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View Full Version : Degrees of separation on high capacity mags.


misterjake
08-10-2010, 4:03 PM
Allright Calgunners,

How much of the high capacity mag has to be disassembled in order to be legal?

Does it have to be completely disassembled?

Reason being, I have a BB AR that I'm just about to finish, I know with a BB installed AR I cannot have a magazine higher than 10 rounds. I get that.

However, can I just insert the aluminum case and floorplate into the BB ar 15 and still be legal?

It will not have the spring and follower, just an aluminum shell.

I want to take pics of it because 10 round mags just make it look gimp.

If it is illegal, can I just insert the magazine shell and have no floorplate, no follower and no spring?

383green
08-10-2010, 4:11 PM
Why don't you just buy or build a 10/30 mag? You'll get the look you want in a CA-legal, shootable configuration.

Turo
08-10-2010, 4:19 PM
If it is illegal, can I just insert the magazine shell and have no floorplate, no follower and no spring?

I believe a magazine is defined by law as an "ammunition feeding device" and if you have no follower or spring, I don't think it can be an ammunition feeding device.

That said, if you're taking pictures of it and posting them online, I would be wary of things that look illegal. Except of course with dedicated 10/30 magazines.

wash
08-10-2010, 4:21 PM
If you take out the bolt it's not really centerfire any more, I think.

That could be a way to get around creating an AW.

Vox
08-10-2010, 4:27 PM
If you take out the bolt it's not really centerfire any more, I think.

That could be a way to get around creating an AW.

I'd be weary of that too. I read somewhere I believe in reference to the carrying of a loaded weapon that it's still considered a functional firearm for legal purposes with the firing pin removed, the same (il)logic would apply here.

misterjake
08-10-2010, 4:33 PM
What if I removed the floor plate. You could clearly see the floor plate removed then by logic know that the follower and spring are not in there because the floor plate is not holding it in.

OleCuss
08-10-2010, 4:37 PM
Why not just wait for a couple of months and get some real 30 round magazines nice and legal?

It looks like sometime in October that the ban on standard capacity magazines will be gutted. In the meantime I'm not buying any of the 10-round and under magazines for my pistol since I'd much rather wait another couple of months and get the good/standard stuff.

Edit: I guess I'm not sure you'll be able to use the 30 rounders in an OLL-type lower even after the ban is gutted.

AwakeAware1016
08-10-2010, 6:22 PM
Where is this news that In a coupl of months we may not need ten rounders. Also to the OP just do it out of state.

383green
08-10-2010, 6:34 PM
It has been disclosed that some of the CGF folks have a scheme in the works which they believe will effectively nullify the large capacity magazine ban, and that the ducks should all be in a row to kick off the scheme sometime this year.

However, this has nothing to do with the original post's topic. The restriction on importation, sale and manufacturing of large capacity magazines is a separate law from the restriction on having a centerfire semiautomatic rifle with a fixed magazine holding more than ten rounds. The rumored CGF scheme is expected to make >10 round magazines available in CA again, but it will not change the need to only use >10 round magazines in featureless rifles. ARs with bullet buttons will still need to use 10 round magazines until the assault weapon bans are successfully eliminated.

OleCuss
08-10-2010, 7:00 PM
.
.
. . . it will not change the need to only use >10 round magazines in featureless rifles. . . .

A minor correction. You may also use the standard (>10 round capacity) magazines in a RAW. Also, I believe you will be able to use standard capacity magazines in your pistols.

383green
08-10-2010, 7:07 PM
A minor correction. You may also use the standard (>10 round capacity) magazines in a RAW. Also, I believe you will be able to use standard capacity magazines in your pistols.

Good point.

SJgunguy24
08-10-2010, 8:56 PM
If you remove the spring will the mag feed? If your answer is no then your in the clear, if the mag will feed then you have a hi cap feeding device.

slipangle
08-11-2010, 1:11 AM
Insert a 11+ round mag without spring or floorplate. Flip your rifle upside-down. Will it feed? Maybe, but will investigators be able to get it to feed after you're charged with creating an AW? Probably.

I wouldn't poke that sleeping bear.

Sgt5811
08-11-2010, 3:24 PM
Are you serious? Really...I mean...come on guys. You have got to be joking. Is there some magical telepathy thing that these spook BOF investigators have that let's them track the time and date of the pictures taken and the GPS coordinates of the exact location where the pictures were taken? Are you all that fearful of the far reaching and omnipotent Eye of Big Brother that you can't take a picture of a freakin rifle as it was designed? Sack up fellas. No one knows what the inside of your magazine looks like. And really, if the rifle isn't in front of their faces, what the hell can they prove. Do you really think they actually care?

OleCuss
08-11-2010, 3:27 PM
Are you serious? Really...I mean...come on guys. You have got to be joking. Is there some magical telepathy thing that these spook BOF investigators have that let's them track the time and date of the pictures taken and the GPS coordinates of the exact location where the pictures were taken? Are you all that fearful of the far reaching and omnipotent Eye of Big Brother that you can't take a picture of a freakin rifle as it was designed? Sack up fellas. No one knows what the inside of your magazine looks like. And really, if the rifle isn't in front of their faces, what the hell can they prove. Do you really think they actually care?

Some of us try to obey the law even when no one is there forcing us to do so. Sorta a point of honor.

Sgt5811
08-11-2010, 3:28 PM
Is there anything honorable about an unjust law?

Sgt5811
08-11-2010, 3:33 PM
I see more honor in standing up for your beliefs than bending to the will of "the man." I haven't spent the last 14 years wearing a uniform and protectig this nation to be questioned about honor. Sometimes you have to draw a line.

-hanko
08-11-2010, 3:45 PM
Is there anything honorable about an unjust law?
The men who founded our country didn't think so.;)

-hanko

BKinzey
08-11-2010, 3:45 PM
I don't think the answer can truly be had until someone is charged with it as a crime. If all they had as proof is a picture what is the likelihood they would pursue charges?

Personally I'd feel safe by removing the spring and follower.

OleCuss
08-11-2010, 4:03 PM
I see more honor in standing up for your beliefs than bending to the will of "the man." I haven't spent the last 14 years wearing a uniform and protectig this nation to be questioned about honor. Sometimes you have to draw a line.

Oh, for Pete's sake. You wore/wear the uniform. Thank you for your service. Unfortunately, wearing the uniform does not mean you are honorable - most are but I've met quite a few who weren't. The uniform doesn't impress me.

And no, not all laws are honorable. Just as some orders are stupid, so are some laws. You still have to obey a lawful order. I also obey laws with which I disagree to the extent to which it is possible and honorable to do so. Little things like complying with magazine laws I can do with no threat to life and limb.

And now that you're apoplectic and outraged that I could be that unimpressed by the uniform? I got a combat badge in Afghanistan. I love and support the Army and its soldiers but I don't reverence them.

Flopper
08-11-2010, 4:07 PM
Some of us try to obey the law even when no one is there forcing us to do so. Sorta a point of honor.

I actually find it much more honorable to disobey unjust laws.

Flopper
08-11-2010, 4:11 PM
You still have to obey a lawful order.

This one sentence actually brings down your whole argument.

As you well know, an unlawful order does not have to be followed.

Gun restrictions may currently be on the books, but they most certainly are illegal.

OleCuss
08-11-2010, 4:31 PM
This one sentence actually brings down your whole argument.

As you well know, an unlawful order does not have to be followed.

Gun restrictions may currently be on the books, but they most certainly are illegal.

Fascinating logic.

The law is the law and is therefore lawful. The way things work in this part of the world is that if you think a law is unjust or violates your rights you need to work through the political process and the legal system to get that unjust law shot down.

I don't get to say that a law is illegal and therefore I'll violate it: So, for instance if I were to say that the state's property laws were illegal so far as your property were concerned, that still doesn't mean that you won't think I'm a lawbreaker if I come and simply take your property.

Another illustration? I happen to believe that we have a right to own fully automatic weapons and even more impressive ones. But I'd be willing to bet that if I bought a Ma Deuce and was caught with it that most on this forum would vote for my conviction if they were on the jury. Just because I think the law is wrong it doesn't mean I should violate it.

Like it or not, we are a nation of laws and there is good reason for that. If we start saying that we can simply ignore laws because we don't like them or because they are inconvenient we will have either anarchy or monarchy/fascism. A body of societal trust is important and is almost impossible to engender without a body of law and a respect for that law.

In the military it is actually a little easier in some ways. If I think the chain of command is giving an illegal order then the UCMJ actually provides some protection should I choose to disobey that order. In the civilian world there is no equivalent (the closest thing would be an honorable DA and the rather unpopular concept of jury nullification).

Those with honor and a devotion to the betterment of our society will (when reasonably possible) obey even inconvenient laws and those laws with which they disagree because they're honorable men and women rather than because it is easy or pleasurable.

It means nothing if you do the easy and convenient thing with which you agree.

Munk
08-11-2010, 10:48 PM
Insert a 11+ round mag without spring or floorplate. Flip your rifle upside-down. Will it feed? Maybe, but will investigators be able to get it to feed after you're charged with creating an AW? Probably.

I wouldn't poke that sleeping bear.

I have seen videos of ARs firing from almost any angle.

I believe that an upsidedown AR-15 with a large mag body will still feed several rounds, but becomes less effective when there are fewer rounds (more weight on top to force the "bottom" rounds to feed correctly without jumping every time a round is fired). to this end, I think that with a large enough hopper you would be able to fire nearly indefinitely without an actual magazine, but it would still be an "ammunition feeding device" with a capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.


(I would actually like to see someone try the first part. Upsidedown AR style rifle with a 30 or more capacity magazine body feeding it. would probably work for all but the last 10 rounds or so. Youtube gold IMO.)

motorhead
08-12-2010, 10:38 AM
yes. you can put anything you want into it EXCEPT a hicap mag.

Wherryj
08-12-2010, 11:13 AM
This one sentence actually brings down your whole argument.

As you well know, an unlawful order does not have to be followed.

Gun restrictions may currently be on the books, but they most certainly are illegal.

However, in our country the law is the law UNTIL it is deemed illegal/unconstitutional. Thus, people were charged for using the "wrong fountain", for sitting in the "wrong seat", etc.

I don't see your set of ethics as an adequate defense should you ever be charged with violating an unjust law.

dreamerof1
08-12-2010, 11:32 AM
Are you serious? Really...I mean...come on guys. You have got to be joking. Is there some magical telepathy thing that these spook BOF investigators have that let's them track the time and date of the pictures taken and the GPS coordinates of the exact location where the pictures were taken? Are you all that fearful of the far reaching and omnipotent Eye of Big Brother that you can't take a picture of a freakin rifle as it was designed? Sack up fellas. No one knows what the inside of your magazine looks like. And really, if the rifle isn't in front of their faces, what the hell can they prove. Do you really think they actually care?

PM BlackWaterOps and see what he thinks of your arguement.

stix213
08-12-2010, 11:59 AM
Wait wait wait... So you are saying you have a BB EBR but don't have 10/30 mags yet? :p

enginematrix
08-12-2010, 12:27 PM
Are you serious? Really...I mean...come on guys. You have got to be joking. Is there some magical telepathy thing that these spook BOF investigators have that let's them track the time and date of the pictures taken and the GPS coordinates of the exact location where the pictures were taken? Are you all that fearful of the far reaching and omnipotent Eye of Big Brother that you can't take a picture of a freakin rifle as it was designed? Sack up fellas. No one knows what the inside of your magazine looks like. And really, if the rifle isn't in front of their faces, what the hell can they prove. Do you really think they actually care?


Not many people know this, but iPhone pictures contain the GPS coordinates of the exact location where the pictures were taken. The GPS coordinates are in the JPG exif data.

MaHoTex
08-12-2010, 12:54 PM
The restriction on importation, sale and manufacturing of large capacity magazines is a separate law from the restriction on having a centerfire semiautomatic rifle with a fixed magazine holding more than ten rounds. The rumored CGF scheme is expected to make >10 round magazines available in CA again, but it will not change the need to only use >10 round magazines in featureless rifles. ARs with bullet buttons will still need to use 10 round magazines until the assault weapon bans are successfully eliminated.

For clarification, is this scheme to make all rfiles and hangun magazines available if >10 rounds? So for my M&P 15-22 I may be able to purchase legally 25 round magazines, and for my XD9 might be able to purchase the standard magazines?

That would be wonderful!