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50 Freak
05-01-2006, 11:27 AM
I went to the gas station today to fill up. Big long line...waited patiently for a long time and finally filled up. Noticed the air in my tires were low so I went to the air station. Couple of cars in front of me, so I waited there and pulled my car up when it was my turn. At this station, you have to go ask the attendant to turn on the air, which I did.

The attendant turned on the air and I was happily pumping air when I noticed a couple of cars pull up behind me. The machine stopped and I had only filled up two tires. So I again went up and asked the attendant to turn on the air. When I got back the guy in the care behind me had pulled the air hose all the way to his car and was filling up his tires....Pretty freaking rude....But I didn't say anything and just stood there and waited.

The guy then realized that he couldn't reach the back part of his tires and told me to move my car up. I was flabbergasted. I said no, that I had been waiting and was in the process of filling my car when he cut in line. He said I got out of line and left my car which gave him the right to take the pump. I calmly explained that at this station, you have to ask the attendant to turn on the pump. Now, this guy is visibly agitated, and I'm not backing off (stupid mistake on my part). He's obviously bigger than me and starts coming towards me saying something like it's an emergency.....I'm thinking okay, it's an emergency....what???? you have a party to get to???? what????

I told him to back off and in my hand I had one of those Palm Protector OC sprays. I flicked off the safety and his eyes caught that. He backs off and then his friends start coming in. Two other guys....then this older lady (she was in another car I guess) comes over and asks if I can move my car. I said no, that her boys were rude. She says it's an emergency and asks again. I said if you had just asked me nicely in the first place I'd be glad to do it and didn't appreciate the intimidation from her boys.

So I move my car forward. I get out and am back to waiting.

They move their car closer to the the air pump and the two guys start filling up the tires.

I'm standing by my car waiting for a while and after they had finished using the pump. The big guy again comes over and says something about kicking my ***. I told him to learn some manners and at this point him and his two friends start advancing on me.

I drew my shirt back and put my hand on my Glock 20 and unholster it. One of the guys says what the hell you doing? you going to shoot us for some stupid air. I respond that the way I see it, 3 guys visibly agitated are getting pretty close to my physical space and I took it as a physical threat.

Now here's the part I found funny. Upon seeing, that I'm not backing down, one of the guys pulls out his cell and says he's calling the cops. I said fine, I have a permit to carry and I was protecting myself. Anyways, they get back into their cars and drive off.

I calm down a sec and get in my car and drive off to work.

I think had I not had the gun, I would have been definitely had the crap beat out of me.

In retrospect, I wonder if I should have just backed off in the first place and let them do whatever they wanted. I know it was over a stupid thing as filling your tire up with air and had something happened I would never forgive myself. But jeez, where do you draw the line?

Please give me your honest opinion on what you think I did right or did wrong. But keep it polite.

bwiese
05-01-2006, 11:35 AM
The worry I have is that YOU, perhaps, should've reported this. When situations like this happen, it's sometimes 'the 1st one reports wins'. If you report "unusual aggressiveness/hostility", "jumpiness", etc. "strange behavior" - they just might think it was some tweakin' meth heads. A couple of years ago I was giving a description to a cop of a possible bad guy in an apt bldg, and I specifically noted his jumpiness and bad complexion, and we agreed there's a good chance he was a methie.

Your issue could have been couched by them, in a police report, in terms of 'brandishing' to their simple request for more space at the pump and that your reaction was irrational. (It wasn't but "it's all in the report." This is the kind of thing that at best jeapordizes your CCW. Loud words and postures might not be perceived by others as necessitating gun exposure.

I am not sure of CCW laws/regulations, but believe concealed is supposed to stay concealed until necessity of weapon being drawn arises. I am not sure of the difference between flashing and presentation of the weapon and if/when there are differing 'trigger points' for this.

I do understand your situation and can tell you are trying to recount the story in good detail, not overstating or understating things. But, frankly, sometimes I think in these matters you have to either swallow hard, bite it and deescalate the situation - or otherwise let the opposing party escalate to a higher point where you can act (display, draw, etc.) without question.

50 Freak
05-01-2006, 11:45 AM
I didn't think about calling the cops, because at the moment, it was fight or flight for me. After everything had de-escalated, I thought of calling the police after, but like a dumb *** had not taken down their license and as they took off rather quickly.

But I agree, I either had to allow it to escalate it to the point they attacked me at which point I could have used my gun or de-escalate it myself and allow them to have their way. Pretty crappy choice either way. Of course it would have been the latter of the two.

bwiese
05-01-2006, 11:51 AM
But I agree, I either had to allow it to escalate it to the point they attacked me at which point I could have used my gun or de-escalate it myself and allow them to have their way. Pretty crappy choice either way. Of course it would have been the latter of the two.

Yes, just remember how this plays out in court/news if something had happened...

"Shooting: Arugment at Gas Station over Place in Line Leads to Shots Fired"

In unarmed brawls, from a legal standpoint, sometimes it's good to let the other guy throw the first punch.

The "getting your story in first" is important in other areas too. Let's say you have a tiny fender bender. The other guy says, "it's an old car, I can fix this myself, neither of us want insurance paperwork or accident on record, just write me a check for $800." Two months later you're in trouble for not filing an SR1, and he's suing you for other damages. You've already kinda confessed to doing something wrong - you wrote/signed a check. So then it becomes a I-said/he-Said battle, plus you're in trouble for not reporting an accident over the trigger amount ($500? $750?).

50 Shooter
05-01-2006, 11:57 AM
Well, you did move and allow them to fill up their tires and the same guys still says he wants to kick your butt. You have three guys pushing you to the point that you feel your life is threatened. I think the fact that you waited and even warned them to back off shows that you tried to de-esculate the problem.

If it would've went any further I'm sure you would've be arrested and made to look like the bad guy. I'm sure that in the end you'd probably be cleared but then you'd face any civil charges that they would be sure to bring.

Personally I think you did good. Had it been me and the *****y mood most people put me in, I would've probably shoot the a-hole in the head and drove away. This is yet another reason why I never carry a gun in public.;)

50 Freak
05-01-2006, 11:57 AM
Well my CCW instructor had told us to carry OC because it allowed us another avenue for defense other than the gun.

Which I did, when it was just one on one. But when it became 3 on 1 (not to mention the many other people in the other cars) I elevated it to defense by pistol.

Either way, "Shooting over space in line" does sound like a crappy headline. God I'm glad it ended how it did. I have to sit down and re-evaluate the situation and not allow myself to get in that kinda situation again.

socalguns
05-01-2006, 12:04 PM
I'd say the only thing you did wrong is you were SLOOOOOW.
The time you get at the air pump is enough if you're tires are street legal :) and you hustle. You can't take breaks.

If I were you, when the manners-a-hole's buddies approached,
I would've taken a few steps back and firmly said:
STAY BACK, DON'T THREATEN ME
And then did as you did. Sometimes a-holes are hard of hearing.

update: I should point out that I don't have a CCW or appropriate training

50 Freak
05-01-2006, 12:07 PM
I was not SLOW!!!! I moved as fast as I could, stupid machine only gave me a couple of minutes....:p :p

Rumpled
05-01-2006, 12:23 PM
So I move my car forward. I get out and am back to waiting.

I'm standing by my car and the big guy again comes over and says something about kicking my ***. I told him to learn some manners and at this point him and his two friends start advancing on me.



At this point, the big guy has really escalated things. I believe they call this one "making a terrorist threat"; it's a crime. You've backed off, gotten in your car and moved away from them. Then they come back at you, AFTER you've already proven you were willing to defend yourself with OC.

As described, I don't see much wrong. You coulda maybe just left when you moved your car; but who's to know what's going to happen.

I think the advice to be first to call could be important. You. of course, would be saying that three guys threatened to kick your tail and you were in fear for your life. If you had called; you'd probably be hassled by the man for awhile, and maybe even arrested for brandishing. Tough decision to make given the possible downside of that. Still possibly better than the other outcomes of being the one initially defending a charge.

All are better options than getting your rear kicked probably.

The headline would of course look bad.

Leaving initially might have been best, but that's really getting nit picky Monday morning quarterbacking.

Of course, I'm no lawyer, didn't stay at a Holiday INN or get a CCW.

Discussing/thinking of best responses/actions for the future are probably the best things to do now; for all of us.

bu-bye
05-01-2006, 12:29 PM
I think you are in the right. You moved out of the way and gave them what they wanted. They came after you even when you gave them everything and that proves that the only reason for them come up to you was to cause damage. Having a CCW also means that you have to make sure you an only you gets the gun. if they had jumped you the first thing they would have felt was the gun and they would have taken it and maybe used it on you. I would have done the same thing you did. Don't feel bad, feel proud :)

Stanze
05-01-2006, 12:38 PM
I don't have a CCW, but if I did I would of drew down on the threat, why display a pistol if it isn't ready for business? Sort out the legalites/headlines later when your arse isn't in the line.

Glad you're alright.

rod
05-01-2006, 12:52 PM
I believe that if you were to cause lead poisoning, the first question you'd have to answer is why didn't you just leave and come back later or go somewhere else. Deadly force should only be used as a LAST resort. If you had the chance to get in your car and leave but didn't, you could be made out to be the aggressor. I also understand how fast things escalate and the need to de-escalate them ASAP. Maybe you didn't feel like you could escape safely. All in all, I think what you did was perfectly acceptable. There might be some things you could do differently next time but then next time will be a totally different situation. Now that your situation is over, think about what could have been handled better and keep it in the back of your mind. Just my .02

grammaton76
05-01-2006, 12:58 PM
I believe I'd have called them in immediately for assault. The guy saying "let's go kick his ***" or whatever it is that he said, and then coming after you with his friends, is pretty clearly assault.

bdcc11
05-01-2006, 1:25 PM
I think I would have gone back inside and asked the attendent to turn the air back off and expained why. I would then go back to my car and get the license number on the way. When the other guy goes in to complain then let the attendent explain it to them. If the attendent won't help then I would not move my car -- I would stay locked inside may car and call the police and tell them I am being being assaulted by 3 guys bigger than myself and they want to hurt me. At that point I am physically safe unless they decide to try and break the window. If they break the window than I would not brandish a weapon, I would just shoot. The only way they can break a window is with a weapon of some kind and that means they would be armed and I would definitally be in fear of my life.

If the 3 guys decide to damage my car but not try to break a window I could possibly sue the gas station for not acting to protect it's customers but I doubt that would do much. There is insurance and a police report so they can go after the others and I would not need to even let anyone know I had a gun.

50 Freak
05-01-2006, 1:29 PM
If you had the chance to get in your car and leave but didn't, you could be made out to be the aggressor.

Excellent point. I forgot to mention in my story. That I could not leave. There was a big gas tanker filling up the station's gas tanks and it was blocking my path from going out, the only way was to back up, which I couldn't because of this guy's car. So I was boxed in and in retrospect.....The tanker was blocking view of the air fill-up station from the rest of the station which was about 20 feet away. If they had jumped me, no one would have seen. So maybe I did do the right thing.

I appreciate the comments guys. Making me think alot.

50 Freak
05-01-2006, 1:32 PM
I would stay locked inside may car and call the police and tell them I am being being assaulted by 3 guys bigger than myself and they want to hurt me. At that point I am physically safe unless they decide to try and break the window. If they break the window than I would not brandish a weapon, I would just shoot.

Good idea, but when that older lady came and asked me to move, I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt. Figured if I was in an emergency, I'd want someone to do the same. But when that guy actively came to me to threaten me, that in my book was passing the line.

markymark
05-01-2006, 1:48 PM
Good idea, but when that older lady came and asked me to move, I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt. Figured if I was in an emergency, I'd want someone to do the same. But when that guy actively came to me to threaten me, that in my book was passing the line.
I agree. IMO you did nothing wrong.

rod
05-01-2006, 1:48 PM
I could not leave. There was a big gas tanker filling up the station's gas tanks and it was blocking my path from going out, ....
.

With that said, I don't know what else you could have done. Those thugs should thank their lucky stars that they don't have extra holes in them. Glad you're Ok.

Rod

Stanze
05-01-2006, 1:52 PM
Some punk tried to give me the shakedown for my laundry money once at a laundrymat, he said some threatening words and got pigeon-chested to me. I whipped out my Kershaw pocket knife(THANKS non-shall issue CA!:rolleyes: ) and grabbed my son's aluminum softball bat out of my open hatchback with my other hand, and said, "Bring it.". To which he said more choice words as he walked away...

...I did my laundry somewhere else that day.

Would I of drawn down a pistol had I had one on my person(legally)?, you bet.

Then again, everything in life looks like shooting range/training course to me.:D

m1371
05-01-2006, 2:10 PM
I went to the gas station today to fill up. Big long line...waited patiently for a long time and finally filled up. Noticed the air in my tires were low so I went to the air station. Couple of cars in front of me, so I waited there and pulled my car up when it was my turn. At this station, you have to go ask the attendant to turn on the air, which I did.

The attendant turned on the air and I was happily pumping air when I noticed a couple of cars pull up behind me. The machine stopped and I had only filled up two tires. So I again went up and asked the attendant to turn on the air. When I got back the guy in the care behind me had pulled the air hose all the way to his car and was filling up his tires....Pretty freaking rude....But I didn't say anything and just stood there and waited.

The guy then realized that he couldn't reach the back part of his tires and told me to move my car up. I was flabbergasted. I said no, that I had been waiting and was in the process of filling my car when he cut in line. He said I got out of line and left my car which gave him the right to take the pump. I calmly explained that at this station, you have to ask the attendant to turn on the pump. Now, this guy is visibly agitated, and I'm not backing off (stupid mistake on my part). He's obviously bigger than me and starts coming towards me saying something like it's an emergency.....I'm thinking okay, it's an emergency....what???? you have a party to get to???? what????

I told him to back off and in my hand I had one of those Palm Protector OC sprays. I flicked off the safety and his eyes caught that. He backs off and then his friends start coming in. Two other guys....then this older lady (she was in another car I guess) comes over and asks if I can move my car. I said no, that her boys were rude. She says it's an emergency and asks again. I said if you had just asked me nicely in the first place I'd be glad to do it and didn't appreciate the intimidation from her boys.

So I move my car forward. I get out and am back to waiting.

I'm standing by my car and the big guy again comes over and says something about kicking my ***. I told him to learn some manners and at this point him and his two friends start advancing on me.

I drew my shirt back and put my hand on my Glock 20 and unholster it. One of the guys says what the hell you doing? you going to shoot us for some stupid air. I respond that the way I see it, 3 guys visibly agitated are getting pretty close to my physical space and I took it as a physical threat.

Now here's the part I found funny. Upon seeing, that I'm not backing down, one of the guys pulls out his cell and says he's calling the cops. I said fine, I have a permit to carry and I was protecting myself. Anyways, they get back into their cars and drive off.

I calm down a sec and get in my car and drive off to work.

I think had I not had the gun, I would have been definitely had the crap beat out of me.

In retrospect, I wonder if I should have just backed off in the first place and let them do whatever they wanted. I know it was over a stupid thing as filling your tire up with air and had something happened I would never forgive myself. But jeez, where do you draw the line?

Please give me your honest opinion on what you think I did right or did wrong. But keep it polite.


I'm not going to make a call on this one way or the other, because it "could" be viewed from both sides.

It's hard to say if the police would have viewed your actions as being justifiable or not. Same thing if lawyers got involved.

Learning experience, my man. Pick it over and "what if...?" the heck out of it. Play out different scenarios of what you could have done and file it away for future reference.

Bottom line, nobody got hurt, nobody went to jail.

Omega13device
05-01-2006, 2:14 PM
I think you answered your own question when you said that not backing off at the beginning was a "stupid mistake on my part". You had a choice as to whether to escalate the confrontation and you chose to do so, thus putting yourself in a situation where at best you would be lucky to keep your CCW.

You had nothing to gain and everything to lose by not backing down. Compare the following two downsides:

You back down - Downside is you lose some time, get irritated, hurts your pride a bit to have these jerks take advantage of you.

You don't back down - You could lose your CCW; you could get injured or killed; you could end up seriously injuring or killing one or more of them (not to mention bystanders) and spending an enormous amount of time and money in court defending yourself against criminal and civil litigation.

My sense of the reason for carrying (and others are welcome to disagree) is so that you can defend yourself in situations where you have absolutely no choice but to use deadly force. The gun is not supposed to be "Plan B" when you get yourself into a confrontation that's over your head. In this case, you put yourself squarely in the middle of it, but fortunately it sounds like it came out ok and will be nothing more than a good learning experience.

Parados13
05-01-2006, 2:21 PM
It sounds like to me you handled yourself pretty well, it is good to know that people on both sides managed to walk away.

The guys confronting you after you peacefully resolved the situation shows pretty clear intent on their part, IMO.

Do you think the guys would have backed off if you pulled out and readied the spray before you unholstered your firearm?

50 Freak
05-01-2006, 2:24 PM
Good point, in retrospect, if in the situation again, I would have just backed down initially and let the guy do what he wanted to do.

Which is in a way what I did when I moved my car. When he approached me the second time and said something about kicking my posterier, then that I took as a threat.

One thing about bullies, that often time when you back down from them they will take it as a sign of weakness and pursue you even more. I tend to think that was the case in this situation. As the guy had already "won". I backed down and moved my car even when I was obviously in the right. All he had to do was fill his tires and leave. No need to come to me again.

50 Freak
05-01-2006, 2:27 PM
Do you think the guys would have backed off if you pulled out and readied the spray before you unholstered your firearm?

I did initially. When the first guy was approaching me, I had snapped off the safety on my OC and was getting it ready. He saw that and walked away. When he came the second time, it was with his 2 friends. My little OC is made for a 3 second stream. I could not have used it on all three, hence moving the sitution to defense by pistol by my part.

NeoWeird
05-01-2006, 2:39 PM
stupid thing lost my post, so here are the key elements:

1. If things went down it would be a he said/she said between you, a possible felon at this point, and the other members of the car who would be saying "we started to pump up our tires when he came out yelling it was his turn, so we told him it was an emergency and we would be done in a second when he pulled out a gun and started shooting."

2. Even if you were proved innocent, you would be in a world of trouble until the trial and you would be paying out the *** and possibly lose your rights.

3. Legally I think you went over the line, then again this is the same place where a burglar can legally sue and win for being hurt while breaking the law.

4. Morally we guns owners, and CCW holders, have the ability and responsability to protect ourselves, our familes, and any other person that needs our help. You may have made them think twice before they do something like this again, which might have prevented a headline like "Elderly man beaten into a coma at local gas station" the next time the guys need gas/air.

5. While I believe you were legally in the wrong, I believe you did a morally good thing. You protected yourself, and the community, from an undesireable element in a more or less peaceful manner.

6. The only other thing I could give advice on is what I would have done, which I have no idea since I've never been in that situation, but I have had dreams about similar situations. I always turn my body in a 'ready' position and put my hand on the pistol. I am usually turned so they can't make out what I have, but it gives a good impression that you have something and are prepared to use it if things go any further. Think of how cops react when someone becomes hostile. Their feet go into the forward/rear positions for proper shooting, they get hunched down, and their hand goes back to their pistol. They may break it free from whatever is retaining it, but it's still in the holster. Porbably the only thing you could have done better in that situation (if we are assuming the pistol was necessary).

Just my two cents.

Fjold
05-01-2006, 2:54 PM
You were in a no win situation. You were out of view of any impartial witnesses and faced by four people on the other side who would have won in court because thay would have all said that you were the agressor and that you threatened them with a gun. You were lucky that they didn't call the police.

50 Freak
05-01-2006, 4:16 PM
You were in a no win situation. You were out of view of any impartial witnesses and faced by four people on the other side who would have won in court because thay would have all said that you were the agressor and that you threatened them with a gun. You were lucky that they didn't call the police.

Good point...Note to self...use all 15 rounds of 10mm. Leave no witnesses.:D :D

Dead men tell no tales....

Kidding aside, you're right. No witness to collaberate my side. Truck probably blocked all cameras as well. It would have been my word versus all of theirs. :( :(

Lesson learned so far. CCW holders are held to a higher standard than the average guy on the street. In the sense that even though we are lucky to be carrying a weapon, in order to avoid using it, we should be more "understanding" and learn to de-escalate situations instead of letting it get too far.

A regular person might get into a fight and chances are one guy walks off with black eye. A CCW holder gets into a fight and chances are someone is dead and the survivor goes to jail. Right or wrong really don't matter.

Richard
05-01-2006, 4:17 PM
This may have well been a lose-lose situation,glad to hear it ended when it did.
I have to tell you, I don't think it would have gone well for you if would have popped anyone of these clowns. It can certainly be argued that you over-reacted.

I think a worst case scenario would have landed you in court with the question, why didn't you walk away? You shot this guy over air?

Always remember ,"who will be judging you in a court of law?"....not your calgun pals.This is in know way a lecture,just remember you will be facing this situation alone.

I'm just asking.....when he asked/told you to move, could you have said "let me get my last 2 tires then I'll move out"? Were hairs standing up at that point?
Also I totally understand holding your ground,but is it really worth it when your out numbered?

Point is I think this has to be de-escalated from the start.....now if these clowns bring out bats,pipes,etc,then you have a green light to move ahead.
You've recieved kudos from members here on your response,I don't think they are right. It should never have gotten to that point, you just don't know about people these days,especially the youth.

I'm glad you posted this......this is an eye opener. Best advise...be ready for anything....run as many situations in your mind as possible. Have a plan,but most important stay in control,avoid escalation.

A CCW doesn't guarentee your safety ,only better's your odds.,and unfortunatley it also increases your odds to stand in front of a Judge.


Hey FWIW......just my opinion.


Here is my post about CCW's
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=255321#post255321

50 Freak
05-01-2006, 4:29 PM
I'm glad you posted this......this is an eye opener. Best advise...be ready for anything....run as many situations in your mind as possible. Have a plan,but most important stay in control,avoid escalation.

I thought I did by moving my car. But when the guy again approached me with his friends then that in my mind shows me that he's willing to take it further. Remember my car was blocked in, I wasn't going anywhere.

I'm glad it didn't turn bad and this whole thing is an eye opener. First time I've had to pull a gun in the almost 6 years of carrying.

Richard
05-01-2006, 4:47 PM
I thought I did by moving my car. But when the guy again approached me with his friends then that in my mind shows me that he's willing to take it further. Remember my car was blocked in, I wasn't going anywhere.

I'm glad it didn't turn bad and this whole thing is an eye opener. First time I've had to pull a gun in the almost 6 years of carrying.


Missed the blocked car......I'm sincerely glad it did not turn ugly.

kantstudien
05-01-2006, 5:27 PM
You did fine, except for not calling the cops to make a report. They probably called the cops and took your license number down, so expect a visit from the local police. Do you have their license plate numbers? You should always call first so that the burden is on the other party to prove their innocence.

50 Freak
05-01-2006, 5:33 PM
Do you have their license plate numbers? You should always call first so that the burden is on the other party to prove their innocence.

No, I kick myself for not getting it. Only excuse is at the time I was a "little" busy. Wonder if I will get a call from the local PD? Especially if it was two cities away from me.

If I do, I'm arranging a time for my atty to be present. No way I'm going to let this get out of hand.

ligamentum flavum
05-01-2006, 6:03 PM
hindsight is always 20/20.

one option would be to retreat to the area that the gas station attendant occupies. if there's a cash register, there's usually a surveillance camera.

if the 3 idiots follow you in and continue threats, yell at the attendant to call 911. if the idiots continue to show aggressive behavior, you're "cornered" and could justify the gun clearing the holster.

if anything were to go down, hopefully the camera would catch it and be more "objective" evidence.

considering your outcome was win-win since no one was injured/killed, i think you handled it fairly well. situational awareness and "escape routes" are important to keep in mind no matter where you are.

BigMac
05-01-2006, 7:46 PM
Get a bigger OC can for the car.

There would have been alot of satisfaction in hosing the three of them down..

PatrickM.
05-01-2006, 8:26 PM
Honestly, you did a real good job and i am proud that you were able to defend yourself and stop them from beating the crap out of you. The purpose of a CCW is to protect yourself from possible physical harm. remember, the State of CA and the instructor that signed off on your training trully believed that you would ONLY use your firearm when in extreme situations. i would say that this situation was VERY extreme, who knows, what if you did not defend yourself and they followed you to work or followed you home. just imagine if your wife or family was home and they decided to take out their anger out on them.

just imagine what COULD have happened if you did not properly proect yourself???

you did the best you could in the heat of them moment... i am glad the situation didn't get any worse....:)

YOU DID A GREAT JOB!!!!!!


Patrick M.

rollyourown
05-01-2006, 8:28 PM
Their lucky that it wasn't me standing in your position. My CCW guns don't clear leather without getting the trigger squeezed. There would have been bodies outlined with chalk. Lifes to short to have it any other way.

Rude human beings attack other peaceful human beings in this world simply because there are not enough of them getting shot on a daily basis. I know many will say you can't do that because you will be the one going to jail, charged with murder. etc, etc. Doesn't change the fact that people victimize other people around here simply because there are rarely painful consiquences for their actions. That needs to change.

dawson8r
05-01-2006, 8:33 PM
Just took the Utah CCW course this weekend. Lots of emphasis on de-escalation. Also, emphasis on what to do if you have to draw. First rule was CALL THE POLICE afterwards! As bweise state, first to call is generally perceived as the law-abiding citizen and the victim.

We were also taught was to get in the shooting stance but also to put both hands open out in front of your chest in a "I don't want any trouble" gesture. Maybe even shout the words out VERY LOUD. Witnesses remember things like that. If the threat continues to escalate you're in a pretty good position to then move to your firearm.

Glad for you it didn't end up any worse.

sac7000
05-01-2006, 10:21 PM
As the summer heat draws down around us and gas prices continue to escalate, driver vs driver incidents are sure to rise. Whether you carry concealed or not it's best to avoid situations before they get ugly. Whether you are right or wrong, you are in possesion of a firearm and therefore must do whatever it takes to remove your physical self from a possible confrontation. The last thing you want to do is draw or display your firearm.

As Richard stated, " stay in control and avoid escalation, A CCW doesn't guarentee your safety, it only better's your odds, and unfortunatley it also increases your odds to stand in front of a Judge. "

That's my 3 cents worth.... stay cool...it's going to get alot nastier out there....

subroutine
05-01-2006, 10:23 PM
so many different point of view on this one. unless you are a 'god-fearing' person, there is no such thing as right or wrong, just better or worse choices and how they relate to "the-law." (this is just my opinion)

it is never fun to be put in a situation where you feel that you are not being treated fairly, or with any dignitiy....the whole, do-unto-other-thing. i've been there myself more times than i would like to admit. and sure i've had fantasies of blowing someone head off w/ a gun out of anger and spite...but where does that get any of us???

this is the time where you just have to take a deep breath, swallow your pride, and realize that it really has nothing to do with you, per-se, so much as it does with the other persons. spiritually speaking, and psychologically speaking, "people", or "other-people" in general are "outer enviroment" to ourselves, to our souls/spirits/mental-state and are reallly beyond our control. we can't control them how ever much we try. if you look within hard enough you will realize that certain everyday confrontations are really just trivial when compared to your own mental-health and piece of mind.

take a deep breath - "what is this in the grand scheme of the universe?". absolutly nothing. it's only when you can't give up the internal struggle of "rightness and wrongness" that it really affects you and allows your chi/karma/center/ to be thrown off balance leading to a possible flare of temper, which is what you had. brandishing a weapon is an act of violence, or at least a strong showing of power - your apparent righness backed up by lethal force. i think it was not the "most-ideal" move. i'm not judging rightness or wrongness here........just better or worse.

if, however, you felt that you had diffused the situation and sat calmly in your car and the individuals came up to the car and began beating on your vehicle with an "actual" intent to cause damage or harm to you or your property, not just some kind of verbal tongue-lashing, then yes, i would have considered pulling your gun a "better, or more appropirate move" as well as callling 911 on the cell to inform the proper authorities.

it's not just about having a gun and having the right to use it, it's about understaning what makes you tick inside and how you can find your peacful center in seemingly "destressing" situations.........which might really not be all that distressing or a big deal in the grand sceme of things.

hope this helps some.

SUB

ldivinag
05-01-2006, 11:31 PM
read the nightmare this CCW holder had when you DONT REPORT FIRST!!!!!!:

Read this one first
http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/830601935/m/702106622/p/1
Then this one:
http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/320601935/m/359104392/p/1
Then:
http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/320601935/m/.../114105653#114105653
Then:
http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/230601935/m/.../649108304#649108304

oops, last 2 linkies are borked...

http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/320601935/m/114105653

http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/230601935/m/649108304#649108304

oh, i forgot. the final outcome. witih good news:
http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/320601935/m/632100474/p/1

for those with ADDHDADDHAADDS: ;)


Short version:

Some homeless ******* with a knife tried to mug me. I almost gripped my SIG and warned him off. He then called the cops on me. I have a concealed carry permit and was armed at the time. The cops put me in the pokey and took my carry permit (and my SIG 229). They got a search warrant, took my other guns and trashed my home. The District Attorney's office charged me with 6 misdeamnors and 1 felony - the felony being not have a concealed carry permit while carrying a gun on the streets (the search warrant even said I had a permit). I get released on bail. 20 murders happened on the weekend I was arrested and Mayor "Pay to Play" Street holds a press conference and states that the reason the murder rate is too high in Philly is because of all the carry permit holders that live here. The Philly Police Department sends me a letter stating they'll arrest me again if I don't turn in my carry permit (the one they took and I supposedly don't have...). I go to 3 preliminary hearings where the homeless ******* never shows up and none of the Judges will allow a dismissal. On the third hearing, the ADA drops the bogus felony charge. The misdeamnor trial is held and homeless *******, who looks to be in really bad shape, shows up. My lawyer suggests I think about taking the ARD option because the Judge on that day "has a real bug up his *** concerning guns." I tell him that I'd think about it and he tells the Judge that and him and the ADA agree to discuss it. I tell my Atty that I will NOT accept an ARD if that means I lose my carry permit and my guns. He writes the DA's office telling them that but they never respond. I go to my new trial date on Friday, and homeless ******* doesn't show up. My lawyer moves to dismiss and notes that this is my first offense. The ADA says that homeless ******* is probably downstairs (the Court had a long line outside of it early in the morning because everybody goes through a metal detector) and wants to remand the trial. My lawyers says homeless ******* only showed up once out of five tmes and that there shouldn't be yet another remand. The Judge says he will give the DA's office 15 minutes to produce the witness. The ADA says that I had agreed to an ADR, but my lawyer interrupts her and says that I did not, and that they hadn't responded to a letter that he had put in about the ADR. The ADA tries to say again that we took the ADR, but my lawyer cuts her short and says that she can prove it if she can produce a a signed ADR agreement from me. She shuts up. 45 minutes go by... 45 l-o-n-g minutes. My case comes up again and the Judge reads my file for about a minute and tell her that the DA's office had a real "interesting" way of handling my case, and the ADA starts to reply but he cuts her off and tells her that my case is dismissed.

accordingtoome
05-01-2006, 11:40 PM
shoot first ask questions later

50 Freak
05-02-2006, 12:11 AM
read the nightmare this CCW holder had when you DONT REPORT FIRST!!!!!!:

Read this one first
http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a.../702106622/p/1
Then this one:
http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a.../359104392/p/1
Then:
http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a...5653#114105653
Then:
http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a...8304#649108304
__________________

half the posts I couldn't get into. What happened to this guy?

ke6guj
05-02-2006, 12:14 AM
fixed links to the last 2:

http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/320601935/m/114105653#114105653
http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/230601935/m/649108304#649108304

edit: found this one http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/320601935/m/632100474/p/1 All charges dismissed.

odysseus
05-02-2006, 12:29 AM
A lot of excellent feedback I see here. I am currently in an area of Cali which is near impossible to get a CCW, unless I am a celebrity or I am "greasing" the local sherrif. Shame that that is for all us citizens.

Just echoing the points that:

1) As a ccw holder, it is very important you de-escalate a situation as safely as you can anytime you can. I think this is more of an art than anything else - you do the best you can. I think you tried, and you also mentioned where you found you were weak. It's not easy, but in the example of the thugs behind you: I say let a fool be a fool. I am not here on this earth to try to teach them anything they don't want to learn...

2) Call the police. You were assaulted with the threat given to you. Being menaced by 3 guys is also adding to that threat. However also count on them calling first. Sounds like this time it didn't cause you an issue. CYA!

I had this happen to a friend on an unarmed confrontation. Even though there were many witnesses (some strangers that saw him attacked) the punk actually ran away down the street and called the police (sounds like he had experience in this). LEO showed up at the business and citated my friend only, even with witnesses saying what they saw. All the LEO said he agreed but, "he called first". It's B.S., but then there are a lot of things LE do that defy basic common sense.

3) The pepper spray is always a good first line.


I only have a problem with this point:

In unarmed brawls, from a legal standpoint, sometimes it's good to let the other guy throw the first punch.

I have been around rough places and times and have witnessed attacks. I have been in a few myself as one defending. I know this was said in jest to the legal crap that unfortunetly stresses those who defend themselves, but you get hit - you have a great chance of being knocked badly. Then in this scenario you are toast with 3 on you. I have seen it, along with the kicking of a victim down on the ground. Now they have your firearm. 3 against one is pretty good odds of needing to defend yourself with extreme force. It's a dangerous gamble to try to find ways making it "look good".

taloft
05-02-2006, 12:46 AM
That being said, I would have approached it a little differently. No one stops for air in the middle of an emergency, that's just B.S. he's using to get you to move.

m2hbvic
05-02-2006, 3:17 AM
Well,.......if you lived in FL and had a CCW then you could've stood your ground and be legally within the new law that they just passed a few months ago. Then blast them!
Vic

rod
05-02-2006, 7:35 AM
Wow, this is the best thread I've read in awhile. Lots of good feedback. You really are held to a higher standard and held accountable for your actions.

+1 on calling the police as soon as practical. I was in a situation not too long ago that I could have handled differently. I was loading my daughter into her car seat in the parking lot when the truck parked next to me started backing out. The driver was looking right at me but I yelled at him anyway to stop. He continued to back out slowly and in doing so, his front fender made contact with my door I was standing in front of, pinning me and my daughter between the car and door. I lost it at that point as I was spitt'n mad. I sat my daughter down in her seat, closed the door, and smashed the side view mirror on the truck. That got their attention (all four of them) in the truck. Now, I'm not some scrawny little guy and can be pretty intimidating at times, so when I started banging my fists on their hood, yelling for them to get out of their truck so I could kick their ....you know, they got scared. My wife said I looked like some kind of psycho and swore she could see horns popping out of my head. They left the scene but not before I got their license plate number. I went home and called the police and explained the whole thing to them. The dispatcher I talked to said there really wasn't a crime unless I felt that the driver of the truck was trying to run me over on purpose. I didn't, and told the dispatcher that I thought that the driver was just an idiot that needed his you know what kicked. She made an incident report with my statement and filed it away in case anything else came up involving this incident. She was also laughing at what I did.

Sorry about the long story, and I'm trying not to jack this thread, but I just wanted to stress the importance of calling the police. You can get your side of the story heard without defending yourself. You can also alert the authorities to the fact that there's a car full of idiots out there and your story could be the first in a chain of events. What I mean is, maybe the police are already looking for these idiots from another incident or yours might be the first of many incidents and the police will have more evidence/wittness'.

I still feel you did the right thing 50. These situations escalate very quickly and you have no idea what the other person is thinking. With no escape route and outnumbered, sometimes the best way to de-escalate the situation is to draw that smoke wagon.

Rod

HillBilly
05-02-2006, 8:08 AM
It is a catch 22 for sure. A fight that escalated over an air pump is not as "clean" as other scenarios I can think of, but nonetheless, I think you did what you had to do to stop the threat. The biggest problem is that he had a car full of witnesses that will swear you started it. YOU threatened him first, YOU said you will Kill him, bla bla bla. Ask me how I know.

Maybe at least homeboy will learn a lesson:

"I almost got shot by a non-threatening level headed guy...WTF will happen if I pick on a nutjob with a gun?"

saki302
05-02-2006, 9:24 AM
The only mistake the guy in Philly made was not emptying his gun upon seeing the bum's knife. Within 21 feet, you are fully in the right if you defend yourself against someone holding a knife in a ready attack position.

The real sad thing in his case is he would probably have had less legal issues had he shot the guy.

-Dave

VeryCoolCat
05-02-2006, 12:58 PM
I would have handled the situation differently. If after using the air then coming back from telling the attendant to turn on the air to see someone else using it.
I would have felt it was my fault for taking to long initially....
Otherwise I would have said "dude, I was using that I just told him to turn on the air."
Then i would have left it at that. Saying well just hurry up, and standing there looking annoyed.

If I had a ccw, I would not pull it to defend myself in that way.

I would have waited until the first swing then just shooting him in self defense. I wouldn't take it out to prevent a crime, but to take it out to stop a crime. Don't pull out a weapon without intent to use it. That way you have the argument "He attacked me and I shot him, If i had shot the man first I wouldn't have been hit by him."

If all three guys were coming around torward me. I would have backed off causing a scene that way catching the attention of all the other patrons, if they start beating on my car then that would attract even more attention. Then I would have pulled a weapon. Ordered them on the ground, and called the cops.

five.five-six
05-03-2006, 1:08 AM
well you did not unholster it of brandish it. I think you are ok. I was in a simaler situation iwas out in my garage cleaning some .223 autoloaders whan some drunk nutjob with a base ball bat started walking around my neiborhood beating things and yelling. I had to walk about 100 feet to get to my condo to protect my family. what do you do? I loaded my car, and carried it real low back in my house. I was not going to risk gettng my head bashed in trying toprotect my family. thank god I did not have to use it

DParker
05-03-2006, 10:08 AM
The best advice is to assume "the stance" with palm on grip. With an IWB setup and your strong side turned away from the perp, they will not be able to see your weapon, but it will be obvious that you have one. Give loud verbal commands and never mention a gun.

You should be able to draw and present quickly if the scene continues to escalate, but if that calms it down, the perp would not be able to describe your weapon...greatly helping you avoid a brandishing charge.

If they try to say you drew on them, yet can't describe the type, size, finish, etc., of the gun, then advantage to you.

Pesonally, I would never lift my shirt or show my weapon in any way for just this reason. My brother was once a plain clothes security agent (armed) and had charges filed against him because he foolishly took off his jacket (it was hot) after arresting a suspect while awaiting jail transport....in a private office. Since the suspect could describe his weapon in detail (OWB holster) he made all sorts of claims against him saying he was threatened, gun stuck in his face, etc. My brother eventually prevailed mostly because the suspect was an idiot with a long arrest record...but it was a powerful lesson that "concealed means concealed".

Don't show it unless you are prepared to use it.

kalibear
05-03-2006, 10:34 AM
Did they have surveillance cameras at that gas station?

shaftershooter
05-03-2006, 10:52 AM
I believe you did the right thing you did back off and move your car. So when the man approched you and made a threat he was guillt of PC 422 (Criminal/Terrorist Threats). I am not a lawyer just a criminal Justice student. I beleved the man who threaned fullfilled all the elements of the crime.

"California Penal Code 422. Any person who willfully threatens to commit a crime which
will result in death or great bodily injury to another person, with
the specific intent that the statement, made verbally, in writing, or
by means of an electronic communication device, is to be taken as a
threat, even if there is no intent of actually carrying it out,
which, on its face and under the circumstances in which it is made,
is so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate, and specific as to
convey to the person threatened, a gravity of purpose and an
immediate prospect of execution of the threat, and thereby causes
that person reasonably to be in sustained fear for his or her own
safety or for his or her immediate family's safety, shall be punished
by imprisonment in the county jail not to exceed one year, or by
imprisonment in the state prison."

tpliquid1
05-03-2006, 11:08 AM
good stuff.

xj4play
05-03-2006, 11:45 AM
I cant understand why people say he took too long. The little gas station pump will take about 6 min a tire to fill from 15-30psi on my jeep while it will only take about 1:30 min to fill the low profile tires on my suburban. If your behind me in a big rush you might as well go somewhere else.

On a side note i ran into one of these big heads monday night at dinner. Big dummy as i call him decided to move his chai r to the side of his tabel effectively blocking me from leaving my table. About 25 min into dinner i need to get up. I as several times if he could move in alittle so i can get by. He finally complies. Now coming back its the same situation , he pretends he doesnt hear me. So i tapped him on the should once again ignores me. Being not that big of a guy i squeeze by him and take my seat. Dummy then freaks out threatning me. He has one of his friends sitting inbetween the area between us. this guy is way bigger and has lots of friends there. The threats keep pouring in. I didnt want to sit there behind my table incase he did do soemthing. I told him if he wants to do somethign about it let me out from behind my table. His friend obously sees what might happen and shuts dummy up. Within about 3 mins they take off. During the whole confrontation i had my hand next to my pocket which i usually keep a small folder in.

linuxgunner
05-03-2006, 12:12 PM
When you carry a gun, you have to back down in situations like that. Carrying a gun makes you into a wuss. Seriously. You can't stick up for yourself or have confrontations or get into arguments if you're packing. If you just had OC maybe that would be different, but if you ever ever have to use a gun, every step of the interaction will be judged harshly. "Well, it was just over some air. Why didn't you just move your car? You could see there were angry people in the other car."

-------------------
Reform CCW in California: http://CaliforniaCCW.org

DRM6000
05-03-2006, 1:05 PM
i'm not gonna comment on any of the legalities or anything like that, but i commend you for standing your ground. at the very least, there are three guys out there that might think twice about bullying others.

Satex
05-03-2006, 2:07 PM
When I was 15, my very first shooting instructor told me: “ NEVER EVER pull a gun on someone unless you intent to shoot to kill” This was years ago, and I still think about the fact that she was correct.

I do commend you for standing up to the “bad guy”, and deep inside I understand your motivation. We are all tiered of the local bully. BUT, I can also see this situation ending up much different with you being walked away in handcuffs.

I do not want to judge, but you could have walked away from that area, and into the gas store and asked the cashier to call 911. I am happy it turned out ok and no one was hurt. I am also happy you didn’t pull your handgun out and made a bad situation even worst.

I think the most important thing for you is to determine what your “lessons learned” from this situation are and how (and if) next time you would do anything differently. I would love to hear your thoughts about it.

slo5oh
05-03-2006, 2:44 PM
I dunno. If I'm looking at 3 stupid kids (late teens?) that are all bigger than I am surrounding me, obviously knowing how to "gang up" on 1 person I'd probably do the same. Worst part I see is that their "mother" was there watching the whole thing? what sort of super trash do you have to be to pick a fight with someone when your mother is watching? Just one more reason (I think) to let them know you're armed and not going to allow them to practice their future jail gang bang tactics on you.
The option of walking into the store and asking the clerk to call 911, probably would have resulted in the cashier(s) saying they don't want to get involved. So you get stuck calling 911 yourself and sitting on hold for 10, 15, 20 minutes.... I watched a drug deal go down once and tried to be a "good citizen" and report it. I sat on hold for so long that the one car drove off and the guy walking was out of viewing distance before I hung up.

That said, I think you should have not been so nice in the begining and as soon as you came back and noticed they took your air hose said something (politely?) like "I was using that". But I really don't think there was any other way out of this for you beside skipping the air in your tires all together. Some people have nothing to lose and jail isn't a real threat to them. I got myself in an ugly situation with 3 black boys from oakland. Since I was unarmed I realized very quick that the only way out of it for me without being beat, stabbed or maybe shot, was to draw my manhood inside out and against how I felt apologize. I still wonder how bad that could have turned had I not. While I do feel we should always stand up for what's right, I'm not going to put my life on the line over the use of my middle finger upsetting some asshats because their driver almost side swiped me. :D

saki302
05-03-2006, 3:31 PM
I keep an air taser in my nice car just because of the less-lethal factor (and it's probably the only thing you can legally have in L.A.)- YELL a warning, then shoot first, ask questions later :D

The larger first-sized OC cans are good too- the SABRE brand (black can OC/CS) Turner's sells is good stuff. I had an accidental experience with one :(

-Dave

Glasshat
05-03-2006, 4:47 PM
You played it pretty cool and prevented an *****-whopping. What's wrong with that? They told you they were going to harm you, they had the ability to harm you and they were agitated and moving towards you intending to harm you. Did you have any other way to stop them from harming you? Is it too late to call the police?

trinity9
05-03-2006, 7:38 PM
In unarmed brawls, from a legal standpoint, sometimes it's good to let the other guy throw the first punch.



Bill, I'm glad that you qualified the statement. This is the kind of stuff that is no longer rational, even from the legal standpoint of Lawyers and Judges.

In my neighborhood, in unarmed brawls, if you let the other guy throw the first punch then you are most probably doomed-- possibly even deceased. If you did happen to recover from the first swing and win the fight, you would spend the remainder of your days watching your back.

The rules of engagement have changed; (though it was never necessary or even prudent to let the other guy swing first.)

trinity9

Mr. Ed
05-03-2006, 9:09 PM
Someone posted that in a brawl, never throw the first strike. In my opinion, no one should have to take a hit. We have a right to protect ourselves. Also, remember Reginald Denny??? Three punks ganged up on him and nearly killed him. You did the right thing by drawing down. You prevented yourself from being a statisitic.

kantstudien
05-04-2006, 12:52 AM
The larger first-sized OC cans are good too- the SABRE brand (black can OC/CS) Turner's sells is good stuff. I had an accidental experience with one :(

-Dave

You are aware that you would be better off carrying a handgun? Carrying more than 2 ounces of OC = felony!

jdberger
05-04-2006, 1:46 AM
You are aware that you would be better off carrying a handgun? Carrying more than 2 ounces of OC = felony!I gotta tell you, I love this state....:o

KenpoProfessor
05-04-2006, 6:08 AM
After reading all the posts here I think a lot of people are missing why an armed society is a polite society for incidents exactly like this. Most of you are being all PC and sounding like Democrats. The people that assaulted .50 are bad people, and don't think they wouldn't hesitate to do the same thing to you if given the oppurtunity, and you might be unarmed because of the stupid laws of this state.

I'm a trained fighter, and would've engaged all three of those A-holes for my own pleasure after seeing how they acted. Some people need a spanking, verbal, physical, or financial, and if people don't stand up for what is right, we're no different than those politicians who sympathize with the ILLEGALS in this country. Get a clue people, bad behavior like this will eventually get them the spanking they deserve because they will break the law, and hopefully got to jail after having their butts kicked up so high they call it a hat, but how many people will they have assaulted until that point? Stand up for what is right, make a statement about where you draw the line.

P.S. If you live in an area of the PRK that you can't get a CCW, I would suggest you get some training in martial arts and improvised weapons. If not, you're going to be someone's victim somewhere over incidents such as this.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

odysseus
05-04-2006, 9:57 AM
Carrying more than 2 ounces of OC = felony!

Can someone validate that? A felony? This is the first I have heard of this. Doesn't make sense...

odysseus
05-04-2006, 10:03 AM
After reading all the posts here I think a lot of people are missing why an armed society is a polite society for incidents exactly like this. Most of you are being all PC and sounding like Democrats.

Clyde - if it were only that simple. People here are not sounding like "democrats". I don't see anyone sympathizing with the BGs here. What this is a cautious review of person who posted his experience with his CCW in an incident.

I agree with your feelings regarding the BGs, but it won't be helpful if the incident escalated and he was being reviewed by a court of his "peers". You can go on the stand and say what you wrote here, telling all the jury and the DA they are being too "PC". Here in Cali, we know how a jury of "peers" might be in some areas. Bottomline, yeah you might be in the right morally, but that won't prevent the courts and civil action from victimizing you even if it was self defense.