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cmichini
08-13-2010, 3:31 PM
Hello FFLs:
A thread in the handguns forum prompted a question regarding the receipt required for a gun lock as required for purchasing a handgun in CA.

Question:
Does the receipt HAVE to be from an official retail store or can you purchase a lock from an individual (with the seller providing a receipt) to satisfy the requirements to have a lock for each handgun purchased and the receipt to be dated within (???) days of the pistol purchase?

I've heard people say you can buy one Walmart, do your pick up and return the lock to Walmart soon after. I CAN do this, but I don't think it's right to use a retailer's inventory like this, even though convenient, even if I don't necesarily like Walmart.

Any insight is appreciated, including how any of you FFLs would address an 'informal' receipt (i.e., written out by a private party vs. printed from a register) when having a customer do a pick up of a handgun.

The question is not only hypothetical, but practical. I am picking up a revolver next week, I have an ample safe, and NUMEROUS locks, but none with a recent receipt. I am willing to ACTUALLY do a purchase of a lock so in theory, and reality, I have purchased a lock recently, I just don't want to play the purchase/return game, nor do I want to pay full retail for superfluous gear when I have another shooter who will sell me one for the purpose CHEAP (like 50 cents - he has extas, too, because he also has a safe).

I also don't want to get into a hassle at the FFL, nor do I want to have to buy a lock at pick up (which would be more expensive than Walmart, I'm sure).

How say you?

And, thanks in advance for your responses, insight and assistance.

Cheers,

Mssr. Eleganté
08-13-2010, 4:40 PM
There is nothing in the law that says the receipt must be from an "official retail store". I usually purchase locks from my girlfriend and she gives me a very official looking receipt printed up from a computer. I give a copy of this receipt to the FFL and they keep it with the DROS record for that sale.

G-forceJunkie
08-13-2010, 7:02 PM
Related question: Many pistols come with approved locks when you buy them. If I buy a pistol from a private party that comes with all the original equiptment, including the lock, would this suffice? Technicaly I am buying the pistol, and magazine and case and lock from the owner. yay or nay?

ke6guj
08-13-2010, 7:18 PM
it should meet the requirements of state and federal law, expecially if you get a receipt from the seller, but not all FFLs will accept it.

jtmkinsd
08-14-2010, 5:20 PM
The following is the actual text of the safety device law. If your receipt satisfies the criteria there should be no problem. The hardest part about buying a lock from an individual is getting the correct name and model number of the device...this is where you could get into a jam with your FFL...and it is up to them to accept or reject the receipt.

(e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.

In the case of private party transfers, when a lock is included in the box or with the gun all I can say is most FFL's will accept it as a valid exemption from purchasing a new lock. You may run into the grumpy ones however who may make you buy a new one because the one that came with the gun is not on the official list of CA approved safety devices.

lugar
08-14-2010, 6:23 PM
Hello FFLs:
A thread in the handguns forum prompted a question regarding the receipt required for a gun lock as required for purchasing a handgun in CA.

Question:
Does the receipt HAVE to be from an official retail store or can you purchase a lock from an individual (with the seller providing a receipt) to satisfy the requirements to have a lock for each handgun purchased and the receipt to be dated within (???) days of the pistol purchase?

I've heard people say you can buy one Walmart, do your pick up and return the lock to Walmart soon after. I CAN do this, but I don't think it's right to use a retailer's inventory like this, even though convenient, even if I don't necesarily like Walmart.

Any insight is appreciated, including how any of you FFLs would address an 'informal' receipt (i.e., written out by a private party vs. printed from a register) when having a customer do a pick up of a handgun.

The question is not only hypothetical, but practical. I am picking up a revolver next week, I have an ample safe, and NUMEROUS locks, but none with a recent receipt. I am willing to ACTUALLY do a purchase of a lock so in theory, and reality, I have purchased a lock recently, I just don't want to play the purchase/return game, nor do I want to pay full retail for superfluous gear when I have another shooter who will sell me one for the purpose CHEAP (like 50 cents - he has extas, too, because he also has a safe).

I also don't want to get into a hassle at the FFL, nor do I want to have to buy a lock at pick up (which would be more expensive than Walmart, I'm sure).

How say you?

And, thanks in advance for your responses, insight and assistance.

Cheers,

Just fill out the safe affidavit and you're gtg.

jtmkinsd
08-14-2010, 11:20 PM
Just fill out the safe affidavit and you're gtg.


The safe affadavit is not an option for handgun purchases

kemasa
08-15-2010, 9:12 AM
There is a Federal law regarding locks/safes with handguns, but the rules have not been published, as required, and some of it is unclear, depending on whether you read the law or talk to some in the BATF. This is why some consider the safe affidavit to not be acceptable for handguns.

CSACANNONEER
08-15-2010, 9:20 AM
The safe affadavit is not an option for handgun purchases

Well, it really is an option for handguns. It does take the place of requiring a receipt for a lock (State law). However, you would still need a lock for it when leaving the store (Federal law). The problem is that not all FFLS are capable of understanding how both laws work. So, some simplify and combine these two requirements by taking the most restrictive of each and believing that it is the ONLY legal way. Normally, these FFLs also sell $25 gun locks to meet the requirement. Many times, these $25 locks are given to them FREE by their local LEA and ment for FREE distribution.

jtmkinsd
08-15-2010, 6:09 PM
Well, it really is an option for handguns. It does take the place of requiring a receipt for a lock (State law). However, you would still need a lock for it when leaving the store (Federal law). The problem is that not all FFLS are capable of understanding how both laws work. So, some simplify and combine these two requirements by taking the most restrictive of each and believing that it is the ONLY legal way. Normally, these FFLs also sell $25 gun locks to meet the requirement. Many times, these $25 locks are given to them FREE by their local LEA and ment for FREE distribution.

I misspoke, the reason I said the safe affadavit is not an option for handguns is because the purchaser is required to present a receipt for the lock-box they are going to store the hand gun in AND fill out the affadavit and sign it. In the many cases I have experienced not one person still had the receipt for their lock box.

As for $25 locks, It's hard to imagine swallowing that pill. We sell a CA approved cable lock for $6.50 which works for 99% of the handguns out there. There are very rare occasions where a cable lock simply won't fit the gun in question. In those instances we always inform our customers they will need to bring a lock when they come pick up. We leave it up to them where and how much they pay for it.

cmichini
08-16-2010, 9:48 AM
There is nothing in the law that says the receipt must be from an "official retail store". I usually purchase locks from my girlfriend and she gives me a very official looking receipt printed up from a computer. I give a copy of this receipt to the FFL and they keep it with the DROS record for that sale.

Thanks to all the responders, especially the reference from the law.

I plan on doing the same with a receipt/invoice printed up which will have the model number since the lock I will buy (privately) will still be in the original packaging.

I'd like to also print out the safety device law language to provide necessary supporting documentation in case the FFL gets snotty about it. Is there a reference/link (I'd like to be able to print directly from a gov't site vs. a posting in a forum)?

When I do the pick-up, I'll update my original post to provide feedback as to how well/smoothly this transpired.

Thanks again. Calguns rocks!!

Mssr. Eleganté
08-16-2010, 9:16 PM
...I'd like to also print out the safety device law language to provide necessary supporting documentation in case the FFL gets snotty about it. Is there a reference/link (I'd like to be able to print directly from a gov't site vs. a posting in a forum)?

If you go to this page on CalDOJ's web site...

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12087.php

...and scroll down to Section 12088.1(e) you can do a print screen from there. I actually did the same thing you are planning to do, but none of the FFLs have ever questioned the gun lock receipts that I provide, so I've never had to show them the print out of Section 12088.1(e).

cmichini
08-17-2010, 4:06 PM
Thanks guys for all the info.

Current plan is:
I purchased a CA DOJ approved lock from my brother, who had an extra from the recent purchase of a Mossberg shotgun. (He has a safe too, and extra locks). I have a receipt that shows purchase of a gun lock (with model number) dated within 30 days from DROS pick up.

Lock that came with the shotgun actually had a flyer with the Mfg. and model number. The lock is also marked with the model number.

I have a print out from the DOJ that shows this model number as a CA DOJ Approved Gun Safety Device and it indicates (although provided my manufacturer with a shotgun) that it is approved for a myriad of weapons, including the double action revolver to be picked up.

I'll chime in after the weekend pick up to provide post-mortem.

Thanks to all for the assistance.

Cheers

SVT-40
08-17-2010, 6:50 PM
I think you missed the part about the federal law requiring a lock to be "furnished" the day of pick-up.

If your receipt is dated for any date other than the day you actually pick up your handgun you will not be complying with federal law.

The thirty day requirement is a California thing. You need to comply with both the federal law as well as the California lock laws.

kemasa
08-17-2010, 6:51 PM
There is no Federal law with regards to the receipt. In fact, the rules have not been published, as required. The view of some in the BATF is that the FFL must provide the lock or safe and that the buyer can not.

SVT-40
08-17-2010, 7:40 PM
There is no Federal law with regards to the receipt. In fact, the rules have not been published, as required. The view of some in the BATF is that the FFL must provide the lock or safe and that the buyer can not.

FFL's still have to comply, and a receipt dated the day of pick up is the only way to document compliance. BATFE requires it. The auditor which has been to our shop the past few years said a receipt dated the day of pick up, or copy there of is sufficient to meet the requirements of the federal child lock law.

How else can a FFL show compliance when a BATFE auditor checks for compliance?

jtmkinsd
08-17-2010, 8:12 PM
FFL's still have to comply, and a receipt dated the day of pick up is the only way to document compliance. BATFE requires it. The auditor which has been to our shop the past few years said a receipt dated the day of pick up, or copy there of is sufficient to meet the requirements of the federal child lock law.

How else can a FFL show compliance when a BATFE auditor checks for compliance?

I need to research the exact bill, but after the Federal gun lock law was passed, an amendment was tacked on to a law enforcement bill subsequently passed by congress. The amendment which was proposed by a Colorado congresswoman I believe overturned the Federal requirement by barring it's enforcement.

Just remember that agents can be wrong too...just like the DOJ...and us as well...so the proof is in the documentation...if an ATF agent were to tell me that (I've not had one say anything concerning gun locks), I would agree with him when he's there...but a follow up call to BATF asking for the written language would be made

Mssr. Eleganté
08-17-2010, 9:24 PM
I need to research the exact bill, but after the Federal gun lock law was passed, an amendment was tacked on to a law enforcement bill subsequently passed by congress. The amendment which was proposed by a Colorado congresswoman I believe overturned the Federal requirement by barring it's enforcement.

If I recall correctly, the amendment added by congresswoman Marilyn Musgrave never made it out of the House of Representatives. The reason BATFE never came up with clarification for this lock law was because everybody assumed the gun lock part of the PLCA Act would be voided by Musgrave's amendment. But then a few months later the Republicans lost both the House and the Senate before the Senate could approve the bill.

halifax
08-17-2010, 9:34 PM
FFL's still have to comply, and a receipt dated the day of pick up is the only way to document compliance. BATFE requires it. The auditor which has been to our shop the past few years said a receipt dated the day of pick up, or copy there of is sufficient to meet the requirements of the federal child lock law.

How else can a FFL show compliance when a BATFE auditor checks for compliance?

BATFE does not require it, your auditor is. The statute doesn't say anything about documentation.

18 U.S.C. 922(z), regarding secure gun storage or safety device, states in part that it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device for that handgun at the time of the firearm sales transaction.

ETA: 4473 Line 30c instructions say "This box is for the FFL's use in recording any information he or she finds necessary to conduct business." Sounds like a very good place to write the FSD information to me. But, again, it's not in the text of the law to document it or anywhere else that I've heard of.

kemasa
08-18-2010, 9:25 AM
There is NO requirement of how to document, so there is NO need to document it. One BATF agent told me that they are told that only if the actually see a violation can they do anything about it.

Your inspector was wrong and you are wrong about the requirements.

jtmkinsd
08-18-2010, 12:04 PM
There is NO requirement of how to document, so there is NO need to document it. One BATF agent told me that they are told that only if the actually see a violation can they do anything about it.

Your inspector was wrong and you are wrong about the requirements.

The Federal law is incredibly vague and stupidly written. The first definition of what a "safety device" is reads as follows:

(34) The term "secure gun storage
or safety device" means—
(A) a device that, when installed
on a firearm, is designed to prevent
the firearm from being operated without
first deactivating the device;

That could mean just about anything. There's also no information on what exactly it means to "furnish" one, and no guidlines for documentation. This is why CA came out with the approved list of safety devices and requirements to prove purchase of a lock for the gun your buying. Granted the CA law isn't perfect either, but at least it offers a framework to put together a packet of documentation when transfering a firearm.

kemasa
08-18-2010, 12:12 PM
The law mentions a safe specifically, but the BATF lawyer claims that the FFL has to provide the lock or the safe. The wording is bad, but I don't read it the same way, but that does not matter.

I think that CA already had the law before this law passed and is easier to understand, even if you don't like it. You could buy 500 locks, but then you have to play games to not have to buy another one (lock exchange, fake receipt, etc.).

ke6guj
08-18-2010, 12:24 PM
The Federal law is incredibly vague and stupidly written. .that is why BATF was supposed to publish the supporting regulations that frame the law. They never did.

SVT-40
08-18-2010, 3:10 PM
I need to research the exact bill, but after the Federal gun lock law was passed, an amendment was tacked on to a law enforcement bill subsequently passed by congress. The amendment which was proposed by a Colorado congresswoman I believe overturned the Federal requirement by barring it's enforcement.

Just remember that agents can be wrong too...just like the DOJ...and us as well...so the proof is in the documentation...if an ATF agent were to tell me that (I've not had one say anything concerning gun locks), I would agree with him when he's there...but a follow up call to BATF asking for the written language would be made

Here is a link to a BATFE letter to all FFL's listing their requirements per the "child safety act".

I have also included the text of the letter.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/04/042106-openletter-ffl-child-safety-locks.html

The following letter is addressed to all Federal Firearms Licensees, from the U.S. Department Of Justice...

"April 21, 2006

OPEN LETTER TO FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSEES
CHILD SAFETY LOCK ACT OF 2005

This serves to notify you that Public Law 109-92 (119 Stat. 2095), the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, was enacted October 26, 2005. Section 5 of Public Law 109-92, cited as the Child Safety Lock Act of 2005 (CSLA), amended the Gun Control Act by adding Section 922(z) to 18 U.S.C. This new section makes it generally unlawful for "any licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person, other than another licensee, unless the transferee (buyer) is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device for that handgun." The statute provides that it becomes effective April 24,2006. ATF has prepared the regulation that will implement this statute. At this time, the regulation is pending approval by the Department of Justice and the Office of Management and Budget. The review process most likely will take several more months. Once the regulation is approved, ATF will publish an Interim Rule in the Federal Register regarding the new law. While the Interim Rule will not be published by April 24th, the requirement to "provide" a safety device with the transfer of any handgun is mandated beginning on that date pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(z). Accordingly, licensees must make the necessary arrangements to provide secure gun storage or safety devices with the transfer of handguns from the April 24th effective date.

As enacted, the law does not require safety devices to be provided where the handgun transfer is between FFLs. The law also provides for additional exceptions. ATF will issue and Open Letter once the Interim Rule is published. "Questions and Answers" regarding the CSLA will be posted on our Web site at http://www.atf.gov clarifying certain points of the legislation. We look forward to industry members' questions and comments. For additional information...

Audrey Stucko
Deputy Assistant Director
Enforcement Prorams and Services"

kemasa
08-18-2010, 4:51 PM
Ok, so where is the receipt requirement? No one is arguing that you don't have to have a lock, but there is nothing that requires you to do anything else, including documenting it in any way, shape or form.

There is also some question on the "provide" part. That is unclear in the law and the letter is not the law.

The BATF never did what they said they would in the letter, which is a bit of a problem.

jtmkinsd
08-18-2010, 5:11 PM
Problem with Federal law...4 year old letter saying they'll provide more detailed information on the requirements...and we're still waiting...lol

SVT-40
08-18-2010, 5:24 PM
Silly yes, and yes we are still waiting.

But if you are an FFL holder are you willing to risk loosing your license because you could not provide proof of compliance? When a receipt dated the day of pickup will provide proof of compliance?

halifax
08-18-2010, 6:56 PM
Silly yes, and yes we are still waiting.

But if you are an FFL holder are you willing to risk loosing your license because you could not provide proof of compliance? When a receipt dated the day of pickup will provide proof of compliance?

Are you willing to just rollover and give them back your license for an alleged violation of a requirement in the law that doesn't exist?

jtmkinsd
08-18-2010, 7:37 PM
ATF routinely goes through the books (which includes all the documentation of gun locks with receipts dated up to 29 days before pick up) and I've never even heard an utterance of not being in compliance. Compliance is easy to prove. Just show me where in the law the receipt has to be dated the day of pick up???

kemasa
08-19-2010, 8:52 AM
The Federal law does not require any proof at all. Any claims to the contrary are made up and should be dealt with. You really don't want individuals making up rules and regulations.

AIMSMALL
08-23-2010, 9:00 PM
If you go to this page on CalDOJ's web site...

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12087.php

...and scroll down to Section 12088.1(e) you can do a print screen from there. I actually did the same thing you are planning to do, but none of the FFLs have ever questioned the gun lock receipts that I provide, so I've never had to show them the print out of Section 12088.1(e).

Here's the part in the link that has my attention (bold)
12088.1. (a) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state, shall include or be accompanied by a firearms safety device that is listed on the Department of Justice's roster of approved firearms safety devices and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on the roster for use with the device. (b) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state shall be accompanied with warning language or labels as described in Section 12088.3.
(c)(1) All long-gun safes commercially sold or transferred in this state, or manufactured in this state for sale in this state, that do not meet the standards for gun safes adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2 shall be accompanied by the following warning:
"WARNING: This gun safe does not meet the safety standards for gun safes specified in California Penal Code Section 12088.2. It does not satisfy the requirements of Penal Code Section 12088.1, which mandates that all firearms sold in California be accompanied by a firearms safety device or proof of ownership, as required by law, of a gun safe that meets the Section 12088.2 minimum safety standards developed by the California Attorney General."

(2) This warning shall be conspicuously displayed in its entirety on the principal display panel of the gun safe's package, on any descriptive materials that accompany the gun safe, and on a label affixed to the front of the gun safe.
(3) This warning shall be displayed in both English and Spanish in conspicuous and legible type in contrast by typography, layout, or color with other printed matter on the package or descriptive materials in a manner consistent with Part 1500.121 of Title 16 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or successor regulations thereto.
(d) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if both of the following apply: (1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the standards set forth in Section 12088.2. Gun safes shall not be required to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards without appearing on the Department of Justice roster.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt or proof of purchase with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.
(e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if all of the following apply: (This is the one most gun shops seem to have a hard on for)
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with the dealers' record of sales of firear

So here's my question, why can't I sign a safe affidavid for a handgun?
As for the child safety act, why can't I use a lock I already owned to satisfy this requirement and the safe affidavid to satisfy 12088.1?

AIMSMALL
08-23-2010, 9:06 PM
Also want to mention that a local FFL told me today during a PPT for my newest addition that, "they stopped doing the safe affidavid a few years ago." (meaning DOJ stopped doing it). They said they are doing things the way CA DOJ's auditor tells them they must.

I believe this is FUD, what do you guys have to say about this?

ke6guj
08-23-2010, 9:30 PM
Also want to mention that a local FFL told me today during a PPT for my newest addition that, "they stopped doing the safe affidavid a few years ago." (meaning DOJ stopped doing it). They said they are doing things the way CA DOJ's auditor tells them they must.

I believe this is FUD, what do you guys have to say about this?CADOJ didnt stop doing the Safe Affidavit a few years ago. The Safe Affidavit exemption still complies with CA safety lock laws. However, "a few years ago" the feds passed their own handgun safety lock law, and the CA safe affidavit is not acceptable to the feds. So, the end result is that you can't use an affidavit when you purchase a handgun, but because of the federal auditors, not because ofCADOJ's auditors.

jtmkinsd
08-23-2010, 11:47 PM
So here's my question, why can't I sign a safe affidavid for a handgun?
As for the child safety act, why can't I use a lock I already owned to satisfy this requirement and the safe affidavid to satisfy 12088.1?

FEDERAL LAW:

18 U.S.C. § 922(z) was added to
the Gun Control Act as part of the
“Protection of Lawful Commerce in
Arms Act” enacted on October 26,
2005. It is effective April 24, 2006.
(z) SECURE GUN STORAGE OR
SAFTEY DEVICE—
(1) IN GENERAL- Except as
Provided under paragraph (2), it shall
be unlawful for any licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, or
licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or
transfer any handgun to any person
other than any person licensed under
this chapter, unless the transferee is
provided with a secure gun storage
or safety device (as defined in sec
tion 921(a)(34)) for than handgun.

CA STATE LAW:

12. FIREARM SAFETY DEVICE REQUIREMENT
Each firearm sold, transferred, or manufactured in California must be accompanied with a firearm
safety device approved by the Department of Justice and identified as appropriate for that firearm.
The Department of Justice is required to compile and publish a listing of all of the safety devices that
have been determined to meet the department’s standards. A list of these devices is available on the
Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms website at http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist.htm.
(Penal Code § 12088.1.)
The term “long-gun safe” is distinct from “gun safe” and “firearms safety device.” A
“long-gun safe” means a locking container designed to fully contain and secure a rifle or a shotgun.
A “long-gun safe” must have a locking system consisting of either a mechanical combination lock
or an electronic combination lock that has at least 1,000 possible unique combinations consisting
of a minimum of three numbers, letters, or symbols per combination, and that is not listed on the
Department of Justice Roster of Firearm Safety Devices. (PC § 12087.6).

Feds (and CA) require the lock...CA requires the receipt...the gun safe is not acceptable for your handgun because you would need to buy a gun safe for every handgun you buy and have an original receipt for it...not to mention bring it to your FFL to pick up the gun...do you really want to load a safe in and out of your vehicle to pick up a handgun?

kemasa
08-24-2010, 9:23 AM
You do not need the receipt for the safe. Take a look at the form, there is a place that needs to be initialed if the receipt is not available.

The problem with already having the lock is the claim by the BATF that the FFL must provide the lock. So, if you were to give the lock to the FFL at the start of the paperwork and the FFL were to provide it to you when you pick it up, then it should be ok, but some FFLs might not want to do that. You can also do a lock exchange.

You can satisfy the CA requirement by having a safe and you do not need a receipt for the lock for the Feds. The lock would also needs to be a CA certified lock.

jtmkinsd
08-24-2010, 7:27 PM
You do not need the receipt for the safe. Take a look at the form, there is a place that needs to be initialed if the receipt is not available.

The problem with already having the lock is the claim by the BATF that the FFL must provide the lock. So, if you were to give the lock to the FFL at the start of the paperwork and the FFL were to provide it to you when you pick it up, then it should be ok, but some FFLs might not want to do that. You can also do a lock exchange.

You can satisfy the CA requirement by having a safe and you do not need a receipt for the lock for the Feds. The lock would also needs to be a CA certified lock.

If he finds one willing to go along with that he should post it...hard to imagine...pretty common around the shops that the only way you take away a handgun where the lock didn't come with the gun is buying one and the FFL copying the receipt...or the FFL "giving" him one with the transaction...of course the cost of that is usually passed on through a higher transfer fee.

AIMSMALL
08-24-2010, 9:19 PM
Ok guys, I'm feeling like maybe you didn't read the laws I posted above before answering, 12088.1 D1 and D2 state that you are exempt from 12088.1.A if you own
a gun safe and provide "other proof of purchase or ownership" to me this means you don't need a reciept and you don't need to bring the safe with you either and since they don't specify what types of "other proof of purchase or ownership" are acceptable that opens the door to an affidavid. That should satisfy the CA law.

As for the Federal law, it doesn't state that the lock must be "provided" by the FFL or that there must be a reciept so locks that I already own that are "for that handgun" should be fine.

I do appreciate your input guys and I don't intend to sound like a know it all, this is just the way it reads to me and I'm wondering if anyone might share my perspective or possibly have something concrete to show that I'm incorrect.

ke6guj
08-24-2010, 10:40 PM
Ok guys, I'm feeling like maybe you didn't read the laws I posted above before answering, 12088.1 D1 and D2 state that you are exempt from 12088.1.A if you own
a gun safe and provide "other proof of purchase or ownership" to me this means you don't need a reciept and you don't need to bring the safe with you either and since they don't specify what types of "other proof of purchase or ownership" are acceptable that opens the door to an affidavid. That should satisfy the CA law.

As for the Federal law, it doesn't state that the lock must be "provided" by the FFL or that there must be a reciept so locks that I already own that are "for that handgun" should be fine.

I do appreciate your input guys and I don't intend to sound like a know it all, this is just the way it reads to me and I'm wondering if anyone might share my perspective or possibly have something concrete to show that I'm incorrect.
we are familiar with the laws that you posted above, what was not clear was what you were asking. Now, I see that you are trying to deal with each set of laws separately, by using the safe affidavit to comply with CA law, and then providing the FFL a lock without a receipt in order to comply with federal law. That idea has been talked about here on CG for a while now, and if you can get an FFL to go along with it, it could work. Be aware tht CA law may require tha the lock that you provide the FFL be on the CA safety lock roster in order for the FFL to provide it back to you. So, you have that to deal with as well.

jtmkinsd
08-24-2010, 10:58 PM
It's not that I'm trying to be a stick in the mud. I think the laws, both Federal and State are ridiculous. But yeah, the trick is finding an FFL who buys into your interpretation of what those laws require. No FFL who doesn't already conduct his/her business in the manner you've suggested is going to risk his license, or a fine, or both for a dumb lock. So in the end, once again, a stupid set of laws just winds up costing the legal gun owners and dealers more money and headaches.

and just to clarify I was being facetious about loading the gun safe in the car to pick up a handgun :)

cmichini
08-25-2010, 8:12 AM
Follow up:

So for all the hand-wringing, worrying, planning, etc., when I went to do the pick up the FFL looked at the safe affidavit and just kept on rolling with the transfer/pick up. No mention made whatsoever of a lock/receipt for the HG pick up.

However, had they asked for it, I think my approach was both reasonable, compliant, and supportable.

I had:
A printed receipt (from an MS Excel spreadsheet - it's the Bill of Sale document I use when I sell any item that I think needs a receipt) for a lock with the model number on it, dated within 30 days.
A printout from CA DOJ's website for approved gun safety devices for THAT model, which indicated it was acceptable for rifles, shotguns, etc. including the double action revolvers (my pick up).
The lock itself with the model number on it.

Note: This was the lock came with a Mossberg shotgun, so if you have to produce a CA DOJ compliant lock at a HG pick up, check the locks that came with any new guns you've purchased, or your close friends have purchased.

You may be able to produce adequate documentation to meet the new Fed law, and not have to buy more locks that are probably redundant like mine since everyone lives in the vault.

Cheers and thanks to all for the input and feedback. I see there were a few additional discussions in the thread and am glad that my practical question spurred some serious discourse on the laws and how to ensure we comply with them (because ridiculous as they are if we don't comply we're not doing ourselves or our cause much good).

kemasa
08-25-2010, 9:05 AM
I talked to the BATF attorney and he claimed that the law states that the FFL must provide the lock OR the safe. I do not read it that way, but it does not matter since I do not enforce the law.

Cochise82
08-25-2010, 9:19 AM
Regardless of what the laws are, you're kind of tied to whatever the guy with the FFL is comfortable doing. One of the local shops here sells $5 locks and knows there is other methods of getting around buying one, but the guy there just says "spend $5 for your $400 gun and no one has to worry about the law." The then follow up by giving me good ideas of what to do with all your "extra" gun locks, such as locking his trailer hitch and his kid's bike.