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ChronoCube
08-11-2010, 9:47 AM
Are the following two ways of configuring an AK for storage legal? Note that they both render it non-operational, which is fine since it is being stored not used.

The pistol grip is attached. There is no mag attached, nor is there a fin grip or bullet button. This way the compliance item can be used on another rifle.


Bolt, bolt carrier, and piston removed.
Action intact, but with a cable lock through the receiver (through the ejection port and mag well). The bolt cannot close, and a mag cannot be inserted.

mtptwo
08-11-2010, 10:57 AM
I would think that you would be hard pressed in court to state that removing the bolt from a gun with a pistol grip would render it non-op. Be safe, either fix a mag, or remove the pistol grip.

CSACANNONEER
08-11-2010, 10:58 AM
Remove the PG. It only takes a minute!

ChronoCube
08-11-2010, 11:29 AM
I would think that you would be hard pressed in court to state that removing the bolt from a gun with a pistol grip would render it non-op. Be safe, either fix a mag, or remove the pistol grip.

Not just bolt but also bolt carrier and piston.

How about the cable lock idea?

iareConfusE
08-11-2010, 11:32 AM
Not just bolt but also bolt carrier and piston.

How about the cable lock idea?

Like everyone else said, it would be a lot easier for you to just remove the PG. It literally only takes about 15 seconds to remove to be safe and save yourself a possible long term hassle.

CSACANNONEER
08-11-2010, 11:34 AM
Not just bolt but also bolt carrier and piston.

How about the cable lock idea?

So, are you willing to argue that your disassembled AW (yes it would still be configured as an AW with the PG and no mag lock) is not an AW because you took it apart and locked it? I would think that after spending 100K to defend yourself, you'll get to spend a few years on vacation too. Why are you trying to put yourself in prision instead of taking a screwdriver and a minute to take your PG off? Oh, do you have a FPG or FH on it too? If so, I'd just keep a mag lock on it.

curtisfong
08-11-2010, 11:44 AM
Not just bolt but also bolt carrier and piston.

How about the cable lock idea?

You have your answer. Remove the PG. Why bother asking if you aren't going to listen to the answers?

ChronoCube
08-11-2010, 11:46 AM
Remove the PG. It only takes a minute!

FYI The pistol grip is a tapco SAW grip and the way it's mounted (by previous owner) used on it requires more than a screwdriver. The situation is not as simple as disassembling a WASR, otherwise I wouldn't bother asking. I didn't want to go into the details for privacy reasons.

Wherryj
08-11-2010, 12:08 PM
FYI The pistol grip is a tapco SAW grip and the way it's mounted (by previous owner) used on it requires more than a screwdriver. The situation is not as simple as disassembling a WASR, otherwise I wouldn't bother asking. I didn't want to go into the details for privacy reasons.

How about leaving the magazine on the firearm and affixing it with a bullet button, etc.?

I've read somewhere that you can purchase such items for your second firearm if you are currently sharing these parts. Purchasing a second set sounds less expensive than being charged with a felony.

zhyla
08-11-2010, 1:08 PM
Just to point out the obvious, if it's one of the few AK types that are "on-list" then it doesn't matter how many parts you remove, you've still got an AW receiver.

SJgunguy24
08-11-2010, 1:12 PM
Are the following two ways of configuring an AK for storage legal? Note that they both render it non-operational, which is fine since it is being stored not used.

The pistol grip is attached. There is no mag attached, nor is there a fin grip or bullet button. This way the compliance item can be used on another rifle.


Bolt, bolt carrier, and piston removed.
Action intact, but with a cable lock through the receiver (through the ejection port and mag well). The bolt cannot close, and a mag cannot be inserted.


The cable lock through the action is good enough. If you wish to remove the PG you can but that's not needed.

ChronoCube
08-11-2010, 1:46 PM
I just went out and bought what I needed to actually remove the pistol grip ... a socket wrench. It was attached using a hex bolt, but the bolt head was inside the grip, not at the bottom.

Flopper
08-11-2010, 4:40 PM
I think the OP has a legitimate question, along the lines of the recent thread which basically said, "If I (temporarily) disable this handgun, can it legally be concealed?"

Another analog is when you remove a centerfire upper from an AR15 receiver, it cannot be an AW.

It's thinking outside the box like this that got us EBR's by way of OLL's and bullet buttons, and it should NOT be discouraged.

dantodd
08-11-2010, 5:49 PM
No. The law states any semi-auto rifle with evil features (in this case a PG) and a detachable magazine is an AW. There is no exemption for one that is locked or inoperable. There may be some argument for it not being a semi-auto if you remove the bolt but you'd better find some rimfire ammo in your chamber caliber to make that claim.

Even just removing the PG will not take it out of AW status if you have other evil features on the firearm.

Use the AW flowchart linked at the top of this page. If your gun fails the flowchart it is very likely that you will be found in violation if caught.

SJgunguy24
08-12-2010, 12:31 AM
No. The law states any semi-auto rifle with evil features (in this case a PG) and a detachable magazine is an AW. There is no exemption for one that is locked or inoperable. There may be some argument for it not being a semi-auto if you remove the bolt but you'd better find some rimfire ammo in your chamber caliber to make that claim.

Even just removing the PG will not take it out of AW status if you have other evil features on the firearm.

Use the AW flowchart linked at the top of this page. If your gun fails the flowchart it is very likely that you will be found in violation if caught.

In bold. If a rifle with features has been made inoperable, how in the world could that be considered a semi-auto center fire rifle that accepts a detachable magazine? You cannot get a mag into the gun, the action cannot be fired, that gun will not work.

motorhead
08-12-2010, 11:35 AM
many grey areas since it is an assembled reciever. the question is, as always, do you want to be the test case? there is no constructive posession under ca aw law. MY call would be either a removable mag lock or p/g removal. YMMV.

dantodd
08-12-2010, 12:04 PM
In bold. If a rifle with features has been made inoperable, how in the world could that be considered a semi-auto center fire rifle that accepts a detachable magazine? You cannot get a mag into the gun, the action cannot be fired, that gun will not work.

There is no such exemption. The exemption is for a magazine which is not detachable without a tool not for a non-attachable magazine. It may seem like a distinction without a difference to YOU but it is VERY important. In other words making it impossible to attach a magazine does not make a "fixed magazine."

nick
08-12-2010, 12:08 PM
17 posts, and no one has mentioned the most essential component of storing a combloc firearms - cosmoline? :)

stix213
08-12-2010, 12:52 PM
Remove the PG. It only takes a minute!

+1

PG is only one freaking screw, not sure why you want to try to avoid that. Go featureless before you configure the rifle so it can accept a detachable mag.

Wherryj
08-12-2010, 1:03 PM
There is no such exemption. The exemption is for a magazine which is not detachable without a tool not for a non-attachable magazine. It may seem like a distinction without a difference to YOU but it is VERY important. In other words making it impossible to attach a magazine does not make a "fixed magazine."

I suspect that if you were caught with the weapon in your possession, the theory might be how easily reversible the changes might be?

Cable lock through my Mossberg 590A can be removed within seconds. Is the weapon TRULY inoperable or just temporarily inoperable?

Pavel
08-12-2010, 3:49 PM
The guy clearly does not want to remove the pistol grip for his own reasons, and is posing a simple question that doesn't have a simple answer. There are many grey areas that involve AW config. in Kalifornia, such as Kasler-listed recievers being AW by themselves, or not, because the law states "centerfire rifle" and a receiver is not a centerfire rifle by ATF definition. On an AR, you can just pull the upper off of the lower and gtg. On an AK not so, and I would say it would still be considered a centerfire rifle as the gun is basically field stripped but still a complete rifle. Check with ATF on definitions of a centerfire rifle, and even if you are technically in the clear you still have the 58 DA's and blah blah blah...

dantodd
08-12-2010, 4:54 PM
I suspect that if you were caught with the weapon in your possession, the theory might be how easily reversible the changes might be?

Cable lock through my Mossberg 590A can be removed within seconds. Is the weapon TRULY inoperable or just temporarily inoperable?

It doesn't matter how "temporary" the change is. Once you make a firearm it is forever a firearm unless it is demilled. That is an irreversible process. Until that happens it cannot have evil features + detachable magazine in California or it will violate the AWB. If it is still chambered for a centerfire round and it is still a rifle you will be at grave risk of being arrested. Unless you can show something in case law or PC that exempts firearms temporarily rendered inoperable from the AWB there is no easy way around it.

Cali-Shooter
08-12-2010, 5:00 PM
Keep your AK with a muzzle brake, standard ak-47 stock, and default pistol grip, so you can attach a fin grip with no hassles...

ChronoCube
08-12-2010, 5:10 PM
There is no such exemption. The exemption is for a magazine whichis not detachable without a tool not for a non-attachable magazine. It may seem like a distinction without a difference to YOU but it is VERY important. In other words making it impossible to attach a magazine does not make a "fixed magazine."

Do you have a quote from the AW law itself? I'm not sure what exemption you're talking about. The AW law defines 'assault weapon' as:
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon"
shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity
to accept any ammunition feeding device that can be removed
readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the
firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet
or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. [A]nd any one of
the following:


It sounds to me that all you have to do to put your firearm outside of the AW definition is to prevent it from accepting a mag in the first place.

ChronoCube
08-12-2010, 5:12 PM
+1

PG is only one freaking screw, not sure why you want to try to avoid that. Go featureless before you configure the rifle so it can accept a detachable mag.

Geez, read all the above posts. The screw required a socket wrench to remove. It's not as easy as the traditional PG. And I had to go buy the wrench to remove it. It has been removed.

dantodd
08-12-2010, 6:24 PM
Do you have a quote from the AW law itself? I'm not sure what exemption you're talking about. The AW law defines 'assault weapon' as:


It sounds to me that all you have to do to put your firearm outside of the AW definition is to prevent it from accepting a mag in the first place.

A cable lock doesn't make the firearm incapable of accepting a magazine. If that were the case then just putting it in your safe would do the same because you would not be able to insert a magazine then either. (unless you are Penn & Teller)

Quiet
08-13-2010, 12:14 AM
Store it in a CA compliant configuration.

There was a case awhile back where someone was convicted for having a "broken" unregistered assault weapon (FAL type rifle with evil features stored with bolt removed).

Colt-45
08-13-2010, 12:25 AM
Keep your AK with a muzzle brake, standard ak-47 stock, and default pistol grip, so you can attach a fin grip with no hassles...

Whats this mean? Are you trying to say that if an AK has a threaded barrel, by simply putting on a muzzle brake, one can now have a featureless build? I've been wondering about this lately since a muzzle brake can be easily removed without the need of any tools.

dantodd
08-13-2010, 12:26 AM
Whats this mean? Are you trying to say that if an AK has a threaded barrel, by simply putting on a muzzle brake one can now have a featureless build? I've been wondering about this.

Threaded barrels are not a "feature" for rifles, only handguns.

Colt-45
08-13-2010, 1:03 AM
Ok cool thanks. I rest my case.

dantodd
08-13-2010, 1:44 AM
Ok cool thanks. I rest my case.

I think that what Cali-Shooter meant was to install a brake rather than the more common flash-hider as the hider is an "evil feature."

motorhead
08-13-2010, 9:32 AM
one other clarification, an ak is ALWAYS a semi centerfire rifle. bbl. removal requires gunsmithing. it can't be easily converted to .22 like an ar.
i can see the op's dilemma. he just doesn't want to drop another $50 on another MMG or $35 for a maglock. i was thinking something similar for a new, featureless build. i was going to remove my p/g.