PDA

View Full Version : Can you image what this could mean!


Josey Wales
08-13-2010, 9:32 PM
If this type of common sense was applied across all LEA's?!!!

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-sheriff-memo-20100814,0,6976664.story?track=rss

Crawfish141
08-13-2010, 9:40 PM
AW are so evil that logic can not be applied to cases related to them.

Helpful_Cub
08-13-2010, 9:40 PM
I don't believe common sense exists in California, but you'll find lots of fruits and nuts.

Ron-Solo
08-13-2010, 9:52 PM
Believe it or not, I was taught this in the LASD academy in 1978. The "Spirit of the law vs the Letter of the law" concept. It's not a new concept. It just gets lost in the mix sometimes.

Vox
08-13-2010, 9:59 PM
I was taught that last semester in CA POST classes...

PsychGuy274
08-14-2010, 1:00 AM
*Applause*

People that are not harming other people or taking away their rights do not belong in jail and do not deserve to have the label of misdemeanor/felony for the rest of their life. Those scum who violate other's rights or harm others deserve to be put to death.

Sorry, passionate issue for me :)

Great read. I loved it.

timdps
08-14-2010, 8:56 AM
being caught with an illegal folding pocket knife

Is there such a thing (excluding switchblades)?

Tim

chuckdc
08-14-2010, 9:18 AM
Believe it or not, I was taught this in the LASD academy in 1978. The "Spirit of the law vs the Letter of the law" concept. It's not a new concept. It just gets lost in the mix sometimes.

Penal Code section 4. Yup. It's even codified into the law.

Milsurps
08-14-2010, 9:42 AM
If this type of common sense was applied across all LEA's?!!!

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-sheriff-memo-20100814,0,6976664.story?track=rss

Growing up in California this use to be the norm for Policing. Got scolded and sent home by the LA and Burbank PD a couple times with no further fallout. After 911 and the state became twisted up in its panties politically LEA's have an Attitude now. We are all bad guys, they (LEA's) are out to save society and have something to prove.
Just my opinion, but contact with most LEO's the last several years have been less than polite or professional. :(


Ah the good ol days...

YMMV

Pvt. Cowboy
08-14-2010, 10:58 AM
"Felony" in California used to mean "An outrageous crime committed by a very bad person who deserves to be locked away from decent society".

Today, you can get a felony in California for dumping an old dishwasher in a 'protected wetlands' or popping a seagull on the beak with a rolled up newspaper if it tries to steal your french fries at the beach. Dumping your used motor oil down a sewer is a total dirty redneck thing to do, but it shouldn't rise to Felony status.

I can't even imagine what sort of felonies California will invent to control it's pesky law-abiding citizens in another generation...

Ron-Solo
08-14-2010, 11:01 AM
I used to take wayward juveniles home and let their parents deal with them without a lot of hoopla and such. If we do that now, they file a complaint, accuse us of kidnapping, being racist, etc, and sue us. It is just easier to book them, write the report, and let the courts deal with them. We have written documentation to support why we did things and the evidence to support our actions.

Sad, but true.

tango-52
08-14-2010, 11:11 AM
Unfortunately, this is exactly the justification that the DOJ/BoF Field Agents are using with regard to spreading FUD about Bullet Buttons. They feel that the "spirit of the law" was that no civilians should be allowed to have anything resembling an assault weapon. Therefore, even if it is technically legal in black-letter law (BB, MMG), it is wrong and needs to be confiscated and arrests made.

faterikcartman
08-14-2010, 11:39 AM
Illegal folding pocket knife = felony??? WTF???

Would love to know more about what happened there. Myself and a good buddy have a folding clip on in our pockets pretty much everywhere.

Window_Seat
08-14-2010, 12:16 PM
I was taught SOTL v. LOTL in dispatch academy several years back, and how it should be applied. I always look favorably upon LEAs who practice it properly, and there are LEOs out there who really do.

HST, I seriously doubt that one is going to use this same SOTL when dealing with the discovery of legally kept ARs if or when they are not educated on the legality of the BB equipped AR. As long as the standard calls for "arrest on the side of caution", there will continue to be a problems with enforcement of certain laws that exist and don't exist.

Erik.

Shotgun Man
08-14-2010, 12:20 PM
If I was a cop, I wouldn't arrest people for petty offenses if I could avoid it.

Decoligny
08-14-2010, 12:25 PM
Is there such a thing (excluding switchblades)?

Tim

They don't send people to "State Prison" for misdemeanors, only felonies.

Therefore, if you have a folding pocket knife with a blade longer than 2.5", or one that locks, on school ground or in school, you can get a felony charge.

PC 626.10. (a) (1) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer
as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of
Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the
federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this
state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests
or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in
assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this
state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his
or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick,
knife having a blade longer than 2 1/2 inches, folding knife with a
blade that locks into place, razor with an unguarded blade, taser, or
stun gun, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 244.5, any
instrument that expels a metallic projectile such as a BB or a
pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring
action, or any spot marker gun, upon the grounds of, or within, any
public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any
of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, is guilty of a public offense,
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year,
or by imprisonment in the state prison.

Decoligny
08-14-2010, 12:32 PM
Unfortunately, this is exactly the justification that the DOJ/BoF Field Agents are using with regard to spreading FUD about Bullet Buttons. They feel that the "spirit of the law" was that no civilians should be allowed to have anything resembling an assault weapon. Therefore, even if it is technically legal in black-letter law (BB, MMG), it is wrong and needs to be confiscated and arrests made.

Unfortunate that they don't realize that the Spirit of the Law arguement is really a one way street. If the "Spirit of the Law" is to keep a criminal from doing something, then the full force of the letter of the law shouldn't be brought down on a non-criminal. Thus limiting the application of the letter of the law.

The bullet button example above is totally backwards. It is saying "The letter of the law doesn't say this, but it meant to, so arrest the sucker and take his gun." This is giving the letter of the law MORE power than it actually has, and that is illegal underground regulation.

tyrist
08-14-2010, 12:39 PM
When it comes to felonies there is no discretion; only with misdemeanors and infractions.

Also while the city, and police supervisors cannot by law have any quotas your not going to get good assignments unless you generate numbers.

steel-cut
08-14-2010, 12:50 PM
That was a very good article. Thank you for posting it.

Phouty
08-14-2010, 12:55 PM
Luckily, I don't have much personal experience dealing with LEAs and LEOs. (Except for occasional traffic tickets. Total of 3 in 40 years of driving).
Maybe I'm wrong, but in such places like OC for example, relations between LEOs and population could be still categorized as quite friendly and based on mutual respect. My model citizen adult son (years ago in his teenage years), went through some "growing pains". If not for a common sense, and proper application of SOTL rule by officers from Tustin PD, the kid could have had a lot of problems now as an adult, originating from his years of "mutiny".
Maybe everything depends on how each particular PD is being managed by local community leaders?

Shotgun Man
08-14-2010, 1:13 PM
Luckily, I don't have much personal experience dealing with LEAs and LEOs. (Except for occasional traffic tickets. Total of 3 in 40 years of driving).
Maybe I'm wrong, but in such places like OC for example, relations between LEOs and population could be still categorized as quite friendly and based on mutual respect. My model citizen adult son (years ago in his teenage years), went through some "growing pains". If not for a common sense, and proper application of SOTL rule by officers from Tustin PD, the kid could have had a lot of problems now as an adult, originating from his years of "mutiny".
Maybe everything depends on how each particular PD is being managed by local community leaders?

SOTL? Scholarship of Teaching and Learning?:confused:

ETA: I get it-- spirit of the law. Google did not reveal it. That was a long walk to the mailbox. I question the use of impromptu acronyms.

Window_Seat
08-14-2010, 1:24 PM
SOTL? Scholarship of Teaching and Learning?:confused:

ETA: I get it-- spirit of the law. Google did not reveal it. That was a long walk to the mailbox. I question the use of impromptu acronyms.

I intended to indicate it so it would be here, but forgot. I'll go SITCFTW now.:p

Erik.

Phouty
08-14-2010, 1:58 PM
SOTL? Scholarship of Teaching and Learning?:confused:

ETA: I get it-- spirit of the law. Google did not reveal it. That was a long walk to the mailbox. I question the use of impromptu acronyms.
Appologize for the confusion. As a newbe I simply thought, that this acromym (which I just learned myself) was well known. Tried to sound "professional".;)
BTW. I spend myself a lot of time trying to decipher some of the acronyms.
Maybe we should go back to the basics, and stop "saving on ink"?:rolleyes:

Josey Wales
08-14-2010, 6:37 PM
My father was PD in a small town. I grew up with knowing most of the officers on the force, up to and including the Chief. The change from then to now(forty + yrs) is huge. Only a few on the force are from or live in town. One would think with the attitudes some of them have that we live in their world of black and white, "this is what I was told in the academy and cannot use my own judgement."

Thanks OJ.

Roadrunner
08-14-2010, 6:50 PM
It would seem to me that any law that has that much latitude is probably over reaching and should be abolished. I'm not sure what the point of most of the laws that restrict the carrying and usage of knives police clubs, blow guns, hand guns, etc. etc. is except to control and disarm the general public. If what Ron-Solo says is true, then it appears either cops aren't being taught this anymore or they are arresting people just because they can. In either case, it sounds like a very good reason to make those laws go away.

SJgunguy24
08-14-2010, 10:31 PM
I used to take wayward juveniles home and let their parents deal with them without a lot of hoopla and such. If we do that now, they file a complaint, accuse us of kidnapping, being racist, etc, and sue us. It is just easier to book them, write the report, and let the courts deal with them. We have written documentation to support why we did things and the evidence to support our actions.

Sad, but true.

Your a good man Ron. In my younger days I did plenty of stupid stuff and there was a cop who took the time to steer me in the right direction. He would pick me up at least once a week and we would just drive around and talk. I was 13-14 years old living in a group home and that was what I needed. To this day I still think well what if, what if he didn't take the time, what if he treated me like all the other eff ups? He seen something and took the time to see that I would have a chance to make it.

CCWFacts
08-14-2010, 10:41 PM
The essence of the memo is that there are so many felonies on the books that basically everyone is guilty of them, and a felony basically ruins a person's life, and therefore officers should give some consideration to that before they take some normal member of society and destroy his or her life over a Malum prohibitum crime. I'm very glad to see that this situation is recognized and understood within law enforcement. Unfortunately, the real solution to this is to have less felonies on the books, but our society seems to be going vigorously in the opposite direction. Officers shouldn't be put in a position of having to act like a judge on the street.

I used to take wayward juveniles home and let their parents deal with them without a lot of hoopla and such. If we do that now, they file a complaint, accuse us of kidnapping, being racist, etc, and sue us. It is just easier to book them, write the report, and let the courts deal with them. We have written documentation to support why we did things and the evidence to support our actions.

Ron is clearly one of the best, caught in the messy reality we have today, unfortunately.

How this relates to guns: I have heard many stories of unofficial permission to carry here in California, especially for women.

As the memo said:

"We've all done stupid stuff in our lives and, if you're reading this, I guess we have to be thankful that we didn't have the misfortune of running into some hard-line cop when we were doing it," he wrote.

"Some people need to come to jail and some don't," he wrote.

I completely agree with that idea, but there's also a risk of selective enforcement.

timdps
08-14-2010, 11:48 PM
Thanks for that. So the issue with 2.5"+ folders is having the on school grounds, not the length of the blade.


They don't send people to "State Prison" for misdemeanors, only felonies.

Therefore, if you have a folding pocket knife with a blade longer than 2.5", or one that locks, on school ground or in school, you can get a felony charge.

PC 626.10. (a) (1) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer
as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of
Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the
federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this
state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests
or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in
assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this
state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his
or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick,
knife having a blade longer than 2 1/2 inches, folding knife with a
blade that locks into place, razor with an unguarded blade, taser, or
stun gun, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 244.5, any
instrument that expels a metallic projectile such as a BB or a
pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring
action, or any spot marker gun, upon the grounds of, or within, any
public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any
of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, is guilty of a public offense,
punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year,
or by imprisonment in the state prison.

duldej
08-14-2010, 11:52 PM
i think that what is meant by taking into account the character of the perpetrator is whatever comes back on the cb when the leo radios-in the drivers license or id of the perpetrator to weigh his character first, and then second to take into consideration the behavior of the perpetrator and then weigh that.
somewhere between the background of the person and his present behavior that leo needs to make an adequate judgment call.
in terms of psychology you can measure a man similarly by contrasting his past versus his present behavior.
i think i understand where that lieutenant is coming-up with this line of law enforcement.

sreiter
08-15-2010, 1:44 PM
i grew up in NJ - more times then not, the cops would just give you beating to straighten your punk-***** out, and send you on your way.