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O8SERVER
08-10-2010, 8:34 PM
In California, if you were to awaken in the middle of the night and observe someone trying to steal your parked car, would you be legally justified by going outside with a loaded firearm to confront them?

Or would this be considered an illegal act of brandishing a weapon?

Vox
08-10-2010, 8:47 PM
CPC section 417(a) (2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
punishable as follows:
(A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three
months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(B) In all cases other than that set forth in subparagraph (A), a
misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less
than three months.

Brandishing. theft of property isn't a threat to life.

Sudaev
08-10-2010, 8:48 PM
I do not believe it is illegal to do so.

If I recall correctly, there is a CA penal code section which covers the legal use of a firearm while stopping a crime (I cannot remember if only restricted to felonies).

thevic
08-10-2010, 8:50 PM
edward norton did it with a curb stomp and only did a few years :)

the_natterjack
08-10-2010, 8:52 PM
In California, if you were to awaken in the middle of the night and observe someone trying to steal your parked car, would you be legally justified by going outside with a loaded firearm to confront them?

Or would this be considered an illegal act of brandishing a weapon?

I dunno if it would be legal or not.

I look at it this way.

Would I rather be inside my locked house, with my shotgun, calling the police and letting them know that someone is stealing my car which is insured in case it's stolen or be outside, in the dark, with an unknown number of criminals, who may be armed, and may be willing to kill me over a used car?

Stay inside, we need you alive.

Brian

a1c
08-10-2010, 8:54 PM
No, you're not, so don't.

Call 911.

Oh, and before it happens, LoJack your car.

EDIT: I re-read your thread title and I realized I typed too fast. "Drawing your weapon"? Sure you can. But be weary of the consequences - better not shoot.

Ding126
08-10-2010, 8:56 PM
I dunno if it would be legal or not.

I look at it this way.

Would I rather be inside my locked house, with my shotgun, calling the police and letting them know that someone is stealing my car which is insured in case it's stolen or be outside, in the dark, with an unknown number of criminals, who may be armed, and may be willing to kill me over a used car?

Stay inside, we need you alive.

Brian

+1...Thats would be the smartest move

Vox
08-10-2010, 9:00 PM
I've read all of §417 and found nothing that indicates anything other than self-defense. I believe you're allowed to use a firearm to stop or detain someone who has committed a violent felony in your presence and is attempting to flee.

QuarterBoreGunner
08-10-2010, 9:20 PM
They drill this into you in every single Cali CCW course I've ever attended; you MUST be in fear of imminent death or great physical harm before any (one more time) ANY type of lethal force is deployed, displayed, pulled or whatever. Anything else is brandishing and you run the risk of the dreaded LEO response to "MAN WITH A GUN" call.

Property can be replaced.

CCWFacts
08-10-2010, 9:20 PM
In California, if you were to awaken in the middle of the night and observe someone trying to steal your parked car, would you be legally justified by going outside with a loaded firearm to confront them?

Or would this be considered an illegal act of brandishing a weapon?

IANAL but I think it could be worse than brandishing. It could be assault.

Whatever the legal situation, it is an ill-advised action to take. Get theft insurance for your car. The legal bills you would get into for confronting a car thief will far exceed the value of any car that would be parked outside.

If it's only property, let it go, seems to be the general rule, because if it's worth enough to risk the legal bills, then it's worth enough to be insured. Of course if it's inside your house that's different, because then it's not just a threat to property, it's a threat to life.

GunNutz
08-10-2010, 9:24 PM
What a fked up place we live in. The thieves have more "rights" than we do.

taladeganite
08-10-2010, 9:26 PM
How about using a taser to stop a perp?

gabe123
08-10-2010, 9:27 PM
If I have enough time to pull a gun, I have enough time to hit panic button on my car key remote control... They flee faster than seeing a gun. And I have time to write down their plate too ...

pullnshoot25
08-10-2010, 9:27 PM
But one can citizen's arrest someone for car theft though, as that is at least a felony, right?

To effect an arrest, you can use force any force necessary, including a loaded firearm.

Not always advisable, but it can be done. YMMV, IANAL, SLFD.

fairfaxjim
08-10-2010, 9:30 PM
I wanted a new car anyway - I sure don't want my old one back full of bullet holes! :D

diginit
08-10-2010, 9:30 PM
This is another case where the law protects the criminal. Although your way to work (means of survival) is in jepardy and LE is 15 miniutes away. Do you think the thief would flee if you Yelled or draw a weapon against you? In the latter situation, You would be justified. Otherwise, No.
Myself. I would yell with my hand on the 45 behind my back in the doorway, As I am still inside my house, in case they were armed. Any wrong move on their part........ Hope it never happens. You'll have to weigh the risk yourself and be careful what you say in the aftermath...Like "I will not answer any questions without my lawer present"

QuarterBoreGunner
08-10-2010, 9:33 PM
What a fked up place we live in. The thieves have more "rights" than we do.

Not necessarily; the law just says that a life is more important than property.

That being said, I freaking *HATE* thieves. Having had my house burglarized before I can tell you it would have been a very... trying... situation if I had confronted the burglars in the act while armed. But the law is the law. If you don't like it, work to change it.

I do believe Texas allows you to use deadly force to protect property. Good? Bad? I don't know.

But I'd hate to have killed someone over them trying to steal my bicycle.

libertyordeath
08-10-2010, 9:34 PM
That's what I was thinking in case of citizens arrest. On other Hand I agree with call leo's for this one you don't know how many perps there is and if also armed.

Car not worth killing or getting killed for even if legal to me.

Cali-Shooter
08-10-2010, 9:34 PM
CPC section 417(a) (2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
punishable as follows:
(A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three
months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(B) In all cases other than that set forth in subparagraph (A), a
misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less
than three months.

But what if you come out and confront the car thief with a baseball bat?
Not with the express intent of bashing his face in, but as a self defense weapon in case he doesn't turn tail. I would confront a car thief by holding a baseball bat, yelling at him to get away from my car, and call the cops on him. Should be good to go, right?

Sudaev
08-10-2010, 9:36 PM
To effect an arrest, you can use force any force necessary, including a loaded firearm.

Not always advisable, but it can be done. YMMV, IANAL, SLFD.

Correct.

And I am also aware of deadly force being used against car burglars in CA who threatened the armed citizen who responded, and no charges were filed.

thayne
08-10-2010, 9:45 PM
I thought it was legal to use a firearm to stop a felony. Maybe not legal to shoot them, but im pretty sure its legal to confront them armed

cdtx2001
08-10-2010, 9:45 PM
Call the cops and get ready to file a claim with your insurance.

turbogg
08-10-2010, 9:46 PM
But one can citizen's arrest someone for car theft though, as that is at least a felony, right?

To effect an arrest, you can use force any force necessary, including a loaded firearm.

I would be very careful with this. I can just see the LEO's pull up and seeing you with your gun pointing at other people, they might get a little "nervous" about their safety. My best advice at that point would be to do exactly what the LEO's command, and don't make any sudden movements.

Glock22Fan
08-10-2010, 9:47 PM
Forget what is legal and what isn't. Remember that it could well be that the car thief has an armed accomplice on the lookout hiding in the shadows.

Stay safely indoors, dial 911 and trip the car's security alarms. The car isn't worth your life.

diginit
08-10-2010, 9:48 PM
CPC section 417(a) (2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
punishable as follows:
(A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three
months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(B) In all cases other than that set forth in subparagraph (A), a
misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less
than three months.

But what if you come out and confront the car thief with a baseball bat?
Not with the express intent of bashing his face in, but as a self defense weapon in case he doesn't turn tail. I would confront a car thief by holding a baseball bat, yelling at him to get away from my car, and call the cops on him. Should be good to go, right?

What good is a baseball bat if the thieves are armed with a gun?
Also. Keep in mind that during a citizens arrest, You have to state your name and say that you are initiating a citizens arrest. If you don't have a creditable witness while doing this, It's your word against theirs. You think the thief won't say you just pointed a gun at him without announcing the arrest? Witnesses are hard to find in the middle of the night and a citizens arrest means nothing without someone else to say that "This is what really happened".

Monticore
08-10-2010, 9:48 PM
But what if you come out and confront the car thief with a baseball bat?
Not with the express intent of bashing his face in, but as a self defense weapon in case he doesn't turn tail. I would confront a car thief by holding a baseball bat, yelling at him to get away from my car, and call the cops on him. Should be good to go, right?

How about Unloaded Open Carry, thigh holster let's say, with the (in my case) softball bat in my hands?
Or my 4 cell Maglite for that matter.

Still inadvisable, I know, but for sake of argument.
Is it still considered brandishing due to the act that I am engaging in?

Sudaev
08-10-2010, 9:50 PM
I thought it was legal to use a firearm to stop a felony. Maybe not legal to shoot them, but im pretty sure its legal to confront them armed

Right; I was commenting on the fact that people who were forced to shoot car thieves/burglars did not have charges filed against them for brandishing. PC 417 wouldn't apply to that type of scenario, as it's obviously in good faith.

QuarterBoreGunner
08-10-2010, 9:51 PM
Forget what is legal and what isn't. Remember that it could well be that the car thief has an armed accomplice on the lookout hiding in the shadows.

Stay safely indoors, dial 911 and trip the car's security alarms. The car isn't worth your life.

This.

Remember, you are not a freaking COP! And you will receive *none*, zip, zero, of the consideration that is afforded LEO. Stay safe and stay inside.

Yeah I know it sucks and goes directly against your (our) pre-conceived notions of manlyness, but suck it down and stay out of jail (at the least) and out of jail AND therapy (at the worst if you end up taking a life over a piece of property.)

AAShooter
08-10-2010, 9:54 PM
Regardless of legality, are you willing to die for a car? That is a real possible outcome of your intervention.

jamesob
08-10-2010, 9:56 PM
if i go to jail for brandishing while someone is stealing my car, i will take my chances with the jury.

QuarterBoreGunner
08-10-2010, 10:01 PM
Regardless of legality, are you willing to die for a car? That is a real possible outcome of your intervention.

Or are you willing to kill for a car?

Think about it keyboard commando's... are you willing to kill or die for... a car?

Sudaev
08-10-2010, 10:01 PM
Navy Times, CA
State: CA
American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/1968
U.S. Navy Seaman Thomas J. Hudson, 21, a security guard at the Navy amphibious base at Coronado, Calif., while off duty looked out of his apartment window and saw a man crouched at a neighbor's apartment window. He notified police, then got a shotgun and held the prowler until the police arrived. San Diego police gave him a citation saying "Quite often we find people are reluctant to enter into police cases for fear of becoming involved. You are to be commended for the prompt and courageous action you took."

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=147521


I realize it's not a car theft, but no matter. That is how California used to be.

E Pluribus Unum
08-10-2010, 10:02 PM
Presenting a firearm in a threatening manner is brandishing in all scenarios. Cops do it all the time, but only the common man will be harassed for it.

Cali-Shooter
08-10-2010, 10:04 PM
Forget what is legal and what isn't. Remember that it could well be that the car thief has an armed accomplice on the lookout hiding in the shadows.

Stay safely indoors, dial 911 and trip the car's security alarms. The car isn't worth your life.

Agreed, this is the best course of action.

tyrist
08-10-2010, 10:16 PM
I don't know how many times to tell people this...there is what the penal code legally says and then there it what is tactically intelligent to do. If you are in plain clothes and holding a gun on somebody YOU look like the suspect. What if somebody else with a gun is in the area and sees you pointing a gun at somebody else? Plain clothes and off duty cops get shot all the time because of situations like this.

You should not have a gun in your hand unless bullets are flying out of it because the situation has escalated to deadly force and life is being protected.

theoutcast32
08-10-2010, 10:17 PM
too much pansy in here. slay the aholes. my car is my lifeline. id be *****ed out with no ride to work without it. kill em all i say.

diginit
08-10-2010, 10:17 PM
This.

Remember, you are not a freaking COP! And you will receive *none*, zip, zero, of the consideration that is afforded LEO. Stay safe and stay inside.

Yeah I know it sucks and goes directly against your (our) pre-conceived notions of manlyness, but suck it down and stay out of jail (at the least) and out of jail AND therapy (at the worst if you end up taking a life over a piece of property.)

IMO Manlyness has nothing to do with it. The car that I worked 5 years to pay off is gone, I can't all my tools to work. I lose my job. I can't pay the rent. I'm homeless and hungry. I would be FK'ED! Understand the senario?
It's the difference between right and wrong and the fact that are being taken advantage of that drives a good person to defend their property. Against socalled law or not. Man or woman. I don't think I would need therapy for keeping a roof over my head and food in the fridge. On the otherhand, I would need therapy if I allowed some jerk to ruin my life due to their greed. We don't all have people to fall back on. Some actually have to depend on themselves.

dawson8r
08-10-2010, 10:19 PM
Tell the thief to stay where they are then brandish your detonator. If they move to assault you then press the detonator rigged to the explosives strapped to the bottom of your car. Better yet, detonate from the safety of your home. Oh, and don't stand in front of the window or the shards of glass will shred you. Get behind the couch first.

AAShooter
08-10-2010, 10:20 PM
IMO Manlyness has nothing to do with it. The car that I worked 5 years to pay off is gone, I can't all my tools to work. I lose my job. I can't pay the rent. I'm homeless and hungry. I would be FK'ED! Understand the senario?
It's the difference between right and wrong and the fact that are being taken advantage of that drives a good person to defend their property. Against socalled law or not. Man or woman. I don't think I would need therapy for keeping a roof over my head and food in the fridge. On the otherhand, I would need therapy if I allowed some jerk to ruin my life due to their greed. We don't all have people to fall back on. Some actually have to depend on themselves.

It is not that you can't go confront the guy . . . you just can't do it legally by brandishing a gun.

HotRails
08-10-2010, 10:29 PM
IMO Manlyness has nothing to do with it. The car that I worked 5 years to pay off is gone, I can't all my tools to work. I lose my job. I can't pay the rent. I'm homeless and hungry. I would be FK'ED! Understand the senario?
It's the difference between right and wrong and the fact that are being taken advantage of that drives a good person to defend their property. Against socalled law or not. Man or woman. I don't think I would need therapy for keeping a roof over my head and food in the fridge. On the otherhand, I would need therapy if I allowed some jerk to ruin my life due to their greed. We don't all have people to fall back on. Some actually have to depend on themselves.

Insurance?

QuarterBoreGunner
08-10-2010, 10:29 PM
too much pansy in here. slay the aholes. my car is my lifeline. id be *****ed out with no ride to work without it. kill em all i say.

THERE'S the internet tough guy I thought would show up. Look man, until you've had to shoot a man in real life. STFU and let the adults talk.

diginit; I get that, trust me, I do. If my car was stolen I'd be screwed. My ability to earn and take care of my family would be severely impacted.

But damn, would you bet EVERYTHING you have and are... on what a jury might think? You could lose everything, hell with punitive damages in a civil case you could lose **** you don't even OWN yet. Money you haven't even earned yet.

I know, it freaking sucks. It approaches a laboratory theoretical state of SUCKING and BLOWING at the same time, but you need to keep a cool head and try and stay on top.

Juries can be capricious and any ADA or lawyer will tell you there's no way to tell you what they'll do.

Always, always, always remember - it's a freaking LEGAL system, NOT a JUSTICE system.

dobek
08-10-2010, 10:33 PM
I can carry a loaded firearm around my property -

I come out - yell for them to halt (with gun at my side ready)

they make any move TOWARDS me - we have an issue - - if they flee - we don't.

I am not waving gun at them - I am not threatening them - if they here halt and see gun, hear me say get on the ground and they decide to surrender - - their bad luck.

What is the issue.....

Steve

diginit
08-10-2010, 10:33 PM
It is not that you can't go confront the guy . . . you just can't do it legally with by brandishing a gun.

I know, But I can't exit my home legally with a loaded firearm. UOC would be tooo slow if the thief is armed. I said previously. I would stand in the doorway with my 45 behind my back. Cocked and safety on. Yell at the thief. If he drew, I would hit the floor and fire. I'm relitively safe, Legal, He would do no more harm to inocent people, and I can still get to work. I could do the bodywork and replace the side windows later...

cmaynes
08-10-2010, 10:37 PM
I am really shocked with some of the thoughts in this thread-

just remember, a miss, that doesnt hurt anyone, is gonna cost you about 50K.

Call the Police, and use the gun to protect yourself from a position of safety. Unless you are sworn, you cant do a thing to stop the crime aside from calling the Police.

battleship
08-10-2010, 10:40 PM
So your driving to the range and on the way you see someone on the side of the road attacking another person with a knife, the attacker is straddling the victim and stabbing them repeatedly it appears to be a one sided fight at this point. Can you intervene take out your gun and shoot the attacker if he does not stop his actions. Now would you be a saviour or would the DA go after you.
Sure you could sit there and call the cops while that person finishes off his murderous rampage but thats not going to help the victim.
Im all for stepping up and trying to safe someones life if this situation ever occurred but would i be going to jail for it.

Midnightblue 72
08-10-2010, 10:40 PM
About 10 years ago, I was in that exact situation, only problem was I walked outside without my weapon.

I used to live in a hell hole called Moreno (Mo'Ghetto) Valley, I had lived there since moving from Hawaii in 1978 when it was called Sunnymead.

At about 1030pm, I had a weird gut feeling something was wrong. I started going room to room and then checked on my elderly mom and everything was okay.

I walked out of my house, upon crossing the threshold of the doorway, I saw the passenger door on my 1994 Toyota truck was open. My mind said, "Why did my mom leave the door open?" As I approached the truck, I saw what appeared to be movement and approached the vehicle from the rear.

As I began to walk up to the truck, I could clearly see two legs and a torso, I ran toward the truck. As I did, the badguy jumped up and I was face to face with an HMA gang banger, shaved head, wife beater, baggy shorts, Nikes and the BIGGEST screwdriver I had EVER SEEN. It looked to be 24" long (actually 12")and we had that "OH SH*T moment, he ran toward me and I proceeded to conduct a rapid, rearward tactical movement (I RAN AS FAST AS I COULD) back to my house.

I called 9-11 gave a DOT and full description and grabbed my keys and the chase was on.

As I pulled out, the entire rear slider of my truck fell out, he pryed the entire rear window out to gain access to the cab and placed it back in the cut out. I rammed through the gears and was 50 yards away when the first unit caught him. Lucky for me the responding deputy who caught said dirtbag was responding to my house on a suspicious person call.

What have I learned from that? I dont leave my home with out my weapons EVER, for the same reason I have car insurance, spare tires and first aid kits for all my cars. Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. I dont care WHY I leave the house, if I leave, I am armed.

diginit
08-10-2010, 10:40 PM
I can carry a loaded firearm around my property -

I come out - yell for them to halt (with gun at my side ready)

they make any move TOWARDS me - we have an issue - - if they flee - we don't.

I am not waving gun at them - I am not threatening them - if they here halt and see gun, hear me say get on the ground and they decide to surrender - - their bad luck.

What is the issue.....

Steve

Steve, Unless you live in the sticks or have a fence around your front yard and a gate on your driveway that prohibits all entry, Wheather you own the property of not, It is considered PUBLIC. The average citizen cannot carry a loaded firearm in public legally.

stitchnicklas
08-10-2010, 10:46 PM
I hear anything in my front yard i am going out to investigate and i am taking my xd45.
if they are stealing the car i just hit the alarm and disable the engine(fiber optic security)
when they get out to run i order them to freeze,if they run ,then they are lucky,if they stay they got to jail.my property is my castle and i do not give a rats azz who says what,because i can carry loaded and open on my property if i want ,period.
but i am not chasing some idiot down the street for 2 reasons,1 my knee don't run and 2 not on my property.

if the idiot gets out of the car and charges me then he will be done for and i will just deal with the courts,if the cops come i will be on the phone telling them i have a car thief detained at gun point.

some my say insurance,but i say NO i want the thief to pay...
no gun brandishing on your own property...screw that.i do not live within the area of a school or prohibited area.so let the cops come,i will deal with it and be fine as long as i do not get trigger happy or anything... i have a house and property not a condo or apartment so the public property starts at the curb. end rant.

stitchnicklas
08-10-2010, 10:48 PM
Steve, Unless you live in the sticks or have a fence around your front yard and a gate on your driveway that prohibits all entry, Wheather you own the property of not, It is considered PUBLIC. The average citizen cannot carry a loaded firearm in public legally.

sorry i disagree with you ,my front yard is not public property,i need no fence....

those that disagree ....well sorry this my opinion,i respect all others opinions and my own..

GOEX FFF
08-10-2010, 10:50 PM
This scenario just happened a few weeks ago in VC.
I dont believe the Victim was faced with any charges.

http://www.vcstar.com/news/2010/jul/29/suspect-in-auto-thief-in-custody-after-chase-in/

diginit
08-10-2010, 10:50 PM
i have a house and property not a condo or apartment so the public property starts at the curb. end rant.

Your front yard is considered being in public. The ONLY way you can carry a loaded gun is INSIDE your home. Do a search. This has been discussed here many times.

QuarterBoreGunner
08-10-2010, 10:51 PM
^a lot of heat there and I totally understand that but not a lot of light.

I think, to me, the answer to the OPs original question:

"Is it advisable to draw a weapon on someone stealing your parked car?"

Is... no.

Direct immediate threat of death or great physical injury to you or your immediate loved ones?

Hell yes. Shoot twice, three times, empty the gun. Reload, shoot more.

Lulfas
08-10-2010, 10:52 PM
sorry i disagree with you ,my front yard is not public property,i need no fence....

those that disagree ....well sorry this my opinion,i respect all others opinions and my own..

You're entitled to your own opinion, just not your own facts. Factually, you are incorrect.

destro360
08-10-2010, 10:53 PM
your not killing or dying for a car, your doing it for principle and integrity. i'd grab a hand gun keep it low/out of sight, see if you can agitate the thief to the point where he threatens you or he brandishes, then unload your mag in his face. :68: tell him your calling the cops and he looks like a puzzy haha

Aleksandr Mravinsky
08-10-2010, 10:55 PM
So your driving to the range and on the way you see someone on the side of the road attacking another person with a knife, the attacker is straddling the victim and stabbing them repeatedly it appears to be a one sided fight at this point. Can you intervene take out your gun and shoot the attacker if he does not stop his actions. Now would you be a saviour or would the DA go after you.
Sure you could sit there and call the cops while that person finishes off his murderous rampage but thats not going to help the victim.
Im all for stepping up and trying to safe someones life if this situation ever occurred but would i be going to jail for it.

IANAL, but I think that deadly force is allowed in defense of (human) life (regardless of if it is your own). But regardless of if it was legal, I don't think I'd be able to live with myself knowing that I could have saved a life but didn't.

diginit
08-10-2010, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by stitchnicklas http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4762569#post4762569)
sorry i disagree with you ,my front yard is not public property,i need no fence....

those that disagree ....well sorry this my opinion,i respect all others opinions and my own..


This is LEO's opinion and PC . You have a few things to learn yet. Property is not private simply because you own it. If it is in public view, It is in public. Maybe you should make a post about it, Then apoligize when you get the true answer because you have been misinformed and can go to jail. I don't want to see that happen.

Lead-Thrower
08-10-2010, 11:01 PM
When I was younger I woke up to see a guy going through my car (parked in the street in front of my parents' house). I remember being so pissed off that I grabbed my baseball bat, ran outside, and ran full speed at the guy, who saw me coming and took off. I chased him down the street for a while, and can honestly say that I wanted to beat his face in. This is where a gun would have been a bad thing. If I had one at the time, there is no telling what could have happened, because when something like this happens to you, all you want to do is make the punk pay.

I'll admit, this was a reckless and dangerous act on my part, the guy could have been armed for all I knew...

Brianguy
08-10-2010, 11:14 PM
Dial 911 and yell at the A-hole from a window and hopefully he'll run off. If theres no threat to anyones life its not worth bringing out your gun. Why risk your life over a car?

stitchnicklas
08-10-2010, 11:18 PM
This is LEO's opinion and PC . You have a few things to learn yet. Property is not private simply because you own it. If it is in public view, It is in public. Maybe you should make a post about it, Then apologize when you get the true answer because you have been misinformed and can go to jail. I don't want to see that happen.

apologize?why i was giving a honest opinion and not insulting anyone??

i have just had too much stolen from me in my life and refuse to stand and let a dirtbag do it in front of me,like i said if a guy tried to run away i would do nothing,if he ran at me then he is done,i do think there is a wide open range that has been infinitely discussed and will continue to be discussed.but i think every person here would go out side to investigate a noise out side their house and at night they most likely will go armed,so if you think i am insulting you then i am sorry you interpret it that way because i never set out to insult people.

thefinger
08-10-2010, 11:23 PM
I would go outside to tell the sono***un that he needs to scram. I would do so with a pistol or shotgun behind my back or otherwise not pointing at the perp-- just in case he became a threat. If AND ONLY IF the perp made a move to injur me and I was afraid for my life would I then utilize my weapon (brandish or fire).

Opening fire on the perp before confronting him would obviously be unjustified and illegal. However, you are allowed to confront someone who is stealing or destroying your property.

Confrontig the perp is reasonable and legal. If he decides to escalate things to the point of violence and threatens your life you are then allowed to defend yourself.

As for the "hide and call 911 while the guy steals your car" strategy... pretty lame if you ask me. Who in their right mind would sit back and let a guy steal their car while they watched. I cannot really fathom that.

Maestro Pistolero
08-10-2010, 11:24 PM
When police pull over a stolen vehicle. it's called a hot-stop and they do it with multiple units when possible, and with guns drawn everytime. That's how dangerous it is.

First call 911, and give them a description of yourself, the perp , and the location. Keep them on the line (with the speaker phone in your pocket if necessary).

If the thief has not started the car yet, I would be inclined to light him up with my surefire (200 lumens :eek:) and stand behind cover with my gun ready, but not visible.

If he decides to assault me the best he can hope for is a face full of pepper spray and a kick in the balls before police arrive. If he deploys a weapon, then it's no longer about vehicle theft, is it?

Make damn sure you give dispatch a good description of yourself and the perp. And ask the dispatcher to let you know when the police are close (so you can stow your weapon.)

Monticore
08-10-2010, 11:28 PM
Back in the mid 80's a neighbor kids Dad had his rifle taken for a while. Can't remember the details. Across the street from his house were a few guys drinking their beer that they got from the liquor store right around the corner. It was getting late and they were getting louder so he went out to ask them to keep it down. They told him to take a hike. He went back out a little while later with his A-Team looking rifle (mini 14?) behind his back, grip at lower back, muzzle pointing up behind his head. It was out of sight the whole time. He asked them to keep it down again, the responded poorly again, he said he was going to call the police and turned and walked away. They sobered up real quick and hightailed it out of there. The police came knocking shortly after and took the rifle, and him too I think, for brandishing.
He never moved it, pointed it, waved it around... still brandishing.
He may have been worried about the 3 against 1 odds.
I think he just wanted to scare them.
I learned what not to do after hearing that story.

I think if I'm at the point of a confrontation, I will LOC my thigh holster and just swear that it was UOC when the fuzz gets involved. For me it's hypothetical as both my cars are always in the garage, which is right under my bedroom. I'm sure the rules are different in that setting. Well, I hope anyway.

Meplat
08-10-2010, 11:29 PM
For multiple reasons it is never a good idea to show you are armed until you have come to the point where you need to shoot. Never try to 'control' anyone with a firearm.


In California, if you were to awaken in the middle of the night and observe someone trying to steal your parked car, would you be legally justified by going outside with a loaded firearm to confront them?

Or would this be considered an illegal act of brandishing a weapon?

Maestro Pistolero
08-10-2010, 11:31 PM
You are under no obligation whatsoever to allow someone to steal your property unchallenged. But you better understand the proper escalation of force. Remember it is his actions that dictate the level of force, and you better have more than one option. Pepper spray, a bat or big-*** flashlight and a gun are all in order. Which one gets used is up to him.

Remember, you are NOT pepper-spraying, striking or shooting him for stealing a car. You are defending yourself during a lawful detention. It's all on him. Start giving commands and make sure he does what you tell him. "Keep your hands on the wheel", "get out of the car", "get on the ground", whatever, and then make him do it. F@@k him. I hate a thief.

Theseus
08-10-2010, 11:39 PM
Lets look at the PC first.

837. A private person may arrest another:
1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not
in his presence.
3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable
cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.One can perform a lawful arrest for the above reasons.

12031(j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the person or property of himself or herself or of another is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its assistance.
(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making or attempting to make a lawful arrest.You can carry a loaded firearm for the reasons above, including while conducting a lawful arrest.

PC 197(4) Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:

When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.Justifiable homicide conditions when conducting a lawful arrest/apprehension.

Don't take extremely unordianry risks with your safety or life. Use your own guidance to determine if you feel it is worth the risk. IANAL, and this is only my understanding of the wording of PC, and does not include case law interpretations.

stitchnicklas
08-10-2010, 11:42 PM
paddle holster is what i use,so i would not go out in hand ,but i would take a hip holstered 45.

i caught a guy prowling once and he ran so i yelled at him to never come back or it would be his last act (not exact words)due to cursing that i said and would not be appropriate here

diginit
08-10-2010, 11:43 PM
apologize?why i was giving a honest opinion and not insulting anyone??

i have just had too much stolen from me in my life and refuse to stand and let a dirtbag do it in front of me,like i said if a guy tried to run away i would do nothing,if he ran at me then he is done,i do think there is a wide open range that has been infinitely discussed and will continue to be discussed.but i think every person here would go out side to investigate a noise out side their house and at night they most likely will go armed,so if you think i am insulting you then i am sorry you interpret it that way because i never set out to insult people.

I guess it was the way you said "and my own". Made me feel that you are right because that was your opinion and people that know the facts were wrong simply because we said you were mistaken. Like trying to tell a cop or ranger they are wrong. They just have to be right no matter what. I hate that attitude. But I may have been mistaken.
If you are going to carry loaded in public, It is only a misdemeaner the first time. Second is a felony and you will lose your RTBA. Be careful, and... chase him down so he doesn't screw anyone else!

a1c
08-10-2010, 11:44 PM
If you're going to attempt a citizen's arrest, better know what the hell you're doing.

Sudaev
08-10-2010, 11:49 PM
Lets look at the PC first.


12031(j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the person or property of himself or herself or of another is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its assistance.
(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making or attempting to make a lawful arrest.


Thanks for that; I had forgotten what section.

k1dude
08-10-2010, 11:56 PM
I remember reading in the paper of a guy whose remote car alarm fob on his keychain next to his bedside went off at about 2am. He jumped up and looked out of his apartment window to see 2 guys in his car ripping out his stereo.

He grabbed his shotgun and told his wife to call 911. He held the 2 crooks at gunpoint until the police arrived. The cops jumped out of their car with weapons drawn and yelled at him to drop the weapon. When he did the police arrested him and told the 2 punks to get lost and don't come back. The car owner was arrested and the crooks were kicked loose at the scene.

The last I recall is he was in serious trouble and going to jail.

This was a couple decades ago so I don't know if the laws have changed or not.

stitchnicklas
08-11-2010, 12:12 AM
I guess it was the way you said "and my own". Made me feel that you are right because that was your opinion and people that know the facts were wrong simply because we said you were mistaken. Like trying to tell a cop or ranger they are wrong. They just have to be right no matter what. I hate that attitude. But I may have been mistaken.
If you are going to carry loaded in public, It is only a misdemeaner the first time. Second is a felony and you will lose your RTBA. Be careful, and... chase him down so he doesn't screw anyone else!

sorry this old guy can't chase a 3 legged rabbit on a good day,like i said i meant zero disrespect,but open carry is legal on your own property still i think and holstered loaded carry is still legal i think own your own property.
i realize i can not run out waving a gun and have to take all the right steps to escalate things. but i believe in not standing idle by and letting a dirtball steal what you earned,but a kid stealing a stereo is not a shoot situation to me,intervening is,....

pullnshoot25
08-11-2010, 12:35 AM
sorry this old guy can't chase a 3 legged rabbit on a good day,like i said i meant zero disrespect,but open carry is legal on your own property still i think and holstered loaded carry is still legal i think own your own property.
i realize i can not run out waving a gun and have to take all the right steps to escalate things. but i believe in not standing idle by and letting a dirtball steal what you earned,but a kid stealing a stereo is not a shoot situation to me,intervening is,....

It is a sticky situation due to public vs. private.

jlh95811
08-11-2010, 12:40 AM
Or are you willing to kill for a car?

Think about it keyboard commando's... are you willing to kill or die for... a car?

That's an interesting question.
I have had a car stolen before. It was my only car. I was broke. My minimal insurance didn't cover theft. The person, who was driving drunk and with a revoked liscense, crashed my car. It burned to a crisp. He got out of prison within 18 months and went back home. Oh did I mention his home is across the street from me?!? Any idea how hard it is to look at this dude every day? Nobody ever paid for the car. It took me almost two years to buy a new car. Fortunately I had just found a great job. My current car is worth about 6 times more than the old one. Unfortunately I am without employment now and am nearly broke, again.
So to answer the question...
If it were a different theif... No. I would not.
If it were him again... I'd have to consider it at this point. Mostly just on principle.
This dude is about to get out of prison, AGAIN! This time for his 7th DUI!!! Yes; 7th!!! It was all over the news.(I think my car was his 5th)
Please tell me why this piece of human poo is still allowed to live in our society...

faterikcartman
08-11-2010, 12:41 AM
I would stay in and call the police.

That said, in answer to some questions above, yes, I think it is worth risking and taking life to protect property such as a car. All free men should be expected to do so, or at least entitled. To delegate all such duty to police makes otherwise free men a sub class. And it diminishes society.

When a guilty party breaks the social contract it should not be incumbent on the innocent to determine how far they are going to break it -- by simply stealing your car, and potentially ruining your life because you need it for work and could not afford comprehensive insurance, or going through the car, and then on to your house to rape your wife and kill the both of you. And because you don't know how far they'll go, or whether they're armed, you cannot reasonably confront the thief unarmed.

Of course with schools and society rejecting concepts of right and wrong for many years now, people lack the moral clarity to make such a judgment. The result is the laws we have, and the opinions here that property is not worth it. Even they, of course, don't really believe that. If the Muslims, Chinese, or whomever, wanted to take over would you let them to avoid loss of life. What if you knew for sure they would not hurt anyone if we did not resist? If you would fight, you would simply be killing and dying for property. Ah, so you say no, you would be fighting for a way of life? Exactly my point.

But this is not the country nor world we live in so I will absolute go along with the laws here and not intervene. I will call the police and cross my fingers.

If I ever want to live in a world where a man can protect his property, I suppose I'll move to Texas. They used to hang horse thieves. Now we're civilized. Or so they say.

Edit: I just found this quote in the sig line of another Calgunner. It says it pretty well:
"No kingdom can be secured otherwise than by arming the people. The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave. He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion.
James Burgh, (1714–1775)"

Vox
08-11-2010, 12:42 AM
CPC section 417(a) (2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
punishable as follows:
(A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three
months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(B) In all cases other than that set forth in subparagraph (A), a
misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less
than three months.

But what if you come out and confront the car thief with a baseball bat?
Not with the express intent of bashing his face in, but as a self defense weapon in case he doesn't turn tail. I would confront a car thief by holding a baseball bat, yelling at him to get away from my car, and call the cops on him. Should be good to go, right?

4179(a) (1) is any weapon other than a firearm used in the same manner.

Sudaev
08-11-2010, 12:47 AM
I remember reading in the paper of a guy whose remote car alarm fob on his keychain next to his bedside went off at about 2am. He jumped up and looked out of his apartment window to see 2 guys in his car ripping out his stereo.

He grabbed his shotgun and told his wife to call 911. He held the 2 crooks at gunpoint until the police arrived. The cops jumped out of their car with weapons drawn and yelled at him to drop the weapon. When he did the police arrested him and told the 2 punks to get lost and don't come back. The car owner was arrested and the crooks were kicked loose at the scene.

The last I recall is he was in serious trouble and going to jail.

No offense but the story of cops kicking car burglars loose sounds rather fantastic, i.e., so extreme as to challenge belief.

This was a couple decades ago so I don't know if the laws have changed or not.

The further back one goes, the better things were in that regard.

thayne
08-11-2010, 12:56 AM
No offense but the story of cops kicking car burglars loose sounds rather fantastic, i.e., so extreme as to challenge belief.



The further back one goes, the better things were in that regard.

word, I say fud

thayne
08-11-2010, 1:00 AM
12031(j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the person or property of himself or herself or of another is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its assistance.
(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making or attempting to make a lawful arrest.

This

2Bear
08-11-2010, 1:06 AM
Lets look at the PC first.

Quote:
PC 197(4) Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:

When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.



Not to thread jack, but say SHTF, hence, zombie BGs are in "riot" mode, so, of course they come up my street brandishing Molotov cocktails, axes, pitchforks and various other implements of destruction.

I am on my roof deck looking down, (or in a window of my home), likely enjoying a fine beverage. They stop, right near my car, me, my house, (and my puppy), light the Molotov cocktail and wind up ready to throw it somewhere...

No more worries about brandishing, I can open fire, no?

Sounds like if I think there's a riot, I have quite a bit more wiggle room, no?

What's more, sounds like you could drive a truck through, "or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace," especially with zombies about.

thrillhouse700
08-11-2010, 1:09 AM
You would have to show some EPIC stealth to get close enough to the perp to draw your gun on him without him knowing let alone being able to finish the drawing. Best bet would be to use a sharpie or one of those silver paint markers.

1. Do you already have the weapon you are going to draw chosen?
2. Do you memorize said weapon with photographic memory?
3. What if the perp is too skinny to draw your LR-308, do you have a back up weapon that you can draw that does not require as much "canvas"?
4. What do you do if the perp catches you in mid drawing?

If it is in the middle of the night you would need proper lighting to get the shading and proper details.

Before you ever commit to doing this, please remember there is a lot to take into account before committing to this.

PsychGuy274
08-11-2010, 1:18 AM
IANAL, but do work for law enforcement (non-sworn).

417 PC states that you cannot display a weapon in a threatening or rude manner, etc, etc. You are legally allowed to confront people stealing your property. You do not have a duty to retreat.

With that said, if you feel you must confront them, have a HOLSTERED side arm and yell at them from your front door. If you don't have a CCW or a fenced yard do not walk outside with a loaded weapon because you can be snagged for 12031 PC. Only touch your weapon if you feel you're threatened. Chances are that they won't see your weapon anyways and will just run when they hear you yell at them.

But again, that's if you must confront them for whatever reason. It's advisable to just call the police, stay inside and most importantly FILM the person stealing your car.

In my opinion you should be allowed to put a brand new hole in someones face for trying to steal your property, but unfortunately we don't live in that world.

DisgruntledReaper
08-11-2010, 1:28 AM
sneak up behind,club them,sneak back in the house,call cops........:whistling:

Maestro Pistolero
08-11-2010, 1:30 AM
sneak up behind,club them,sneak back in the house,call cops........:whistling:

Yeah. just get yourself a Barney Rubble brontosaurus bone, get Deano to distract him and BONK.

Seesm
08-11-2010, 1:31 AM
Its a car... NO the liability sits on you if you kill the thief.
Keep your car insured.

2Bear
08-11-2010, 1:51 AM
sneak up behind,club them,sneak back in the house,call cops........:whistling:

There are at least 5 video cameras focused on the street in front of my house, none of these cameras are mine. I always think of those cameras first when I think of scenarios like this...

scoot64
08-11-2010, 3:00 AM
in response to
jlh95811 post

You should send a care package to someone on the inside to take care of the guy

jlh95811
08-11-2010, 3:15 AM
in response to
jlh95811 post

You should send a care package to someone on the inside to take care of the guy

LMAO!
Funniest part of all...
He was sentenced on April 22, 2010 to 3 years imprisonment and 4 years parole...
According to his brother... His realse date is October 31, 2010... yep; That's 6 MONTHS on a 3 YEAR sentence!?! Someone on the inside is helping him.

Gotta see this...
http://cbs13.com/local/seven.duis.mark.2.1643487.html
Watch the video

socal2310
08-11-2010, 7:01 AM
I'm surprised no one commented on GEOX FFF's post. It's an actual real-life example of the OP's scenario: A man suspected of auto theft was arrested Thursday in Camarillo after the victim chased him and detained him at gunpoint until police arrived, authorities said. (http://www.vcstar.com/news/2010/jul/29/suspect-in-auto-thief-in-custody-after-chase-in/)

Man hears noises outside at about 2:00 in the morning, looks out the window and observes a man stealing his car. Grabs a gun, chases after him, cuts him off and holds him at gunpoint until police arrive.

This is just one of those cases where YMMV, but he didn't technically do anything illegal. I don't want to dig out my P.O.S.T. manuals, but I remember being surprised when studying laws of arrest that non L.E. actually have considerably more latitude than police when making an arrest.

Ryan

paul0660
08-11-2010, 7:26 AM
Theseus nailed it in post #65. The answer to the op is HECK YES. That brandishing stuff if for a couple roosters squaring off outside a bar.

BTW, there are many places in this big state where a "call to the LEOS", unless it involves a death or serious injury, won't get answered until the next morning, if then. If you live close to a cop shop, use your phone and have the gun at hand. If not, use the phone for the obligatory notice, then do the right thing (cover, concealment, reloads etc. etc.)

Corbin Dallas
08-11-2010, 7:46 AM
If I have enough time to pull a gun, I have enough time to hit panic button on my car key remote control... They flee faster than seeing a gun. And I have time to write down their plate too ...


Actually...

If I have time enough to pull my firearm, I have enough time to start video recording on my phone and light the perp up with my flashlight or even take a picture.

If said perp advances on me in a threatening manner then it's game on.

DiscoBayJoe
08-11-2010, 7:47 AM
It would be an interesting call to see what i'd do. I wouldn't want to get injured or take a life over a vehicle; however I hate being victimized.

> Altho possibly not legal, I don't expect LEO would charge someone for carrying/brandishing on their property when they thought a crime was being commited, unless there was alcohol or a history of domestic disturbances or some other additional circumstance

> If I was wrong with the above and an LEO/DEA pressed charges, I would expect a Jury to consider it reasonable to be armed if you thought a crime was being commited on your property.

> If anyone wants to steal my car, its in my garage. They Key is on the workbench ontop of a box of free ammo. I'll be gone all day. That would sure be alot easier than dealing with selling it! hahah.

OleCuss
08-11-2010, 8:15 AM
You would have to show some EPIC stealth to get close enough to the perp to draw your gun on him without him knowing let alone being able to finish the drawing. Best bet would be to use a sharpie or one of those silver paint markers.

1. Do you already have the weapon you are going to draw chosen?
2. Do you memorize said weapon with photographic memory?
3. What if the perp is too skinny to draw your LR-308, do you have a back up weapon that you can draw that does not require as much "canvas"?
4. What do you do if the perp catches you in mid drawing?

If it is in the middle of the night you would need proper lighting to get the shading and proper details.

Before you ever commit to doing this, please remember there is a lot to take into account before committing to this.

I really appreciate the perspective.:D

I think that before I attempt this I need to get the training first. My drawing isn't that smooth and to do a good job swiftly is just out of the question. I don't think I could intimidate any crook - even with a silver Sharpie!

OleCuss
08-11-2010, 8:20 AM
So far as the OP is concerned, if it is clear that they're trying to steal my vehicle I agree that calling 911 and taking appropriate cover is correct.

The problem is when it is not so clear. At times I'll hear odd noises (typically in the back yard) and I cannot tell if there is skulduggery in progress. Is it reasonable in that case to take your firearm and go check on the back yard - or maybe even the front yard? And yes, I understand a little about the tactical concerns, but I'm not calling the cops and tell them that I heard an unusual noise and would they come to see if it's a cat?. . .

Oh, and a ClipDraw is a wonderful thing. . . You can clip that pistol onto almost anything you're wearing at the time and go concealed in a hurry.

Decoligny
08-11-2010, 8:22 AM
CPC section 417(a) (2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
punishable as follows:
(A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three
months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(B) In all cases other than that set forth in subparagraph (A), a
misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less
than three months.

But what if you come out and confront the car thief with a baseball bat?
Not with the express intent of bashing his face in, but as a self defense weapon in case he doesn't turn tail. I would confront a car thief by holding a baseball bat, yelling at him to get away from my car, and call the cops on him. Should be good to go, right?

If you are voluntarily entering into a confrontation, then it is no longer self defense. You were safely locked up in your home. By going outside, with a weapon, you have escalated the situation. And having/using a baseball bat for "self defense" is a violation of PC 12020 (a billy).

Stay inside.
Call 911
Push the panic button on the key fob. A honking horn (on the car he is stealing) will usually send a car thief running.

Glock22Fan
08-11-2010, 8:28 AM
If you are voluntarily entering into a confrontation, then it is no longer self defense. You were safely locked up in your home. By going outside, with a weapon, you have escalated the situation. And having/using a baseball bat for "self defense" is a violation of PC 12020 (a billy).

Stay inside.
Call 911
Push the panic button on the key fob. A honking horn (on the car he is stealing) will usually send a car thief running.

Or, as many of you have advised, go ourside and shoot the a@@hole. After all, your car is worth so much more to you than the 50K - 100K it will cost you to fight the lawsuits and the time you might spend in jail. :rolleyes: Not to mention the possibility that you might end up as the guy lying on the slab in the morgue.

Decoligny
08-11-2010, 8:33 AM
I can carry a loaded firearm around my property -

I come out - yell for them to halt (with gun at my side ready)

they make any move TOWARDS me - we have an issue - - if they flee - we don't.

I am not waving gun at them - I am not threatening them - if they here halt and see gun, hear me say get on the ground and they decide to surrender - - their bad luck.

What is the issue.....

Steve

If you live in an incorporated city or prohibited area of unicorporated territory, and your front yard is NOT fenced in, then you cannot carry a loaded firearm without violating PC 12031. Without a fence, if in an incorporated city, etc., then your front yard is considered "a public area", i.e. an area accessible to the public (not to be confused with public property). PC 12031 specifically says you cannot carry a loaded firearm "in any public area" of an incorporated city, etc.

paul0660
08-11-2010, 8:42 AM
(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making or attempting to make a lawful arrest.

It doesn't matter about front yard or back yard, incorporated or not, your property or life or someone else's, this is what you are doing..........stopping a crime and attempting to make an arrest.

Maestro Pistolero
08-11-2010, 8:50 AM
CPC section 417(a) does not apply to making a lawful arrest.

This does:
837. A private person may arrest another:
1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not
in his presence.
3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable
cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

And this:
12031(j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the person or property of himself or herself or of another is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its assistance.
(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making or attempting to make a lawful arrest.

And this:


PC 197(4) Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.

chaunbot
08-11-2010, 9:09 AM
CPC section 417(a) (2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
punishable as follows:
(A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three
months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(B) In all cases other than that set forth in subparagraph (A), a
misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less
than three months.

So don't use a pistol grab a rifle or a shotgun!

Decoligny
08-11-2010, 9:15 AM
I hear anything in my front yard i am going out to investigate and i am taking my xd45.
if they are stealing the car i just hit the alarm and disable the engine(fiber optic security)
when they get out to run i order them to freeze,if they run ,then they are lucky,if they stay they got to jail.my property is my castle and i do not give a rats azz who says what,because i can carry loaded and open on my property if i want ,period.but i am not chasing some idiot down the street for 2 reasons,1 my knee don't run and 2 not on my property.

if the idiot gets out of the car and charges me then he will be done for and i will just deal with the courts,if the cops come i will be on the phone telling them i have a car thief detained at gun point.

some my say insurance,but i say NO i want the thief to pay...
no gun brandishing on your own property...screw that.i do not live within the area of a school or prohibited area.so let the cops come,i will deal with it and be fine as long as i do not get trigger happy or anything... i have a house and property not a condo or apartment so the public property starts at the curb. end rant.

You can do anything you want to do. You will however have to face the legal repercussions that are associated with those actions.

Yes you can carry loaded on your property, IF you have a fenced in property. Otherwise, if you live in Riverside as your profile says, then you are in an incorporated city, and an unfenced yard is considered "a public area" an PC 12031 says if you carry loaded, you have committed a crime.

Get caught committing the crime and you go to jail.

Stainned
08-11-2010, 9:17 AM
edward norton did it with a curb stomp and only did a few years :)

LOL..... That is one scene I will never forget.

amd64
08-11-2010, 10:10 AM
What a fked up place we live in. The thieves have more "rights" than we do.

+1.

And thieves know that, so they'll keep on stealing stuff, and laugh while we wait for the cops and watch them drive away to the chop shop.

Thieves are a protected species, crime pays. And we can blame our society for this situation.

CSACANNONEER
08-11-2010, 10:18 AM
Probably depends on the situation. If someone is at my place (in the middle of no where) and attempting to steal or disable my vehicles, I'd consider the possibility/probability that they were going to come after me and just stopping my chance of escape. Anyway, I'd call the police first. When they finally arrive (I'll estimate 2-3 hours for them to find the place) they can deal with taking a report and cleaning up any mess.

paul0660
08-11-2010, 10:22 AM
Get caught committing the crime and you go to jail.

Decoligny, you are nearly always on point, but you are consistently ignoring the exception (k) in 12031 applying to citizen's arrests when you quote 12031 for your purpose.

Everyone knows this would be a dicey situation, few people would want to kill or maim over property, but for those of us who can't disable our cars remotely, drive nice old cars that are not insured for loss, or who live where the cops are not just minutes away, the exception (k) to 12031 was included, and I for one would be happier if it were taught in thug school as well as firearms classes.

Maestro Pistolero
08-11-2010, 10:43 AM
Everyone knows this would be a dicey situation, few people would want to kill or maim over property.

Please, everyone try to understand the distinction between killing or maiming over property, and defending yourself during a lawful arrest. There is a very important difference. We don't have a death penalty for stealing cars. Even if we did, it wouldn't get meted out in the streets in a civilized society. It is the only thief's behavior when legitimately confronted that determines his fate, not you. if he resists or attacks, you take appropriate action that's commensurate with his threat. If that threat is lethal, then so is your response

paul0660
08-11-2010, 10:49 AM
Right, Maestro. I meant that "escalating" the situation by protecting the property and possibly causing a reaction by the criminal that leads to his injury or death would not be anyone's first choice. Still, we have a right to protect that property by attempting to stop the activity and arrest the criminal.

BluNorthern
08-11-2010, 10:51 AM
Actually...

If I have time enough to pull my firearm, I have enough time to start video recording on my phone and light the perp up with my flashlight or even take a picture.

If said perp advances on me in a threatening manner then it's game on.
Ever heard of the 21 ft. rule? Not to be disrespectful, but if you've got a phone in one hand and waving a flashlight in the other..that perp, if he has a mind to, is gonna kill you.

k1dude
08-11-2010, 10:59 AM
No offense but the story of cops kicking car burglars loose sounds rather fantastic, i.e., so extreme as to challenge belief.



The further back one goes, the better things were in that regard.

The story is what it is. I changed no details. I remember the story clearly because I was living in another apartment complex nearby and had a shotgun for protection as well. I paid VERY close attention to the case since I never wanted to find myself in the same situation. It was also a topic at work the next day since it was in the news and no one could believe they would arrest the wrong guy in most people's opinion.

They did indeed kick the stereo thieves loose at the scene. Evidently they were juveniles. To add insult to injury, the thieves even kept the stereo when they were told to leave by the police.

I learned of even more details later when I met the guys wife by chance. She told me since the cops let the crooks go at the scene without even asking for ID, they couldn't track them down to testify on behalf of her husband (not that they would anyway).

Bad story all around.

The moral of the story is - Don't do it. I know if I were in the same shoes I would've done the exact same thing and gone to jail. Now I know better because of what happened to that poor guy.

shooting4life
08-11-2010, 11:11 AM
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo123/Dredtiger/Get_Off_My_Lawn.jpg

OleCuss
08-11-2010, 11:28 AM
Ever heard of the 21 ft. rule? Not to be disrespectful, but if you've got a phone in one hand and waving a flashlight in the other..that perp, if he has a mind to, is gonna kill you.

Right. This is a very valid concern.

If you're going to stay on the phone with 911 it is best to have Bluetooth or an equivalent setup. Alternatively, you could actually put the phone down in your vicinity - maybe with video recording going on and maybe use the speakerphone option. It really depends on the tactical situation, but you have to beware of getting yourself tied up by accessories.

Hmm. . . Need to set up a Glock with a built-in videorecorder Bluetooth phone along with a green laser and bright light. Oh, heck, I'll just bring an infantry squad with NVG's, M4's, etc.

amd64
08-11-2010, 11:40 AM
They did indeed kick the stereo thieves loose at the scene. Evidently they were minors. To add insult to injury, the thieves even kept the stereo when they were told to leave by the police.


And the lessons the thieves learned are:


Property crimes pay well.
It is easy and fun to take advantage of law abiding citizens, because all they will do is call the cops and watch anxiously as their stuff is stolen. Even if the cops show up, there's still a chance they can walk away.
Why work hard to earn money to buy stuff when it's so easy and low-risk to just steal it from chumps.

This is what we get from a civilized society that believes every life is precious.

The value of what is stolen is secondary. The action of some s***bag to intentionally trespass onto private property to intentionally break/damage/steal property is what should be legally punishable by instant cheap death. But that will never be legal in this "civilized" society.

Sudaev
08-11-2010, 11:48 AM
I'm surprised no one commented on GEOX FFF's post. It's an actual real-life example of the OP's scenario: A man suspected of auto theft was arrested Thursday in Camarillo after the victim chased him and detained him at gunpoint until police arrived, authorities said. (http://www.vcstar.com/news/2010/jul/29/suspect-in-auto-thief-in-custody-after-chase-in/)

Man hears noises outside at about 2:00 in the morning, looks out the window and observes a man stealing his car. Grabs a gun, chases after him, cuts him off and holds him at gunpoint until police arrive.

This is just one of those cases where YMMV, but he didn't technically do anything illegal. I don't want to dig out my P.O.S.T. manuals, but I remember being surprised when studying laws of arrest that non L.E. actually have considerably more latitude than police when making an arrest.

Ryan

Yes - socal2310 is correct. I don't know why people here are still debating the legality of this.

amd64
08-11-2010, 11:48 AM
Please, everyone try to understand the distinction between killing or maiming over property, and defending yourself during a lawful arrest. There is a very important difference. We don't have a death penalty for stealing cars. Even if we did, it wouldn't get meted out in the streets in a civilized society. It is the only thief's behavior when legitimately confronted that determines his fate, not you. if he resists or attacks, you take appropriate action that's commensurate with his threat. If that threat is lethal, then so is your response

No offense/attack directed at quoted poster.

I don't believe we live in a civilized society. If that were true, I wouldn't have to lock, alarm, monitor, run security cameras, and gate/fence my property and own guns for defensive purposes. Sometimes I even have to move to a "good" area when an area turns "bad".

We just have a modern/technical society... far from civilized.

cmaynes
08-11-2010, 11:59 AM
So your driving to the range and on the way you see someone on the side of the road attacking another person with a knife, the attacker is straddling the victim and stabbing them repeatedly it appears to be a one sided fight at this point. Can you intervene take out your gun and shoot the attacker if he does not stop his actions. Now would you be a saviour or would the DA go after you.
Sure you could sit there and call the cops while that person finishes off his murderous rampage but thats not going to help the victim.
Im all for stepping up and trying to safe someones life if this situation ever occurred but would i be going to jail for it.

it has probably been said already, but that is not a property crime. You could possible get away with brandishing in the interest of protecting life, but from a legal point of view, there had better be a call on the 911 to prove you tried to report the crime first.

all the usual caveats apply including spending at least some time in jail and having the weapon taken into evidence for an extended period of time, and it costing many thousands of dollars to defend yourself. saving a life is all worth that expense though.

If the threat is real- those should be worth it- to the committed citizen. But on the other side of the coin, having a gun does not make you invincible, and gun fighting is very different from the one way range- So, in doing the calculus, losing ones life in the encounter cannot be dismissed. Do what you will, but just know what you are doing.

Glock22Fan
08-11-2010, 11:59 AM
Yes - socal2310 is correct. I don't know why people here are still debating the legality of this.

I'm not debating the legality, just the wisdom.

cmaynes
08-11-2010, 12:04 PM
Yes - socal2310 is correct. I don't know why people here are still debating the legality of this.

becuase of interpretation of the laws- If you are in the unincorporated county areas, where the response times are longer, grace is abundant- if that is attempted in Midtown LA it is a different thing entirely.

AJAX22
08-11-2010, 12:24 PM
So what if they are stealing your car, which has a rifle stored inside?

You KNOW they are armed...

Because they Jace had access to the trunk where your rifle is stored..

How does that change it?

AAShooter
08-11-2010, 12:28 PM
So what if they are stealing your car, which has a rifle stored inside?

You KNOW they are armed...

Because they Jace had access to the trunk where your rifle is stored..

How does that change it?


It makes it more likely you will lose your life. Still doesn't justify brandishing a firearm. Now if your kids are inside, you might have a case.

paul0660
08-11-2010, 12:33 PM
AAshooter did you miss the part of this discussion that points out that it is attempting to effect a citizen's arrest, not brandishing?

You are right that it makes the situation more dangerous, but one should always assume that a criminal is armed. I just wish they assumed the same about us.

Maestro Pistolero
08-11-2010, 12:33 PM
Right, Maestro. I meant that "escalating" the situation by protecting the property and possibly causing a reaction by the criminal that leads to his injury or death would not be anyone's first choice. Still, we have a right to protect that property by attempting to stop the activity and arrest the criminal.

Correct. And I realized after my post that it may have sounded like a rebuttal, which it wasn't. I agree with you, and was emphasizing a separate point that some folks here didn't seem to be getting.

Maestro Pistolero
08-11-2010, 12:38 PM
I don't believe we live in a civilized society. If that were true, I wouldn't have to lock, alarm, monitor, run security cameras, and gate/fence my property and own guns for defensive purposes. Sometimes I even have to move to a "good" area when an area turns "bad".I suppose we have different definitions of civilized. I mean we are a nation of laws and justice. Is it perfect? Hell no. We will always need to take measures against criminals. Perhaps even more so in a free society. Freedom comes with a daily price. We have to put up with all kinds of risks and unpleasantness to keep it. The alternative is worse though. If we want to live risk free then be prepared to give up your liberty for it.

dreslinger
08-11-2010, 1:00 PM
HOW ABOUT THIS?

_________________
[. ...,.. __________0
[.. ] ___/
[.. ]
[__]

Best I can do on a computer. You should see my paper and pencil ones.

paul0660
08-11-2010, 1:02 PM
Now make it rude, dreslinger.

owenriquez
08-11-2010, 1:44 PM
DON'T POINT YOUR GUN IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO SHOOT... LET LEO AND YOUR INSURANCE DO THEIR JOB, AMEN:)

paul0660
08-11-2010, 1:48 PM
Shouting it doesn't make it right owen. Read the whole thread.

OlderThanDirt
08-11-2010, 2:01 PM
Regardless of legality, are you willing to die for a car? That is a real possible outcome of your intervention.

Some people will out of principal. Who cares about the car, but I have no intention of being a willing victim of crime. What if the guy is raping your wife in your driveway. Is YOUR life in danger? Its only sex; your wife can take a shower afterwords. You can always get a new wife; and like mine, she's insured!!! So, just cower in the house and open another beer. It's safe and you won't get in trouble.

Now, if you find yourself between your car and the only means to exit the area, I can see where your life is in danger when the thief tries to run you down.

AAShooter
08-11-2010, 2:10 PM
Some people will out of principal. Who cares about the car, but I have no intention of being a willing victim of crime. What if the guy is raping your wife in your driveway. Is YOUR life in danger? Its only sex; your wife can take a shower afterwords. You can always get a new wife; and like mine, she's insured!!! So, just cower in the house and open another beer. It's safe and you won't get in trouble.

Now, if you find yourself between your car and the only means to exit the area, I can see where your life is in danger when the thief tries to run you down.

You can't possibly be asking this question seriously. Rape is only sex . . . come on. The legal implications of one situation are completely different than the other.:rolleyes:

paul0660
08-11-2010, 2:16 PM
The legal implications of one situation are completely different than the other.

Actually they are the same:

12031(j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the person or property of himself or herself or of another is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its assistance.
(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making or attempting to make a lawful arrest.

Person or property..................

greg36f
08-11-2010, 2:27 PM
if i go to jail for brandishing while someone is stealing my car, i will take my chances with the jury.

This is the same ole silly stuff that I see here all the time. While I support this in theory, you have to think this through.

How much is your car worth? How much are you going to have to pay a lawyer to go to trial......Thesus paid what? $40,000----$50,000? Ask him what it did to his life. For a car!!!!!!

That being said, I too would go out armed in case I was attacked in the process, but saying ""I would just take it a jury" is not simple or cheap. Sometimes your decision needs to be a logical, monetary one.

OlderThanDirt
08-11-2010, 2:59 PM
You can't possibly be asking this question seriously. Rape is only sex . . . come on. The legal implications of one situation are completely different than the other.:rolleyes:

I wasn't serious, but there have been plenty of politicians that have been insensitive to the issue.

It's a lot like rape. As long as it's inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it. - Republican contender Clayton Williams during the 1990 Texas gubernatorial race.

ETD1010
08-11-2010, 3:03 PM
Brandishing. theft of property isn't a threat to life.

I thought you could use a firearm to stop a felony... Grand theft is a felony last I checked. :confused:

I'm not saying it's a GOOD idea.. but merely a possible LEGAL one.

Ed_in_Sac
08-11-2010, 3:09 PM
Best deterrents are lights and letting them know they are on camera. Mind you, be ready if you approach such a crime in progress with ONLY a camera.

stitchnicklas
08-11-2010, 3:17 PM
i have motion lights and a dummy camera on the driveway....

Nick1236
08-11-2010, 3:26 PM
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/usa/news/article_1375180.php/Texan_kills_2_robbers_while_on_phone_with_911

Texas has it right.

JimWest
08-11-2010, 6:14 PM
Best deterrents are lights and letting them know they are on camera. Mind you, be ready if you approach such a crime in progress with ONLY a camera.

Some years ago, my cousin woke to some commotion in his yard. Looking out an upper floor window of his house he saw a couple guys trying to jack his motorcycle out of his detached garage. Instead of reaching for one of his several weapons he grabbed a laser pointer and from the open window, trained it on one of the guys. He said all he heard was "Sh*t"! before the two guys dived over an ajacent fence head first and took off. No blood, no gunfire and I doubt the criminals were going to call the police. As far as threatening someone with a gun in your yard, I wouldn't do it at all.

2Bear
08-11-2010, 6:22 PM
Anyway, I'd call the police first. When they finally arrive (I'll estimate 2-3 hours for them to find the place) they can deal with taking a report and cleaning up any mess.

Once you've made that 911 call, expressing your concern for your person and property, you can then go outside armed, loaded and dangerous/foolish, nyet?

(IIRC, designating someone, (just LEOs?), with a laser is the equivalent of brandishing in Cali, nyet?)

corrupt
08-11-2010, 6:22 PM
I have always believed that you shouldn't pull out any weapon unless you're going to potentially use it. If that person who is stealing your car runs towards you with empty hands (unarmed), are you going to pull the trigger? I am thinking that it is not advisable. On the other hand, if you do not know if he has a weapon or not, would you approach with a pistol? If I was on my own property there would be no doubt that I would probably pull a weapon on someone stealing my car if I didn't know they were unarmed.

Whatever the case is, before I made myself known to the perp I would make sure to get a good amount of distance between myself and him. At least 25 feet, and maybe behind something (another car), and order him out of the car and to lay on the ground face down. That is if I felt I had to intervene, because a stolen car is not worth my life or even a shootout (to me). That is also after I called the police. Being a civilian, you better have a damned good reason to be confronting someone who is committing a non-lethal crime while you are packing.

Anyway, there are lots of scenarios, there are a lot of variables, but thinking about potential situations is valuable.

AAShooter
08-11-2010, 6:23 PM
Some years ago, my cousin woke to some commotion in his yard. Looking out an upper floor window of his house he saw a couple guys trying to jack his motorcycle out of his detached garage. Instead of reaching for one of his several weapons he grabbed a laser pointer and from the open window, trained it on one of the guys. He said all he heard was "Sh*t"! before the two guys dived over an ajacent fence head first and took off. No blood, no gunfire and I doubt the criminals were going to call the police. As far as threatening someone with a gun in your yard, I wouldn't do it at all.

Lots of places have pretty strict restrictions on pointing laser pointers at folks, that might be worse than pointing a gun in some places.:cool:

Wicked Pete
08-11-2010, 6:25 PM
True story: The son of a good friend, sees someone inside his truck (parked on street), person starts it and was driving off. Owner fired his 9mm at the rear tire to stop the thief, guy runs off. Cops responded; Truck owner was arrested and got 80 days (County) and a $1000 fine. I did not get any details of what specific charges he faced, and/or his criminal record; if any. He lost his right to own guns. This was in an unincorporated area of Contra Costa County, CHP responded.

leoffensive
08-11-2010, 6:43 PM
edward norton did it with a curb stomp and only did a few years :)

haha classic :P

curtisfong
08-11-2010, 7:11 PM
Being a civilian, you better have a damned good reason to be confronting someone who is committing a non-lethal crime while you are packing.


Cops are civilians too. Although unlike you and me, they aren't subjects/serfs.

Theseus
08-11-2010, 7:13 PM
This is the same ole silly stuff that I see here all the time. While I support this in theory, you have to think this through.

How much is your car worth? How much are you going to have to pay a lawyer to go to trial......Thesus paid what? $40,000----$50,000? Ask him what it did to his life. For a car!!!!!!

That being said, I too would go out armed in case I was attacked in the process, but saying ""I would just take it a jury" is not simple or cheap. Sometimes your decision needs to be a logical, monetary one.

What are you talking about? Do you even know what my case was about? Because from this comment you are clueless.

Check facts before bringing my example and name into things, please.

inbox485
08-11-2010, 7:57 PM
Not to thread jack, but say SHTF, hence, zombie BGs are in "riot" mode, so, of course they come up my street brandishing Molotov cocktails, axes, pitchforks and various other implements of destruction.

I am on my roof deck looking down, (or in a window of my home), likely enjoying a fine beverage. They stop, right near my car, me, my house, (and my puppy), light the Molotov cocktail and wind up ready to throw it somewhere...

No more worries about brandishing, I can open fire, no?

Sounds like if I think there's a riot, I have quite a bit more wiggle room, no?

What's more, sounds like you could drive a truck through, "or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace," especially with zombies about.

Riot is one of the few circumstances I'd kill over property. The simple reason is that insurance doesn't cover riot damage. If the OP's question is boiled to a question of legality, I think the answer is yes you can point a gun at a car jacker in progress. I'm fairly certain based on my reading of PC 197 that you can pull the trigger if that is what it takes to stop the felony. That said, I'm not going outside to confront a dirt bag and risk my life over a stupid car. I don't cry when dirt bags die. In fact I think the world is a better place every time it happens. But if I'm the one to be doing the dirty work, it better be saving me from more trouble than it's causing. So unless the crime in question would cause so much damage to my life that dealing with a DA that gets a hard on over prosecuting the good guy would be the lesser of two evils, I'm staying hands off.

greg36f
08-11-2010, 8:47 PM
What are you talking about? Do you even know what my case was about? Because from this comment you are clueless.

Check facts before bringing my example and name into things, please.

No Theseus, I am not clueless abaout your situation. I have pretty much followed it from the start. My comment was not about what caused your arrest / trial, it was about the aftermath.

I am sorry if I offended you, that was not my intent.

I have seen many times here (not just this post) where people say "I will do what I do and let the jury sort it out" like a jury trial is a simple, no issue thing.

You have been very public about the expenses and stress you have gone through and I was simply pointing this out.

I think that you sharing your story and tribulations has be invaluble and I thank you for that.

socal2310
08-11-2010, 10:16 PM
becuase of interpretation of the laws- If you are in the unincorporated county areas, where the response times are longer, grace is abundant- if that is attempted in Midtown LA it is a different thing entirely.

I will grant that Camarillo is not the grand metropolis Los Angeles is, but this happened in an incorporated city with services contracted out with the Sheriff's department and our local police station is way overstaffed. Response times are typically < 10 minutes.

Ryan

CP562
08-11-2010, 11:41 PM
Say you were to call 911 on your way down to the car, and tell the dispatch that you plan to initiate a citizen's arrest, and that you fear the perp to be armed so you're taking your HD gun with you...even go to speaker mode in your pocket so dispatch could be a potential witness.

One, would/could you get ordered to stand down?

And two, wouldn't this approach garner a much faster police response (one which you could also anticipate, and take appropriate steps to mitigate any hostilities or concerns)?

cmaynes
08-12-2010, 12:29 AM
I will grant that Camarillo is not the grand metropolis Los Angeles is, but this happened in an incorporated city with services contracted out with the Sheriff's department and our local police station is way overstaffed. Response times are typically < 10 minutes.

Ryan

which is my point- If you live down at the border, the Sheriff pretty much expects property owners to be armed. because of the location. I live 3 minutes away from a police station- they can and will get here in that time.

With that in mind, I still have dogs, and I still have guns to defend my family.

PsychGuy274
08-12-2010, 12:49 AM
One, would/could you get ordered to stand down?



Dispatch doesn't have the power to order you to stand down. They can suggest it, though.

Blackhawk556
08-12-2010, 2:02 AM
Or are you willing to kill for a car?

Think about it keyboard commando's... are you willing to kill or die for... a car?

i'll think about it if it was this car:D
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g146/du9207/FerrariEnzo.jpg

RolinCode3
08-12-2010, 5:37 AM
Keep in mind that during a citizens arrest, You have to state your name and say that you are initiating a citizens arrest.

I'm surprised no one has called FUD on this yet. You are not required to state your name while attempting to make an arrest; you are only required to tell the person that you are placing them under citizens arrest and what you are arresting them for. You will, however, need to sign the A&D when the cops show up, appear in court, and open yourself up to civil liability. Criminal liability is a real possibility also, if it's decided that what you have done is unlawful (ie - using excessive force or false imprisonment).

From Section 841 of the CA Penal Code:

The person making the arrest must inform the person to be arrested of the intention to arrest him, of the cause of the arrest, and the authority to make it, except when the person making the arrest has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested is actually engaged in the commission of or an attempt to commit an offense, or the person to be arrested is pursued immediately after its commission, or after an escape.
The person making the arrest must, on request of the person he is arresting, inform the latter of the offense for which he is being arrested.

To answer the OP question: You need to do whatever you feel is prudent as a reasonable person in your given situation. There are too many variables to say "yes, you should" or "no, you shouldn't". Is what you propose illegal? No, it's not. CAN it backfire on you, and turn ugly real quick? Oh hell yes.

In this case, I see this as a "detention" rather than a "citizens arrest". A felony not committed in an officer's presence is still an arrestable offense, no citizens arrest needed.

Theseus
08-12-2010, 9:41 AM
No Theseus, I am not clueless abaout your situation. I have pretty much followed it from the start. My comment was not about what caused your arrest / trial, it was about the aftermath.

I am sorry if I offended you, that was not my intent.

I have seen many times here (not just this post) where people say "I will do what I do and let the jury sort it out" like a jury trial is a simple, no issue thing.

You have been very public about the expenses and stress you have gone through and I was simply pointing this out.

I think that you sharing your story and tribulations has be invaluble and I thank you for that.

Then it is my mistake and misunderstanding. I apologize. :cheers2:I had taken it to suggest that somehow I was involved with a situation as the OP's scenario.

But I will say that the majority of the cost is that my case was not a convenient one and includes a fair amount of travel time. Lawyer was in Riverside and case was in Alhambra. That alone made a 1 hour court appearance at least a 3 hour charge in many cases.

Droc101
08-12-2010, 11:29 AM
if i go to jail for brandishing while someone is stealing my car, i will take my chances with the jury.

Remember, We live in a country where a criminal can sue for injuries incurred during a robbery and win: Bodine v. Enterprise High School

QuarterBoreGunner
08-12-2010, 11:33 AM
Remember, We live in a country where a criminal can sue for injuries incurred during a robbery and win: Bodine v. Enterprise High School

Very true. And you don't need a unanimous jury for a civil trial. Even if the bad guy dies, I'll bet he has family...

junker87
08-12-2010, 11:48 AM
I realize it's not a car theft, but no matter. That is how California used to be.

And it took the liberals just one generation to change CA into what we got today.

Elections have consequences.

advocatusdiaboli
08-12-2010, 11:59 AM
I'm surprised no one commented on GEOX FFF's post. It's an actual real-life example of the OP's scenario: A man suspected of auto theft was arrested Thursday in Camarillo after the victim chased him and detained him at gunpoint until police arrived, authorities said. (http://www.vcstar.com/news/2010/jul/29/suspect-in-auto-thief-in-custody-after-chase-in/)

Man hears noises outside at about 2:00 in the morning, looks out the window and observes a man stealing his car. Grabs a gun, chases after him, cuts him off and holds him at gunpoint until police arrive.

This is just one of those cases where YMMV, but he didn't technically do anything illegal. I don't want to dig out my P.O.S.T. manuals, but I remember being surprised when studying laws of arrest that non L.E. actually have considerably more latitude than police when making an arrest.

Ryan

You might want to know that that case is distinguished from the OP's case: the care was in a GATED community and NOT open to the public and therefore private property where an individual owner there can carry loaded. The OP's scenario is an open front yard which, being easily accessed by the public because of the lack of barriers to ingress, is not private property for the purposes of being able to carry loaded per the PC. Big difference.

advocatusdiaboli
08-12-2010, 12:05 PM
Lots of places have pretty strict restrictions on pointing laser pointers at folks, that might be worse than pointing a gun in some places.:cool:

Yes but consider that the perps, having gotten away clean and free, would have to go to the local authorities and file charges implicating themselves in grand theft and breaking and entering at a minimum. You really think that will happen?

Maestro Pistolero
08-12-2010, 12:22 PM
You might want to know that that case is distinguished from the OP's case: the care was in a GATED community and NOT open to the public and therefore private property where an individual owner there can carry loaded. The OP's scenario is an open front yard which, being easily accessed by the public because of the lack of barriers to ingress, is not private property for the purposes of being able to carry loaded per the PC. Big difference.Irrelevant if protecting property with a crime in progress. Doesn't anybody read the threads before posting? The use of a firearm in such circumstances is specifically protected in the laws posted here in multiple posts.

Super Spy
08-12-2010, 12:28 PM
I'd have my pistol loaded and handy (on me) and walk out with a camcorder and try and get a good face shot. I may not stop the a-hole but I will provide damn good evidence to convict the SOB. If he even makes the slightest threat against me it's time for some mean green pepper spray.

Meplat
08-12-2010, 12:46 PM
You sound like the shipping executives whos acquiesence has made piracy a thriving business in Africa. Criminals have to have some fear of their victims or things break down real quick. Without the threat of a combative victim they would not even bother to slink in during the dark of night to steel your car, they would just walk up in broad daylight, spit in your face and take it. Oh, wait, some do that now! Welcome to Somalia.:D

This is the same ole silly stuff that I see here all the time. While I support this in theory, you have to think this through.

How much is your car worth? How much are you going to have to pay a lawyer to go to trial......Thesus paid what? $40,000----$50,000? Ask him what it did to his life. For a car!!!!!!

That being said, I too would go out armed in case I was attacked in the process, but saying ""I would just take it a jury" is not simple or cheap. Sometimes your decision needs to be a logical, monetary one.

advocatusdiaboli
08-12-2010, 1:00 PM
Irrelevant if protecting property with a crime in progress. Doesn't anybody read the threads before posting? The use of a firearm in such circumstances is specifically protected in the laws posted here in multiple posts.

I did read the threads thank you. I am not arguing against the PC--didn't even mention it. No need to load up on me. I was driving home a point about private property with public access, which is relevant in other circumstances as well, and that barriers to public access are required if you are going to carrying loaded. The exception is the PC section regarding that "immediate" period mentioned between calling LE and their arriving. I didn't even mention that because I think we are in violent agreement on it.

spiderpigs
08-12-2010, 1:11 PM
So how does one define a fence

inbox485
08-12-2010, 2:32 PM
Remember, We live in a country where a criminal can sue for injuries incurred during a robbery and win: Bodine v. Enterprise High School

Not all that relevant. The injury related to an unsafe building feature. The injury was not a side effect of a preventative measure. For example, had the robber cut himself on barb wire, he couldn't sue for that. Had the concealed sky light been a deliberate anti burglary measure, it would have resulted in criminal mantrapping charges rather than civil liability.

So how does one define a fence


There isn't a solid definition (yet that somehow doesn't void the law as vague - go figure), but the consensus is that the fence must be a barrier such that a reasonable member of the public would interpret it as a barrier meant not to be crossed. IMO a small decorative picket fence would be about the minimum to make it clear to the public that the space was not open for public entry. A clear cut case from precedent that comes to mind is a chain link fence capable of containing large breed dogs. The take away from that precedent is the barrier does not need to be a visual barrier.

For any further discussion look for threads on public place, 12031, private place, 626.9. It has been discussed ad nauseum.

greg36f
08-12-2010, 2:36 PM
You sound like the shipping executives whos acquiesence has made piracy a thriving business in Africa. Criminals have to have some fear of their victims or things break down real quick. Without the threat of a combative victim they would not even bother to slink in during the dark of night to steel your car, they would just walk up in broad daylight, spit in your face and take it. Oh, wait, some do that now! Welcome to Somalia.:D

I am not acquiescing to anything. The last line of my post says that I WILL go out and confront the bad guy. I have done so more that once (I do live in a rural area though).

I am just saying that there may be a price for doing so and you had better factor that into your consideration.

Some people here throw the phrase 'I will just let a jury decide" around pretty casually.

The entire point of my post was that a jury trial is not a cake walk and that you had better realize what you are getting into before you do something. Both in expence and in stress. Consider ALL of the consequences before you act.

That being said, I believe that ships that pass near that area of the world should have deck guns and trained people on board ready to use them. That or the international community should pay for patrols to accompany the ships. I would pay a few cents extra for goods to provide the funding for that.

Believe me, I HATE thieves as much or more than you do; really, I do. I will never give a thief a break.

POLICESTATE
08-12-2010, 2:53 PM
8gUATkM3WSQ

Might have some trouble getting the smell out though :)

OlderThanDirt
08-12-2010, 2:56 PM
which is my point- If you live down at the border, the Sheriff pretty much expects property owners to be armed. because of the location. I live 3 minutes away from a police station- they can and will get here in that time.

With that in mind, I still have dogs, and I still have guns to defend my family.

Camarillo is almost 200 miles from the border, unless you are considering Oxnard as part of Mexico.

Meplat
08-12-2010, 3:17 PM
OK, I was just using part of your post to make a point. I agree with you. By the time you get to a jury you are in the hole way more than the price of any car I ever owned.

I apologize if my post was personally offensive.

But at a non-personal level the 'let the professionals handle it' mentality is what brought us 911. I would certainly confront the thief, and I would certainly be armed but not brandishing. If he fled I would be happy to be rid of him. If he advanced on me I would do what was needed for my safety. If he just kept going about his wicked business I guess we would just have to wait for the cops together.:D

I am not acquiescing to anything. The last line of my post says that I WILL go out and confront the bad guy. I have done so more that once (I do live in a rural area though).

I am just saying that there may be a price for doing so and you had better factor that into your consideration.

Some people here throw the phrase 'I will just let a jury decide" around pretty casually.

The entire point of my post was that a jury trial is not a cake walk and that you had better realize what you are getting into before you do something. Both in expence and in stress. Consider ALL of the consequences before you act.

That being said, I believe that ships that pass near that area of the world should have deck guns and trained people on board ready to use them. That or the international community should pay for patrols to accompany the ships. I would pay a few cents extra for goods to provide the funding for that.

Believe me, I HATE thieves as much or more than you do; really, I do. I will never give a thief a break.

inbox485
08-12-2010, 3:59 PM
You sound like the shipping executives whos acquiesence has made piracy a thriving business in Africa. Criminals have to have some fear of their victims or things break down real quick. Without the threat of a combative victim they would not even bother to slink in during the dark of night to steel your car, they would just walk up in broad daylight, spit in your face and take it. Oh, wait, some do that now! Welcome to Somalia.:D

I'd say it is a little different. Piracy is much more like forced entry. I'd say anybody that doesn't have a shoot first ask never policy for home intruders just hasn't thought about enough. Somebody stealing a car in your front yard where there is no threat to life or limb is low enough on my meh scale to call 911 and leave it be. Insurance paperwork is less of an issue than even citizen arrest paperwork let alone homicide paperwork. Don't get me wrong, if somebody else wants to deal with that, I'll pitch into their legal fund, but I really don't feel like having my own legal fund over a car.

Effectively it is a choice between being victimized by a private thug for the cost of an insurance deductible or being victimized by a government thug for the cost of legal defense and possible kidnap and imprisonment. To put it plainly, I fear the government backed criminals more than the non-governmental criminals and I don't have the cajones to hold the government backed criminals at gunpoint.

greg36f
08-12-2010, 4:20 PM
OK, I was just using part of your post to make a point. I agree with you. By the time you get to a jury you are in the hole way more than the price of any car I ever owned.

I apologize if my post was personally offensive.

But at a non-personal level the 'let the professionals handle it' mentality is what brought us 911. I would certainly confront the thief, and I would certainly be armed but not brandishing. If he fled I would be happy to be rid of him. If he advanced on me I would do what was needed for my safety. If he just kept going about his wicked business I guess we would just have to wait for the cops together.:D

Your plan is about the best I have heard so far. Kind of covers all the bases. I have responded numerous times to a man with a gun holding a suspect and the reason that it went well was communication between the "good guy" and the police. Before arrival, I had a clear idea what was going on and a clear description of the "good guy". The last time I responded to one of these, the good guy dropped the mag as soon as we arrived and he tossed the gun onto the lawn behind him, not straight down in from of the bad guy (yes, this has happened).

As long as the crime was legit (not, “this guy looked at me wrong, so I held him for you") and the good guy could ARTICULATE WHAT HE DID AND WHY HE DID IT, I cannot imagine hassling the "good guy". I know that I never have.

Also, you cannot hold your daughters boyfriend at gun point if you catch him sneaking out of her bedroom window at 2 AM (yes, this too has happened). Thank god he did not shoot the kid.

As an aside, I have to say that nothing is more frustrating that someone calling to police to report a crime in progress and then scaring the bad guy off. I know that it is your property that it is in danger and not mine, but it really spoils our chance to catch the bad guy. Most of the time we are responding with a K-9 and the chance to catch the bad guy is pretty good of he is still there when we get there.

I guess that that is a choice that you have to make at the time. If the dispatcher tells you that we are right around the corner, try to hold off yelling at the thief (I know, easy to say when it is not my stuff). If we are 20 minutes out, do what you have to do.

MasterYong
08-12-2010, 8:18 PM
I'm sure most of this all depends on where you live. Where I live, most of the LEOs and CLEOs are still "old school".

If officers responded to my home because I called 911 and reported GTA in progress, and officers arrived to find me in my driveway with the perp proned-out at gunpoint- they'd probably give me a freakin medal. At the very least I'd expect to be congratulated.

There's a such thing as officer's discretion.

YMMV.

camsoup
08-12-2010, 8:56 PM
12031 subsection (k)

(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying
of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making
or attempting to make a lawful arrest.

If someone is trying to steal my car, they are committing a crime. I can lawfully make a citizens arrest. I am entitled to use a LOADED firearm to do it.

Is it the safest option? Maybe not, but I'm legally allowed to do it. The police have no duty to protect me, what makes you think they have a duty to respond in time to stop the crime???

Brandishing? Guess I will take my chances on being charged with that one.

gunsmith
08-12-2010, 9:42 PM
what kind of weapon would one draw? I can draw swords pretty good but my artistic ability is slim to none. I prefer to draw smiley faces on criminals, they hate that and its real easy to draw one - even on a squirming criminal. use a sharpie, thats semi permanent.
;-)

UserM4
08-12-2010, 10:13 PM
I dunno the legality of it all but having dealt with law enforcement coming to our business after some burglaries and other misc scuffles, the officers were definitely "on our side" of things. Obviously, if you make a bone head move that has to be put in the reports, you'll pay for it. But we've had to rack our shotgun in a few cases when customers were beating eachother up in our store and stuff, our life wasn't in imminent danger, but when LE arrived, they never cared one bit that we "brandished" our firearms.

tenpercentfirearms
08-12-2010, 11:33 PM
If my child was in the parked car then I would shoot the theif/kidnapper. Kidnapping is a crime that justifies homicide.

Otherwise, no.

Well I changed my mind. I know the management and most of the officers of the Taft PD. No way in hell are they going to arrest me for drawing down on a guy in my car. In fact, some of them would be right disappointed I didn't shoot, pistol whip, or outright just kick the dudes rear end.

Hey, I live in Taft!

Meplat
08-13-2010, 12:17 AM
You must live around here somewhere. It's a lot easyer for us than the LA SF guys.


I'm sure most of this all depends on where you live. Where I live, most of the LEOs and CLEOs are still "old school".

If officers responded to my home because I called 911 and reported GTA in progress, and officers arrived to find me in my driveway with the perp proned-out at gunpoint- they'd probably give me a freakin medal. At the very least I'd expect to be congratulated.

There's a such thing as officer's discretion.

YMMV.

safewaysecurity
08-13-2010, 12:31 AM
if i go to jail for brandishing while someone is stealing my car, i will take my chances with the jury.

In California? You'll be lucky if they give you the death penalty!

Wild Squid
08-13-2010, 3:39 AM
In an ideal world I would be charging out with my tactical AR with light attached and going trigger happy boom-boom-POW and giving them the business. But then I'd be serving 30 to life. CA wants us to be cowards. Say, when are all those lawsuits against the state to incoporate our 2nd A rights supposed to happen? We're Incorporated now right? Or was everyone just bullshatting?

corrupt
08-13-2010, 3:44 AM
In an ideal world I would be charging out with my tactical AR with light attached and going trigger happy boom-boom-POW and giving them the business. But then I'd be serving 30 to life. CA wants us to be cowards. Say, when are all those lawsuits against the state to incoporate our 2nd A rights supposed to happen? We're Incorporated now right? Or was everyone just bullshatting?

lol wut?

Mofo-Kang
08-13-2010, 4:56 AM
Of course with schools and society rejecting concepts of right and wrong for many years now, people lack the moral clarity to make such a judgment. The result is the laws we have, and the opinions here that property is not worth it. Even they, of course, don't really believe that.

Let me assure you, my concepts of right and wrong are quite well-developed. And yes, let me assure you that I feel that nothing I own is worth killing someone for. I *might* use lethal force to prevent someone from taking my gun, simply because I know they'd be likely to use it to threaten or harm someone else. And yes, I "really believe that."


If the Muslims, Chinese, or whomever, wanted to take over would you let them to avoid loss of life. What if you knew for sure they would not hurt anyone if we did not resist? If you would fight, you would simply be killing and dying for property. Ah, so you say no, you would be fighting for a way of life? Exactly my point.

If they're not going to hurt anyone in the process, then no harm would come from them "taking over." You and I could continue to live however we pleased, since they wouldn't harm us for refusing to acknowledge their rule, right? Of course, that's not the case, and so of course that analogy fails.

Tom Gresham
08-13-2010, 6:36 AM
Interesting discussion.

A few thoughts.

1. When you pull your gun, you may well be greatly increasing the danger to yourself. When you have your gun out, there is always the chance someone else will mistake you for the bad guy and shoot you. This could be another good citizen or a cop.

Note: If you are in fear for your life (someone is running at you with a big knife), take your chances at being misidentified and deal with the immediate threat. But, increasing your risk so that you can go save the car which belongs to the insurance company seems like poor decision making.

2. When you leave your home, you no longer can protect those inside the home.

3. Call the police, then call the insurance company, and tell them what happened to THEIR car.

4. Is your car worth $200,000? That's what it could cost you in legal fees.

This is a logics and math problem. Unless your baby is in the car, logics, finances, and safety dictate that you stay put, protect yourself and your family, call the cops, and don't worry about the stuff the bad guys might take.

It doesn't feel right, but it's smart.

Or, you could run out, pull your gun, get shot, spend $200,000, and serve time in jail.

Either way, you'll still have a car.

Nick1236
08-13-2010, 8:27 AM
After reading the majority of these posts it appears to me that a lot of you believe crime does pay. What happen to the time when you were allowed to shoot someone for stealing your property? Criminals shouldn't be rewarded for committing a crime, they should be punished. Stiff punishments deter others from doing the same. Society as a whole may as well turn in their "man card", the way I see it we're all slowly turning into women.

a1c
08-13-2010, 8:57 AM
After reading the majority of these posts it appears to me that a lot of you believe crime does pay. What happen to the time when you were allowed to shoot someone for stealing your property? Criminals shouldn't be rewarded for committing a crime, they should be punished. Stiff punishments deter others from doing the same. Society as a whole may as well turn in their "man card", the way I see it we're all slowly turning into women.

Just because we live in the real world doesn't mean we believe crime does pay.

Look, shoot at car thieves if you want to. I just hope my donations to the Calguns Foundation won't go to your defense. Because unless they are threatening your life, you are not justified. Just LoJack your car, call 911, and if you feel like it, go outside with your gun and tell them to get the hell out because you're armed and the police is coming - I'm about 95% certain they will get the hell out really fast. But be careful - things don't always go as well as they do in movies for the good guys.

Glock22Fan
08-13-2010, 9:04 AM
Just because we live in the real world doesn't mean we believe crime does pay.

Look, shoot at car thieves if you want to. I just hope my donations to the Calguns Foundation won't go to your defense. Because unless they are threatening your life, you are not justified. Just LoJack your car, call 911, and if you feel like it, go outside with your gun and tell them to get the hell out because you're armed and the police is coming - I'm about 95% certain they will get the hell out really fast. But be careful - things don't always go as well as they do in movies for the good guys.

Agreed. Except that I wouldn't go outside, I'd shout from behind cover.

Maestro Pistolero
08-13-2010, 9:09 AM
Look, shoot at car thieves if you want to.The OP said draw a weapon, not go out shooting. At that point it is the thief's behavior that controls his fate. Either leave, get arrested, or attack and be shot.

At a minimum, I think a face full of pepper spray is in order, just for the aggravation of it all (and to soften him up a bit) It's hard to resist or attack when you can't friggin' see.

Nick1236
08-13-2010, 9:12 AM
My point is, if one was able to shoot and kill a criminal for stealing property legally, how many criminals would take the risk?

Just because we live in the real world doesn't mean we believe crime does pay.

Look, shoot at car thieves if you want to. I just hope my donations to the Calguns Foundation won't go to your defense. Because unless they are threatening your life, you are not justified. Just LoJack your car, call 911, and if you feel like it, go outside with your gun and tell them to get the hell out because you're armed and the police is coming - I'm about 95% certain they will get the hell out really fast. But be careful - things don't always go as well as they do in movies for the good guys.

cmaynes
08-13-2010, 9:15 AM
After reading the majority of these posts it appears to me that a lot of you believe crime does pay. What happen to the time when you were allowed to shoot someone for stealing your property? Criminals shouldn't be rewarded for committing a crime, they should be punished. Stiff punishments deter others from doing the same. Society as a whole may as well turn in their "man card", the way I see it we're all slowly turning into women.

Are you Larry Vickers? can you shoot 100% in all conditions? What if someone gets injured or killed because you missed? is that worth it for something that can be replaced? What if it happened to be a family member who was your criminal.... The idea of using terminal force to protect life is pretty specific. If saving life is not the issue, it isnt worth killing someone over it. There is no man-card at play here- unless a man-card is bring used to identify violent egotism.

a1c
08-13-2010, 9:19 AM
My point is, if one was able to shoot and kill a criminal for stealing property legally, how many criminals would take the risk?

I'm pretty sure there would still be plenty of criminals. Look at Third World nearly lawless countries. They still have a pretty high crime rate.

Your point is understood, but irrelevant, since we're discussing the real world.

Doheny
08-13-2010, 9:25 AM
12031 subsection (k)

(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying
of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making
or attempting to make a lawful arrest.

If someone is trying to steal my car, they are committing a crime. I can lawfully make a citizens arrest. I am entitled to use a LOADED firearm to do it.

What are you going to do when he laughs at you and continues to break into/steal your car? Shoot him?

gunn
08-13-2010, 9:26 AM
If someone is jacking my car outside my house and my wife is safely inside with me, the first item I would grab would be my SLR camera and/or my point & shoot cam's video mode. If you give pics to the cops, it would make it just that much harder to say "I'm sorry, we couldn't find these perps".


Now, if the perps see me and decide they want to "destroy the evidence" (i.e: stomp me), they are now threatening my life and there's always the trusty Mossberg. Being in SF, the last thing I would want to trot out is any kind of EBR.

Nick1236
08-13-2010, 9:31 AM
I'm pretty sure there would still be plenty of criminals. Look at Third World nearly lawless countries. They still have a pretty high crime rate.

Your point is understood, but irrelevant, since we're discussing the real world.


Yes, but in most third world countries firearms are not freely available to the general public. Usually only the criminals in third world countries have access to firearms. They're crime rate is still high because the public has no way to defend themselves, granted a wood stick may provide protection from another stick, but certainly not a firearm.

jazman
08-13-2010, 10:54 AM
What are you going to do when he laughs at you and continues to break into/steal your car? Shoot him?

This. I drive what people consider to be a pretty nice car, but it (and no car to me) is not worth killing someone for.

Maestro Pistolero
08-13-2010, 10:57 AM
Are you Larry Vickers? can you shoot 100% in all conditions? What if someone gets injured or killed because you missed? is that worth it for something that can be replaced? What if it happened to be a family member who was your criminal.... The idea of using terminal force to protect life is pretty specific. If saving life is not the issue, it isnt worth killing someone over it. There is no man-card at play here- unless a man-card is bring used to identify violent egotism.

Good lord! I assume you meant "being used to identify violent egotism" (whatever that means). But in any case, I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with man-cards (whatever those are) or egotism.

It is about whether a civilian has a right to oppose criminal behavior according to is own real-time judgement, or not.

I submit that they do. And the law supports that notion. But if you don't have the cajones or the will, then by all means, go cower in your house. That is also your right.

But please don't presume to characterize lawful civil behavior as reckless endangerment, or as irresponsible vigilanteism, because there is a huge difference.

Are you Larry Vickers?

Most cops fall far short of the abilities of Larry Vickers, but they are still considered a good enough calculated risk to send out into the world with an arsenal of weapons at their disposal. There is nothing magical about police training or intelligence that elevates them above the average gun enthusiast in terms of cognitive ability or decision making under stress. In fact a lot of cops I know are so stressed out, their decision-making ability might well warrant some scrutiny.

Once again, the point of confronting the thief with a firearm is that confronting criminals in the act of their crime is inherently dangerous, as is a felony hot-stop when conducted by police. It is reasonable to assume that the criminal may attack you with lethal force. If he does, you are justified in responding accordingly.

The point is not to be judge, jury, and executioner. The point is to lawfully oppose a criminal act, and protect your property, while using only as much force as necessary to prevent your own loss of life or limb in the process. Again, it is the criminal's behavior, not yours that determines his fate.

Oh, and have something BESIDES your gun handy. Pepper spray is the least alternative you should have at the ready. If he charges you while he's unarmed, have a plan besides shooting him. it is your responsibility to escalate according to the level of threat. You better think about it before-hand. I like to have three options. A big-*** flashlight, pepper spray and a gun make a nice trio.

If he's sitting in your car with ignition wires dangling, then he makes a nice immobile target for a blast of pepper spray. Keep him in the car. If he tries to get out, kick the door shut on him. Give him commands, and make sure he does what you tell him. WATCH his hands.

inbox485
08-13-2010, 11:28 AM
Let me spell it out one more time for the geniuses that seem to have functional typing skills yet lack the ability to read.

Under CA law, homicide IS justified in the resistance of the commission of any felony. That means if you see somebody committing a felony, and you really feel like it, you can confront them with lethal force to get them to stop. Since the word resist is used, that means you can't use more force than is necessary to stop the crime in progress. But if it comes down to it and you shoot for the sole purpose of stopping the felony in progress (even if it is a property only crime) and there was no lesser force option available to you, the letter of the law is on your side.

Glock22Fan
08-13-2010, 12:23 PM
Let me spell it out one more time for the geniuses that seem to have functional typing skills yet lack the ability to read.

Under CA law, homicide IS justified in the resistance of the commission of any felony. That means if you see somebody committing a felony, and you really feel like it, you can confront them with lethal force to get them to stop. Since the word resist is used, that means you can't use more force than is necessary to stop the crime in progress. But if it comes down to it and you shoot for the sole purpose of stopping the felony in progress (even if it is a property only crime) and there was no lesser force option available to you, the letter of the law is on your side.

I have no problem with the legality, just the wisdom. These days, perps shoot back. It is not at all unlikely that he could shoot first. Is it worth being dead, just to avoid losing your man card?

Sudaev
08-13-2010, 12:27 PM
becuase of interpretation of the laws- If you are in the unincorporated county areas, where the response times are longer, grace is abundant- if that is attempted in Midtown LA it is a different thing entirely.

The law is the law, and it does not matter what the response time of the police is assumed to be. Actually in L.A. city response time may be quite long.

inbox485
08-13-2010, 12:54 PM
I have no problem with the legality, just the wisdom. These days, perps shoot back. It is not at all unlikely that he could shoot first. Is it worth being dead, just to avoid losing your man card?

There was a bunch of the "but it's illegal to defend property" types cropping up again. I put them in the same category as the "hi-cap mags are illegal" and "a rifle with that much black plastic must be illegal" crowd. People that have no problem telling you something is illegal but couldn't point to the law to save their lives get old.

As for the wisdom, I'm with you. There are plenty of tax paid civil servants that get every benefit of the doubt, free legal representation, free medical care, and all sorts of stuff to cover them if a confrontation goes less than optimal. They can do their thing, I'll file a few pieces of paper with my insurance company and drive a rental for a few days while they sort it out.

Maestro Pistolero
08-13-2010, 1:06 PM
Is it worth being dead, just to avoid losing your man card?A few of you refer to this 'man-card' thing as if it's a bad thing. If by 'man-card' you mean a sense of human dignity and justice, and a willingness to confront evil regardless of fear, especially when it comes knocking at your doorstep, then I guess I have a man-card.

And I guess the answer would be no, I am not willing to lose it. By the way, it isn't just a man-thing. Women get to join, too.

Maestro Pistolero
08-13-2010, 1:20 PM
I just figured out what really bugs me about the whole man-card characterization. It totally reeks of the the repeated, obsessive phallic references that the antis like to make whenever they are attempting to ridicule a citizen for daring to exercise his right to bear.

Seeing that mindset on display here is nauseating.

inbox485
08-13-2010, 1:40 PM
I just figured out what really bugs me about the whole man-card characterization. It totally reeks of the the repeated, obsessive phallic references that the antis like to make whenever they are attempting to ridicule a citizen for daring to exercise his right to bear.

Seeing that mindset on display here is nauseating.

Yeah. I won't make any inferences to the one who brought the term man card to a discussion like this, but it was out of place IMO. This discussion had two parts:

The legality
The prudence


The legality is black and white. The prudence is very personal. Every human being has a greater right to their property than a thief has right to life while stealing that property. But since the government is quiet likely to cause more harm to the victim than the original crime, there is a practicality to deciding which victimization you would rather deal with. Whipping out phallic references was inappropriate.

Maestro Pistolero
08-13-2010, 1:45 PM
Whipping out phallic references was inappropriate.
Thanks for concurring. To be fair, the man-card reference wasn't quite phallic, but it wasn't far off, either.

kozumasbullitt
08-13-2010, 1:47 PM
When I was about 16 I was home with 2 of my sisters and my mother. We lived in an older house so there is always creeks when nightfall comes but one of my sisters insisted that someone was on the roof. My mom was not very proficient with a firearm so she gave me her revolver and went outside with me to check out the situation. I climbed up on a wall to find a man on the roof and he had a long screwdriver, I told him I would kill him if he didn't drop the screwdriver and slowly climb off the roof. In the meantime one of the sisters had pushed the house alarm police button and confirmed with the alarm company that we needed the police. I held the perp at gunpoint for about an hour (fast for police I know considering ny father was a high ranking member of that department away on duty). When the police came they drew their firearms on me and instructed me to put the gun I had down and get down so I laid the gun on my mom's car hood and laid in the empty space in our driveway. I and the perp were cuffed and my mom was really flustered trying to explain what happened in English but German comes out when she is panicking. It took another hour or so to sort things out but I was let free, the gun was handed over to my mother and the police had my mom look over some paperwork. The man on the roof was planning to burglerize our neighbors who were out of town but I never understood why he was on our roof but to complete my story, not only did I brandish a firearm to stop a crime I was also a minor and nothing negative ever resulted from it.

Ps- I have been shooting since I was about 8 with my father and was/am very proficient with a firearm.

Glock22Fan
08-13-2010, 1:49 PM
I just figured out what really bugs me about the whole man-card characterization. It totally reeks of the the repeated, obsessive phallic references that the antis like to make whenever they are attempting to ridicule a citizen for daring to exercise his right to bear.

Seeing that mindset on display here is nauseating.

I used it in a sort of facetious way. I think it is pretty stupid too.

I'd like to think I'd stand up for myself when and if I ever needed to, but I'd avoid it if possible. I am sufficiently secure that taunts about losing my "man card" because I don't want to get into a shooting match over my car (possible with an unseen accomplice hiding in the bushes) don't worry me one bit.

thayne
08-13-2010, 1:51 PM
When I was about 16 I was home with 2 of my sisters and my mother. We lived in an older house so there is always creeks when nightfall comes but one of my sisters insisted that someone was on the roof. My mom was not very proficient with a firearm so she gave me her revolver and went outside with me to check out the situation. I climbed up on a wall to find a man on the roof and he had a long screwdriver, I told him I would kill him if he didn't drop the screwdriver and slowly climb off the roof. In the meantime one of the sisters had pushed the house alarm police button and confirmed with the alarm company that we needed the police. I held the perp at gunpoint for about an hour (fast for police I know considering ny father was a high ranking member of that department away on duty). When the police came they drew their firearms on me and instructed me to put the gun I had down and get down so I laid the gun on my mom's car hood and laid in the empty space in our driveway. I and the perp were cuffed and my mom was really flustered trying to explain what happened in English but German comes out when she is panicking. It took another hour or so to sort things out but I was let free, the gun was handed over to my mother and the police had my mom look over some paperwork. The man on the roof was planning to burglerize our neighbors who were out of town but I never understood why he was on our roof but to complete my story, not only did I brandish a firearm to stop a crime I was also a minor and nothing negative ever resulted from it.

Ps- I have been shooting since I was about 8 with my father and was/am very proficient with a firearm.
Looks like the burglar got the wrong house? LOL nice

socal2310
08-13-2010, 9:31 PM
You might want to know that that case is distinguished from the OP's case: the care was in a GATED community and NOT open to the public and therefore private property where an individual owner there can carry loaded. The OP's scenario is an open front yard which, being easily accessed by the public because of the lack of barriers to ingress, is not private property for the purposes of being able to carry loaded per the PC. Big difference.

I am aware of the fact that it was a gated community (I do happen to live in the same town of < 70k people), but as was noted by someone else there is an exemption in the P.C. for circumstances such as this. More importantly, under these circumstances, police are going to treat this as a public location.

As I believe I mentioned earlier, police departments who follow P.O.S.T. standards KNOW the law on this point, it's covered fairly extensively under laws of arrest.

Ryan

cmaynes
08-14-2010, 1:35 AM
Camarillo is almost 200 miles from the border, unless you are considering Oxnard as part of Mexico.

I didnt imply that it was close to the border- and it depends on how far away from help you are- the further you are, the more reasonable carrying a gun, especially on your own property becomes.

Meplat
08-14-2010, 1:47 AM
go outside with your gun and tell them to get the hell out because you're armed and the police is coming - I'm about 95% certain they will get the hell out really fast. But be careful - things don't always go as well as they do in movies for the good guys.

I'm not even 50% sure. You had better have a plan B. Been there, done that, got the bullet wound.

vincewarde
08-14-2010, 1:11 PM
...... is worth killing someone over. Not only will I loose more in legal fees than it is worth, I would then have to live with having taken a life. Trust me, it will not be as easy as you think to deal with.

My family is another matter completely. I will do anything I have to do to protect them - including ending a threat with deadly force.

Rob454
08-14-2010, 1:17 PM
back in the day if you stole a mans horse you got hung for being a horse thief. IMO a car is nothing more than a mans horse. And last time I checked the bill of rights was still in effect back then as they are now more then than now. but either way i am willing to bet if you started hangin people for theft you will see less theft. I mean what is car theft dropped to now misdemeanor ir is it still a felony.

What pisses me off is these aholes who steal a car and then try to get away from the cops and completely destroy the car while trying to get away. I guess since its not their car who really cares. Who cares how the guy or lady is gonna get to work the next day, feed the family or go look for work. Bah who cares I got to have my fun and get chased by the cops yo. We have been conditioned to start seeing these examples of violence and theft as less and less as a real crime.. I mean its just a stolen car its not like he killed someone.:rolleyes:

I caught a guy trying to steal my truck once. I got stabbed in the hand by the screwdriver he was carrying and I managed to break his wrist. other than that I woudl still confront anyone trying to steal my car. I may not be showing a gun but that wont mean I dont have one or quick access to one.

Meplat
08-14-2010, 1:47 PM
What are you going to do when he laughs at you and continues to break into/steal your car? Shoot him?

In post #166 I sead: But at a non-personal level the 'let the professionals handle it' mentality is what brought us 911. I would certainly confront the thief, and I would certainly be armed but not brandishing. If he fled I would be happy to be rid of him. If he advanced on me I would do what was needed for my safety. If he just kept going about his wicked business I guess we would just have to wait for the cops together.

Meplat
08-14-2010, 2:02 PM
Is it worth being dead, just to avoid losing your man card?

Yes! But I do not subscribe to the same definition of 'man card' that most who use that term here do.

But then I am old and have little to lose. The ‘man card’ term that gets bandied about here becomes mildly obnoxious when applied with seriousness rather than humor. My definition of a man is one who takes care of women and children. And yes, I am willing die to do that if necessary.

Maestro Pistolero
08-14-2010, 2:37 PM
What are you going to do when he laughs at you and continues to break into/steal your car? Shoot him?

1. Familiarize yourself with the escalation of force.
2. Have something besides a gun
3. Vaporized Hot sauce
4. Whack a Mole.
5. Gee, how long before your retinas burn out with 200 lumens of led light blasting into them?
6. You have a gun? I guess you are even more stupid than you look.

Bryan.40
08-14-2010, 2:44 PM
Just be very careful when drawing your weapon.
Even if someone is trying to steal your car, one would think he criminal himself is not within range to threaten you directly.
Your life in that case is clearly not in danger.
If he was in fact armed, it seems that the first one to draw is usually the one that takes the blame.

turbosbox
08-14-2010, 3:02 PM
Your plan is about the best I have heard so far. Kind of covers all the bases. I have responded numerous times to a man with a gun holding a suspect and the reason that it went well was communication between the "good guy" and the police. Before arrival, I had a clear idea what was going on and a clear description of the "good guy". The last time I responded to one of these, the good guy dropped the mag as soon as we arrived and he tossed the gun onto the lawn behind him, not straight down in from of the bad guy (yes, this has happened).

As long as the crime was legit (not, “this guy looked at me wrong, so I held him for you") and the good guy could ARTICULATE WHAT HE DID AND WHY HE DID IT, I cannot imagine hassling the "good guy". I know that I never have.

Also, you cannot hold your daughters boyfriend at gun point if you catch him sneaking out of her bedroom window at 2 AM (yes, this too has happened). Thank god he did not shoot the kid.

As an aside, I have to say that nothing is more frustrating that someone calling to police to report a crime in progress and then scaring the bad guy off. I know that it is your property that it is in danger and not mine, but it really spoils our chance to catch the bad guy. Most of the time we are responding with a K-9 and the chance to catch the bad guy is pretty good of he is still there when we get there.

I guess that that is a choice that you have to make at the time. If the dispatcher tells you that we are right around the corner, try to hold off yelling at the thief (I know, easy to say when it is not my stuff). If we are 20 minutes out, do what you have to do.

And that's what the cops did to me not long ago when I responded to a breaking and entering-theft on my property not long ago. Unfortunately the local police policy is not to respond to alarms, so we are left to either defend ourselves and property or not. I choose the former. As soon as I saw the door broken in I was on 911. "...yes, there is a gun....uhhhh,...it is in my right hand, loaded...".
The first police responder wasn't happy that I responded with a gun, we had a discussion on that point. It ended with my getting my pistol back.
I DID comply completely with the instructions of the cops, and did not give them attitude except my right to respond with a gun to the situation. They may be technically correct in a person having a loaded gun outside, or not??
Seems like above quote and my experience show at least sometimes if the good guy was not way out of line, it goes ok. My gun was registered, I'm not a criminal, I did not have it near me (not waving it around wildly) when the police actually arrived 15min after the call. Unfortunately I'm a regular victim of crime. We do what we can to minimize it, but it isn't in our power to arrest all the methheads and keep them in prison. We can either be cowards or defend ourselves and our property. It's a personal decision.
I would encourage people to only respond with a gun for the intention of self defense until the police arrive on scene.

Meplat
08-14-2010, 5:14 PM
If he was in fact armed, it seems that the first one to draw is usually the one that takes the blame.

Too many western movies?

2Bear
08-14-2010, 8:29 PM
Been there, done that, got the bullet wound.

Classic.

Would love to see how Kali would react to this South African vehicle anti-theft / carjack solution...

fDrzMGdYWZc

Droc101
08-16-2010, 10:09 AM
Not the exact situation that this thread is talking about but it is about a guy confronting someone with a loaded firearm on his private property because he feared for the safety of his belongings. http://www.calccw.com/Forums/legal/539-people-v-overturf-carrying-private-property-outdoors.html

inbox485
08-19-2010, 1:59 PM
If he charges you while unarmed and you have a gun pointed at him, I think its pretty safe to assume he's not coming in for a cuddle. He obviously thinks you won't pull the trigger, so he's going to take the weapon from you; just like he saw in every hollywood scene that has desensitized him to the reality of crime and its permanent consequences.

I've never been in a situation like that, but a crazy/sociopathic person you just witnessed committing a crime is probably not planning on taking your gun so he can run away, or he would have turned tail at the start. Any reasonable person could then presume that they are about to be murdered with their own firearm. Officers shoot unarmed people charging them all the time. It's gonna look bad, but how can any reasonable person deny that you were in fear for your life when you reacted to his aggressive behavior? What else could the suspect have been trying to achieve with that specific action?

There's a guy in AZ that can tell you all about that. But I doubt he would trade years in prison for years in a pine box. But, I'll tell you what I would trade years in prison for: my effin car

corrupt
08-19-2010, 6:54 PM
If he charges you while unarmed and you have a gun pointed at him, I think its pretty safe to assume he's not coming in for a cuddle. He obviously thinks you won't pull the trigger, so he's going to take the weapon from you; just like he saw in every hollywood scene that has desensitized him to the reality of crime and its permanent consequences.

I've never been in a situation like that, but a crazy/sociopathic person you just witnessed committing a crime is probably not planning on taking your gun so he can run away, or he would have turned tail at the start. Any reasonable person could then presume that they are about to be murdered with their own firearm. Officers shoot unarmed people charging them all the time. It's gonna look bad, but how can any reasonable person deny that you were in fear for your life when you reacted to his aggressive behavior? What else could the suspect have been trying to achieve with that specific action?

Mr. Trainwrecker saw his vehicle being tampered with, ran out of his house and killed an unarmed man. This is a man with minimal firearms training at best. He's never before been in a situation like this, as he said earlier, so what made him think that he could suddenly assume the role of a Police Officer? We are here to determine if he is guilty of murder. What are the facts? He killed an unarmed man with a gun. What do you think you might do if you saw someone tampering with your vehicle? A reasonable person would probably call the police and not risk anyone's life for a car, but Mr. Trainwrecker went out of his way to grab his gun from upstairs, came out of the house and killed someone because he thought his radio was more important than a human life. Ask yourself this: does this person value human life?

I Am Not A Lawyer (no kidding, right), I just parrot things ^^^^ I heard off TV... but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand how a DA could make you look really bad in front of a jury. And come on, escalation of force, not shooting people if you don't have to, etc.. those are good things.

Meplat
08-19-2010, 8:13 PM
I've never been in a situation like that, but a crazy/sociopathic person you just witnessed committing a crime is probably not planning on taking your gun so he can run away, or he would have turned tail at the start. Any reasonable person could then presume that they are about to be murdered with their own firearm. Officers shoot unarmed people charging them all the time. It's gonna look bad, but how can any reasonable person deny that you were in fear for your life when you reacted to his aggressive behavior? What else could the suspect have been trying to achieve with that specific action?

The problem is they don't charge from a distance. They come slowly, apologizing, cajoling, even begging, all the while inching closer. When he gets to the point that he is close enough that you are afraid he may be within springing distance but may be to far away fore a justifiable shoot; haw fast is he, how fast am I? That's when you start wishing you had stayed in the house. You have to stand there and decide if you are going to shoot some guy that has his palms out telling you about his hungry kids, or take the chance that in the next seconds he will have your gun, you'll be dead and nothing will stand between him and your family.

You don't want to play that game. You pick the distance. If he starts to close that distance in any way tell him to get the hell out of there or you will shoot, way before he gets anywhere near your comfort zone. If he still advances, stop him.

Nate
08-19-2010, 10:52 PM
just sneak up behind the car thief and hit him with a bat. Then go back to bed. Problem solved. Whats the thief going to say, "Officer, as I was breaking into the car, someone hit me from behind."

Zdiddy
08-20-2010, 12:03 AM
I thought it was illeagl to film in a public place without getting permision or letting them know they were under survailance?

E Pluribus Unum
08-20-2010, 1:08 AM
I thought it was illeagl to film in a public place without getting permision or letting them know they were under survailance?

It is illegal to covertly record someone when there is a reasonable expectation of privacy.

1) There is no expectation of privacy in public.
2) A concealed voice recorder is one thing. If I am holding a video camera, it is assumed you know you are being recorded. Nothing requires PERMISSION, only notification. Openly holding a video camera is enough even in a private area.

Crazed_SS
08-20-2010, 10:33 AM
Saw some guy try this stunt on COPS a year or two ago..

He thought he saw someone breaking into his neighbor's car, so he went outside with a loaded shotgun. Neighbors called the cops because there was a guy outside pointing a loaded shotgun at someone.

San Diego Sheriff's deputies show up, break out the AR-15s and prone out the shotgun-wielding guy and get everyone's story. Shotgun guy ends up getting arrested for carrying a loaded gun in a public place.

Funny thing was the guy breaking into the neighbor's truck was actually getting into his own truck.

FatalKitty
08-20-2010, 11:01 AM
What are you going to do when he laughs at you and continues to break into/steal your car? Shoot him?

this always makes me laugh.
first off... I would never advocate the use of deadly force for a non-violent crime.

but what makes you think a cop shouting "POLICE! FREEZE!" while holding a gun is going to stop a criminal from doing anything either?
I mean, cops don't shoot people for stealing cars, it's not their job.

People that commit crimes like this under cover of darkness are cowards, they have stooped so low because they are cowards, afraid to face the real world and apply themselves in a way that benefits society.
Startling them at gunpoint while they are busy trying to jimmy a door lock is a sure fire way to get them to run. and they probably won't be coming back, knowing that someone out there is not afraid of their stupidity.

you think they are going to take a chance that you are more worried about a lawsuit than they are? think they are going to just say "meh... he won't shoot me, there is a ton of paperwork associated with that and they probably don't want to live with ending the life of a scumbag ******* like myself.... meh, I'm just going to keep going about my business"

no... it'll probably be something like "OH ****... crazy redneck! i'm outta here!"

Maestro Pistolero
08-20-2010, 12:05 PM
this always makes me laugh.
first off... I would never advocate the use of deadly force for a non-violent crime.

but what makes you think a cop shouting "POLICE! FREEZE!" while holding a gun is going to stop a criminal from doing anything either?
I mean, cops don't shoot people for stealing cars, it's not their job.

People that commit crimes like this under cover of darkness are cowards, they have stooped so low because they are cowards, afraid to face the real world and apply themselves in a way that benefits society.
Startling them at gunpoint while they are busy trying to jimmy a door lock is a sure fire way to get them to run. and they probably won't be coming back, knowing that someone out there is not afraid of their stupidity.

you think they are going to take a chance that you are more worried about a lawsuit than they are? think they are going to just say "meh... he won't shoot me, there is a ton of paperwork associated with that and they probably don't want to live with ending the life of a scumbag ******* like myself.... meh, I'm just going to keep going about my business"

no... it'll probably be something like "OH ****... crazy redneck! i'm outta here!"
Probably accurate. I just want to reiterate re: the bolded part. By confronting a car thief armed, you are not ready with deadly force because he is stealing the car. You're armed because, although it is your right to confornt and protect your property, it is inherently dangerous, and you have reason to believe you may be attacked for lawfully confronting the criminal. This is why police carry weapons. Not so they can be judge, jury and executioner, it's to defend against violent resistance to lawful confrontation. Understand the difference?

ap3572001
08-20-2010, 12:22 PM
In California, if you were to awaken in the middle of the night and observe someone trying to steal your parked car, would you be legally justified by going outside with a loaded firearm to confront them?

Or would this be considered an illegal act of brandishing a weapon?

If You see someone trying to steel Your parked car and while You try to stop them form doing it they try to kill You or harm You , You have a right to defend Yourself with or without a firearm.

Glock22Fan
08-20-2010, 12:32 PM
If You see someone trying to steel Your parked car and while You try to stop them form doing it they try to kill You or harm You , You have a right to defend Yourself with or without a firearm.

I think we have covered this 225 times over, but there's still a question of:

Is It Wise?

After all, we have the right to defend ourselves with lethal force if someone tried to kill us because we tried to stop them stamping on insects - but, come on now . . . .

Just depends upon whether your car is worth more to you than the possibility that the thief, or his accomplice, might succeed in killing you.

hnoppenberger
08-20-2010, 12:37 PM
In Texas you can kill him where he stands. This is good for society. Our laws are wrong.

QuarterBoreGunner
08-20-2010, 12:42 PM
^Wow... just, wow.

Zdiddy
08-20-2010, 12:43 PM
if they y do end up taking your car doesn't it have to be gone for 30 days to be able to recover any money from the insurance? Let's say on the 28th day they recover most of the car and the insurance deems a salvage car and the damage done doesn't exceed a total loss claim. Would anyone want the car back? You wouldn't get its proper value if you sold it due to the salvage title and who knows how the crook drove the car during that time.

cmichini
08-20-2010, 12:51 PM
... And last time I checked the bill of rights was still in effect back...

Unfortunately you're partly right. The bill of rights is still in effect... in America. We however, are NOT in America. We are in the People's Republik of Kalifornia. Only criminals, celberities and politicians have rights. The remainder are the tax funding serfs and should feel happy to be such, so they say.

QuarterBoreGunner
08-20-2010, 12:54 PM
if they y do end up taking your car doesn't it have to be gone for 30 days to be able to recover any money from the insurance? Let's say on the 28th day they recover most of the car and the insurance deems a salvage car and the damage done doesn't exceed a total loss claim. Would anyone want the car back? You wouldn't get its proper value if you sold it due to the salvage title and who knows how the crook drove the car during that time.

Huh?

Lyte-
08-20-2010, 1:51 PM
They drill this into you in every single Cali CCW course I've ever attended; you MUST be in fear of imminent death or great physical harm before any (one more time) ANY type of lethal force is deployed, displayed, pulled or whatever. Anything else is brandishing and you run the risk of the dreaded LEO response to "MAN WITH A GUN" call.

Property can be replaced.

So question.

I walked outside once to find a 6'+ 300+ man fondling my Motorcycle once. By that i mean hands on the handle bars leaned over inspecting my ignition.

When I questioned what he was doing he turned to me (I am a female in case you didn't know) and actually did make seem to change his body language to indicate that he was planning to intimidate me faced me. I believe he was actually about to come in my direction until i pulled the G17 out my pocket and held it down at my side (blocking anyone else from seeing what I was holding unless they were inside the house). At this time the gentleman's body language changed and he focused on my hand and made up some BS excuse about he thought it was for sale and quickly left my drive way.

At the point in which I "brandished" my weapon I was in fact "in fear for my life or grave physical harm" by someone significately larger then I am am, so by definition wouldn't I be in compliance with the law?

QuarterBoreGunner
08-20-2010, 2:19 PM
At the point in which I "brandished" my weapon I was in fact "in fear for my life or grave physical harm" by someone significately larger then I am am, so by definition wouldn't I be in compliance with the law?

First and foremost, I am not LEO, a lawyer, etc etc.

But, in the circumstance you described, I'd say you were perfectly in the right.

One of the things that is also drilled into you during CCW class is that the moment you choose to engage in a confrontation and not back-off, retreat if possible, de-escalate, what have you, AND then use deadly force, you are in a very difficult situation to defend.

Since you made the choice to put yourself into the situation when you had a chance to back away, you may very well be liable.

But let's say something like the situation you describe, you have a firearm on your person on your own property, as is your absolute right, and you walk out to your driveway and surprise someone breaking into your vehicle AND then they make aggressive moves toward you, I'd say you're justified in displaying your weapon.

Again, this is just me, so there you go.

inbox485
08-20-2010, 2:35 PM
First and foremost, I am not LEO, a lawyer, etc etc.

But, in the circumstance you described, I'd say you were perfectly in the right.

One of the things that is also drilled into you during CCW class is that the moment you choose to engage in a confrontation and not back-off, retreat if possible, de-escalate, what have you, AND then use deadly force, you are in a very difficult situation to defend.

Since you made the choice to put yourself into the situation when you had a chance to back away, you may very well be liable.

But let's say something like the situation you describe, you have a firearm on your person on your own property, as is your absolute right, and you walk out to your driveway and surprise someone breaking into your vehicle AND then they make aggressive moves toward you, I'd say you're justified in displaying your weapon.

Again, this is just me, so there you go.

A lot of the things in CCW classes are about as relevant to the law as the DOJ's famous firearms law summary. They talk about the law, throw in some generalizations and some plain ole BS FUD, but never seem to get around to actually reading the black and white stuff in the actual laws.

Being on her own property would change the effect that 12025 and 12031 would have on her possession of a loaded handgun, but would have absolutely no bearing on her use of the handgun. CA law says that homicide is justified in the resistance of any felony. So if she ended up shooting the guy if he charged at her or was able to start the bike and tried to flee, it wouldn't matter if the DA tried to argue that she tried to defend property or life or that she failed to retreat. CA law has no duty to retreat and the law would be explicitly on her side.

Shiboleth
08-22-2010, 3:27 AM
CA law says that homicide is justified in the resistance of any felony.

Where exactly is this? I understand the displaying of a weapon in making a citizen's arrest is lawful, but i haven't seen anything relating to actually discharging the weapon in said arrest. The only justification i'm aware of for homicide, is in self-defense.

Shiboleth
08-22-2010, 3:30 AM
Most of the discussion about brandishing is directed at handguns, how does it apply to a long gun? You can have a handgun on your person without it being brandished, but a long gun cannot be holstered.

javalos
08-22-2010, 8:35 AM
Call 911, because of the pro-criminal laws in California by liberals and enforced by police, you'll only go to jail.

The Director
08-22-2010, 9:11 AM
Lets look at the PC first.
One can perform a lawful arrest for the above reasons.

You can carry a loaded firearm for the reasons above, including while conducting a lawful arrest.

Justifiable homicide conditions when conducting a lawful arrest/apprehension.

Don't take extremely unordianry risks with your safety or life. Use your own guidance to determine if you feel it is worth the risk. IANAL, and this is only my understanding of the wording of PC, and does not include case law interpretations.


Okay, this right here is absolutely what I had in mind. I've taken PC832 (both modules) as well, so I know how to effect an arrest, and I also know what constitutes unlawful use of force.

If someone is stealing my car out of my driveway, I absolutely will attempt to arrest them at gunpoint. Absolutely!

A felony is being committed in my presence, people. That gives me just as much right and power to arrest as ANY LEO....it's just that I have more exposure to civil liability, is all.

Make sure it's a good arrest.

The Director
08-22-2010, 9:12 AM
A lot of the things in CCW classes are about as relevant to the law as the DOJ's famous firearms law summary. They talk about the law, throw in some generalizations and some plain ole BS FUD, but never seem to get around to actually reading the black and white stuff in the actual laws.

Being on her own property would change the effect that 12025 and 12031 would have on her possession of a loaded handgun, but would have absolutely no bearing on her use of the handgun. CA law says that homicide is justified in the resistance of any felony. So if she ended up shooting the guy if he charged at her or was able to start the bike and tried to flee, it wouldn't matter if the DA tried to argue that she tried to defend property or life or that she failed to retreat. CA law has no duty to retreat and the law would be explicitly on her side.

Exactly. A CCW course is all about mitigating liability. Take PC832 Modules I and II as well and REALLY find out about the continuum of force, it's applicability to your situation, and when it is lawful to escalate to a deadly level.

inbox485
08-22-2010, 8:24 PM
Where exactly is this? I understand the displaying of a weapon in making a citizen's arrest is lawful, but i haven't seen anything relating to actually discharging the weapon in said arrest. The only justification i'm aware of for homicide, is in self-defense.

CA PC 197

The key word in that section is resist. Meaning if less force could have stopped the felony than the homicide was not justified. Read the law. It is an eye opener for people that assume that all areas of CA law have been hippified. It certainly give more latitude than I'd ever make use of.

For your convenience:

Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.

Shiboleth
08-22-2010, 9:02 PM
Ok thank you.

Agent Orange
08-22-2010, 9:38 PM
Whipping out phallic references was inappropriate.

Just felt that needed repeating ;)