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Buckeye Dan
08-09-2010, 12:34 PM
Also Seeks Ban on Lead Fishing Tackle

8/5/10

This week, two environmental groups filed a petition with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) seeking a nationwide ban on lead ammunition and lead fishing tackle. Such a ban would drastically reduce sportsmen numbers and result in decimated funding for wildlife conservation programs due to a loss of revenue from licenses and taxes on sporting equipment.

The petition filed was filed under the Toxic Substances Control Act, which regulates dangerous chemicals, on August 3 by the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD), the American Bird Conservancy and several other groups. It claims that the use of traditional ammunition is dangerous to certain types of wildlife, including numerous birds, which scavenge on parts of game that remain in the field.

The U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance (USSA) and other groups have repeatedly pointed out that scientific evidence connecting lead ammunition to the harm of most animal populations is inconclusive. However, there are real concerns that forcing sportsmen to purchase higher cost, non-lead ammunition will decrease the number of days spent in the field as it prices many out of the market.

“It is important for everyone to remember that the engine that drives wildlife conservation is fueled by the dollars generated by the American sportsman,” said Rob Sexton, USSA vice president for government affairs. “In fact, sportsmen contribute nearly every dime used for managing wildlife and habitat preservation from coast to coast. Given our history of over 100 years of successful wildlife conservation, you would in essence be killing the goose that laid the golden egg with this meat cleaver approach.”

Take Action! Sportsmen are encouraged to express their opposition to this petition by contacting the following Environmental Protection Agency staff. Let them know that sportsmen represent the foundation of America’s conservation movement and that this ban will result in a critical loss of funding for wildlife and other important programs:



Lisa P. Jackson
Administrator
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
1200 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20460
(202) 564-4700
Fax: (202) 501-1450
Email: jackson.lisa@epa.gov

And

Steve Owens
Assistant Administrator, Prevention, Pesticides & Toxic Substance
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
1200 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20460
(202) 564-2902
Fax: (202) 546-0801
Email: owens.steve@epa.gov


An Associated Press article on the above, in case anyone doubts the authenticity of this:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hCramAIeFnoLFi0z49hPQAC6CrPQD9HC84U80

The petition:
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/get_the_lead_out/pdfs/Final_TSCA_lead_ban_petition_8-3-10.pdf

Mods you might want to sticky this thread in ALL the forums that pertain to hunting and fishing. The urgency of this deserves maximum exposure.

And yes they really are sweeping as broadly as they possibly can. This is not just some proposal for some phased-in plan to limit the use of lead on federal hunting land.

RRangel
08-09-2010, 1:30 PM
This certainly needs are our attention. Everyone should contact the EPA reps listed and voice their concerns appropriately.

The CBD is certainly trying to push the envelope in what gun owners and hunters can stand. They need to be stopped and gun owners are just the people to help do it.

spiderpigs
08-09-2010, 1:33 PM
SALINAS
Lead bullet ban topic of meeting
A proposed nationwide ban on the use of lead ammunition and fishing sinkers will be discussed by the Monterey County Fish and Game Advisory Commission at its meeting at 7 p.m. Tuesday at the Elks Club, 614 Airport Blvd.

Biologist Joe Burnett of the Ventana Wildlife Society will speak on the effect of lead on condors. A state ban on the use of lead bullets or shotgun slugs and pellets in the condor range is already in effect.

Just saw this morning.

RRangel
08-09-2010, 1:41 PM
This is an end run around our Second Amendment. Without ammunition firearms are useless. Copper has already been deemed toxic. Tungsten has been banned for use in military green ammo in 2006. This should be a wake up call to gun owners.

HondaMasterTech
08-09-2010, 1:45 PM
Mythbusters used frozen meat for bullets once. Maybe we'll be ok afterall ;)

Aleksei Vasiliev
08-09-2010, 1:49 PM
Lead ammunition is indeed a major problem for wetland waterfoul. Good thing it's federally banned for hunting them!

I don't know of any other place where lead ammunition poses a real, significant risk.

RRangel
08-09-2010, 1:53 PM
Mythbusters used frozen meat for bullets once. Maybe we'll be ok afterall ;)

What's that supposed to mean? In the age where your Second Amendment right is about to be negated by less than honest environmentalists with an agenda that's the best you can do?

HondaMasterTech
08-09-2010, 2:04 PM
I suppose it won't be long before meat bullets are banned as well.

Maybe bullets made from happy thoughts? Who could ban happy thoughts?

RRangel
08-09-2010, 2:05 PM
Lead ammunition is indeed a major problem for wetland waterfoul. Good thing it's federally banned for hunting them!

I don't know of any other place where lead ammunition poses a real, significant risk.

The biggest red flag is that alternative metals have already been deemed toxic and prohibited in one form or another. Both copper and tungsten. Where does that leave alternatives? Copper bullets would presumably be allowed at first. Until such time that they're deemed not acceptable. Which we can already see a mile down the road.

Glock22Fan
08-09-2010, 2:16 PM
The biggest red flag is that alternative metals have already been deemed toxic and prohibited in one form or another. Both copper and tungsten. Where does that leave alternatives? Copper bullets would presumably be allowed at first. Until such time that they're deemed not acceptable. Which we can already see a mile down the road.

Bring out the depleted uranium!

sbrady@Michel&Associates
08-09-2010, 2:19 PM
I posted a lot of information re what the NRA and CRPA Foundation have been doing on the various attempts to ban lead ammo here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=321642&highlight=traditional

Our office, on behalf of the NRA and CRPA Foundation are addressing this petition by the CBD as well. The lead attorney on that matter, an environmental law specialist, Lee Smith, will keep everyone updated.

nick
08-09-2010, 2:30 PM
I posted a lot of information re what the NRA and CRPA Foundation have been doing on the various attempts to ban lead ammo here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=321642&highlight=traditional

Our office, on behalf of the NRA and CRPA Foundation are addressing this petition by the CBD as well. The lead attorney on that matter, an environmental law specialist, Lee Smith, will keep everyone updated.

Wish I got the kind of ROI I get from giving money to NRA/CRPA/CGF/SAF from paying taxes. Come to think of it, what I get from paying my taxes is EPA, among other useless things that create the need for me to give money to NRA/CRPA/CGF/SAF.

Glock22Fan
08-09-2010, 2:34 PM
I posted a lot of information re what the NRA and CRPA Foundation have been doing on the various attempts to ban lead ammo here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=321642&highlight=traditional

Our office, on behalf of the NRA and CRPA Foundation are addressing this petition by the CBD as well. The lead attorney on that matter, an environmental law specialist, Lee Smith, will keep everyone updated.

Do the other side have a copper attorney? :eek:

sbrady@Michel&Associates
08-09-2010, 2:47 PM
Do the other side have a copper attorney? :eek:

That is pretty funny. Of course I meant the "lead attorney" as in heading up the matter, but come to think of it, the other side probably should get a copper attorney, and a tungsten one, and perhaps, as I just learned from a post above, a frozen meat attorney.

nick
08-09-2010, 3:01 PM
Well, that would finally sell the backlog of Swedish rounds with wooden bullets and German rounds with plastic bullets. Maybe it's the companies which overbought those rounds that lobby for this :)

Sarkoon
08-09-2010, 3:06 PM
Ok who's got some M855A1 for sale?!

Colt-45
08-09-2010, 3:26 PM
How about we lobby for a ban on environmentalists?:rolleyes:

These $%^&ing people attack us from every angle, I'm tired of it!

N6ATF
08-09-2010, 8:56 PM
Too many environmentalists would seem to rather the human race go extinct. Don't eat animal protein, starve, die. Eat vegetarian with substitute proteins, get morbidly obese, die. Don't load your gun because BS ammo is too expensive, get attacked by criminals, die.

Hogxtz
08-09-2010, 9:28 PM
During my gold dreging 2 years ago all over Sierra Nevada mountains, I can tell you there is tons of lead and mercury all over in our rivers and streams, has been for years. I pulled so much lead and mercury out of my sluice boxs from my dredges you would think new born kids would look like 3 legged zombies. The toxic lead science is B.S. just like Al Gores get rich scheme. Its nothing more than them manipulating the laws to get rid of activites they dont want under the guise of "its bad for the enviorment".

Scott Connors
08-09-2010, 9:31 PM
[QUOTE
Maybe bullets made from happy thoughts? Who could ban happy thoughts?[/QUOTE]

The Taliban?

Hogxtz
08-09-2010, 9:38 PM
To Davis and ASSC, for the "lead atty", where did the lead come from in the first place? Mined from the earth perhaps? Hmm.. toxic lead bad for the enviorment, wait, didnt it come from the enviorment in the first place? Those enviormental groups are really starting to annoy me.

turbogg
08-09-2010, 9:45 PM
This is insane. There are more than 13 milliion diesel trucks in the US, polluting far more than any of us could ever attempt with our bullets. This is such an asinine ploy to take away our 2A rights in the name of "save the environment". Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

ironpegasus
08-10-2010, 7:10 AM
This is insane. There are more than 13 milliion diesel trucks in the US, polluting far more than any of us could ever attempt with our bullets. This is such an asinine ploy to take away our 2A rights in the name of "save the environment". Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Don't knock the diesel trucks - you might give the environmentalists an idea and then the diesel powered trucks, trains and ships that deliver the ammo won't be able to deliver it. Stop feeding ideas to the greenies.

not-fishing
08-10-2010, 7:54 AM
I take my three boys pheasant hunting and trap shooting. I've standardized on 20 ga because we don't need a bigger gun for the pheasant.

I shoot a Grulla, my youngest son (15 yrs) shoots a '39 LC Smith, the middle boy is stationed in Okinawa with the Corps so this year is out, I won't see him till next year The oldest boy can only hunt a couple of days a year.

I also take my youngest son's friends hunting/trap shooting. I want to spread the pro-hunting shooting "Word" and add kids who know how to hunt.

We go thru around 5 cases of target ammo a year and maybe 5 boxes of hunting ammo. I guess I've spent to much time as a Boy Scout Assistant Scout Master.

We cannot shoot steel in our double barrel shotguns as it will ruin them.

Now the numbers.

Trap shooting - just the ammo

I used to spend about $5 for a box of 25 shells (lead of course) so for three people shooting 3 boxes each (to keep shoulders from getting pounded and developing a flinch) the cost is 3 x 3 x $5/(25 rd box) = $45.00

With the current increase in trap shells my cost now is 3 x 3 x $ 6.50/(25 rd box) = $ 58.50

If I have to go to nontoxic my cost becomes 3 x 3 x (2.5 boxes of 10 round) x $ 35/10 round nontoxic) = $ 787.50 per trip for three rounds of trap for three shooters. :eek:

Hunting costs do basically the same thing because the nontoxic shells I can use cost me about $3.00 per shot. I was forced to use copper coated shot at my hunting club last year - a sign of things to come - yet I was glad they didn't demand non-toxic

I've got a better idea.

If you really want to get the lead out how about replacing all the lead pipe, lead-tin soldered pipe, lead roof flashing and lead wheel weights.

It should only cost a trillion dollars or so but at least everybody would have to Get the Lead Out and just think of how many Condors would be Saved!

hill billy
08-10-2010, 8:59 AM
I wish evil and nasty things on the CBD. They have been a thorn in my side for years and I have been fighting them where I can. They need to be stopped and put in a hole. They sue, win settlements to go away and then utilize that money to sue some more. I laughed pretty hard when one of their lead attorneys was cited for littering in Glamis a few years back while there with the press.

ned946
08-10-2010, 10:30 AM
Another thing to consider is current copper prices.

I couldn't imagine the cost of copper based ammo....:eek:

Big Jake
08-10-2010, 10:50 AM
Another thing to consider is current copper prices.

I couldn't imagine the cost of copper based ammo....:eek:

No kidding. Ouch!

Buckeye Dan
08-10-2010, 11:18 AM
I posted this in another forum and I think it may be of interest here too.

Typical estimates put US hunter numbers at roughly 20 million per year. That is all hunting for all animals. License sales in 2005 indicated 14.5 million hunters. Not everyone is required to purchase a license. Land owners, seniors, veterans etc are often exempt from license sales in some states. They say that hunting numbers have been in decline for at least that long. So for the purposes of this example I am going to assume 20 million hunters is an accurate representation for 2010.

I deer hunt. Last year I fired 4 rounds while hunting any game. I used 1 ounce sluggers. So in 2009-2010 hunting season I am responsible for 4 ounces of lead being reintroduced into the environment as a result of hunting. The rate of decay for that lead is so minor and so localized on such a grand scale it is insignificant. Assuming I hunt for 50 years and my results are the same each year I will have produced 12.5 pounds of lead contamination in my lifetime. That assumes I fire 4 rounds each year or even get to fire a round at all.

A single civil war battle did that in a matter of minutes. Those bullets are still virtually intact today. Those bullets are leeching so slowly it's going to take a 1000+ years for them to fully decompose. The lead that we return to the earth with it's typical decay rate is no more poisonous to the environment than naturally occurring poisons and disease.

A visit to Gettysburg will make my case conclusively. The wildlife is in full bloom. The lead flung during that conflict is in a highly localized area compared to hunting practices. 160,000 soldiers saturated the area for 3 days. How is the predatory bird wildlife there? See for yourself: http://www.gettysburgdaily.com/?p=1256

Bird watching and wildlife is alive and well in Normandy too. Normandy probably had 100x the lead flung than the Gettysburg battle. The pacific islands are alive and well too. We all know how delicate the island ecosystems are.

1 pelican swallowing 1 fish that swallowed one lead bullet or sinker and the science can be altered to show anything they want. Explain the predatory and scavenging wildlife that thrives on war torn battle fields please?

This ban is something else and it has nothing to do with the environment. We must give them nothing. Period.

wkd4496
08-10-2010, 12:20 PM
Bring out the depleted uranium!

That would be one VERY heavy bullet.

WatchMan
08-10-2010, 1:30 PM
Don't knock the diesel trucks - you might give the environmentalists an idea and then the diesel powered trucks, trains and ships that deliver the ammo won't be able to deliver it. Stop feeding ideas to the greenies.

Not to run off topic too much, but there is actually an interesting story behind this. A few years ago, in attempt to decrease the diesel exhaust particulate output of these vehicles, the mandates that were put into place actually made the situation worse. Having spent time working for the EPA, I can say it's a classic example of policy makers and those that influence their decisions being completely ill-informed of the realities and being completely unwilling to listen to expert points of view. Sound familiar, yeah?

BigDogatPlay
08-10-2010, 2:06 PM
I concluded long ago that the only people more out of touch with the realities of life and the world than professional academics are government bureaucrats.

The entire "science" behind the lead ammo ban in the condor range was crap. The Fish & Game Commission was kind of getting around to figuring that out when the Legislature short circuited the regulatory process and enacted a law that banned lead ammo outright. I'm still convinced that was done because the proponents of the ban were afraid the Commission would ultimately rule against their junk science and propaganda.

Now we have the EPA getting involved... an agency with a long history of overreaching and regulatory excess, which begs a question; are the proponents afraid of launching their proposed ban in front of the federal Fish & Wildlife Service.... which actually has purview over the issue?

Hippo
08-10-2010, 2:57 PM
Won't someone PLEASE think of the condors!

I'm in favor of removing lead from ammo if they require it be removed from every LEO and military round as well. After all we can't pollute our own cities or foreign countries. We're better than that.

LeeSmith@Michel&Assoc.
08-10-2010, 4:48 PM
CBD’s latest petition to the United States Environmental Protection Agency seeking to ban lead ammunition pursuant to TSCA, is part and parcel of its game plan to ban lead ammunition throughout the United States.

Our firm, on behalf of our client the NRA, has engaged CBD on numerous fronts regarding this identical scientifically based attack on hunters and recreational shooters. CBD, in conjunction with other environmental organizations, has already used this science in their attempt to implement lead bans in California and Arizona (i.e. in California AB 821 and SB 2223, in Arizona CBD v. BLM), in which we represent the NRA.

Our firm fully intends to confront CBD and its allies on this latest front to yet again debunk their science and preserve the rights of recreational shooters and hunters to continue to use lead ammunition. We will provide status updates when appropriate, and you can subscribe to the alerts at www.calgunlaws.com (http://www.calgunlaws.com). We appreciate everyone’s zealous support on this crucial matter.

WatchMan
08-11-2010, 9:42 AM
CBD’s latest petition to the United States Environmental Protection Agency seeking to ban lead ammunition pursuant to TSCA, is part and parcel of its game plan to ban lead ammunition throughout the United States.

Our firm, on behalf of our client the NRA, has engaged CBD on numerous fronts regarding this identical scientifically based attack on hunters and recreational shooters. CBD, in conjunction with other environmental organizations, has already used this science in their attempt to implement lead bans in California and Arizona (i.e. in California AB 821 and SB 2223, in Arizona CBD v. BLM), in which we represent the NRA.

Our firm fully intends to confront CBD and its allies on this latest front to yet again debunk their science and preserve the rights of recreational shooters and hunters to continue to use lead ammunition. We will provide status updates when appropriate, and you can subscribe to the alerts at www.calgunlaws.com (http://www.calgunlaws.com). We appreciate everyone’s zealous support on this crucial matter.

Outstanding. Thanks! I always LOVE seeing Michel and Assoc. posts!!

Cool Hand Luke
08-11-2010, 9:48 AM
I bet all these effin' hypocrites drive hybrids with more lead in them than 100 shooters fire out in a lifetime. :rolleyes:

Buckeye Dan
08-13-2010, 12:32 AM
My biology and chemistry knowledge makes me a hack at best. I understand it and stuff but a scientist I aint. So here is the link to the NRA's involvement on this matter:

http://home.nra.org/#/home/VideoModule/Organization%20Seeks%20Nationwide%20Ban%20On%20Lea d%20Ammo%20Worley.xml


Watch, learn, dial, mail, email your position on this matter to the powers that be.

motorhead
08-13-2010, 9:59 AM
what is the ammo manufacturers reaction to this?

vantec08
08-25-2010, 10:50 AM
http://www.nssfblog.com/epa-considering-ban-on-traditional-ammunition-take-action-now/



EPA Considering Ban on Traditional Ammunition — Take Action Now
August 25, 2010 By Larry Keane View Comments
Share

All Gun Owners, Hunters and Shooters:

With the fall hunting season fast approaching, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) under Lisa Jackson, who was responsible for banning bear hunting in New Jersey, is now considering a petition by the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) – a leading anti-hunting organization – to ban all traditional ammunition under the Toxic Substance Control Act of 1976, a law in which Congress expressly exempted ammunition. If the EPA approves the petition, the result will be a total ban on all ammunition containing lead-core components, including hunting and target-shooting rounds. The EPA must decide to accept or reject this petition by November 1, 2010, the day before the midterm elections.

Today, the EPA has opened to public comment the CBD petition. The comment period ends on October 31, 2010.

The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) — the trade association for the firearms, ammunition, hunting and shooting sports industry — urges you to submit comment to the EPA opposing any ban on traditional ammunition. Remember, your right to choose the ammunition you hunt and shoot with is at stake.

The EPA has published the petition and relevant supplemental information as Docket ID: EPA-HQ-OPPT-2010-0681. If you would like to read the original petition and see the contents of this docket folder, please click here. In order to go directly to the ‘submit a comment’ page for this docket number, please click here.

NSSF urges you to stress the following in your opposition:

* There is no scientific evidence that the use of traditional ammunition is having an adverse impact on wildlife populations.

* Wildlife management is the proper jurisdiction of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the 50 state wildlife agencies.

* A 2008 study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on blood lead levels of North Dakota hunters confirmed that consuming game harvested with traditional ammunition does not pose a human health risk.

* A ban on traditional ammunition would have a negative impact on wildlife conservation. The federal excise tax that manufacturers pay on the sale of the ammunition (11 percent) is a primary source of wildlife conservation funding. The bald eagle’s recovery, considered to be a great conservation success story, was made possible and funded by hunters using traditional ammunition – the very ammunition organizations like the CBD are now demonizing.

* Recent statistics from the United States Fish and Wildlife Service show that from 1981 to 2006 the number of breeding pairs of bald eagles in the United States increased 724 percent. And much like the bald eagle, raptor populations throughout the United States are soaring.

Cr6IC
08-25-2010, 11:35 AM
EPA can just decide that ammunition regulation is within it's purview?

Vox
08-25-2010, 12:26 PM
here we go again on our own, going down the only road we've ever known....

sorry, thread title precision ftw

sbrady@Michel&Associates
08-25-2010, 12:49 PM
I posted a lot of information re what the NRA and CRPA Foundation have been doing on the various attempts to ban lead ammo on post #10 here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=321642&highlight=traditional

And there was extensive discussion about this matter already here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=330117&highlight=traditional

Our office, on behalf of the NRA and CRPA Foundation are addressing this petition by the CBD as well. The lead attorney on that matter, an environmental law specialist, Lee Smith, will keep everyone updated.

gtturborex
08-25-2010, 12:54 PM
I posted a lot of information re what the NRA and CRPA Foundation have been doing on the various attempts to ban lead ammo on post #10 here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=321642&highlight=traditional

And there was extensive discussion about this matter already here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=330117&highlight=traditional

Our office, on behalf of the NRA and CRPA Foundation are addressing this petition by the CBD as well. The lead attorney on that matter, an environmental law specialist, Lee Smith, will keep everyone updated.

Thanks for your work on this and all related matters!!!

jgaffney
08-25-2010, 2:21 PM
I got my comment in. What are you waiting for?

himurax13
08-25-2010, 2:55 PM
I got mine in. You just have to argue with statistics and epidemeolgy. Anything else is just pure hysteria.

mcsoupman
08-25-2010, 3:06 PM
I submitted. What about you?

sbrady@Michel&Associates
08-25-2010, 3:12 PM
Just wanted to let everyone know that our office, on behalf of the NRA and CRPA Foundation, is addressing this petition by the CBD as well. The head attorney on that matter, an environmental law specialist, Lee Smith, will keep everyone updated as things unfold.

Also, I posted a lot of information re what the NRA and CRPA Foundation have been doing on the various attempts to ban lead ammo on post #10 here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=321642&highlight=traditional

And there was extensive discussion about this matter already here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=330117&highlight=traditional

Beelzy
08-25-2010, 3:14 PM
Why do they ask what organization I am with? (I left that blank).

It's almost like they don't want to hear from the regular folk.

MSO4MATT
08-25-2010, 3:42 PM
It has nothing to do with the animals or people...it's power, it's Soros, it's unchecked executive power to ban guns through a maze regulation. You can thank IANSA for this and the intellectual elite for trying to save you from yourself.

It's like one famous attorney general said..."you think the second amendment is gonna stop a gun ban"...?

Droc101
08-25-2010, 3:49 PM
submitted

sv_1
08-25-2010, 5:05 PM
Submitted.

Good luck enforcing it...

furyous68
08-25-2010, 5:22 PM
Submitted... hope this helps overturn the ban for using traditional ammo in certain districts here in California.

Phil3
08-25-2010, 5:43 PM
The actual petition. Read page 59. Very short on what they want the EPA to do.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/get_the_lead_out/pdfs/Final_TSCA_lead_ban_petition_8-3-10.pdf

FAQs on the petition by the same people who authored the above.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/get_the_lead_out/pdfs/Final_TSCA_lead_ban_petition_8-3-10.pdf

Read the last page, the last paragraph.

What do you believe? :rolleyes:

- Phil

Maltese Falcon
08-25-2010, 5:43 PM
Comment in. Yikes, we must remain vigilant and in defense of our rights all the time...these people just don't get it what the Constitution means.

.

Legasat
08-25-2010, 6:09 PM
The Gov't Bureaucracies (in particular the EPA) have been grabbing power for many years. If they keep going without challenge, they aren't going to need Congress any longer to create and enforce their own political will. (Yes I know...:TFH:)

gbp
08-25-2010, 6:46 PM
the epa would like to be your mama, as you don't know better and need a sitter with pacifier in hand to consul you.

i believe the nra has filed a statement indicating that the epa has no jurisdiction over ammunition per congress.

doesn't it make you all warm and fuzzy (mmmmmmmmm) knowing they are looking out for you and protecting you against yourself (meaning the epa)

Drivedabizness
08-25-2010, 7:20 PM
Done!

NovaTodd
08-25-2010, 7:26 PM
Comment submitted.

John117
08-25-2010, 7:45 PM
How is the EPA a valid legislative body?

Eleutheros
08-25-2010, 8:30 PM
Where is the EPA’s authority mentioned in the ennumerated powers that the citizens of American states delegated to the federal government in the United States Constitution?

Thomas Jefferson declared that the whole of the Constitution is summarized in its Tenth Amendment: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

What’s that? The EPA has no constitutional authority? So the Marxists who run it are a criminal organization paid with taxpayers’ dollars that were extorted to infringe the civil rights of American citizens?

Why, before you know it, they might even attempt to infringe our inalienable right to keep and bear arms.

yellowfin
08-25-2010, 8:40 PM
Can we sue and/or prosecute them for trying?

kiloechovictor
08-25-2010, 8:53 PM
Done and done.

destro360
08-26-2010, 8:28 AM
I take my three boys pheasant hunting and trap shooting. I've standardized on 20 ga because we don't need a bigger gun for the pheasant.

I shoot a Grulla, my youngest son (15 yrs) shoots a '39 LC Smith, the middle boy is stationed in Okinawa with the Corps so this year is out, I won't see him till next year The oldest boy can only hunt a couple of days a year.

I also take my youngest son's friends hunting/trap shooting. I want to spread the pro-hunting shooting "Word" and add kids who know how to hunt.

We go thru around 5 cases of target ammo a year and maybe 5 boxes of hunting ammo. I guess I've spent to much time as a Boy Scout Assistant Scout Master.

We cannot shoot steel in our double barrel shotguns as it will ruin them.

Now the numbers.

Trap shooting - just the ammo

I used to spend about $5 for a box of 25 shells (lead of course) so for three people shooting 3 boxes each (to keep shoulders from getting pounded and developing a flinch) the cost is 3 x 3 x $5/(25 rd box) = $45.00

With the current increase in trap shells my cost now is 3 x 3 x $ 6.50/(25 rd box) = $ 58.50

If I have to go to nontoxic my cost becomes 3 x 3 x (2.5 boxes of 10 round) x $ 35/10 round nontoxic) = $ 787.50 per trip for three rounds of trap for three shooters. :eek:

Hunting costs do basically the same thing because the nontoxic shells I can use cost me about $3.00 per shot. I was forced to use copper coated shot at my hunting club last year - a sign of things to come - yet I was glad they didn't demand non-toxic

I've got a better idea.

If you really want to get the lead out how about replacing all the lead pipe, lead-tin soldered pipe, lead roof flashing and lead wheel weights.

It should only cost a trillion dollars or so but at least everybody would have to Get the Lead Out and just think of how many Condors would be Saved!

lets not forget we need to get rid of solder! like circuit boards and any type of wiring/ computers.... we also will have to get rid of every single automotive battery because they have lead terminals and contain lead plates inside. oh lets not forget all the old cars/hotrods with chopped tops and lead work done to them.....:rolleyes:

bandook
08-26-2010, 9:19 AM
So, it appears that steel bullets is the way to go.
I hear steel bullets punch through bulletproof vests like butter.
Nice going EPA.

loather
08-26-2010, 9:50 AM
lets not forget we need to get rid of solder! like circuit boards and any type of wiring/ computers....

Through the RoHS initiatives that came out of Europe, nearly all electronic devices produced today will be done so using lead-free solder. At first this was a problem, but the newer lead-free solders and fluxes are actually quite good. To be honest, I don't really miss lead-based solder now I have a decent tin/antimony/silver compound.

Anyways, RoHS restricts the usage of lead, mercury, cadmium, hexavalent chromium, and a couple of polybrominated diphenyl flame retardants. The flame retardants and the hexavalent chromium I can agree with. They're nasty substances.

we also will have to get rid of every single automotive battery because they have lead terminals and contain lead plates inside.

Lead-acid batteries aren't going away any time soon. Nothing compares to the longevity, capacity, cycle count, and price of a good lead acid battery. Not even the best lithium polymer batteries can come close (and in fact, LiPo batteries are far more damaging to the environment than lead-acid batteries will ever be!).

loather
08-26-2010, 9:52 AM
So, it appears that steel bullets is the way to go.
I hear steel bullets punch through bulletproof vests like butter.
Nice going EPA.

Yeah. 'cause *I* want to destroy the bore in my firearm.

No, there are reasons why we use copper-clad lead bullets.

barrym66
08-26-2010, 2:50 PM
Didn't see this latest NSSF bulletin and request for action posted yet... this would EPA action would accept a petition to ban "traditional ammo" (i.e. lead) for ALL purposes, not just hunting, and would be a nationwide ban, not just affecting CA.

Note the very short comment period - apparently the EPA is in a hurry to get this done before the November mid-term elections. :shifty:

From http://www.nssfblog.com/epa-considering-ban-on-traditional-ammunition-take-action-now/

EPA Considering Ban on Traditional Ammunition — Take Action Now
August 25, 2010 By Larry Keane

All Gun Owners, Hunters and Shooters:

With the fall hunting season fast approaching, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) under Lisa Jackson, who was responsible for banning bear hunting in New Jersey, is now considering a petition by the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) – a leading anti-hunting organization – to ban all traditional ammunition under the Toxic Substance Control Act of 1976, a law in which Congress expressly exempted ammunition. If the EPA approves the petition, the result will be a total ban on all ammunition containing lead-core components, including hunting and target-shooting rounds. The EPA must decide to accept or reject this petition by November 1, 2010, the day before the midterm elections.

Today, the EPA has opened to public comment the CBD petition. The comment period ends on October 31, 2010.

The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) — the trade association for the firearms, ammunition, hunting and shooting sports industry — urges you to submit comment to the EPA opposing any ban on traditional ammunition. Remember, your right to choose the ammunition you hunt and shoot with is at stake.

The EPA has published the petition and relevant supplemental information as Docket ID: EPA-HQ-OPPT-2010-0681. If you would like to read the original petition and see the contents of this docket folder, please click here. In order to go directly to the ‘submit a comment’ page for this docket number, please click here.

NSSF urges you to stress the following in your opposition:

* There is no scientific evidence that the use of traditional ammunition is having an adverse impact on wildlife populations.

* Wildlife management is the proper jurisdiction of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the 50 state wildlife agencies.

* A 2008 study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on blood lead levels of North Dakota hunters confirmed that consuming game harvested with traditional ammunition does not pose a human health risk.

* A ban on traditional ammunition would have a negative impact on wildlife conservation. The federal excise tax that manufacturers pay on the sale of the ammunition (11 percent) is a primary source of wildlife conservation funding. The bald eagle’s recovery, considered to be a great conservation success story, was made possible and funded by hunters using traditional ammunition – the very ammunition organizations like the CBD are now demonizing.

* Recent statistics from the United States Fish and Wildlife Service show that from 1981 to 2006 the number of breeding pairs of bald eagles in the United States increased 724 percent. And much like the bald eagle, raptor populations throughout the United States are soaring.

Steps to take:

1. Submit comment online to the EPA.

2. Contact Lisa Jackson directly to voice your opposition to the ban:

Lisa P. Jackson
Administrator, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
1200 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20460
(202) 564-4700
Fax: (202) 501-1450
Email: jackson.lisa@epa.gov

3. Contact your congressman and senators and urge them to stop the EPA from banning ammunition.

DarthSean
08-26-2010, 3:16 PM
* Recent statistics from the United States Fish and Wildlife Service show that from 1981 to 2006 the number of breeding pairs of bald eagles in the United States increased 724 percent. And much like the bald eagle, raptor populations throughout the United States are soaring.
What's that all about? Is there another type of raptor that I've never heard of?

socal2310
08-26-2010, 3:32 PM
What's that all about? Is there another type of raptor that I've never heard of?

Raptor is a general term that can be used to refer to any bird of prey (Falcon, Hawk, Eagle, Buzzard etc). It's a much older usage than the F-22 Raptor you are no doubt referring to.

Ryan

Skipper
08-26-2010, 3:47 PM
http://web.extension.illinois.edu/state/newsdetail.cfm?NewsID=12303
http://forum.gundigestmagazine.com/tm.aspx?m=210

Many of the petitioners are relying on a North Dakota study that said lead levels were higher in people eating animals killed with lead bullets.

There are 2 flaws in this study. From the first link:
1. In fact, in their study in North Dakota, they found that the average lead levels in hunters tested was actually less than the average American.

2. The ND study did not take into account whether the people were casting their own bullets and reloading without taking proper precautions. Someone casting bullets and reloading prior to hunting season would shift the results and make it seem eating venison was the issue. This was a flawed study.

PsychGuy274
08-26-2010, 3:47 PM
Raptor is a general term that can be used to refer to any bird of prey (Falcon, Hawk, Eagle, Buzzard etc). It's a much older usage than the F-22 Raptor you are no doubt referring to.

Ryan

I'm down to go F-22 hunting. Will my .22 be enough?

gzinga
08-26-2010, 4:59 PM
this is so mongoloid.....lead comes from the dirt, is not that we crap it and make bullets from it.....it is naturally in the water, dirt, birds, plants....everywhere....

yellowfin
08-26-2010, 5:06 PM
Should we propose a ban on the EPA?

RRangel
08-26-2010, 5:23 PM
http://web.extension.illinois.edu/state/newsdetail.cfm?NewsID=12303
http://forum.gundigestmagazine.com/tm.aspx?m=210

Many of the petitioners are relying on a North Dakota study that said lead levels were higher in people eating animals killed with lead bullets.

There are 2 flaws in this study. From the first link:
1. In fact, in their study in North Dakota, they found that the average lead levels in hunters tested was actually less than the average American.

2. The ND study did not take into account whether the people were casting their own bullets and reloading without taking proper precautions. Someone casting bullets and reloading prior to hunting season would shift the results and make it seem eating venison was the issue. This was a flawed study.

The thing is that this is so common one expects to find lies in everything such extremist groups claim. It's the height of unethical.

IDPA4U
08-26-2010, 6:46 PM
So essentially this would completely destroy our 2nd amendment rights based on a BS environmental claim...right? And who makes the final call, an EPA board we did not elect, and who could care less about our vote? Seems this needs to get some major publicity very soon so public outcry is so overwhelming they drop the petition. This makes the AWB look like small potatoes. Am I off base here?

B_5GiFB9x78

inbox485
08-27-2010, 11:08 AM
Anybody tired of enviro-nazis would get a real kick out a Penn and Teller segment where they trick everybody at an environmental rally including the head organizers to sign a petition to ban water. I mean really now, it's in our lakes, our rivers, it is used by pesticide companies, nuclear facilities, petroleum refineries, and the list goes on. This stuff has to be banned before it spreads across the entire earth.

nrandell
08-27-2010, 3:37 PM
Looks like good news:

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/0/48D939B5009411038525778C00768006

The EPA denied the petition!

CDMichel
08-27-2010, 4:25 PM
EPA has denied this petition.

See: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=336341