I am getting fed up.

Very well said....my sentiments exactly. It truely IS a bizzaro world here in Ca. when it comes to gun laws and a few other things.

Everything they come up with is, and has been, designed to chip away at the desire to own or sell firearms here. Because they KNOW damn WELL that they could never ban ownership outright. So this is their strategy. My FFL tells me that new laws coming down the pike are aimed at dealers...making it tougher for them.

They make you feel LIKE you are a lawbreaker just for wanting to own guns.

When I am legally transporting my legal guns anywhere, I cover them up in the back of my SUV, just because I don't want to be bugged by some LEO if I happened to get stopped.

"GUN" is a four-letter-word in this state. I have to admit like you, it gets to me.

It hasn't stopped me though. Thirty days ago I bought a revolver and I'm going to my FFL's house this AM to DROS a second one. And I won't say how much pistol ammo I have bought on-line this summer in anticipation of THAT ban.

Blackhawk556
08-14-2010, 1:29 AM
Yeah, why don't you rake him the sac memo and tell him " what now??"

If it really was illegal them why would this detective write this piece up.

If you don't want to name the place you should have just kept it to yourself and moved on. At least if we know the place some here could educate them and mail them the memo.

cmaynes
08-14-2010, 1:30 AM
if the place ran into to trouble with the ATF or DOJ on other issues, they might just be hyper conservative now-

studiousjr
08-14-2010, 4:48 AM
I'd like to know with certainty - what is the legality of the Monster Man grip?

What does the Sacramento PD and Orange County Sheriff's Department think of that? Has there been any proposed legality to the featureless AR or any other self loading centerfire for that matter?

I have not seen any dealers offer the monsterman on any rifles for sale, but the bullet button is everywhere these days. Does that mean it's not CA Kosher?

Please, can any one comment with authority to the legality of the MM? Because the local dealers in my area will not sell/buy or come near featureless builds with mags that drop free without the use of a tool.

Is this paranoia or is there a good reason the MM has not gained as much traction as the BB?

RRangel
08-14-2010, 5:25 AM
I'd like to know with certainty - what is the legality of the Monster Man grip?

What does the Sacramento PD and Orange County Sheriff's Department think of that? Has there been any proposed legality to the featureless AR or any other self loading centerfire for that matter?

I have not seen any dealers offer the monsterman on any rifles for sale, but the bullet button is everywhere these days. Does that mean it's not CA Kosher?

Please, can any one comment with authority to the legality of the MM? Because the local dealers in my area will not sell/buy or come near featureless builds with mags that drop free without the use of a tool.

Is this paranoia or is there a good reason the MM has not gained as much traction as the BB?

You really need to use the search function.

Check out: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page

Dealers are concerned about harrassment regardless of the legality.

Andy Taylor
08-14-2010, 6:51 AM
I'd like to know with certainty - what is the legality of the Monster Man grip?

What does the Sacramento PD and Orange County Sheriff's Department think of that? Has there been any proposed legality to the featureless AR or any other self loading centerfire for that matter?

I have not seen any dealers offer the monsterman on any rifles for sale, but the bullet button is everywhere these days. Does that mean it's not CA Kosher?

Please, can any one comment with authority to the legality of the MM? Because the local dealers in my area will not sell/buy or come near featureless builds with mags that drop free without the use of a tool.

Is this paranoia or is there a good reason the MM has not gained as much traction as the BB?

I know of at least two local stores that sell MM grips and similar in both complete rifles as well as just the parts to do your own featureless build. A MM grip OOL that is also devoid of a flash hider, bayonet lug, etc is no different legally than a Mini 14 or Kel-Tec SU16 that are both readily availble most anywhere, even stores that don't sell AR stuff.

studiousjr
08-14-2010, 7:10 AM
RRAngel thanks for the link to the wikical -that's very useful.

Andy, that's interesting about local stores who do sell the complete "featureless" rifle with the MM grip installed and no BB. If others have seen this too please post.

I've never seen it in a CA store so I've always wondered. Many of the locals here in Los Angeles are so paranoid they only just recently started to carry the AR's & others with BB's. Only after, from what I understand one of them that I know of got something in writing from the DOJ about the BB.

-Yet still they won't touch the MM! This really creates a lot of confusion.

nvzable
08-14-2010, 9:00 AM
confusion is their strategy, ignore them

Soldier415
08-14-2010, 9:04 AM
RRAngel thanks for the link to the wikical -that's very useful.

Andy, that's interesting about local stores who do sell the complete "featureless" rifle with the MM grip installed and no BB. If others have seen this too please post.

I've never seen it in a CA store so I've always wondered. Many of the locals here in Los Angeles are so paranoid they only just recently started to carry the AR's & others with BB's. Only after, from what I understand one of them that I know of got something in writing from the DOJ about the BB.

-Yet still they won't touch the MM! This really creates a lot of confusion.

Ask them for a copy of what they got from the DOJ in writing, and get it to Gene...

CSACANNONEER
08-14-2010, 9:13 AM
RRAngel thanks for the link to the wikical -that's very useful.

Andy, that's interesting about local stores who do sell the complete "featureless" rifle with the MM grip installed and no BB. If others have seen this too please post.

I've never seen it in a CA store so I've always wondered. Many of the locals here in Los Angeles are so paranoid they only just recently started to carry the AR's & others with BB's. Only after, from what I understand one of them that I know of got something in writing from the DOJ about the BB.

-Yet still they won't touch the MM! This really creates a lot of confusion.

I've seen stores that will only sell featureless guns and I've seen stores that won't sell any "evil" type of gun without a mag lock. In fact, I'm willing to go as far as to state that most stores I've been in only sell one or the other and refuse to open their minds and admit that both configurations are legal.

Sgt Raven
08-14-2010, 9:15 AM
RRAngel thanks for the link to the wikical -that's very useful.

Andy, that's interesting about local stores who do sell the complete "featureless" rifle with the MM grip installed and no BB. If others have seen this too please post.

I've never seen it in a CA store so I've always wondered. Many of the locals here in Los Angeles are so paranoid they only just recently started to carry the AR's & others with BB's. Only after, from what I understand one of them that I know of got something in writing from the DOJ about the BB.

-Yet still they won't touch the MM! This really creates a lot of confusion.

I've changed out the stock and flashhider and added a MMG to rifles we've sold at gunshows. ;)

I'd like to see what they got from the DOJ.

ETA: Most will just add a BB as it's easy and cheap to make the rifle legal.

dieselpower
08-14-2010, 9:24 AM
You need to post the name of the Store and a discription of the salesman.

We can not educate those people who are hidden from us. You are doing no good by posting this dribble.

You are in fact helping spread the FUD by allowing it to stay hidden.

Cokebottle
08-14-2010, 9:37 AM
Is this paranoia
Yes.
or is there a good reason the MM has not gained as much traction as the BB?
Because it's fugly and many simply do not like the ergos.

Both the MMG and the BB are compromises.

For a person who does not own any pre-ban high-caps, and does not compete in any situation where rapid mag changes are helpful, the MMG/Kydex wrap/etc has more "cons" than "pros".
Especially with the Gpik making mag release almost as convenient as a bare finger.


Legality of a MMG? It's featureless. Featureless is featureless and is 100% legal, be it a Springfield 30-06 semi-auto, an RAA Saiga Sporter, or any of the other hundreds of semi-auto rifles available.
The "evil features" are clearly defined in the PC.

The only questionable areas being the definition of "flash hider" vs "compensator".... a comp is not an evil feature, an FH is. Their examples indicate that if the opening of the muzzle device is the same as the bore of the rifle, then it's a comp, and if it's larger, it's an FH... yet browsing through available muzzle devices reveals many that appear to be in conflict.... the Smith Vortex and AAC Blackout appear to have a bore that matches the barrel, while YHM makes a couple where the bore is larger (but not as large as their FH models).

advocatusdiaboli
08-14-2010, 9:38 AM
Yeah, why don't you rake him the sac memo and tell him " what now??"

If it really was illegal them why would this detective write this piece up.

If you don't want to name the place you should have just kept it to yourself and moved on. At least if we know the place some here could educate them and mail them the memo.

I was conflicted because i've bought my ammunition there for the best prices around I could find, they are generally good folks, and this was the first time I happened to over hear this position on bullet buttons--I bought my Spike's M4 from another shop farther up North. I prefer to consult and think a bit on delicate issues like this before taking action as the way we handle these issues can change the outcome depending upon the approach taken.

The fact that he mentioned Calguns as soon as I mentioned the bullet button means they already know about the flowchart and Calgun's position. My going in with a flowchart would do zero. It will take someone of authority to do that with any chance of an effect at all. An LEO, Cal DOJ, an attorney with CGF.
I'm just a "Calgunner" as he said--the subtext of that statement is this: "you're a brainwashed Calgunnie and you don't know squat."


Now that I've had enough replies though I will name it: Sportsman's Supply as somebody already guessed.


UPDATED: I have an idea now (the detective memo plus flowchart plus and FFL friend who is an LEO and knows the manager). I'll take this off-line to some of the other CGF folks.

ETD1010
08-14-2010, 9:39 AM
When they say that just say, "Well then i guess you don't need my business, period. Bye."

Take your cash to a store that fully supports our rights. Not some neutered version of them.

I'm sorry, but I hate this kind of attitude. I mean, YES, I am all for spending your money where you want to (or a store that you support), but don't say things like "Take your cash to a store that fully support your rights." Well, I should have a RIGHT to have a NON-bb rifle, but that doesn't mean stores should break the law. These shops may not have an online presence, or the ability to research the heck out of things like most of us on this site do. The believe it is illegal, and are only trying to protect their shop (and themselves). Try to education them and give them a chance to learn and adapt. Our store has had nothing but positive feedback from DOJ and the DAs office here (as well as many many Law Enforcement Officers). They may not have. If they choose not to change their mind, move on and spend your money elsewhere. Store Policy is store policy, and it's not always an attack on someone's rights.

redneckshootist
08-14-2010, 9:39 AM
RRAngel thanks for the link to the wikical -that's very useful.

Andy, that's interesting about local stores who do sell the complete "featureless" rifle with the MM grip installed and no BB. If others have seen this too please post.

I've never seen it in a CA store so I've always wondered. Many of the locals here in Los Angeles are so paranoid they only just recently started to carry the AR's & others with BB's. Only after, from what I understand one of them that I know of got something in writing from the DOJ about the BB.

-Yet still they won't touch the MM! This really creates a lot of confusion.

Im actually sitting in a gun shop that sell both featureless OLL with MM or solar tactical grip wrap grip and ones with pretty much all evil features and bullet button installed, but of course that is my shop ;)

advocatusdiaboli
08-14-2010, 9:40 AM
When they say that just say, "Well then i guess you don't need my business, period. Bye."

Take your cash to a store that fully supports our rights. Not some neutered version of them.

That's retreat and the anti-gunners win.

In that case, then go back, say "Why yes, I am a Calguns person, and BTW: Here are training memos from the Sacramento PD and Orange County Sheriff's Department both informing their officers that the BB is in fact legal."

That's why I posted here (to all you knee-herk posters wondering why). I posted to get ideas on how to approach this issue and resolve it the right way and successfully. Being a hot head often ruins the chance of success in negotiation where a calmer less -threatening but still forceful approach could have succeeded. Given some of the responses here , I can see why CGF keeps some things secret while they are working them out. talk about too many cooks spoiling the soup.

Cokebottle
08-14-2010, 9:41 AM
A MM grip OOL that is also devoid of a flash hider, bayonet lug, etc is no different legally than a Mini 14 or Kel-Tec SU16 that are both readily availble most anywhere, even stores that don't sell AR stuff.
Bayo lug is not an evil feature per California law:

1 - Telescoping/folding buttstock
2 - Flash Hider
3 - Pistol Grip
4 - Forward Vertical/Pistol Grip (the Magpul AFG pushes the limits and I would not run one on a featureless build)
5 - Grenade Launcher

The Bayo lug was on the list of features in the Federal 1994 ban, and a few other states that still have AW bans list it because they followed the Federal ban in drafting their legislation.

advocatusdiaboli
08-14-2010, 9:48 AM
I'm sorry, but I hate this kind of attitude. I mean, YES, I am all for spending your money where you want to (or a store that you support), but don't say things like "Take your cash to a store that fully support your rights." Well, I should have a RIGHT to have a NON-bb rifle, but that doesn't mean stores should break the law. These shops may not have an online presence, or the ability to research the heck out of things like most of us on this site do. The believe it is illegal, and are only trying to protect their shop (and themselves). Try to education them and give them a chance to learn and adapt. Our store has had nothing but positive feedback from DOJ and the DAs office here (as well as many many Law Enforcement Officers). They may not have. If they choose not to change their mind, move on and spend your money elsewhere. Store Policy is store policy, and it's not always an attack on someone's rights.

Well said and exactly why I posted here--to get ideas on how to win. Not on how to put them down. To all you blustering keyboard ninjas:you aren't helping our cause--you are in fact hurting it with your bellicose attitudes and macho solutions. More often than not, such attitudes drive people with different conviction even further away from you.

Soldier415
08-14-2010, 9:49 AM
If BB and the like were illegal, PRK Arms would have been closed down after the BOF'ers showed up in force hell bent on finding something illegal.

Just sayin...

advocatusdiaboli
08-14-2010, 9:51 AM
Im actually sitting in a gun shop that sell both featureless OLL with MM or solar tactical grip wrap grip and ones with pretty much all evil features and bullet button installed, but of course that is my shop ;)

And don't I wish you were in my neighborhood. :(

advocatusdiaboli
08-14-2010, 10:05 AM
If BB and the like were illegal, PRK Arms would have been closed down after the BOF'ers showed up in force hell bent on finding something illegal.

Just sayin...


Just sayin'. Exactly. And exactly why they might not listen--it's just a "Calgunner" "just sayin'". They need some authority to change their minds not some "calgunner". If they are doing this out of fear of litigation, then maybe they'll just say back:"they just haven't be indicted by the DOJ yet."

This is a risky business in CA given the firearms hostile environment. I want to approach this very carefully. I'd rather win in the end than be hasty and close the door forever. I may be unsuccessful in this case and then I won't buy firearms or ammunition there any more but I want every chance of success. Why is that so hard to understand? Really, why?

Okay, I'm done.
:beatdeadhorse5:

Cokebottle
08-14-2010, 10:09 AM
then maybe they'll just say back:"they just haven't be indicted by the DOJ yet."
For an inspection that took place over 5 years ago?

Many shops have been shut down within that time period because they were doing thing that pushed the limits of legality... but none have been directly related to the BOF's interpretation of the BB/MMG laws.

WokMaster1
08-14-2010, 10:28 AM
Ask them for a copy of what they got from the DOJ in writing, and get it to Gene...

You, of all people should know not to question the authority of any gun store staff. Their word is the LAW!!!!!!:D

Sgt Raven
08-14-2010, 10:39 AM
Just sayin'. Exactly. And exactly why they might not listen--it's just a "Calgunner" "just sayin'". They need some authority to change their minds not some "calgunner". If they are doing this out of fear of litigation, then maybe they'll just say back:"they just haven't be indicted by the DOJ yet."

This is a risky business in CA given the firearms hostile environment. I want to approach this very carefully. I'd rather win in the end than be hasty and close the door forever. I may be unsuccessful in this case and then I won't buy firearms or ammunition there any more but I want every chance of success. Why is that so hard to understand? Really, why?

Okay, I'm done.
:beatdeadhorse5:


Sportsman's Supply was full of FUD long before any OLLs were on the market. :rolleyes:

Spaceghost
08-14-2010, 10:51 AM
Hey, when you sell craptastic sealed mag well bushmasters for 1200, you have to lie to move them at that price.

hoffmang
08-14-2010, 10:56 AM
If such a unicorn writing exists - well I'd love a copy.

Some things are afoot to add even more clarity to the legality of the bullet button.

There have been no successful prosecutions of BB/MMG/U-15 firearms owners in California though there have been arrests. I believe we've received findings of factual innocence in each case as well and I can tell you that everyone has gotten their firearm back.

-Gene

motorhead
08-14-2010, 11:18 AM
i think it very civic minded that a store would employ a retarded individual like that. did he drool much?

SJgunguy24
08-14-2010, 11:50 AM
If BB and the like were illegal, PRK Arms would have been closed down after the BOF'ers showed up in force hell bent on finding something illegal.

Just sayin...

Yep, I'm still a free man and I was down there for a few months. I started right after the shop was raided.

Just sayin'. Exactly. And exactly why they might not listen--it's just a "Calgunner" "just sayin'". They need some authority to change their minds not some "calgunner". If they are doing this out of fear of litigation, then maybe they'll just say back:"they just haven't be indicted by the DOJ yet."

This is a risky business in CA given the firearms hostile environment. I want to approach this very carefully. I'd rather win in the end than be hasty and close the door forever. I may be unsuccessful in this case and then I won't buy firearms or ammunition there any more but I want every chance of success. Why is that so hard to understand? Really, why?

Okay, I'm done.
:beatdeadhorse5:

I'm in your area and if your talking about Sportsman supply don't waste your time. They have their own business model and nothing you say or how much money they lose will change their minds. I'm still temped into taking an AK over there just to see them piss and moan about how illegal my legal gun is. I will debate any of those guys any day of the week.

One thing you need to understand is how the BOFers work. They intimidate, make sh*t up as they go, violate the rights of business owners, and are generally very unprofessional. Oh those laws, they mean nothing. Ask Allison.......oh wait, she opened her pie hole to the wrong person and now no longer works for the BOF.

If you want to go back to whatever shop that you heard that B.S., PM me and I'll meet you there. We'll walk in and let them know that people do not like being told they have broken the law when in fact they have done nothing of the sort.

Soldier415
08-14-2010, 12:00 PM
You, of all people should know not to question the authority of any gun store staff. Their word is the LAW!!!!!!:D
As a general rule, the two worst places to get your gun law information are gun store employees and cops.

I do my darndest to train our staff on the laws, and when I hear FUD I step in to instantly correct it.

We don't want to be "that shop"

:p

luckystrike
08-14-2010, 12:11 PM
name the place I want to order a stag with a bulletbutton from them

Alaric
08-14-2010, 12:41 PM
When they say that just say, "Well then i guess you don't need my business, period. Bye."

Take your cash to a store that fully supports our rights. Not some neutered version of them.
I'm sorry, but I hate this kind of attitude. I mean, YES, I am all for spending your money where you want to (or a store that you support), but don't say things like "Take your cash to a store that fully support your rights." Well, I should have a RIGHT to have a NON-bb rifle, but that doesn't mean stores should break the law. These shops may not have an online presence, or the ability to research the heck out of things like most of us on this site do. The believe it is illegal, and are only trying to protect their shop (and themselves). Try to education them and give them a chance to learn and adapt. Our store has had nothing but positive feedback from DOJ and the DAs office here (as well as many many Law Enforcement Officers). They may not have. If they choose not to change their mind, move on and spend your money elsewhere. Store Policy is store policy, and it's not always an attack on someone's rights.

You can try to educate them. Sure, go for it and more power to you. What i'm saying is BB's are now widespread in California. Go to any gunshow and you'll see them all over the place. You'll see them at most any range nowadays. You see them everywhere. If a store is still spreading this kind of FUD, now, in 2010, it's out of a stubborn unwillingness to get with the program.

In addition, these stores are actively spreading FUD to their customers. They are doing the anti's work for them. They are an active part of the problem, and not contributing to a solution in any way. Their position and their spreading of ignorance is an active assault on our rights.

Therefore, if they're unwilling to step up and get their facts straight they don't deserve my business and I won't support them.

SJgunguy24
08-14-2010, 12:52 PM
You can try to educate them. Sure, go for it and more power to you. What i'm saying is BB's are now widespread in California. Go to any gunshow and you'll see them all over the place. You'll see them at most any range nowadays. You see them everywhere. If a store is still spreading this kind of FUD, now, in 2010, it's out of a stubborn unwillingness to get with the program.

In addition, these stores are actively spreading FUD to their customers. They are doing the anti's work for them. They are an active part of the problem, and not contributing to a solution in any way. Their position and their spreading of ignorance is an active assault on our rights.

Therefore, if they're unwilling to step up and get their facts straight they don't deserve my business and I won't support them.

If the OP is talking about Sportsman supply, not only are they spreading FUD, they are also calling customers felons. Telling a person they are a felon because they THINK it could be illegal is flat wrong.
Just because somebody with the DOJ said they think it's illegal, or maybe even said it IS illegal means jack squat. All one needs to do is look at the history of the DOJ's BOF. They are bullys and punks. They treat people like crap and don't care about the laws on the books. What they say is law whether true or not.

Texas Boy
08-14-2010, 1:04 PM
To the OP,

I think the difficulty with Sportsman's Supply is there are several young people working there who are extremely opinionated and think they are experts. I think these young people are otherwise fine individuals, but they have fallen victim to thinking the little knowledge they have is all encompassing. In other words, they are not yet wise enough to realize they might have blind spots, or that there are things they don't know that they don't know.

I have heard these young "experts" spreading FUD and speaking with "authority" on the inaccuracy of Calguns. I have also witnessed (as have some of my gun buddies) theses "experts" sweeping patrons or even holding firearms pointed directly at them while showing fire arms to customers. I have not had enough interaction with the owner to understand why this behavior has not been corrected, but it needs to be, and should be done tactfully and respectfully as you suggest.

There are things I like about Sportsman's Supply and I would like to see them enlightened and prosper, not spread FUD. If you know the owner I would suggest arranging a private conversation and present documented facts - lots of them. I would also make a big deal over the sweeping of patrons by his employees. That alone makes me extremely nervous about going in there. And for the record, SS isn't the only south bay gun store where I have seen young employees engage in that type of behavior.

CABilly
08-14-2010, 2:26 PM
All you needed to do was a search on Sportsmen's Supply. They've been discussed ad nauseam on this site.

rimfire78
08-14-2010, 3:27 PM
I know of at least two local stores that sell MM grips and similar in both complete rifles as well as just the parts to do your own featureless build. A MM grip OOL that is also devoid of a flash hider, bayonet lug, etc is no different legally than a Mini 14 or Kel-Tec SU16 that are both readily availble most anywhere, even stores that don't sell AR stuff.

Bayonet lug?? ........Anyone?

kf6tac
08-14-2010, 3:36 PM
Bayonet lug?? ........Anyone?

Already covered. Check Cokebottle's post on page 1.

Cokebottle
08-14-2010, 3:36 PM
Bayonet lug?? ........Anyone?
Already addressed above.
Not an SB23 named feature.
It was a feature of the 1994 Federal AW ban, but is no longer prohibited on the Federal level or in California.

It is a named-feature in other states that have their own AW bans, but their bans, in general, allow for either one or two "evil features" before AW status is triggered.

That's why a Federal "post ban" AR10/15/AK (no bayo lug, no FH, non-threaded barrel, fixed stock, WITH pistol grip) was legal under the Federal ban, and is still legal in other states.

POLICESTATE
08-14-2010, 3:43 PM
Sportsmen's Supply is the only San Jose area gun store I know of that has this attitude. I'm assuming Target Masters is not the store in question as I don't know anyone willing to consider them a good STORE to shop at in the first place. But I could stand to be corrected on that score :rolleyes:

Sportsmen's Supply is a good store if you know what you are looking for with guns, if you need advice on hunting or certain other things, and they carry powders and primers.

However I find that their prices are not better than any other stores and they are completely full of FUD. I used to go there once a week or so because they are close to my work in Los Gatos but after hearing so much FUD with them talking to other customers I only go there if I need to and I'm in and out.

I would still buy a gun from them if I saw a good deal though.

Can't say the same for Target Master's though, I avoid that place like the plague.

Fate
08-14-2010, 3:51 PM
If the OP is talking about Sportsman supply, not only are they spreading FUD, they are also calling customers felons. Telling a person they are a felon because they THINK it could be illegal is flat wrong.
Someone should call them on it. "If you think this is a felony, why don't you perform a citizen's arrest on me? If you're right, I get time and you can gloat about taking a ne'er-do-well off the streets. If you're wrong, I'll sue for wrongful arrest. We'll see who owns this shop when the dust clears. Come on toughguy. Here's a phone. Call it in." ;)

POLICESTATE
08-14-2010, 5:13 PM
Someone should call them on it. "If you think this is a felony, why don't you perform a citizen's arrest on me? If you're right, I get time and you can gloat about taking a ne'er-do-well off the streets. If you're wrong, I'll sue for wrongful arrest. We'll see who owns this shop when the dust clears. Come on toughguy. Here's a phone. Call it in." ;)

I wouldn't, they seem a little jumpy there. Just sayin'.

Dump1567
08-14-2010, 5:36 PM
Bring them a copy of of the OC Sheriffs' memo:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf



From the memo:

There has been an increase of AR-15 and AK-47 type firearms sold in California that at first glance appear to be an assault weapon, but these firearms have a device installed called a "Bullet Button". This device prevents the shooter from depressing the magazine release button with a finger. The magazine can quickly be released by using a "tool', which can be the tip of a bullet or some other tool to depress the enclosed magazine release button. Once a bullet button is installed and there is an attached magazine capable of holding only 10 rounds, the firearm no longer has a "detachable magazine" as required for a Category 3 type of assault weapon as per Penal Code Section t2276.1(a)(L). This is an example of a bullet button.


http://www.riflegear.com/images/product/medium/58_2_.jpg

Cokebottle
08-14-2010, 5:38 PM
Bring them a copy of of the OC Sheriffs' memo:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf


Careful though....
Once a bullet button is installed and there is an attached magazine capable of holding only 10 rounds,
Even the memo contains a small bit of FUD.

SJgunguy24
08-14-2010, 6:51 PM
[QUOTE=Dump1567;4783221][F them a copy of of the OC Sheriffs' memo:[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT]

[LEFT][F



[SIZE=3][SIZE=3][F the memo:[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[F

You can tell somebody that Elvis is dead. In their heart they know he's alive, you have a body to show them, you have DNA evidence, you have everything you need to declare him dead, and yet they say. Nope, he's alive.

Some people refuse to move beyond their safe little circle. Progress will either eat them alive or they will carve a small nitch where all Elmer Fud's go to buy everything and die.

eaglemike
08-14-2010, 6:56 PM
You can try to educate them. Sure, go for it and more power to you. What i'm saying is BB's are now widespread in California. Go to any gunshow and you'll see them all over the place. You'll see them at most any range nowadays. You see them everywhere. If a store is still spreading this kind of FUD, now, in 2010, it's out of a stubborn unwillingness to get with the program.

In addition, these stores are actively spreading FUD to their customers. They are doing the anti's work for them. They are an active part of the problem, and not contributing to a solution in any way. Their position and their spreading of ignorance is an active assault on our rights.

Therefore, if they're unwilling to step up and get their facts straight they don't deserve my business and I won't support them.
Royal Loan in San Diego will sell you a lower and require you to sign a form stating you'll only use BB's and 10 round magazines - BUT - they won't PPT the same lower with BB, parts kit and stock installed. I find that somewhat interesting..... They no longer get my business.
all the best,
Mike

SJgunguy24
08-14-2010, 7:21 PM
Royal Loan in San Diego will sell you a lower and require you to sign a form stating you'll only use BB's and 10 round magazines - BUT - they won't PPT the same lower with BB, parts kit and stock installed. I find that somewhat interesting..... They no longer get my business.
all the best,
Mike

I don't think that is legal. Not 100% I'll have to check but as I understand the FFL has to PPT any type of firearm they sell.

CSACANNONEER
08-14-2010, 7:29 PM
I don't think that is legal. Not 100% I'll have to check but as I understand the FFL has to PPT any type of firearm they sell.

Yep and "type" means long gun or handgun. Just becasue a shop won't sell an AK/AR style rifle doesn't mean they can refuse to PPT one.

Sgt Raven
08-14-2010, 8:59 PM
Bring them a copy of of the OC Sheriffs' memo:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf



From the memo:


They don't care, they know what they know and you can't change that. :TFH:

Alaric
08-14-2010, 9:27 PM
Royal Loan in San Diego will sell you a lower and require you to sign a form stating you'll only use BB's and 10 round magazines - BUT - they won't PPT the same lower with BB, parts kit and stock installed. I find that somewhat interesting..... They no longer get my business.
all the best,
Mike

Mike, that's why I don't buy from Royal Loan in SD. I buy lowers from KD directly and build from parts acquired elsewhere. Take your business to the merchants who are knowledgeable and support what little rights we have left in this fascist police state of ours.

Grakken
08-14-2010, 9:50 PM
Royal Loan in San Diego will sell you a lower and require you to sign a form stating you'll only use BB's and 10 round magazines - BUT - they won't PPT the same lower with BB, parts kit and stock installed. I find that somewhat interesting..... They no longer get my business.
all the best,
Mike

Parallax Tactical. They serve the black rifle niche quite well.

Now, If a shop spreads FUD, I would be trying to find a new shop. I don't care how good their ammo or any other crap is. YMMV.

Flopper
08-14-2010, 10:25 PM
I'm sorry, but I hate this kind of attitude. I mean, YES, I am all for spending your money where you want to (or a store that you support), but don't say things like "Take your cash to a store that fully support your rights." Well, I should have a RIGHT to have a NON-bb rifle, but that doesn't mean stores should break the law. These shops may not have an online presence, or the ability to research the heck out of things like most of us on this site do. The believe it is illegal, and are only trying to protect their shop (and themselves). Try to education them and give them a chance to learn and adapt. Our store has had nothing but positive feedback from DOJ and the DAs office here (as well as many many Law Enforcement Officers). They may not have. If they choose not to change their mind, move on and spend your money elsewhere. Store Policy is store policy, and it's not always an attack on someone's rights.

The difference between SS and other FFL's I've dealt with that won't deal with EBR's: the FUD.

It's one thing to not deal with EBR's; it's another to call EBR owners felons.

Even though I live around the corner from SS, I gladly travel much further to FFL's that are reasonable.

I've boycotted SS for YEARS because of that behavior, and needless to say, they've lost a LOT of business.

Patronizing such stores only encourages such bad behavior. They will not listen to reason, so hit them in the pocketbook.

erik
08-15-2010, 5:20 PM
If you want to go back to whatever shop that you heard that B.S., PM me and I'll meet you there. We'll walk in and let them know that people do not like being told they have broken the law when in fact they have done nothing of the sort.

Count me in on this as well!

The last time I think I bought anything* from them was in December, 1999.

-=erik.
(* slight chance I may have bought a box or two of ammo in the passing.)

Andrewman
08-15-2010, 6:24 PM
Any one can tell me where to get Orange County memo as well. We have the link to Sacremento memo. Thanks!

Never mind I found it!

ke6guj
08-15-2010, 6:28 PM
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/

javalos
08-15-2010, 7:34 PM
More FUD at gun shops, thank God there are still a few gun shops that are cool and understand the law.

Flopper
08-15-2010, 10:05 PM
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/

Normally this would be my response, but they will not listen to reason.

To be fair, I was conflicted at first about boycotting them since the longtime managers there are very nice and helpful, and the location could only be more convenient if they were LITERALLY next door.

It's the employees that spread the FUD; but when it comes down to it, who is responsible for the employees?

And to anyone who thinks firearms businesses' policies don't have an effect on our rights: remember Ruger and how that helped get the Fed AWB?

lrdchivalry
08-16-2010, 9:30 AM
Royal Loan in San Diego will sell you a lower and require you to sign a form stating you'll only use BB's and 10 round magazines - BUT - they won't PPT the same lower with BB, parts kit and stock installed. I find that somewhat interesting..... They no longer get my business.
all the best,
Mike

That is why I no longer give them my business. I sold a Stag rifle with BB and went there to do the PPT. The guy told me it didn't matter if the rifle was legal and that I had to strip the lower if I wanted to PPT it there. He did seem to have a worried look on his face when I told him I would spread the word around that they were not OLL friendly. Went to American Shooting Center and did the PPT.

santacruzstefan
08-16-2010, 1:00 PM
Perhaps if we got a group of people, say, at least 20-30, to individually go into Sportsmens Supply, at different times of the day, over the course of a week, and ask about getting an off-list bullet buttoned rifle. Nobody would carry a flowchart, nobody would mention CG, they would just appear like normal customers, and say they had spoken to a cop/heard from a friend/talked to a guy at the range that told them they were legal. I would think that if the shop just saw $20k+ in profits walk out the door, they might reevaluate their policy.

Wherryj
08-16-2010, 2:12 PM
I was in a LGS today and a store salesperson was showing an AR-15 type rifle to a customer and talked about the firearm having to be loaded by pulling the rear pin and opening it up the upper to fill the magazine and that being the only way it would be legal in CA.

I couldn't restrain myself and said "Well, you could use a bullet button." The salesperson said:"That's not legal--you must be one of those Calguns people. That's not legal and you'd better be careful. We don't sell those here and there is a good reason--they are not CA legal. Period."

I have to say I was surprised given that I bought my first M4 from another LGS (Spike's tactical M4-ST LE) and I assumed it was completely legal and still do BTW.

Wow I have to say I was taken aback. I didn't remember getting in my Hot Tub Time Machine. But there I was reliving what I thought was settled law. I can only state one thing from this...

The anti-gun folks have achieved their goal--we are confused and conflicted and rendered to living in fear of Big Brother. The odd thing is that they (the anti-gun crowd) don't even see how they are contributing to the 1984 scenario at all--they think lions will lie down with lambs if only they can win.

I have a chance at something on Oregon and I am more than ever inclined to take it and leave this bizarro world behind. I am getting fed up.

I had a guy at my local store (which I'll leave nameless) say the same thing to a customer as I was standing there. After the guy left I walked up to discuss the AR-15 with BB that the store had ordered for me.

He said that the store didn't like to say that BBs were legal due to the DoJ's memo nonsense, but the store felt protected if they were to sell one attached by the factory. He also wasn't too keen on guaranteeing legality as a seller, but reading between the lines made me feel that it was more a store being "careful" in their wording.

Sgt Raven
08-16-2010, 5:26 PM
Perhaps if we got a group of people, say, at least 20-30, to individually go into Sportsmens Supply, at different times of the day, over the course of a week, and ask about getting an off-list bullet buttoned rifle. Nobody would carry a flowchart, nobody would mention CG, they would just appear like normal customers, and say they had spoken to a cop/heard from a friend/talked to a guy at the range that told them they were legal. I would think that if the shop just saw $20k+ in profits walk out the door, they might reevaluate their policy.

:TFH:They don't care, they're full of FUD, and don't care what you say or show them.:TFH:

joedogboy
08-16-2010, 6:40 PM
This is a problem with "case law" vs. written legislation. Case law requires that you be familiar with the case in question.

Another reason we can't stop until all these stupid anti 2A laws are repealed and removed from the books.

greasemonkey
08-17-2010, 7:27 AM
I was in a LGS today and a store salesperson was showing an AR-15 type rifle to a customer and talked about the firearm having to be loaded by pulling the rear pin and opening it up the upper to fill the magazine and that being the only way it would be legal in CA.

Hahaha, I just had someone ask me about this specifically, he was in The Range in Fresno and was told the exact same thing. Amazing. They're REALLY GOOD to local LEO, though, so people assume with so many cops going through there, they MUST know the letter of the law...:rolleyes:

Another local gun shop owner said that PRK is a bunch of rebels and they're all going to get arrested before too long. The question of "how come they've been audited and inspected so many times and have not been arrested, charged with anything or property confiscated?" went nowhere.

Both these two that I mention are good shops and have been helpful to a lot of people but come on...at least get the facts straight.

mcholak
08-17-2010, 8:13 AM
A couple of the local spots here in Fresno were doing the same thing......amazingly many of them are now carry AR's sporting BB's. Go figure!

dieselpower
08-17-2010, 8:26 AM
Perhaps if we got a group of people, say, at least 20-30, to individually go into Sportsmens Supply, at different times of the day, over the course of a week, and ask about getting an off-list bullet buttoned rifle. Nobody would carry a flowchart, nobody would mention CG, they would just appear like normal customers, and say they had spoken to a cop/heard from a friend/talked to a guy at the range that told them they were legal. I would think that if the shop just saw $20k+ in profits walk out the door, they might reevaluate their policy.


In Ventura county there were two hold-out FUD stores. Camarillo Shooters and Shooters Paradise in Oxnard. Both store were linked to each other by owner friendship and even shared employees. Both stores at first refused to even allow talk of AR15s in the store. At the first word out of a customers mouth they would be asked to leave the store....(I was asked to leave after asking if they carried LPKs).

When other stores in the area Uncle Pauls and Fort Courage started selling AR15s and AK47s like candy the FUD stores changed their minds...at an extreme cost mind you. Last I checked the FUD stores still wanted over $190 for a $90 stripped lower. $$ talks I guess.

This store in the OP already knows the deal. They know they are loosing money. They don't care. The Store's management and sales staff are against EBRs. They feel civilians should not own EBRs and support regulation to ban firearms. Do not support this store. Do not even park in their lot. Anyone entering this store gives the appearance that they have a customer base...so dont go in there. Starve the store out of business. I would support a boycott of the store by handing out information packets showing their FUD and support for anti-gun laws.

KylaGWolf
08-17-2010, 9:42 AM
I was conflicted because i've bought my ammunition there for the best prices around I could find, they are generally good folks, and this was the first time I happened to over hear this position on bullet buttons--I bought my Spike's M4 from another shop farther up North. I prefer to consult and think a bit on delicate issues like this before taking action as the way we handle these issues can change the outcome depending upon the approach taken.

The fact that he mentioned Calguns as soon as I mentioned the bullet button means they already know about the flowchart and Calgun's position. My going in with a flowchart would do zero. It will take someone of authority to do that with any chance of an effect at all. An LEO, Cal DOJ, an attorney with CGF.
I'm just a "Calgunner" as he said--the subtext of that statement is this: "you're a brainwashed Calgunnie and you don't know squat."


Now that I've had enough replies though I will name it: Sportsman's Supply as somebody already guessed.


UPDATED: I have an idea now (the detective memo plus flowchart plus and FFL friend who is an LEO and knows the manager). I'll take this off-line to some of the other CGF folks.

If they know about Calguns then good bet they also have the memos and such that are here on Calguns. Why not just contact the DOJ and have them send you a letter on the legality of the BB. I am sure they would be more than happy to send you the information. If I also remember correctly there may also be something on the legality of the BB through the AG of California. Just thoughts that those may carry more weight than any training memo from a PD here in California.

motorhead
08-17-2010, 10:04 AM
DOJ doesn't do approvals. the very fact that no DOJ "letter" is available is used in argument by the fud spreaders. the ag letter only concedes defeat on expanding the aw list.

motorhead
08-17-2010, 10:06 AM
BTW, elvis is dead?

greasemonkey
08-17-2010, 11:04 AM
BTW, elvis is dead?

Yes, he and JFK were laid to rest in a nursing home fighting an ancient egyptian mummy. Bubba Ho-Tep documents the REAL fate of Elvis and JFK.

SJgunguy24
08-17-2010, 12:07 PM
Hahaha, I just had someone ask me about this specifically, he was in The Range in Fresno and was told the exact same thing. Amazing. They're REALLY GOOD to local LEO, though, so people assume with so many cops going through there, they MUST know the letter of the law...:rolleyes:

Another local gun shop owner said that PRK is a bunch of rebels and they're all going to get arrested before too long. The question of "how come they've been audited and inspected so many times and have not been arrested, charged with anything or property confiscated?" went nowhere.

Both these two that I mention are good shops and have been helpful to a lot of people but come on...at least get the facts straight.

PRK rebels??? No, freedom fighters is a better term. Jeff puts his career, his reputation, and his money into getting into CA what has been denied to us for so long.
If people know half of what it takes to get the guns he gets into a CA compliant transferable configuration they would stop crying about prices as much.

AEC1
08-17-2010, 12:59 PM
That is why I no longer give them my business. I sold a Stag rifle with BB and went there to do the PPT. The guy told me it didn't matter if the rifle was legal and that I had to strip the lower if I wanted to PPT it there. He did seem to have a worried look on his face when I told him I would spread the word around that they were not OLL friendly. Went to American Shooting Center and did the PPT.

I remember not so long ago American Shooting Center was not OLL friendly eather...

greasemonkey
08-17-2010, 2:31 PM
I figure if a shop doesn't want to do OLL's or just plain doesn't know about 'em and doesn't want to exhaustively research it, take your business somewhere that does business in a way that suits your needs.

However, if a shop is actively involved in restricting our rights, be loud, be vocal, out them for the backstabbing thieves they are.

lrdchivalry
08-19-2010, 4:07 PM
I remember not so long ago American Shooting Center was not OLL friendly eather...

They are now, and I didn't have to strip the lower to do the PPT.