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View Full Version : Legal length for CA Barrel and over all


Utha Schleigle
08-09-2010, 9:45 PM
For Federal I got'

(6) Federal 16" for center fire rifle barrel.

(5) Federal 18" for shot gun barrel.

(4) Federal 26" over all centerfire rifle

(1) ???Federal shotgun over all??? fill in blank _____ 26" or 28"

-----------------------------------------------------------------

California

{2} CA Center fire rifle barrel = ??________?????

(3) CA shotgun I got 18"

(7) CA shotgun overall length I got 28"

(8) CA Center fire rifle over all length ????_________ 26" 0r 28" or 31" ????

__________________________________________________ _________

If I have any thing above wrong let me know.

I am looking to get it correct - and need information. Making stocks for ROMY G

Cokebottle
08-09-2010, 9:58 PM
California

{2} CA Center fire rifle barrel = ??__16___?????

(3) CA shotgun I got 18"

(7) CA shotgun overall length I got 28"

(8) CA Center fire rifle over all length ????____30____ 26" 0r 28" or 31" ????


Big difference between California and Federal....
The Federal 26" OAL is measured with the buttstock unfolded or telescoped/extended to it's LONGEST length. An AK underfolder is legal at the Federal level.

California measures OAL as the SHORTEST configuration where the gun retains functionality.
Example, the KelTec SU16-CA is legal because the entire trigger group folds with the buttstock... it cannot be fired when folded.
The SU-16C, the trigger group retains functionality when the buttstock is folded, therefore, it is not legal in California (considered an assault weapon).

The 16" minimum barrel length MAY be met with a permanently attached muzzle device.... flash hider/compensator/fake can. It must be secure enough so that the ATF agent cannot remove it with a pipe wrench. Pinned and welded is the normal way to do it, but a couple of Calgunners have old memos from the BATF that say that 1200 degree silver solder is good.

The 30" minimum OAL does not have to be permanent, other than in the case of a folding or telescoping stock, it must be pinned so that it cannot be collapsed to less than 30"... but if a muzzle device is used to reach 30" (as some do with AK underfolders), it does not have to be permanent.

Utha Schleigle
08-09-2010, 11:03 PM
Great!!!! Thank you. I was measuring with the muzzel device OFF and no rubber recoil padd YET {incase the LE takes every thing off and then measures}. I made it 31" - Straight back non folding stock. Will get pictures soon of complete stock.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/UtgaSchleigle/furniture%20stocks/100_8799bfw.jpg

JeepsRcool
08-09-2010, 11:34 PM
Ummm why do you keep saying Centerfire rifle?
Rim and Center fire are both 16 inch min........

Quiet
08-10-2010, 12:01 AM
FEDERAL:
Minimum rifle barrel length = 16"
Minimum shotgun barrel length = 18"
Minimum overall length of a rifle or shotgun = 26"

CA:
Minimum rifle barrel length = 16"
Minimum shotgun barrel length = 18"
Minimum overall length of a shotgun or a non-semi-auto centerfire rifle = 26"
Minimum overall length for a semi-auto centerfire rifle = 30"

CA measures OAL with the rifle/shotgun in the shortest possible firing position (stock folded/collapsed).

alexsu
08-10-2010, 12:09 PM
The 30" minimum OAL does not have to be permanent, other than in the case...

Sorry for pooling up an old topic, but can you point to a legal source of "does not have to be permanent"?
I am trying to get a carabin which is slightly shorter but has a stock spacer which makes it over 30". My dealer said that it must be permanent and he cannot accept shipment of a short gun, unless the spacer is permanently installed out of California.
Considering that OAL is just another characteristics of AW and he has AW license, I suspect he just doesn't want to deal with the gun...

Thanks.

wash
08-10-2010, 12:21 PM
It doesn't exist.

You could find a federal law (or maybe an ATF letter) requiring permanently attached muzzle devices to bring a short barrel up to a legal length, but CA law doesn't say anything about OAL needing to be permanent, therfore it doesn't have to be.

Cokebottle
08-10-2010, 6:58 PM
Ummm why do you keep saying Centerfire rifle?
Rim and Center fire are both 16 inch min........
NFA/California limits are the same for both on barrel length, but OAL requirements are different.

Federal, and California rimfire or non-semiautomatic are both 26" OAL (and I don't know if the California OAL is measured the same as Federal or not), but for a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle, an OAL of less than 30" creates an assault weapon. This is a completely separate statute from the 26" OAL for any other weapon and minimum barrel length.

Cokebottle
08-10-2010, 7:02 PM
Considering that OAL is just another characteristics of AW and he has AW license, I suspect he just doesn't want to deal with the gun...
^^^^ This
Sorry for pooling up an old topic, but can you point to a legal source of "does not have to be permanent"?
I am trying to get a carabin which is slightly shorter but has a stock spacer which makes it over 30". My dealer said that it must be permanent and he cannot accept shipment of a short gun, unless the spacer is permanently installed out of California.
As Wash indicated, there is no PC that requires permanent mounting, therefore, non-permanent is legal.
The PC indicates what is illegal, not what is legal, unless the "legal" is an exception to something that is otherwise "illegal".... IE, it's illegal to use your cellphone while driving, EXCEPT when using handsfree, or making a 911 emergency call (and a few other exceptions).
The PC does not say that you can drink a coke while driving.

ke6guj
08-10-2010, 7:04 PM
The 16" minimum barrel length MAY be met with a permanently attached muzzle device.... flash hider/compensator/fake can. It must be secure enough so that the ATF agent cannot remove it with a pipe wrench. Pinned and welded is the normal way to do it, but a couple of Calgunners have old memos from the BATF that say that 1200 degree silver solder is good.
covered in the NFA handbook that ATF puts out.

2.1.3 Rifle. A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of
an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each single pull
of the trigger.11 A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the
furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and
measured.http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

Utha Schleigle
08-11-2010, 12:27 AM
Great additional information!! THANK YOU!!!

For my projects I am going with for CA

shot gun Over all lenghth 28 1/2 inches perferred - 28" absolute minium

Rifle over all length 31" perferred - 30 mininum - sorry for the confusing centerfire cartrifge stuff - any rifle - I know you guyz said 26" for non semi-auto-loading rifle but I am still going 30" and above.

For me I am clear

Hope fully CA laws will mirror Federal laws closer in the future.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/UtgaSchleigle/ak%20stuff/100_5960bfw.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/UtgaSchleigle/ak%20stuff/100_5964bwf.jpg
{just for laughs here is pictures of OEM wleds on Romainian pump action akm I got - muzzel device attached with 2 spot welds}

Have fun with your guns and gun-smithing!!!

NotEnoughGuns
08-29-2010, 10:32 AM
I've been looking through the PC for the last hour and I'm starting to go crazy. Can anyone give me the PC about the 30" min OAL for centerfire rifles? And is there any PCs about OAL for rimfire? My head is spinning right now. :wacko:

Quiet
08-29-2010, 11:52 AM
I've been looking through the PC for the last hour and I'm starting to go crazy. Can anyone give me the PC about the 30" min OAL for centerfire rifles? And is there any PCs about OAL for rimfire? My head is spinning right now. :wacko:

The 30" minimum OAL for semi-auto centerfire rifles is part of the assault weapons laws. [PC 12276.1(a)(3)]

The 26" minimum OAL for all rifles (centerfire & rimfire) is part of the short barrel rifle laws. [PC 12020(c)(2)]


Penal Code 12276.1
(a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

Penal Code 12020
(c)(2) As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(A) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(B) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(C) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Rogu3
08-29-2010, 9:00 PM
So wait ahh...IS an SBR legal in CA? I'm fairly sure no, been looking the the flow charts and stuff, but it's still quite muddy to me...

Cokebottle
08-29-2010, 9:04 PM
So wait ahh...IS an SBR legal in CA? I'm fairly sure no, been looking the the flow charts and stuff, but it's still quite muddy to me...
As I understand it, it's legal if you have the NFA tax stamp.

Good luck at getting one ;)

Honestly, I don't know how the intersect is handled between NFA SBR status and California's AW law requiring an OAL > 30".

It would be a shame to be able to have an SBR with a 10" barrel and then have to cripple it with a 20" buttstock to meet OAL for AW statutes.

ke6guj
08-29-2010, 9:09 PM
So wait ahh...IS an SBR legal in CA? I'm fairly sure no, been looking the the flow charts and stuff, but it's still quite muddy to me...

to own a modern SBR in CA, you have to have a CADOJ Dangerous Weapons permit (virtually impossible to get). If you ahve the DW permit, then BATF will approve the SBR paperwork for you to own it.

I'm assuming that if you can get the DW permit for an SBR, CADOJ would also issue you an AW permit, or else consider the SBR permit to "include" the AW permit.



If you can find an C&R SBR, you can own it in CA with just a CLEO sign-off (or trust exemption), no need for the DW permit. In this case, you still need to comply with the AW regs.

Rogu3
08-29-2010, 9:12 PM
Blast!

Oh well guess it has to wait...what about registering as a handgun? I know it's done in some states.

ke6guj
08-29-2010, 9:16 PM
registering WHAT as a handgun?

Cokebottle
08-29-2010, 9:18 PM
what about registering as a handgun?
In what context? You mean registering an SBR as a handgun?
No go... if it has ever had a buttstock attached, or the receiver has ever been put into the system as a "long gun", then it's a long gun forever.

Other states it'll fly as a pistol because the 4473 allows for "handgun", "long gun", or "other".
California DROS only includes "handgun" and "long gun", and a stripped receiver cannot be DROSed as a "handgun" because it is neither roster compliant, nor roster exempt.

Rogu3
08-29-2010, 9:25 PM
Hmmm alright, good help. Guess i'll have to 'settle' for an AR pistol eh

Utha Schleigle
11-05-2010, 1:27 PM
Cross reference thread:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=360115

Measure-ing rodd and rubber bands BABY!!!