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Slugger
04-29-2006, 9:43 PM
Hi folks,

I was directed to this forum by a friend, so that makes me a newbie, I suppose.

Please excuse me if this question has been asked before.

Do I need a 01 FFL holder to ship a modern handgun to an out of state FFL holder or can I simply ship it myself using UPS or equivalent? :confused:

Thank you!

Slugger :)

socal57chevy
04-29-2006, 10:33 PM
Since nobody has chimed in yet...
I just recently moved to Ca, but as I understand it the firearm is registered to you and the state of California knows it. State law requires handgun transfers to be handled through an 01 FFL regardless of where it is going. If any part of the transaction involves a CA resident it must go through the FFL. Also see http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/ and http://www.calgunlaws.com/
Hope this helped.

Found this.

I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:
a. For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction
b. For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of $10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.htm#9

Jeff Rambo
04-29-2006, 10:36 PM
You can send to the buyers FFL as long as s/he is willing to accept from a private person. Just make sure you verify the FFL prior to shipping. Once you release possession/ownership of the firearm, go to the CA DOJ Firearms Division Web site and print out the form that allows you to make a declaration of no longer being in possession of a firearm. Fill it out, send it off to the DOJ and consider yourself done.

EBWhite
04-29-2006, 11:46 PM
According to the letter of the law you prob will need to go with an FFL.

However, you can choose to ship it UPS if you want and im sure 99.9% you will NOT run into any problems as long as you ship it to a valid FFL.

ohsmily
04-30-2006, 12:17 AM
J. Rambo is correct, the rest of you are victims of FFL BS. As the seller, you DO NOT have to have an FFL ship the gun out for sale. The law requires that an FFL receive it and conduct the transfer legally (background check, etc.) That is what the cited law is referring to.

You are NOT violating the "letter of the law" by sending it yourself as EBWhite said (if you were, you would be violating the law, PERIOD. I don't know why he is distinguishing by letter of the law or not as if it were better...you would be breaking the law). You are perfectly allowed to do so by law. You can usually ship it cheaper yourself rather than paying an FFL to ship it for you. Just make sure it is going to a valid FFL holder (check on the ATF website quickcheck).

Mssr. Eleganté
04-30-2006, 12:18 AM
Perfectly legal to ship it yourself. No need to use an FFL on your end. But as Jeff Rambo suggests, make sure the receiving FFL will accept a shipment from a non-FFL.

The only two shipping options for you are UPS or FedEx over night service. Expect to pay between $40 and $60 for this service.

If you have a dealer ship it for you the dealer is allowed to use the US Mail to ship handguns to another dealer or manufacturer. The dealer will charge you a fee, but that fee plus US Mail shipping is often less than the UPS or FedEx shipping charges you'll have to pay shipping it yourself.

Slugger
04-30-2006, 8:36 AM
All-

Thank you very much for your timely responses! :)

Best regards,

Slugger

xenophobe
04-30-2006, 10:59 AM
If you're shipping it to another FFL, you will most likely need to include a copy of your drivers license. Although it's not required by law, many FFLs will want to have a record or verify via ID who you are when they log the firearm in.

You may not ship a firearm to yourself. You may privately ship a firearm to a FFL, but you cannot send a firearm to your mountain home in Montana.

Origin: You may personally ship it to any FFL.
Destination: Must be an FFL of some sort, Licensed Dealer, Licensed Gunsmith, Licensed Manufacturer, etc...

EOD Guy
04-30-2006, 11:08 AM
You may not ship a firearm to yourself. You may privately ship a firearm to a FFL, but you cannot send a firearm to your mountain home in Montana.



You certainly can ship a firearm to yourself. Here is a quote from the ATF website:

(B10) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?


Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the state where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

xenophobe
04-30-2006, 11:21 AM
I stand corrected, however UPS will not allow you to ship a firearm to a non-FFL. USPS will not allow you to ship a firearm unless you are an FFL. I'm not sure about FedEx's policy.

EBWhite
04-30-2006, 1:02 PM
UPS is a private company and they are not law- they don't really care as long as they get their money and what they don't know wont hurt them :-)

Mssr. Eleganté
04-30-2006, 1:30 PM
I stand corrected, however UPS will not allow you to ship a firearm to a non-FFL.

UPS recently changed their firearm shipping policy. Where they used to only allow you to ship firearms to licensed manufacturers or gunsmiths for customization or repair, they now allow you to ship firearms to whomever may legally receive them. So shipping within a state ( excluding California for the most part ) without shipping to an FFL and shipping interstate to yourself are now OK with UPS.

USPS will not allow you to ship a firearm unless you are an FFL.

The US Postal Service will allow unlicensed individuals to ship long guns.

These are the written policies of UPS and the Post Office. What the person behind the counter tells you is a different story.

bwiese
04-30-2006, 6:02 PM
UPS is a private company and they are not law- they don't really care as long as they get their money and what they don't know wont hurt them :-)

WRONG AGAIN, EBWhite.

You are legally mandated to disclose the fact you are shipping a firearm to any shipper.

You can't just say "metal parts".

ohsmily
04-30-2006, 9:18 PM
WRONG AGAIN, EBWhite.


Are you surprised? He consistently gives out advice that is either wrong (partially or otherwise), or that he knows is illegal but states that "no one will ever know"...

EBWhite
04-30-2006, 9:36 PM
WRONG AGAIN, EBWhite.

You are legally mandated to disclose the fact you are shipping a firearm to any shipper.

You can't just say "metal parts".

When shipping any item with UPS, there is no form requiring you to let them know what is in the box. I have never read any law mandating you to tell a private company what is in the box. Thousands of firearms get shipped each day thru private companies like DHL, UPS, Fedex and you are allowed to ship yourself or a firearm to an FFL as long as you follow to law on transporting the firearm. (ie: not selling a gun out of state and bypassing an FFL).

Please show me the law stating that you have to disclose to the shipping what is in the box---
And no, i don't want to know what these private companies think when it comes to shipping a firearm. they don't matter and nobody cares what "their" views are- shipping an unloaded firearm is NO different than a knife or cooking pot. You will NEVER run into any issues with these companies as long as you follow the law on who you can and cannot ship to.

EBWhite
04-30-2006, 9:39 PM
Are you surprised? He consistently gives out advice that is either wrong (partially or otherwise), or that he knows is illegal but states that "no one will ever know"...


It is not that the advice is wrong- They is plenty of people here that state the law. I am stating the additional facts so it makes people think.

Just like, what is the speed limit in california on freeways-

Osmiley: As posted but normally 65 miles per hour

Ebwhite version: The speed limit is normally 65mph but as long as you stay with the flow or traffic or approx 5mph you should not run into any issues...

I sure like my answer better....

Mssr. Eleganté
04-30-2006, 11:13 PM
WRONG AGAIN, EBWhite.

You are legally mandated to disclose the fact you are shipping a firearm to any shipper.

Federal law only requires you to disclose to the shipper that you are shipping a firearm when you are shipping to a non-licensee in another state. If you are shipping a firearm to an FFL in another state or to anybody in your state then you are not required by Federal law to tell the shipping company.


Title 18
Part 1
Chapter 44
Section 922. Unlawful acts
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped;

The only time most people would be requied by law to notify the shipper is when they are shipping a firearm to themselves in another state. All other times they are either shipping within their state or shipping to an FFL out of state. FFL's have to notify the shipper when they return a firearm to its unlicensed owner in another state. So the notification thing is mostly just company policy, not law.

You will NEVER run into any issues with these companies as long as you follow the law on who you can and cannot ship to.

Even though you may not be legally required to notify the shipping company that your package contains a firearm, if the company has a policy that you are required to notify them and you fail to do so, you will most likely not get reimbursed if the package gets damaged. That could be an "issue" for some people.

rorschach
04-30-2006, 11:56 PM
When I sent a pistol to Robar a while back, they recommended I use UPS, and that I disclose "firearm" under contents, for insurance purposes. When I received it 2 weeks later, it came with an "adult signature required" label plastered on the box. My dad signed for it, and I had no problems whatsoever.

EOD Guy
05-01-2006, 6:14 AM
I stand corrected, however UPS will not allow you to ship a firearm to a non-FFL. USPS will not allow you to ship a firearm unless you are an FFL. I'm not sure about FedEx's policy.


The UPS tariff allows for shipping to a non-FFL. They do it all the time. The problem with some UPS counters is that they don't understand their own company's policies or they make up their own. Also, you do not need an FFL to mail rifles or shotguns, only handguns.

Here is part of the UPS tariff for shipping firearms:

Firearms will be transported between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers and licensed collectors, as defined in the United States Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618, enacted October 22, 1968), as amended by the Firearms Owners' Protection Act (P.L. 99-308, approved May 19, 1986, and a subsequent amendment thereto, P.L. 99-360, approved July 8, 1986)("the acts"). law enforcement agencies of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, and law enforcement agencies of any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof, and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state, or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local law.

ohsmily
05-01-2006, 3:31 PM
Please show me the law stating that you have to disclose to the shipping what is in the box---
And no, i don't want to know what these private companies think when it comes to shipping a firearm. they don't matter and nobody cares what "their" views are- shipping an unloaded firearm is NO different than a knife or cooking pot. You will NEVER run into any issues with these companies as long as you follow the law on who you can and cannot ship to.

In case you didn't see it in Amendment's post, here it is smart guy...

Title 18
Part 1
Chapter 44
Section 922. Unlawful acts
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped;

EOD Guy
05-02-2006, 6:23 AM
In case you didn't see it in Amendment's post, here it is smart guy...

Title 18
Part 1
Chapter 44
Section 922. Unlawful acts
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped;

As Amendment II stated in his post, notification is not required if shipping to a licensee. It's only required when shipping to an unlicensed individual.

TonyKat
05-02-2006, 6:28 AM
didn't know that

harley66
05-02-2006, 5:37 PM
I have a UPS account and no where on the web page does it ask (whats in the box) I have shipped a gun for sale to NV (gun shop) no problems, I have shipped my 1911's several times to Gun Smiths - never a problem - have insured up to 3K (requires special paperwork signed by the driver) still NEVER asked whats in the box -

harley66
05-02-2006, 5:40 PM
If you use UPS at all - I would suggest you open an account - all you need is a Charge Card and a few min - free and fast... then you can print out your own lables (they even send you peel and stick lables for free) then all you have to do is hand the box to ANY driver anywhere or at any UPS pickup / drop off - NEVER a question ask and you don't have to stand in line...