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Rugerdaddy
08-09-2010, 8:05 AM
Three pit bulls tore through the wooden fence of my son's back yard from the neighbor's yard while my son and his family were not at their West Sacramento suburban home. They returned to find the three pit bulls still in the yard, and their own 6 month old female puppy violently attacked. The pup's throat and mouth were ripped open among other injuries.
My son has oft talked about getting a shot gun for protecting his home. Now heís more motivated, of course. If he had it last weekend when he needed it he would have shot the pit bulls immediately, which brings me to my questions:

Is there a problem with discharging a firearm in a suburban backyard to shoot dogs that have entered your yard and attacked your own pet? Does anyone know an attorney that could help with a case like this? $700 vet emergency room bill, and the pit bullsí owner denies his dogs did it, though they were still in the yard when my son got home! They had torn a hole in their own fence to get into the yard behind my sonís, then tore the hole through that fence to get to my sonís pup. The guy refuses to man up and pay the damages , which would satisfy my son, so now an attorney might be needed.

p.s. Animal Control came and investigated and said that they knew those dogs did it, but because the owner wonít admit it, they canít do anything.

Thanks to all of you for any info you can provide.

freonr22
08-09-2010, 8:09 AM
Dna test?

Maestro Pistolero
08-09-2010, 8:10 AM
Is there a problem with discharging a firearm in a suburban backyard to shoot dogs that have entered your yard and attacked your own pet?
I would shoot any dog attacking my pet without the slightest hesitation. The law would be on your side as you have a right to protect your property (the puppy) with as much force as is necessary. You can't be expected to fight off pit bulls with your bare hands. If they are aggressive, there is a huge self defense component here as well.

frankm
08-09-2010, 8:11 AM
I know if they're in the act of attacking that you can kill them. Don't know about anything with attorneys, but it looks like you have a solid case.

jdg30
08-09-2010, 8:17 AM
I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an animal if it was in my yard attacking one of my animals, especially a puppy.

On the other hand, another option would be to take a picture of them while they are in the yard for proof and seal off the point of entry while they are in your yard. Then call animal control to have them caught in your yard and there will be no question. It might help with future relations and retaliation between you and the neighbor if you handle it that way instead of killing their dogs by shooting them (No matter how much you feel like doing it).

pennys dad
08-09-2010, 8:19 AM
I would shoot any dog attacking my pet without the slightest hesitation

Brujo
08-09-2010, 8:20 AM
Animal control did nothing?? That doesn't sound right to me.

My dog got out and killed a neighbors cat (unleashed not in a yard, BTW my city has a leash law for all animals cats included). I did not see it happen, was looking for the dogs saw them on the street pulled up they jumped in the car.

Week later animal control shows up at my house (cat owner apparently was following dogs home when they saw them jump into my car and took down the plate #). My dog is now labeled as vicious, they threatened to put her down, I am told if there is any other contact with another animal she will be put down.

They even took my dog for a week called it quarantine to check her behavior with people. I'm thinking if you call hate to say this but the police file a report they will send it to animal control. (I might add when you got home the dogs where in your yard acting threatening, that way it's on record in case you feel the need to finish this story in a way not so good for the neighbors dogs.)

I'd also be careful people are crazy about their pets.

wildcard
08-09-2010, 8:20 AM
The law would be on your side as you have a right to protect your property (the puppy) with as much force as is necessary.

You can not discharge a firearm to protect property in CA.

You what you need to do.. but expect to be arrested for discharging your firearms and sued for injuring your neighbor's dogs.

Not saying it's right.. but that's the way it is.

wildcard
08-09-2010, 8:22 AM
Animal control did nothing?? That doesn't sound right to me.
(cat owner apparently was following dogs home when they saw them jump into my car and took down the plate #)

Your case is different because another person actually witnessed it.

SJgunguy24
08-09-2010, 8:23 AM
In the eyes of the law I don't think you have any legal ground to kill the dogs for attacking the puppy. The puppy is property in he eyes of the law. Now if there were children outside and the dogs went after them that's a different story all together.
This all depends of the DA of course. If I were a DA and somebody illegally discharged a firearm to save the life of their puppy who was attacked by 3 dogs who broke through a fence to get to the puppy. I couldn't bring myself to file that charge.

lawaia
08-09-2010, 8:33 AM
Gee, officer, the pitbull(s) came after me when I went into the yard to check on my dog. I had no other choice but to protect myself by shooting the dog(s).

To the owner: "I am so sorry for your loss.":rolleyes:

Super Spy
08-09-2010, 8:34 AM
I would be worried that they are a threat to me as well as my puppy. If your son has neighbors like that, a shotgun would be a good idea.

locosway
08-09-2010, 8:41 AM
"That's right officer, the dog seemed rabid, and after it attacked my dog, I thought it was going to come after me! That's why I shot the dog, it was in self defense. I was afraid that my life, or worse, my <insert loved one here> could have been in danger from that vicious animal!"

Glock22Fan
08-09-2010, 8:45 AM
I don't know the exact list, or the p.c. or whether puppies are livestock or not, but you are allowed to use deadly force against animals to protect livestock.

glockman19
08-09-2010, 8:45 AM
You would still be charged with unlawfully discharging a firearm.

I'd grab the shovel or pitchfork. a Flathead shovel could easily sever the dogs head.

Lulfas
08-09-2010, 8:49 AM
"That's right officer, the dog seemed rabid, and after it attacked my dog, I thought it was going to come after me! That's why I shot the dog, it was in self defense. I was afraid that my life, or worse, my <insert loved one here> could have been in danger from that vicious animal!"

Yeah, lie to the cops, that has no possible repercussions whatsoever.

BigDogatPlay
08-09-2010, 8:53 AM
Regardless of whether animal control did anything or not, if the dogs were found in the yard with the injured puppy, it's at least worth filing a small claim action for the vet bill and pursuing animal control to file a nuisance action on the owner of the pits for tearing through the fence if nothing else. The situation needs to be well documented as those dogs will do it again.

Shooting the dogs while in the act is an option, but it's going to vary widely from county to county. Where I live in Sonoma County it's clearly signposted at various places around the county that any dog observed attacking, molesting or chasing livestock may be shot on sight without warning. In the case of three dogs that tore through my fence to attack another animal + living out in the county, that would = three dead dogs on the spot and no one would care except maybe the owner of the dead dogs.

That doesn't work in the incorporated cities, as they all have no discharge ordinances, and if your county doesn't have the same kind of ordinance as Sonoma County then you might be SOL unless the dogs do it again and are attacking a human.

Which I'd say is a potential.

stitchnicklas
08-09-2010, 9:02 AM
i would shoot the dogs immediately....
in riverside it is legal to use a firearm in self defense vs,animal and human..

CCWFacts
08-09-2010, 9:05 AM
In the eyes of the law I don't think you have any legal ground to kill the dogs for attacking the puppy. The puppy is property in he eyes of the law.

Exactly. Could you shoot someone's dog for, say, digging a hole in your flower bed (causing property damage)? No, you couldn't; it would be an unlawful discharge in most cities. No matter how much you may love your pet, it's just property.

If there is a legitimate fear of harm to a human being (yourself, a family member (your pets are not family members)) that's different.

Glock22Fan
08-09-2010, 9:06 AM
Maybe the lawyers would like to chime in here, but the "No firearm discharge" is not an absolute crime. It is a defense against that to, say, plead self-defense. The intent is to stop plinking and shooting in the air - is it not possible that any justifiable shooting overrides it? If not, why do cops carry frearms?

jb7706
08-09-2010, 9:09 AM
Animal control did nothing?? That doesn't sound right to me.

I was caught in my back yard by a neighbors pit bull one night last year. It had jumped on top of the 6' fence and was barking aggressively, I'm convinced the only reason it did not attack me was because it was unable to figure out how to jump down. Animal control would not even take a report for 3 days, let alone respond. I had called in the past about the dogs charging the fence warning that those dogs were going to hurt me or my family if they got out, there is not even a record of the call that I know of.

Had it pressed the attack it would have been buried anywhere between 230 and 2530 grains heavier than when it entered my yard.

paradox
08-09-2010, 9:18 AM
It is OK to shoot dogs attacking your property in the City of West Sacramento:

http://qcode.us/codes/westsacramento/
9.12.010 Discharge within city limits unlawful.

Except as otherwise provided by law or this chapter, it is unlawful to discharge or fire any firearm projecting, by any means, lead or any other missiles within any portion of the incorporated area of the city. (Ord. 88-5 ß 1)

9.12.020 Exceptions.

The provisions of this chapter do not apply to:

A. Persons set forth in subsections (b), (c) or (d) of Section 12031 of the Penal Code of the state;

B. The discharge of a firearm by persons on land owned by the United States of America, the state or the county unless prohibited by such entities;

C. Persons necessarily acting in the lawful defense of persons or property; and

D. The discharge of firearms on the premises of any lawful shooting gallery, practice range, skeet field or other similar place conducted at a fixed location, either indoors or outdoors, with respect to which adequate safeguards have been provided to protect persons and property from injuries, and for which all required permits, if any, have been obtained. (Ord. 88-5 ß 2)

Glock22Fan
08-09-2010, 9:20 AM
Exactly. Could you shoot someone's dog for, say, digging a hole in your flower bed (causing property damage)? No, you couldn't; it would be an unlawful discharge in most cities. No matter how much you may love your pet, it's just property.

If there is a legitimate fear of harm to a human being (yourself, a family member (your pets are not family members)) that's different.

The question is whether a dog is livestock. It is absolutely legal to shoot dogs worrying livestock - horses, cattle, sheep, goats, chickens etc..

Maestro Pistolero
08-09-2010, 9:21 AM
Exactly. Could you shoot someone's dog for, say, digging a hole in your flower bed (causing property damage)? No, you couldn'tCorrect. that's not an aggressive animal No matter how much you may love your pet, it's just property.Not quite. According to a San Diego Police Lieutenant I just spoke with, in the case of an attack on your puppy, it becomes a clear case of straight-up self-defense. The dog's behavior is as much a risk to you as it is to the puppy.

You have no obligation to allow the neighbor's dog to destroy (kill) your property. But you my only use as much force as is necessary to defend it. In the case of aggressive pit bulls on your property, that may be a significant level of force. It's the likelihood of your own risk to injury in lawfully defending your property that makes the shooting lawful, not the protection of the property alone.

Billy Jack
08-09-2010, 9:23 AM
Three pit bulls tore through the wooden fence of my son's back yard from the neighbor's yard while my son and his family were not at their West Sacramento suburban home. They returned to find the three pit bulls still in the yard, and their own 6 month old female puppy violently attacked. The pup's throat and mouth were ripped open among other injuries.
My son has oft talked about getting a shot gun for protecting his home. Now heís more motivated, of course. If he had it last weekend when he needed it he would have shot the pit bulls immediately, which brings me to my questions:

Is there a problem with discharging a firearm in a suburban backyard to shoot dogs that have entered your yard and attacked your own pet? Does anyone know an attorney that could help with a case like this? $700 vet emergency room bill, and the pit bullsí owner denies his dogs did it, though they were still in the yard when my son got home! They had torn a hole in their own fence to get into the yard behind my sonís, then tore the hole through that fence to get to my sonís pup. The guy refuses to man up and pay the damages , which would satisfy my son, so now an attorney might be needed.

p.s. Animal Control came and investigated and said that they knew those dogs did it, but because the owner wonít admit it, they canít do anything.

Thanks to all of you for any info you can provide.

First, let this fellow Vet. thank you for your years of service to our country.

Your son can sue the neighbor in Small Claims Court. He does not need an attorney. Small filing fee and fee to a Process Server. Take photos of the fence, your pet. Hopefully he or the Vet. took before photos. Bring a copy of the Vet. bill. You will need to SDT a copy of the Animal Control report.

People tend to confuse criminal with civil. A/C did not have sufficient evidence to issue a citation. Civil only requires a preponderance of the evidence.

I would also suggest he push A/C for a citation for the neighbor for not keeping them within their yard if this occurs again or if they get to the street. If there are small children at your sons home and the neighbor will not 'man up' he might consider a TRO and a PRO against the neighbor. If he is not willing to take responsibility for his animals he is not a good neighbor.

WASP or Pepper spray can be effective in an animal attack. If a weapon is his only recourse, that will have to be his decision. If the neighbor can establish less than deadly force could have been used he could successfully sue your son for the death of the dogs. I know, civil law is lots of fun.

Any questions, use our site to communicate.

Billy Jack
'The Force is strong with this one'


www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

BKinzey
08-09-2010, 9:32 AM
You go outside to confront 3 dogs that are attacking your dog. You yell at them and they do not break off the attack and run back into their yard. It would seem fairly straight forward that the dogs would exhibit aggressive behavior towards you when confronted. Certainly if you shot one and the others did not run away.

To go out and engage 3 aggressive dogs of medium to large build with a shovel would be a very bad decision.

steadyrock
08-09-2010, 9:33 AM
Very interesting. I'll be watching to see how this comes out, as I have a similar worry at my house. Neighbors go out of town a lot, and for some reason when they do there is always an aggressive pit hybrid in their backyard (not theirs, I think it is a friend's). More than once this weekend the pit tried to come through my fence after my 10 month old puppy, barking aggressively and snarling. The fence is rickety, and it tore off a few boards and was through up to its ears. A quick golf swing to the face with the back of my shovel made it back off, but I don't think it'll learn its lesson. It made me wonder about my legal limits and liabilities in dispatching the animal, either by blunt force or other means if necessary.

redcliff
08-09-2010, 9:53 AM
People vs Lee is usually used as a defense on these types of charges.

http://lawlink.com/research/caselevel3/82588

CCWFacts
08-09-2010, 10:02 AM
The question is whether a dog is livestock. It is absolutely legal to shoot dogs worrying livestock - horses, cattle, sheep, goats, chickens etc..

Ah, interesting idea. Hadn't thought of that. "Pet attorney" would need to resolve that one...

bone1
08-09-2010, 10:20 AM
People vs Lee was about self defense of human against dog. The question in the OP is more about defending your dogs against other dogs.

California Civil Code section 3341 (pdf) (http://www.theanimalcouncil.com/files/CALIFORNIA_CIVIL_DAMAGES.pdf)
Any person on finding any dog or dogs, or other animal, not on the premises of the owner or possessor of such dog or dogs, or other animal, worrying, wounding, or killing any bovine animals, swine, horses, mules, burros, sheep, angora or cashmere goats, may, at the time of finding such dog or dogs, or other animal, kill the same, and the owner or owners thereof shall sustain no action for damages against any person so killing such dog or dogs, or other animal.

Dogs are not included in the enumerated list protected in 3341. However, Sabin v. Smith (1915) (pdf) (http://www.loislaw.com/livepublish8923/doclink.htp?alias=CAAPP&cite=147+P.+1180) in discussing that section states:

There is nothing contained in either of the subdivisions of the statute [3341] which in any way limits or takes away this right. The section was not intended to, nor does it, abridge the common law right of a person to defend his domestic animals against the attacks of dogs, or to kill such dogs when the circumstances warrant the belief that his property is in peril. At the common law the justification for the killing was complete when it appeared that the dog was engaged in worrying and terrifying domestic animals in their own lawful inclosure, and where the necessity of the killing in order to protect the property was apparent.


At the time of the Sabin case, it appears that poultry was not included in the list of protected animals - the above language states that the domestic animal does not need to be specifically listed if it meets the above criteria.

Of course this only speaks to the civil issue. Whether you'd run afoul of PC 246.3, I think you'd have a problem if there was no threat to yourself or another. Though generally I'd think any threat to your own dog in your own yard with you present would reasonably be a threat to yourself.

Ed_in_Sac
08-09-2010, 10:33 AM
Being a Sacramento resident, this is disturbing. Hope you son goes to small claims court for the money. Glad the dog survived, hopefully this does not escalate into a more serious injury. First thing I would do is get outdoor security cameras and record 24/7. Let your neighbor know you have done so!

Maestro Pistolero
08-09-2010, 10:42 AM
People vs Lee was about self defense of human against dog. The question in the OP is more about defending your dogs against other dogs.

California Civil Code section 3341 (pdf) (http://www.theanimalcouncil.com/files/CALIFORNIA_CIVIL_DAMAGES.pdf)


Dogs are not included in the enumerated list protected in 3341. However, Sabin v. Smith (1915) (pdf) (http://www.loislaw.com/livepublish8923/doclink.htp?alias=CAAPP&cite=147+P.+1180) in discussing that section states:



At the time of the Sabin case, it appears that poultry was not included in the list of protected animals - the above language states that the domestic animal does not need to be specifically listed if it meets the above criteria.

Of course this only speaks to the civil issue. Whether you'd run afoul of PC 246.3, I think you'd have a problem if there was no threat to yourself or another. Though generally I'd think any threat to your own dog in your own yard with you present would reasonably be a threat to yourself.
Excellent. The bolded (just above) mirrors what the Police Lieutenant told me.

Rugerdaddy
08-09-2010, 11:13 AM
Well, I thought I'd get two or three responses by this afternoon. You guys are all great. Do any of you have jobs? :smilielol5: Just kidding! Thanks again. I'll update when I can.

I did call the office of an attorney that specializes in animal attacks. I thought they might at least steer me in the right direction. When they found out a human wasn't attacked the receptionist couldn't hang up fast enough! She went from "friendly and helpful" to downright RUDE in one nanosecond. :rolleyes:

destro360
08-09-2010, 11:16 AM
i would consider 3 medium-large breed dogs in my back yard attacking anything to be a threat to me, my life, my loved ones and property. i would shoot all 3 given the right oportunity.

Decoligny
08-09-2010, 11:25 AM
Exactly. Could you shoot someone's dog for, say, digging a hole in your flower bed (causing property damage)? No, you couldn't; it would be an unlawful discharge in most cities. No matter how much you may love your pet, it's just property.

If there is a legitimate fear of harm to a human being (yourself, a family member (your pets are not family members)) that's different.

It isn't illegal to "discharge" a crossbow within city limits.

http://www.megahowto.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Crossbow.jpg

bambam8d1
08-09-2010, 11:36 AM
damn I wish there werent so many damn retarded pitbull owners out there. Those people give pitbulls and their owners a bad name. Actually I change that, all dog owners.... I wish there werent so many retarded dog owners in general lol. I have a douche bag neighbor who lets his lab out of the front door, run around the street to **** and piss everywhere then it goes back inside. The guy does it everyday. I dont even take my dog (pitbull) outside to play in the frontyard ever just to avoid this dumb *** and his dog.

ir0nclash86
08-09-2010, 11:39 AM
If it was 1 dog I would grab my pepper spray real quick or my C2 taser. 1 viscious dog is bad enough but 3 dogs is insane. For you to fight off 3 dogs if they came after you would be downright impossible. If those 3 dogs attacked my dog I would run out with pepper spray in my left and handgun in the right and have my wife call cops. I would attempt to quickly hose down the dogs with pepper spray and if that didnt stop the dogs I would use my handgun. That way I can say I took a non lethal action first before using deadly force. I'm pretty sure though you can just skip the pepper spray and go straight to shooting since youre outnumbered and they charge you. The last thing on my mind would be worrying about if its legal or not to discharge a weapon.

bambam8d1
08-09-2010, 11:42 AM
could you guarantee where all of those bullets would be flying if you were firing a handgun and three different dogs as they were all attacking you? Id be a bit concerned about where all those bullets were going?

stitchnicklas
08-09-2010, 12:10 PM
i had 2 dogs-german Shepard and a rottweiler- attack my wifes rabbit in my back yard,when i went out to stop them the rott turned towards me growling with blood in its month,it took 4 steps and i lit it up with a 380 Beretta,dropped dead and threw the body in the trash with the rabbit,Shepard was long gone,no tags so no tracking.no one called the cops in the middle of the day so i let things be and said sorry to the wife for her rabbit...

Joe
08-09-2010, 12:19 PM
i had 2 dogs-german Shepard and a rottweiler- attack my wifes rabbit in my back yard,when i went out to stop them the rott turned towards me growling with blood in its month,it took 4 steps and i lit it up with a 380 Beretta,dropped dead and threw the body in the trash with the rabbit,Shepard was long gone,no tags so no tracking.no one called the cops in the middle of the day so i let things be and said sorry to the wife for her rabbit...

my god

ir0nclash86
08-09-2010, 12:32 PM
i had 2 dogs-german Shepard and a rottweiler- attack my wifes rabbit in my back yard,when i went out to stop them the rott turned towards me growling with blood in its month,it took 4 steps and i lit it up with a 380 Beretta,dropped dead and threw the body in the trash with the rabbit,Shepard was long gone,no tags so no tracking.no one called the cops in the middle of the day so i let things be and said sorry to the wife for her rabbit...

Good shooting. How many bullets did it take to put him down?

ZenMasta
08-09-2010, 12:40 PM
Shoot first take pictures later. Unless you are a hobbit and have a decent aim you wont have to worry about the bullets going anywhere besides in the dog and IF it goes through, into the dirt or concrete.

Wherryj
08-09-2010, 1:27 PM
Gee, officer, the pitbull(s) came after me when I went into the yard to check on my dog after having witnessed them being attacked by my neighbor's pitbulls. Iwas so afraid for my life when I saw them charging at me with that wild look in their eyes had no other choice but to protect myself by shooting the dog(s).

To the owner: "I am so sorry for your loss.":rolleyes:
Like this?

stix213
08-09-2010, 2:10 PM
I'm pretty sure you would be cool to shoot the pit bulls if they were in the act of attacking the puppy. I'm not sure if you get home, your puppy is severely injured from earlier, and 3 pit bulls are just chilling in the shade waiting to get kicked back to their yard, if it would be cool to shoot them in that situation.

Untamed1972
08-09-2010, 2:13 PM
I'm pretty sure you would be cool to shoot the pit bulls if they were in the act of attacking the puppy. I'm not sure if you get home, your puppy is severely injured from earlier, and 3 pit bulls are just chilling in the shade waiting to get kicked back to their yard, if it would be cool to shoot them in that situation.


But...if you come home...see them in the yard. Go out armed and ready to shoo them back thru the hole in the fence and they get agressive towards you.....then it's go bang time x3!

steadyrock
08-09-2010, 2:16 PM
I'm pretty sure you would be cool to shoot the pit bulls if they were in the act of attacking the puppy. I'm not sure if you get home, your puppy is severely injured from earlier, and 3 pit bulls are just chilling in the shade waiting to get kicked back to their yard, if it would be cool to shoot them in that situation.

Dead dogs tell no tales, and dead pits make angels smile.

Corbin Dallas
08-09-2010, 2:32 PM
"That's right officer, the dog seemed rabid, and after it attacked my dog, I thought it was going it started to come after me! That's why I shot the dog, it was in self defense. I was afraid that my life, or worse, my <insert loved one here> could have been in danger from that vicious animal!"

Here, I fixed it for you.

Colt-45
08-09-2010, 2:38 PM
I love country living.

tpuig
08-09-2010, 4:10 PM
I'm guessing that a big can of Bear spray aimed at the hole in the fence might dissuade the dogs from paying another visit...

Ron-Solo
08-09-2010, 4:28 PM
My department (LASD) allows us to shoot dogs if they are an immediate threat to humans, but not other dogs. That would be an out of policy shooting for us. Keep in mind, this is policy, not law, but it is based on the results of previous litigation.

galekowitz
08-09-2010, 5:10 PM
NSFW for language. But this drives the point home.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Aptl4jXYIIs&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Aptl4jXYIIs&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

yelohamr
08-09-2010, 5:19 PM
I know if they're in the act of attacking that you can kill them. Don't know about anything with attorneys, but it looks like you have a solid case.

I could be wrong, but I think if you are attacked by attorneys on your property, you can shoot them.:)

gunsmith
08-09-2010, 6:30 PM
I doubt a Jury would convict you of doing whatever is necessary to protect your puppy against a pack of pit bulls

SJgunguy24
08-09-2010, 7:01 PM
Maybe the lawyers would like to chime in here, but the "No firearm discharge" is not an absolute crime. It is a defense against that to, say, plead self-defense. The intent is to stop plinking and shooting in the air - is it not possible that any justifiable shooting overrides it? If not, why do cops carry frearms?

No it's not absolute. There are reasons one can discharge a firearm within city limits.


I don't know the exact list, or the p.c. or whether puppies are livestock or not, but you are allowed to use deadly force against animals to protect livestock.

Live stock on a farm or ranch is different. That is a commodity and a means of survival, whether it be food or money from the sale of milk, meat, eggs, etc. A dog in the city is simply property, nothing more, nothing less.


I doubt a Jury would convict you of doing whatever is necessary to protect your puppy against a pack of pit bulls

While shooting the dogs may have been the "right thing to do", if the charge is illegal discharge of a firearm in city limits, then that would be guilty.
A dog is not a person.

tyrist
08-09-2010, 8:01 PM
It is a bad idea and would vary depending on where you live. You are opening yourself up to a huge problem for a pet.

Also LE Officers generally are not permitted to discharge firearms to protect only property (aka dogs). We can however put injured animals down as we are not allowed to let them "suffer".

advocatusdiaboli
08-09-2010, 8:13 PM
In the eyes of the law I don't think you have any legal ground to kill the dogs for attacking the puppy. The puppy is property in he eyes of the law. Now if there were children outside and the dogs went after them that's a different story all together.
This all depends of the DA of course. If I were a DA and somebody illegally discharged a firearm to save the life of their puppy who was attacked by 3 dogs who broke through a fence to get to the puppy. I couldn't bring myself to file that charge.

I am sorry I cannot quote the law right now on the Castle Doctrine, but I thought there was something in there about property but it might be tied to people being there with it when it's threatened. A fenced backyard is part of the castle--as proof of my inclination to say this, I offer up that you can carry loaded in it as it is private.

tuolumnejim
08-09-2010, 8:20 PM
I would shoot any dog attacking my pet without the slightest hesitation

Same here.

advocatusdiaboli
08-09-2010, 8:21 PM
But...if you come home...see them in the yard. Go out armed and ready to shoo them back thru the hole in the fence and they get agressive towards you.....then it's go bang time x3!

I don't mean to be gory here but Pit Bulls are serious fighting machines. Don't take those dogs lightly--they have been genetically bred for aggressiveness and tenacious fighting. Strong jaws. They have no fear of man. Better be carrying something whose caliber begins with .357 or .4--no 9mm on pits because they'll be moving fast at you all at once and your shots won't go where you want. 12 gauge might work but getting three shots off on a pump would be challenging. Dogs are much faster than humans in running and reflexes--frighteningly so. Bear that in mind if you choose to engage them and don't get close--they'll close the distance and be on you in a blink and if a Pit Bull gets a lock on your arm with the weapon, you could well be toast as the other two will be at your throat.

P.S. I would not hesitate to shoot if a Pit attacked my Springers in my yard. Sometimes you have to draw the line and stick up for your kin and trust the community will understand the honor and obligation of it.

Bob Ragen
08-09-2010, 8:22 PM
1. Did the dogs forcefully enter property, yes.

2. Did they have the means by which to do great bodily harm, yes.

3. Did they demonstrate the intent to do great bodily harm, yes.

4. Were you in fear for your life, yes.

When you went into your backyard to see what was happening if they were acting in an agressive manner and met the criteria for self defense, I'd shoot and be more than willing to let a jury of 12 judge me. People love puppies. And this site has contacts for some excellent lawyers.

Once the damage is done and they are no longer a threat you can not use deadly force.

As far as Animal Control doing nothing, everyone answers to someone, call your city counselmen or county board member, go to their board meetings and tell them your concerns regarding the lack of concern by they're subordinates. Give them pictures regardless of how gruesome they may be and a police report number. The last thing they need is a lawsuit due to in action on their part.

SJgunguy24
08-09-2010, 8:33 PM
I am sorry I cannot quote the law right now on the Castle Doctrine, but I thought there was something in there about property but it might be tied to people being there with it when it's threatened. A fenced backyard is part of the castle--as proof of my inclination to say this, I offer up that you can carry loaded in it as it is private.

Yes, you can carry a loaded gun in your secured fenced yard. Does that mean you can discharge a firearm to defend a piece of property? That would be no. A dog and a stereo are the same as CA is concerned.

California Castle doctrine.

THE USE OF FIREARMS IN DEFENSE OF LIFE AND PROPERTY
California Firearms Laws 2007 27
The question of whether use of a firearm is justified for self-defense cannot be reduced to a simple
list of factors. This section is based on the instructions generally given to the jury in a criminal case
where self-defense is claimed and illustrates the general rules regarding use of firearms in selfdefense.
Use of a Firearm or Other Deadly Force in Defense of Life and Body
The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist the attempt
to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a reasonable person in the same or
similar situation would believe that (a) the person killed intended to commit a forcible and lifethreatening
crime; (b) there was imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the
person acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself or herself or another
from death or a forcible and life-threatening crime. Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are
examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes.
Self-Defense Against Assault
It is lawful for a person being assaulted to defend himself or herself from attack if he or she has
reasonable grounds for believing, and does in fact believe, that he or she will suffer bodily injury.
In doing so, he or she may use such force, up to deadly force, as a reasonable person in the same or
similar circumstances would believe necessary to prevent great bodily injury or death. An assault
with fists does not justify use of a deadly weapon in self-defense unless the person being assaulted
believes, and a reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances would also believe, that the
assault is likely to inflict great bodily injury.
It is lawful for a person who has grounds for believing, and does in fact believe, that great bodily
injury is about to be inflicted upon another to protect the victim from attack. In so doing, the person
may use such force as reasonably necessary to prevent the injury. Deadly force is only considered
reasonable to prevent great bodily injury or death.
NOTE: The use of excessive force to counter an assault may result in civil or criminal penalties.
Protecting Oneís Home
A person may defend his or her home against anyone who attempts to enter in a violent manner
intending violence to any person in the home. The amount of force that may be used in resisting such
entry is limited to that which would appear necessary to a reasonable person in the same or similar
circumstances to resist the violent entry. One is not bound to retreat, even though a retreat might
safely be made. One may resist force with force, increasing it in proportion to the intruderís
persistence and violence, if the circumstances apparent to the occupant would cause a reasonable
person in the same or similar situation to fear for his or her safety.
The occupant may use a firearm when resisting the intruderís attempt to commit a forcible and lifethreatening
crime against anyone in the home provided that a reasonable person in the same or
similar situation would believe that (a) the intruder intends to commit a forcible and life-threatening
crime; (b) there is imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the occupant acts
under the belief that use of a firearm is necessary to save himself or herself or another from death
or great bodily injury. Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are examples of forcible and lifeCalifornia
Firearms Laws 2007 28
threatening crimes.
Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her
residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily
injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person,
not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an
unlawful and forcible entry had occurred. Great bodily injury means a significant or substantial
physical injury. (Penal Code ß 198.5.)
NOTE: If the presumption is rebutted by contrary evidence, the occupant may be criminally
liable for an unlawful assault or homicide.
Defense of Property
The lawful occupant of real property has the right to request a trespasser to leave the premises.
If the trespasser does not do so within a reasonable time, the occupant may use force to eject the
trespasser.
The amount of force that may be used to eject a trespasser is limited to that which a
reasonable person would believe to be necessary under the same or similar circumstances.
Limitations on the Use of Force in Self-Defense
The right of self-defense ceases when there is no further danger from an assailant. Thus, where a
person attacked under circumstances initially justifying self-defense renders the attacker incapable
of inflicting further injuries, the law of self-defense ceases and no further force may be used.
The right of self-defense is not initially available to a person who assaults another. However, if
such person attempts to stop further combat and clearly informs the adversary of his or her desire
for peace but the opponent nevertheless continues the fight, the right of self-defense returns and is
the same as the right of any other person being assaulted.

gunsmith
08-09-2010, 9:26 PM
I witnessed a pit get shot by NYPD in the early eighties.
It was a huge pit trained for fighting, it was a real menace and the crackhead dealers that owned it got off on it killing neighborhood dogs/cats.
It grabbed a dog and killed it, never letting it go. Cops showed up and 3 cops emptied .38's into it for 5 minutes, reloading at least twice before it stopped moving, it took quite awhile to die.

tenpercentfirearms
08-09-2010, 9:29 PM
Taft PD would give me a medal for wasting three pit bulls that busted into my back yard and tried to attack me.

And that is the key. They tried to attack you.

I would never hesitate to shoot a dog that was attacking one of my dogs in the act.

Josey Wales
08-09-2010, 9:36 PM
SHOOT THE POOCH(S)!

morfeeis
08-09-2010, 9:41 PM
Gee, officer, the pitbull(s) came after me when I went into the yard to check on my dog. I had no other choice but to protect myself by shooting the dog(s).

To the owner: "I am so sorry for your loss.":rolleyes:
beat me to it....... that would have been my story

IrishPirate
08-09-2010, 9:50 PM
I'd make sure the dogs found their way onto my property again and I'd be waiting with 00 buck. Sue the bastard, he obviously doesn't treat his Pit Bulls right. They aren't violent dogs by nature. They are territorial, sure, but so is a Golden Retriever. The difference is that Pit Bulls are CAPABLE of more damage because of their physical traits. That doesn't mean that they are more prone to violence though. I had a Pit that stayed at home while my mom ran a day care. The dog had 8-10 kids jumping on it and playing with it all day and never once barked, bit or growled at any of them. I hate when people get Pit Bulls and make them mean. The owner should come down with an accute case of lead poisoning too....

BKinzey
08-09-2010, 9:56 PM
... Pit Bulls can be serious fighting machines. Don't take those dogs lightly--they have been genetically bred for aggressiveness and tenacious fighting. <- FUD Strong jaws. They have no fear of man. <- FUD

They aren't any more aggressive than their owners train them to be.

Falstaff
08-09-2010, 9:58 PM
Might be time to throw some treats over the fence....

Falstaff
08-09-2010, 10:07 PM
They aren't any more aggressive than their owners train them to be.

Yep. That's the problem....

Ron-Solo
08-09-2010, 10:14 PM
Might be time to throw some treats over the fence....

People need to STOP hinting at throwing poison over the fence. It's a FELONY. Several posts of this nature have already been deleted from this thread.

a1c
08-09-2010, 10:20 PM
Please stop the FUD. It's perfectly legal in CA to discharge a firearm to defend your person or livestock (that includes pets) if an animal - wild or domestic - attacks them on your property.

thayne
08-09-2010, 11:03 PM
People need to STOP hinting at throwing poison over the fence. It's a FELONY. Several posts of this nature have already been deleted from this thread.

not to mention chicken ****! Go after the owner not the dogs. Anyone who poisons dogs should rot in prison and burn in hell.

Shooting them in the act is another story. Id do it in a heartbeat.

Ryan C
08-09-2010, 11:19 PM
isn't discharging a shotgun different than discharging a rife or pistol round in city limits

resonance
08-10-2010, 12:29 AM
I used to hunt wild boar with my Henry .44 MAG lever action rifle...like a pit bull, boar are mean and stupid, like some pit bull owners...a .44 slug will leave a hole you can put your fist into and not get your hand wet...and a lever action will drop one pit bull a second....Im thinking, if the dogs are corn fed....like the boar....hang them (after gutting) in your smoke pit or in the deep freeze for bull burgers .....hell, even invite the owner over for a bar-b-Q in the summer...makes for good neighbor relations...

Jpach
08-10-2010, 1:19 AM
Good to hear your dog is OK.

If my dog was being attacked by 3 pit bulls I would have no problem blasting them all to hell. No doubt about that.

I hope that never happens though. I cant stand the thought of my dog getting hurt like that. Hes extremely smart and is like my little brother. Id strangle the attacking dogs if I had to, one at a time.

As others have suggested, sewsue the neighbors ***. I dont get how the neighbor could have denied that his dogs did anything when they broke into the back yard, your dog was all torn up and THEY WERE STILL THERE! What a joke. He'll get his.


Edit:sleepy spelling :p

KylaGWolf
08-10-2010, 2:00 AM
Tell your son take the guy to small claims court and not only sue for the vet bill but also for repair of the fence.

NightOwl
08-10-2010, 4:54 AM
sew the neighbors ***

Well. That's an interesting suggestion, and though it's unquestionably the most novel idea of this thread...ok ok, you win. I vote for this idea.

goodlookin1
08-10-2010, 5:45 AM
I had a similar incident at my house. A neighbors brother always came over and brought his twin pit bulls. They were enormous! Their cat got loose (I thought it was my next door neighbors cat) and was chased into our front yard and brutally torn apart. I saw it and heard the noises of that poor cat. I thought about running back into the house and blowing those pieces of s*** away (I hate pitbulls).....we have kids on our block that play out front all the time and I had a pregnant wife at the time. But my better judgment got ahold of me. Instead, I went back inside and called animal control. They came out, talked to the owner and warned them that they are liable for all damages if an accident were to happen and advised them not to bring them back. I asked the sheriff that came if it would have been legal for me to run back into the house to grab my shotgun and kill the dogs. They said in this case that since it didnt involve the dogs attacking a person, I could have been sued by the dog's owner and I **might** get in trouble from the county for discharging the gun in incorporated territory in a non life-threatening situation. PLUS: They added that if I had to run back into the house to get my gun, that would have put me outside the realm of immediate danger (because I told them I was scared they might have attacked me) and then coming back outside to kill the dogs would have been viewed as "pre-meditated" due to the fact that i was safe inside. Of couse, this is all based on the fact that no one else outside was getting hurt or attacked.

Just adding this in for discussion. In free states, i'm sure this would play out differently. But here in this communist state, our hands are pretty much tied. I live in a more conservative area in Placer county, but still suburbia.

tankerman
08-10-2010, 6:04 AM
I don't know the exact list, or the p.c. or whether puppies are livestock or not, but you are allowed to use deadly force against animals to protect livestock.
That's a good one.........so you can't shoot a coyote or mountain lion for attacking sheep or cattle. :rolleyes: or a racoon attacking chickens. :rolleyes:

tenpercentfirearms
08-10-2010, 6:10 AM
Here is a story for you told to me in third hand.

A woman comes home from somewhere and hears some noise in the back yard. The neighbors large dog has jumped the fence and has her little dog in his mouth, tearing it all to hell. She starts to kick the large dog and it won't release. She screams.

The husband comes out and proceeds to do the same. Kicking and punching the large dog. No effect. He then gets out his trusty pocket knife and guts the dog. Eventually the large dog's eyes start to change and it looses it energy and then collapses.

The couple pick up their dog and immediately get ready to head to the vet. The neighbor has now peaked her head over the wall and asks what she is supposed to do with her dog. The man replies, "I don't care" and leaves.

Maybe a firearm is bringing about a possible negligent discharge. So if necessary, you might want to use something other than a firearm.

Also keep in mind that talking to cops after the fact about possible scenarios isn't necessarily the best advice. Cops like to tell people when robbed to just do what the guy says. However, very, very few people are actually ever prosecuted for actually blowing the guy away.

What they tell you to do publicly and what you can actually do are usually not the same.

Again, if the dogs in the act, I say get real close and do what you have to do.

If I went back into my house, armed myself, came back out side, got within range of the dogs to remove my pet, and the dogs were still acting vicious, I would feel my life was in immanent danger. Like hell some cop is going to tell me that I should have stayed in the house and called them while my family pet was getting ripped to shreds in my yard.

Also a good boot to the head might work too.

Additionally, I would definitely seek to help out any law abiding gun owner who protected their family pet with a firearm should the Calguns Foundation get involved.

There is right and there is wrong. Defending your family pet that is properly contained in your yard from dangerous domestic animals that unlawfully gain access is right.

Now a coyote jumps your back fence and darts off with your puppy, I don't blame the coyote so much. Domesticated dogs that are someone's responsibility, they need to be held accountable.

goodlookin1
08-10-2010, 6:27 AM
Here is a story for you told to me in third hand.

A woman comes home from somewhere and hears some noise in the back yard. The neighbors large dog has jumped the fence and has her little dog in his mouth, tearing it all to hell. She starts to kick the large dog and it won't release. She screams.

The husband comes out and proceeds to do the same. Kicking and punching the large dog. No effect. He then gets out his trusty pocket knife and guts the dog. Eventually the large dog's eyes start to change and it looses it energy and then collapses.

The couple pick up their dog and immediately get ready to head to the vet. The neighbor has now peaked her head over the wall and asks what she is supposed to do with her dog. The man replies, "I don't care" and leaves.

Maybe a firearm is bringing about a possible negligent discharge. So if necessary, you might want to use something other than a firearm.

Also keep in mind that talking to cops after the fact about possible scenarios isn't necessarily the best advice. Cops like to tell people when robbed to just do what the guy says. However, very, very few people are actually ever prosecuted for actually blowing the guy away.

What they tell you to do publicly and what you can actually do are usually not the same.

Again, if the dogs in the act, I say get real close and do what you have to do.

If I went back into my house, armed myself, came back out side, got within range of the dogs to remove my pet, and the dogs were still acting vicious, I would feel my life was in immanent danger. Like hell some cop is going to tell me that I should have stayed in the house and called them while my family pet was getting ripped to shreds in my yard.

Also a good boot to the head might work too.

Additionally, I would definitely seek to help out any law abiding gun owner who protected their family pet with a firearm should the Calguns Foundation get involved.

There is right and there is wrong. Defending your family pet that is properly contained in your yard from dangerous domestic animals that unlawfully gain access is right.

Now a coyote jumps your back fence and darts off with your puppy, I don't blame the coyote so much. Domesticated dogs that are someone's responsibility, they need to be held accountable.

For what it's worth, I am in 100% agreement with you.

I just dont think this state sees eye to eye with us....

glbtrottr
08-10-2010, 7:12 AM
Damned this story conflicts me.

Not long ago, one of the clubs we do dog training in developed into the training director mixing his personal business with our club, and found him bringing a massive pitbull to our training field for "obedience training".

Turns out the dog had been trained for personal protection (i.e. Biting a bad guy).

There were many problems with this. For one, pitbulls (or the bully breeds) generally SUCKK at targeting, so the dog bites anywhere and everywhere he can. Worse, the dog had lame obedience, and reinforcing it by giving him a bite when he showed the slightest "appropriate" behavior was even worse. I would not suit up for the dog; it was against the intent of the sport we train in.

Another decoy who "didn't mind" got pushed by the dog a bit too enthusiastically, and as he fell back, the dog missed the suit...but was able to find our decoy's shoe and happily bite. Not a pretty scene. Another decoy was brought in another time, not told of the dog's condition, was also pushed back, and found himself on his back with the dog reaching inside the bitesuit around the decoy's stomach. One good chomp is all it takes.

Regardless of all the humane crap we talk about, most bully breeds do have a genetic predisposition for aggression of the human or dog kind, by breeding, with intention. It's our job as dog owners to extinguish it / kill it for a socialized dog if that's what we want. A lot of owners purchase them to encourage it and are not accountable for its result.

I really hate this.

If we're going to train dogs for the sports we're in (Mondio and French ring in our case), or even just for personal protection, we're taking on a HUGE liability. Worse than a gun - marksmanship at least requires you have some semblance of aim and pull the trigger; dogs are often a bit less predictable.

I *must* secure my dogs within the confines of my property, have them under control at all times, have them in their kennels, or face their escape, and resulting lawsuit in an unfortunate event.

If my dogs are destroying / killing someone (they wouldn't without me around) I would expect someone to capture / destroy them. It would suck. It would also be my fault; I have fired more than one housekeeper for not following instructions on this.

Wulf
08-10-2010, 7:25 AM
As to the legality. It really seems like a wobbler. So basically it would boil down to how safely it was done, and the political/social climate of the jurisdiction.

Where I live, we have had several high profile pit attacks and the overall politics of the area are reasonably conservative and not overtly gun hostile. If you capped a hostile pit in your backyard in any kind of reasonably safe fashion, I wouldn't foresee a problem.

If you lived in Frisco and you shot a dog feeding in your trash can using a 300winmag without a back stop in sight, you'd likely be f'ed.

IIWM, with kids, I'd have a shotgun near the back door, loaded with something much lighter than 00, near the back door.

Stonewalker
08-10-2010, 7:26 AM
Pits are especially dangerous because of their tenacity, bite and power.. Their 'death bite' has already been talked about here, but one thing nobody has mentioned is how hard it is to stop them once they've begun attacking. In most police reports involving an attacking pit, it takes multiple shots to get the dog to let go. Not die or collapse, just let go. That is why I've decided if I ever see a pit attacking a person around my house I won't hesitate to use deadly force. Also, no pits allowed in/near/around my house.

Yes they can be sweet dogs, but do yourself a favor and read up on canine psychology and how the pit was bred. Learn how to you keep your kids and animals safe from attacks. Most attacks happen when the pit is around unfamiliar people or in an unfamiliar place. That's why I don't allow pits at my home. All dogs can have a violent streak, pits are just so powerful and their attack is more deadly than other dog's.

This is an informative website on the subject - http://dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs.htm

BluNorthern
08-10-2010, 7:38 AM
Maybe you could get the neighbor to take their dogs to the local dog park, maybe this officer will be hanging around and take care of the problem for you.
http://www.wbaltv.com/r/24513015/detail.html

dixieD
08-10-2010, 8:41 AM
I think the situation would be more like while armed on your property you tried to separate the dog from the puppy when it turned on you, started biting at you, you feared for your safety, and duly dispatched the violent animal. The dog could have been rabid, I don't really know, but it was tearing my puppy apart and then began threatening me with the same.

I was once bitten in the back of the knee by some large breed of herding dog. It was witnessed by my brother and the dogs owner. After cleaning up I went to talk to the owner, but they already packed up their stuff and left for home. I tracked them down, and had their dog quarantined, etc. What made me more upset was the d**** bag owner running from their responsibility.

armandolo
08-10-2010, 8:53 AM
what bothers me is the fact that if you hit your dog, its an animal cruelty of some sort and you could be arrested, but a dog mauling your dog - gee, just a property damage. Screwed up ...

Stonewalker
08-10-2010, 8:59 AM
what bothers me is the fact that if you hit your dog, its an animal cruelty of some sort and you could be arrested, but a dog mauling your dog - gee, just a property damage. Screwed up ...

Very good point. I'm sure that would be a good thing to remember for a court case if you had to use deadly force to defend an animal.

Johnny.B.Good
08-10-2010, 10:06 AM
i had 2 dogs-german Shepard and a rottweiler- attack my wifes rabbit in my back yard,when i went out to stop them the rott turned towards me growling with blood in its month,it took 4 steps and i lit it up with a 380 Beretta,dropped dead and threw the body in the trash with the rabbit,Shepard was long gone,no tags so no tracking.no one called the cops in the middle of the day so i let things be and said sorry to the wife for her rabbit...

Nice shooting. ;)

What kind of DA would file charges against someone for defending the life of their animal from three vicious dogs on their own property? Any dog owner (or pet owner for that matter) would intercede to save the life of their beloved animal, and why should they be forced to do so with anything less than a firearm? Crazy.

I would never go up against a pitbull with a shovel if I had access to a gun, much less three of them. Talk about risking your life.

What if a police officer had happened by while this incident was taking place? I can't imagine him letting the puppy die to avoid discharging his firearm, nor can I imagine him wading in with his nightstick. Pepper spray maybe, but do most citizens own pepper spray? I don't...but perhaps I should.

Tough situation, my sympathies to the OP and his family.

inbox485
08-10-2010, 10:26 AM
You can not discharge a firearm to protect property in CA.

You what you need to do.. but expect to be arrested for discharging your firearms and sued for injuring your neighbor's dogs.

Not saying it's right.. but that's the way it is.

The law would beg to differ with you: CA PC 197

Shoot first take pictures later. Unless you are a hobbit and have a decent aim you wont have to worry about the bullets going anywhere besides in the dog and IF it goes through, into the dirt or concrete.

Bullets skip and fragment off the ground all the time. You have to be sure that your target is your backstop when you pull the trigger.

Yes, you can carry a loaded gun in your secured fenced yard. Does that mean you can discharge a firearm to defend a piece of property? That would be no. A dog and a stereo are the same as CA is concerned.

California Castle doctrine.

THE USE OF FIREARMS IN DEFENSE OF LIFE AND PROPERTY
California Firearms Laws 2007 27
[SNIP]

Not only not the law, but not relevant.

Find me a single county in this entire state that has a discharge restriction without an exception for lawful defense of life and property. I've never seen one.

-----------------------------------------

As for pits in general. They are by breed, animal aggressive and people friendly. Anybody who chooses to be a chew toy for a guard dog that doesn't know what they are doing is an idiot. Guard dogs are notorious for trying to bite anywhere other than the sleeve. They know the sleeve has no real effect and they want the real thing. It isn't an accident, and I've rolled a few K9's for "missing" during training. Pits do not have locking jaws, and there are effective ways of getting their mouths open if you know what you are doing (lead and copper combos are not one of the tricks BTW). I've been 5 lbs into a 6 lb trigger with a pit's COM behind the front sight and wouldn't have hesitated to finish the shot had it not turned tail. That said, there has only been one pit I haven't really enjoyed being around, and the one chow I've ever disliked was owned by the same DB.

Falstaff
08-10-2010, 11:03 AM
People need to STOP hinting at throwing poison over the fence. It's a FELONY. Several posts of this nature have already been deleted from this thread.

But by all means continue to post methods/calibers and tactics for SHOOTING dogs within city limits, cuz it's not a felony???

My old girlfriend was a pharmacist that worked nights; next door was a house with 2 "yippers". They barked CONSTANTLY. Every neighborhood has at least one, you know the drill: absentee owners, dogs never exercised or taken care of so they actually get mentally ill and just bark constantly 24-7. Well, my crazy girlfriend decided to prescribe something for them so she could sleep!! Phenobarbital! (an epilepsy drug) It seems it's a wonderful tranquilizer for dogs, I found out much later she was treating them 5 days a week. When she left, those poor dogs went through withdrawal symptoms like you wouldnt believe....

jb7706
08-10-2010, 12:09 PM
Another issue that we seem to have overlooked beyond the DA and the potential lawsuits: you still have to live next to your neighbor. Depending on the type of person they are shooting their dog may just escalate tensions to the point that life in your abode may become untenable. Be ready to vacate your house, and good luck renting or selling it with aggressive animals next door. If you are lucky you smoked the only dog they had. The good guys always seem to get totally screwed in these situations.

San FranPsycho
08-10-2010, 12:14 PM
Another negative pit bull owner story. To be honest, I would buy that shotgun and keep it in the room because the image I am conjuring in my head of somebody who owns 3 vicious pitbulls yet won't take responsibility when they clearly break into their neighbor's yard and attacks a puppy...is not a good one. Be careful with these people

Tim Leese
08-10-2010, 12:25 PM
Pitbull owners are worse than the dogs. I would shoot the owners first and then maybe the dogs.

dantodd
08-10-2010, 12:57 PM
But by all means continue to post methods/calibers and tactics for SHOOTING dogs within city limits, cuz it's not a felony???

My old girlfriend was a pharmacist that worked nights; next door was a house with 2 "yippers". They barked CONSTANTLY. Every neighborhood has at least one, you know the drill: absentee owners, dogs never exercised or taken care of so they actually get mentally ill and just bark constantly 24-7. Well, my crazy girlfriend decided to prescribe something for them so she could sleep!! Phenobarbital! (an epilepsy drug) It seems it's a wonderful tranquilizer for dogs, I found out much later she was treating them 5 days a week. When she left, those poor dogs went through withdrawal symptoms like you wouldnt believe....

1) Police officer posts stating that it is a felony to poison a dog.
2) You post disparaging actual legal methods of dealing with a dangerous dog
3) You then relate a story of not only poisoning dogs but of a pharmacist either stealing drugs or buying them without a script.


FAIL

CEDaytonaRydr
08-10-2010, 1:09 PM
Yes, it is legal to shoot a dog if you, your pets, or livestock are in danger...

This actually happened to a friend of mine from high school; his dog got out and started chasing the neighbor's horses. They killed the dog and the sheriff's deputy said that if anyone were going to be charged with anything, it would have been my friend for letting his dog run loose...

Maestro Pistolero
08-10-2010, 1:33 PM
But by all means continue to post methods/calibers and tactics for SHOOTING dogs within city limits, cuz it's not a felony??? WTF? If the circumstances are as described, and you were protecting your property against actively aggressive animals, then NO, it's not only NOT a felony, but unavoidable.

That is, unless you are of the mind that you are somehow obligated to watch them tear your property up without interference.

Have you actually read this information from experts in this thread?

Shadowdrop
08-10-2010, 2:05 PM
I'm dizzy from all the FUD in this thread...If a dog is HUGE, it isn't a pit bull. The APBT should not be larger than 60lbs in show condition. It is a medium-sized breed with the comparable jaw strength to any other medium breed and not nearly as strong as a larger dog like the GSD or Rottweiler. The APBT also tests above average on the ATTS temperment test, at 86% passing vs the average of 82.4%.

My AmStaff is the greatest dog alive. She is a former bait dog that was bred multiple times. She was found on the street and we rescued her at approx age 3. She is now 5. She gets along with dogs, cats, kids, old people, and everyone in between. She is an AKC Good Citizen and is in the process of becoming a DELTA Society-certified therapy dog. She changes minds about pit bulls every day. Dogs are only as good as their owners.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff172/shadowdrop1/Dogs/CIMG0059.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff172/shadowdrop1/Dogs/dog-beach-2.jpg

BillCA
08-10-2010, 3:31 PM
Shadowdrop,

Good point. There are pits and pit-mixes out there that make wonderful companion animals. A friend in Reno has one (Pit-Boxer mix) with a great disposition and every time I visit her most aggressive behavior is to demand to drape herself across my lap when I sit on the sofa. :p

But these are not the dogs the OP talks about. Nor others. The type that attack other animals, rip fences down to get at other animals or bite through steel belted radial tires in an effort to get to a motorist are NOT companion animals. They are undisciplined killers.

As to the OP - animals that will destroy a fence, door or barrier; or dig underneath one, just to attack another animal are not under proper control by the owner. It also shows the intense desire of the animal to attack another animal - many animals would give up when faced with a moderately sturdy fence. We can properly label animals who will spend lots of time and energy just to attack another animal as vicious.

Now, finding a vicious dog in my yard, attacking a puppy is going to result in that vicious dog getting killed. But having three of them in my yard is going to guarantee that police are called and a complaint filed against the neighbor for reckless endangerment, harboring vicious animals, spitting on the sidewalk and anything else I can find in the CPC. Plus, I'll likely sue him in small claims court for the vet bills, plus time required for the puppy's rehabilitation.

In the OP's case, if the dogs have retreated to their home yard, then he has no recourse except to file legal complaints (civil & criminal) and ensure he has copies of all police & A/C complaints in the event of another incident.

Note: To the poster with the aggressive pit sticking his head thru the fence and getting whacked with a shovel. A friend had that happen and it took four hard whacks with the shovel before the dog abated. Given that he's a very fit 6'4" and 220lbs those were not love taps either. Never underestimate the determination of a dog to reach its prey.

Shadowdrop
08-10-2010, 3:49 PM
Listen, I'm not arguing against the OP. If any dog attacks my dog, I will do what is necessary to protect my own. My post is in regards to the ridiculous responses about HUGE, lock-jaw pit bulls that are more dangerous than anything else walking this planet. There is a problem that exists in this country but it is a dog owner problem, not a pit bull problem.

aileron
08-10-2010, 4:55 PM
"That's right officer, the dog seemed rabid, and after it attacked my dog, I thought ... it ...was going to ... came after me! That's why I shot the dog, it was in self defense. I was afraid that my life, or worse, my <insert loved one here> could have been in danger from that vicious animal!"

Just seems obvious that if you make the statement your way, you might get sued, or go to jail. This way there is no question you feared for you life.

Of course best just to shut up and call your lawyer.

dantodd
08-10-2010, 4:57 PM
Listen, I'm not arguing against the OP. If any dog attacks my dog, I will do what is necessary to protect my own. My post is in regards to the ridiculous responses about HUGE, lock-jaw pit bulls that are more dangerous than anything else walking this planet. There is a problem that exists in this country but it is a dog owner problem, not a pit bull problem.

It wasn't just me thinking Pit Bulls were starting to sound like Chuck Norris.

Johnny.B.Good
08-10-2010, 5:28 PM
I would actually like to know the answer to my hypothetical from a LEO:

If a cop happened upon the scene described by the OP, would he use deadly force to stop the attack or would he consider the active destruction of property (in this case the killing of a puppy) unworthy of using his firearm?

inbox485
08-10-2010, 5:43 PM
I would actually like to know the answer to my hypothetical from a LEO:

If a cop happened upon the scene described by the OP, would he use deadly force to stop the attack or would he consider the active destruction of property (in this case the killing of a puppy) unworthy of using his firearm?

A lot of policies would say no (as at least one LEO has already said). But it isn't really relevant since the cop literally wouldn't have a dog in the fight. The better question is if the OP shot the pit bulls what if anything could he be charged with and what would be the mitigating circumstances.

Johnny.B.Good
08-10-2010, 5:50 PM
A lot of policies would say no (as at least one LEO has already said). But it isn't really relevant since the cop literally wouldn't have a dog in the fight. The better question is if the OP shot the pit bulls what if anything could he be charged with and what would be the mitigating circumstances.

I don't see how anyone could stand by and watch a puppy be mauled to death if it were in their power to stop it regardless of who it belongs to.

Can you imagine a cop standing by and watching in the presence of a distraught owner and doing nothing? I can't.

inbox485
08-10-2010, 6:02 PM
I don't see how anyone could stand by and watch a puppy be mauled to death if it were in their power to stop it regardless of who it belongs to.

Can you imagine a cop standing by and watching in the presence of a distraught owner and doing nothing? I can't.

I'm not saying the cop would do nothing (I have no idea what the average officer would do). Just saying that in at least some if not most jurisdictions, shooting a dog involved in a dog only fight would be an out of policy shooting. AFAIK, when a cop takes a shot out of policy they are treated as if they were not cop so it would be like an uninvolved neighbor taking the shot. If two of my neighbor's dogs were going at it, I can't say I'd go rambo with my 12 ga. I do happen to have experience with nasty dogs, so I'd be inclined to go hands on depending on the circumstances, but that's me. When I see some bozo trying to separate two dogs by the collars, my first thought is "ya know what, maybe that Darwin guy was onto something".

bruce381
08-10-2010, 6:13 PM
Gee, officer, the pitbull(s) came after me when I went into the yard to check on my dog. I had no other choice but to protect myself by shooting the dog(s).

To the owner: "I am so sorry for your loss.":rolleyes:

++1

bambam8d1
08-10-2010, 6:13 PM
Pitbull owners are worse than the dogs. I would shoot the owners first and then maybe the dogs.

1. ^^^You're a Douche...:D
2. pitbulls were bred to not be agressive towards humans. People always say they were bred to fight, it's i their blood to kill. Yes tey were bred to fight... oher dogs. And it is in their genes, it is up to responsible owners to make sure they don't get into trouble. And being bred for fighting other dogs, they also were bred to not bite humans... Think about this. If back in the day you were in there at a dog fight and you are breaking them up, do you want the dogs biting at you or just at eachother.

I would feel much more comfortable and confident going in andtrying to break apart two APBTs fighting than say a Rott and a GS... The rott and GS would most likely start biting the hell out of my hands and arms as soon as I got close to them and tried to pull them apart.

But I wont try too hard to convince people that not all pitbulls are evil killers... that would be like trying to convince some anti that not all gun owners are gangbangers or gun toting rednecks. But they will just never see that because they choose not to and are close minded

Ron-Solo
08-10-2010, 7:47 PM
I've had good luck using road flares and CO2 fire extinguishers to get dogs to back down. I've never had to shoot a dog yet. Pepper spray works pretty well, but isn't 100%.

CSACANNONEER
08-10-2010, 8:01 PM
It isn't illegal to "discharge" a crossbow within city limits.
Yes it is! In most municipalities, casting an arrow or bolt or dischaging an airgun is actually spelled out in the law and considered "discharging a firearm".


I love country living.

Yep!

isn't discharging a shotgun different than discharging a rife or pistol round in city limits

?????? Uh, yea, it's completely different.:rolleyes::rolleyes: It makes a louder bang and propells multiple projectiles. But, as far as the law goes, a shotgun in no different than a BB gun, Bow and arrow, rifle or handgun.


I've had good luck using road flares and CO2 fire extinguishers to get dogs to back down. I've never had to shoot a dog yet. Pepper spray works pretty well, but isn't 100%.

I've only shot one. After that, I stopped seeing the pack on the property I lived on. I guess the neighbors finally got the hint and stopped letting their dogs roam around. Oh, this was out towards Pozo and a long way from the nearest "city".

bplvr
08-10-2010, 8:20 PM
You can not discharge a firearm to protect property in CA.

You what you need to do.. but expect to be arrested for discharging your firearms and sued for injuring your neighbor's dogs.

Not saying it's right.. but that's the way it is.

========================================
This ^^^^ You may NOT protect property with a firearm in this idiot state.

However, if the dog bares his teeth at YOU .....

Cali-Shooter
08-10-2010, 8:38 PM
First, let this fellow Vet. thank you for your years of service to our country.

Your son can sue the neighbor in Small Claims Court. He does not need an attorney. Small filing fee and fee to a Process Server. Take photos of the fence, your pet. Hopefully he or the Vet. took before photos. Bring a copy of the Vet. bill. You will need to SDT a copy of the Animal Control report.

People tend to confuse criminal with civil. A/C did not have sufficient evidence to issue a citation. Civil only requires a preponderance of the evidence.

I would also suggest he push A/C for a citation for the neighbor for not keeping them within their yard if this occurs again or if they get to the street. If there are small children at your sons home and the neighbor will not 'man up' he might consider a TRO and a PRO against the neighbor. If he is not willing to take responsibility for his animals he is not a good neighbor.

WASP or Pepper spray can be effective in an animal attack. If a weapon is his only recourse, that will have to be his decision. If the neighbor can establish less than deadly force could have been used he could successfully sue your son for the death of the dogs. I know, civil law is lots of fun.

Any questions, use our site to communicate.

Billy Jack
'The Force is strong with this one'


www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

Sound advice. OP, this is the procedure you need to follow if you are not already. Sorry for your loss, wish you best of luck on this issue.

Munk
08-10-2010, 9:02 PM
When I see some bozo trying to separate two dogs by the collars, my first thought is "ya know what, maybe that Darwin guy was onto something".

Dogs fighting eachother are like a husband and wife in a domestic dispute. Try to intervene and they BOTH turn on you.

There's also the problem that even the sweetest dogs have: Once they identify something as "prey" or an "enemy", and have begun to attack it; it becomes VERY difficult to convince the animal to stop its attack before it's done with it. The problems arise when a person (usually smaller/weaker/hurt/sick) winds up identified as prey, or a douchebag hurts the dog or a person in some way and becomes identified as an enemy.

As far as pepper spray goes, you're going to want some incredibly strong spray if you want to successfully repel a VERY aggressive dog. Most house dogs that aren't overly aggressive will be sent off by regular spray. This is from my father's experience as a postal carrier. Most regular loose dogs will just go away when the spray is sent in their general direction (strong sense of smell plus capsaicin equals pain). Once in a while though, he would run into some ghetto douchebag's hyper-aggressive dog (usually pit, but sometimes GS or other) and it would not be deterred by his regular spray. This led to my father beating a hasty retreat, calling animal controll, and mail being blocked to that house for some time until the animal situation was taken care of.




Also, self defense when in reasonable fear of your life is ALWAYS justified.

bernieb90
08-10-2010, 9:39 PM
Yes, you can carry a loaded gun in your secured fenced yard. Does that mean you can discharge a firearm to defend a piece of property? That would be no. A dog and a stereo are the same as CA is concerned.


I don't look at it that way. I can throw a stereo out the 2nd story window of my house, and nothing happens, but if I do it to my dog I go to jail. Some cities don't even allow tail, or ear cropping of dogs any more. This indicates to me that dogs have been given certain rights that mere property like a stereo does not have. There seem to be ever increasing rights given to some animals (cute puppies), and ever decreasing rights given to others (pitbulls). I would guess that in this case it would be very difficult to get a conviction on discharging a firearm.

KylaGWolf
08-10-2010, 10:42 PM
really want to stop the neighbors dog coming through your fence. simple electrify your side. Dog tries to break through hits it and gets zapped. No more issue of dog breaking through fence. Downside is you would have to make sure you dog doesn't go to the fence.

Maestro Pistolero
08-10-2010, 10:48 PM
Could everybody get it through their heads that just one aggressive dog in the middle of an attack is a threat to you as well, and therefore the question of whether you can shoot to protect your property need not even be answered.

Nevertheless, it's pretty clear you can shoot an animal that's on your property and actively destroying it. You are not expected to risk a limb to save your dog. The OP had three dogs in his backyard.

If the dog(s) are not in the middle of the attack, AND they obey commands to "shoo, get out here" etc. then shooting is probably unnecessary and therefore ill-advised. If they show any aggression, then it is a no-brainer.

JohnJW
08-10-2010, 10:57 PM
Gee, officer, the pitbull(s) came after me when I went into the yard to check on my dog. I had no other choice but to protect myself by shooting the dog(s).



That's what I am thinking. It doesn't have to be a pit pull. If I see any large dog attacking a family pet in my own backyard the only thing I worry about is what's in the background if I miss or over penetrates. . . .

As a courtesy I will apologize to the owner of the attacking dog because he/she is probably just attached to their dog as I am do mine, but I am in my own backyard and I am defending myself.

daveinwoodland
08-10-2010, 11:07 PM
Kill them, they are useless animals IMO

2Bear
08-10-2010, 11:29 PM
I can't imagine my adrenaline level watching three pits attack my best friend.

Was a time when a fella' used some salt shot to scare off the neighbor's hound.

Times have changed, but I suspect my "peers" would still agree that three bloodied pits constitute a deadly weapon..., even here in SF.

CO2 extinguishers do seem to work wonders on dog fights FWIW.

(Postscript: My dog has already almost lost an eye to a pit, dog just lunged at him from the lap of a homeless dude. Watch those Chows too, I had a nephew in-law who lost his face to one. His dad was at my house when he got the news, he threw the phone through the wall.)

abusalim81
08-10-2010, 11:51 PM
Wait so shoot who the violent dogs or their owners? JUST KIDDING LOL.... Seems like the owners of the dogs need an asss wooping though! JACKASSES!

Seesm
08-11-2010, 12:36 AM
I think I would be worried about shooting my own dog but I may kill the bad dog with a good knife "carefully"

Maestro Pistolero
08-11-2010, 8:00 AM
I think I would be worried about shooting my own dog but I may kill the bad dog with a good knife "carefully"At three to five feet away?

sv_1
08-11-2010, 8:06 AM
A good family friend tried to defend his dog from a pit. It grabbed his hand. He crushed the dogs skull on the curb, but it didn't let go until the police arrived to dispatch it.

I'd strongly advise against close in combat with any aggresive animal.

To the op, please follow through with a lawsuit and getting animal control to register those dogs as aggressive.

inbox485
08-11-2010, 10:36 AM
========================================
This ^^^^ You may NOT protect property with a firearm in this idiot state.

However, if the dog bares his teeth at YOU .....

This supposed law may exist in the minds of many CA residents, but it doesn't effin exist. There is no law saying you can't kill a dog trying to kill yours. There is nothing to charge you with. In fact you can use lethal force against people to defend property. Remember the Koreans that opened fire on rioters during the LA riots? Guess what? NO CHARGES!!! They were defending property and were explicitly protected under CA PC 197.

thayne
08-11-2010, 10:48 AM
A good family friend tried to defend his dog from a pit. It grabbed his hand. He crushed the dogs skull on the curb, but it didn't let go until the police arrived to dispatch it.

I'd strongly advise against close in combat with any aggresive animal.

To the op, please follow through with a lawsuit and getting animal control to register those dogs as aggressive.

I had a pitbull attack my german shepherd while on a walk. I grabbed the dog by his back legs and swung him around and let go. He flew about 10 feet, hit the ground and came after me! Just before he got to me, my dog come around and t-boned him and pretty much tore him a new one. By the time I got my dog off him he wasnt moving much. The owner showed up about that time and hauled him off. The owner didnt say anything. He knew he was in the wrong.

wildcard
08-11-2010, 2:01 PM
This supposed law may exist in the minds of many CA residents, but it doesn't effin exist. There is no law saying you can't kill a dog trying to kill yours. There is nothing to charge you with. In fact you can use lethal force against people to defend property. Remember the Koreans that opened fire on rioters during the LA riots? Guess what? NO CHARGES!!! They were defending property and were explicitly protected under CA PC 197.

Just wanted to tag this pearl of wisdom for when you shoot/kill somebody while defending your property in CA.

gabe123
08-11-2010, 3:37 PM
2 words:

JAPANESE SWORD

inbox485
08-11-2010, 4:35 PM
Just wanted to tag this pearl of wisdom for when you shoot/kill somebody while defending your property in CA.

Not likely to happen. The insurance deductible is likely to be less than the trouble of dealing with bone heads that can't read black and white. Not to mention the odds of a situation where I could be defending property but not defending my life are astronomical. But yes, if there is ever anything comparable to the LA riots where I live I will shoot rioters to prevent property damage and put an end to felonious mayhem and you are welcome to sit behind your keyboard and remind me of this post.

Are we done here?

Wulf
08-11-2010, 5:48 PM
I would actually like to know the answer to my hypothetical from a LEO:

If a cop happened upon the scene described by the OP, would he use deadly force to stop the attack or would he consider the active destruction of property (in this case the killing of a puppy) unworthy of using his firearm?

Yes. Shoot worthy. Here's a recent example. hhttp://auburnjournal.com/detail/149043.html?content_source=archive&category_id=&search_filter=pit+bull+attack&user_id=&event_mode=&event_ts_from=&event_ts_to=&list_type=&order_by=&order_sort=&content_class=1&sub_type=&town_id=
You'll notice that the police tried several lower levels on the force continum before shooting. But typical defensive use doctrine would not mandate that if you did not have it available or if you were in a situation like there where you had some other guy with a gun in his had to back you up while you tried the lower level.

As an aside. Major kudos to the officer that did the deed. It takes a lot of confidence in your marksmanship to shoot in a trailer park in a case which could be armchair QB'd as maybe not necessary.

w55
08-11-2010, 5:58 PM
I don't know the exact list, or the p.c. or whether puppies are livestock or not, but you are allowed to use deadly force against animals to protect livestock.

My family was sued after we shot 3 dogs running the cattle at 2 am. The dogs owners were poaching, and the dogs were shot while chasing the cows in a field. The owner said he was watering his pets when we negently killed his poor dogs.

It eneded up in court, we won but it cost alot getting a lawyer ect....And mind you this was in 1977 and the property is 30 miles from town and very rurual...game warden said next time toss em in a ditch and dont call it in....pretty lame huh?

Seesm
08-19-2010, 9:33 PM
At three to five feet away?

YEs for sure as the dosg are jumping around... Yeah

desmark6
08-19-2010, 10:28 PM
Well, if it was my back yard, I went to the aid of my puppy when the 3 dogs charged towards me in an aggressive manner, I was in fear for my life not knowing what they were going to do, I did not want to shoot, I felt I was forced to shoot to protect myself.......

Pavel
08-19-2010, 11:51 PM
I hate when pit bulls are referred to as "vicious fighting machines" and "bred for fighting" and all the other garbage about pit's being aggressive dogs. It is complete bull***t. I grew up around pit bulls and they were some of the sweetest dogs you would ever meet. Sure, there are pit bulls that are bred to fight and unfortunately a good percentage of people buying pit's nowadays want them to be mean so they abuse them. You can make ANY breed of dog vicious if you abuse it or fight it with other dogs. Pitbulls have a bad rap because of the media, the same media that talks so highly of us law-abiding gun owners as opposed to criminals involved in shootings with those evil assault weapons....

Anyways, as far as shooting ANY breed of dog attacking mine, I would not hesitate for one second. Hopefully your son can at least get the vet bills paid this time around, but either way he should make that firearm purchase and be ready for next time if it happens. After all, he has all the legal right in the world to shoot them if they become aggressive toward him once he tries to shoo them away.

postal
08-20-2010, 10:11 PM
Didnt read the whole thread.

A LOT of FUD here......


1- if the son went into the yard and the pitbulls were still there- the dogs could have attacked him- No problem using any and every force necessary.

2- "livestock"- yeah.... thats been covered- dunno if dogs are considered livestock, but it's an easy out if it is.

3- Call animal control again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again.

4- small claims absolutey.

5- Livestock or not- protection of property or not- fact- 3 pitbulls.

***PIT BULLS***

This is the golden ticket right here. Pit bulls have the WORST REPUTATION of all dogs- partly deserved, partly bad owners- there are other breeds not feared as they should be.... chow chows are the highest on my list.....

Just the fact that they were pitbulls- you could kill them in your yard with whatever weapon available including a firearm- and simply because they were ***PITBULLS***- I would expect nothing less and nothing more than a pat on the back. Their reputation is THAT BAD- Discharging a firearm to protect yourself from 3 vicious pitbulls on your own property, is a pat on the back- just make sure the gun is legal.

nrgcruizer
08-20-2010, 11:00 PM
This supposed law may exist in the minds of many CA residents, but it doesn't effin exist. There is no law saying you can't kill a dog trying to kill yours. There is nothing to charge you with. In fact you can use lethal force against people to defend property. Remember the Koreans that opened fire on rioters during the LA riots? Guess what? NO CHARGES!!! They were defending property and were explicitly protected under CA PC 197.

He was also shooting at looters who shot a pregnant woman. Let's include life on that one. ;) BTW, somehow the media mysteriously didn't report that. They just showed him shooting. Which is to be expected from people that's telling the truth...Right! ok..hmmm

Maestro Pistolero
08-21-2010, 12:02 AM
Can we stop with the thinly-veiled suggestions to poison the animals? It is a felony. Shooting them is not under the circumstances described, and it's a lot more human.

Zdiddy
08-21-2010, 12:16 AM
I'd make sure the dogs found their way onto my property again and I'd be waiting with 00 buck. Sue the bastard, he obviously doesn't treat his Pit Bulls right. They aren't violent dogs by nature. They are territorial, sure, but so is a Golden Retriever. The difference is that Pit Bulls are CAPABLE of more damage because of their physical traits. That doesn't mean that they are more prone to violence though. I had a Pit that stayed at home while my mom ran a day care. The dog had 8-10 kids jumping on it and playing with it all day and never once barked, bit or growled at any of them. I hate when people get Pit Bulls and make them mean. The owner should come down with an accute case of lead poisoning too....

Let's get some things straight. The American Pit Bull Terrier was bred to fight other pitbulls. The breeders of APBT would breed for dog agression(DA) but they would cull(put to sleep) any man bitter APBT. Being a man biter was never part of the APBT genetics. If you guys seen a real APBT you would never guess it was a pitbull. They range from 30-50lbs and some rare occassions up to 80lbs. What "pitbulls" you see today are actually refered toas the American Bully. The AmBully is the new dog fade going on these days. People breed these dogs endlessly and they do it just for the money. The dogs then have plenty of health issues, are human agressive(which is a bad trait.. or the animal is unsound to be someones pet.

They aren't any more aggressive than their owners train them to be.

Agression is in the dogs genes. Its also not smart to keep bully breeds together due to the fact that they are DA.

Pits are especially dangerous because of their tenacity, bite and power.. Their 'death bite' has already been talked about here, but one thing nobody has mentioned is how hard it is to stop them once they've begun attacking. In most police reports involving an attacking pit, it takes multiple shots to get the dog to let go. Not die or collapse, just let go. That is why I've decided if I ever see a pit attacking a person around my house I won't hesitate to use deadly force. Also, no pits allowed in/near/around my house.

Yes they can be sweet dogs, but do yourself a favor and read up on canine psychology and how the pit was bred. Learn how to you keep your kids and animals safe from attacks. Most attacks happen when the pit is around unfamiliar people or in an unfamiliar place. That's why I don't allow pits at my home. All dogs can have a violent streak, pits are just so powerful and their attack is more deadly than other dog's.

This is an informative website on the subject - http://dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs.htm

There is actually a easier to seperate pitbull from something he has a hold of.you have to use a parting stick or breadstick, which is used to seperate the jaws and recover what he had in his mouth. If done propely and in time very minimul damage is done by the dog.

The law would beg to differ with you: CA PC 197



Bullets skip and fragment off the ground all the time. You have to be sure that your target is your backstop when you pull the trigger.



Not only not the law, but not relevant.

Find me a single county in this entire state that has a discharge restriction without an exception for lawful defense of life and property. I've never seen one.

-----------------------------------------

As for pits in general. They are by breed, animal aggressive and people friendly. Anybody who chooses to be a chew toy for a guard dog that doesn't know what they are doing is an idiot. Guard dogs are notorious for trying to bite anywhere other than the sleeve. They know the sleeve has no real effect and they want the real thing. It isn't an accident, and I've rolled a few K9's for "missing" during training. Pits do not have locking jaws, and there are effective ways of getting their mouths open if you know what you are doing (lead and copper combos are not one of the tricks BTW). I've been 5 lbs into a 6 lb trigger with a pit's COM behind the front sight and wouldn't have hesitated to finish the shot had it not turned tail. That said, there has only been one pit I haven't really enjoyed being around, and the one chow I've ever disliked was owned by the same DB.

Exactly. A bully breed is just as dangerous as a gun in the hands of someone who is unfamiliar with it. It takes a really responsible person to own a pitbull type dog.

I'm dizzy from all the FUD in this thread...If a dog is HUGE, it isn't a pit bull. The APBT should not be larger than 60lbs in show condition. It is a medium-sized breed with the comparable jaw strength to any other medium breed and not nearly as strong as a larger dog like the GSD or Rottweiler. The APBT also tests above average on the ATTS temperment test, at 86% passing vs the average of 82.4%.

My AmStaff is the greatest dog alive. She is a former bait dog that was bred multiple times. She was found on the street and we rescued her at approx age 3. She is now 5. She gets along with dogs, cats, kids, old people, and everyone in between. She is an AKC Good Citizen and is in the process of becoming a DELTA Society-certified therapy dog. She changes minds about pit bulls every day. Dogs are only as good as their owners.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff172/shadowdrop1/Dogs/CIMG0059.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff172/shadowdrop1/Dogs/dog-beach-2.jpg

Congrats.

1. ^^^You're a Douche...:D
2. pitbulls were bred to not be agressive towards humans. People always say they were bred to fight, it's i their blood to kill. Yes tey were bred to fight... oher dogs. And it is in their genes, it is up to responsible owners to make sure they don't get into trouble. And being bred for fighting other dogs, they also were bred to not bite humans... Think about this. If back in the day you were in there at a dog fight and you are breaking them up, do you want the dogs biting at you or just at eachother.

I would feel much more comfortable and confident going in andtrying to break apart two APBTs fighting than say a Rott and a GS... The rott and GS would most likely start biting the hell out of my hands and arms as soon as I got close to them and tried to pull them apart.

But I wont try too hard to convince people that not all pitbulls are evil killers... that would be like trying to convince some anti that not all gun owners are gangbangers or gun toting rednecks. But they will just never see that because they choose not to and are close minded

Wells said man. People will eat anything the media serves them without actually doing any research for themselves.

Another thing the American Pit Bull Terrier was once Americas number one companion but to the medias manipulation of todays people they are seen as vicious uncontrolable killers.

Zdiddy
08-21-2010, 12:19 AM
To the OP it is the fault of the idiot neighbor who left his animals un supervised or properly contain. They should of either been on a proper chain spot or in a kennel with a roof cover. Your neighbor is also an idiot leaving three of them together due to there nature of being dog aggresive. One day he might come home to a blood soak backyard and three dogs dead due to fighting each other.

44_mag_de
08-21-2010, 11:21 AM
I've got a neighbor who has three pits himself. While it wasn't too bad when he only had one, a couple months ago he acquired two more. Now whenever I'm in my backyard his dogs go crazy, growling and barking. I've got two small kids and I'm concerned that someday these dogs might find a way into my yard. Considering these are probably smart dogs, would spraying the fence whenever I'm out there with bear or pepper spray be a good deterrent for them to not run up to the fence or would this be too extreme?

Shadowdrop
08-21-2010, 11:50 AM
Negative reinforcement is not nearly as effective as positive reinforcement, exercise, training, and discipline. APBTs are an highly intelligent breed that require mental stimulation. It sounds like your neighbor is not providing those things and he has 3 frustrated dogs. Doing something like you are talking about will only cause higher frustration and excitement, most likely.

Maestro Pistolero
08-21-2010, 11:53 AM
would spraying the fence whenever I'm out there with bear or pepper spray be a good deterrent for them to not run up to the fence or would this be too extreme?It just wouldn't do anything. It's not a repellent unless sprayed directly on to a subject's mucous membranes (eyes mouth nose).

BluNorthern
08-21-2010, 12:03 PM
I've never owned a pit bull but back in the day knew people who did. Some were raised only for fighting and were a reflection of their owners...worthless.
On the other hand, one of my best friends had a pair, male and female, that were littermates and had spent everyday of their lives together. Slept in the house, never restrained, played with the kids and each other...sweet, mellow dogs. One day he was out walking the dogs, they were about 3 at the time, as he always did, on a road on the property...the male looked at the female and attacked her, ripping out her throat and killing her on the spot. No reason, no provocation. When I moved to Idaho a couple of neighbors had pit bulls, let them run around the neighborhood. My sons were both under 5 at the time. I went to both owners and explained where I lived, told them about my young sons, and told them if I ever saw either of their dogs in my yard I'd shoot them on site. Only times I saw the dogs outside after that were in their yards on their chains.

ErikTheRed
08-21-2010, 3:50 PM
To the OP: If the dogs got through my fence and were viciously attacking my dogs, I would blast those beasts straight into tomorrow and never bat an eye....... the law be damned. No way I'm gonna stand there while Pit Bulls kill my family's pets, and no way I'm gonna endanger myself by getting in the middle of it. This is a case of "shoot first, answer questions later". Sometimes, the law just gets in the way of what needs to be done, especially here in this Godforsaken state. And ya know what else? My neighbors wouldn't even get an apology. I'd probably flip em' the bird.

I have a 103 lb. Rhodesian Ridgeback who could handle himself just fine against a Pit Bull, but even still, if the dog got through my fence and was attacking my dog, it's gonna lose a fight against my Rossi M971.

P08
08-21-2010, 4:16 PM
Dont be a douchebag, tame them and fatten them up till the SHTF happens. Secondary or primary food source, unless you favor "Carne des Hombres".

locosway
08-21-2010, 7:37 PM
I've got a neighbor who has three pits himself. While it wasn't too bad when he only had one, a couple months ago he acquired two more. Now whenever I'm in my backyard his dogs go crazy, growling and barking. I've got two small kids and I'm concerned that someday these dogs might find a way into my yard. Considering these are probably smart dogs, would spraying the fence whenever I'm out there with bear or pepper spray be a good deterrent for them to not run up to the fence or would this be too extreme?

Have you talked to the neighbor yet? Maybe get the dogs on video being aggressive and then show him. If he shrugs it off you could tell him you could be forced to contact animal control if the situation doesn't get resolved. If all else fails then I'd start with something more dirty.

We're lucky to have a large German Shepherd who loves our kids, and we have bricks walls all around.

pigman
08-21-2010, 8:16 PM
Just move, it would be cheaper in the long run.

locosway
08-21-2010, 8:22 PM
Just move, it would be cheaper in the long run.

Yep, that's the best way to deal with aggressive dogs, just move! /sarcasm

postal
08-21-2010, 8:42 PM
, would spraying the fence whenever I'm out there with bear or pepper spray be a good deterrent for them to not run up to the fence or would this be too extreme?

I think that if anything... it would help desensitize those dogs to the pepper spray. Making it ineffectual when you actually needed it.

-----------------------------------

On a side note, I went to a customers house on Thurs. Parked in the driveway, and the next door neighbor had an Am. bull dog chained to a tree on the property line.

I didnt see the dog when I got out of the work van, but it charged at me, and had enough chain to get to me.

I'm really good with animals usually- So it making a big show didnt bother me too much though I wasnt happy about it. I didnt even grab my kershaw from my back pocket. He was lunging at my ankles- I didnt think he would actually make contact- just making a show- (I have a bit of aggressive dog experience... I'm pretty familiar with aggressive dog behavior- didnt think it would actually get a real bite in.... and it didnt)

What really teed me off was the a hole owner who was backing out of his driveway at the time. He stopped, and got out of his car... and says, "are you gonna be here for a while?"

No apology- no nothing- "Are you gonna be here for a while?" (so I should move my dog who is on my neighbors property attacking you?)

Thats when I *should have* drew my kershaw and flipped it open- for the owner to see.

Then tell him, if the dog attacks me again, I'll kill it, then call the police on him. Then ask him if he'll be there for awhile for the police to show up.:confused::confused:

inbox485
08-21-2010, 9:14 PM
It just wouldn't do anything. It's not a repellent unless sprayed directly on to a subject's mucous membranes (eyes mouth nose).

It burns skin too, and the wears off in 30 minutes stuff is complete BS. It wears off when it is done reacting. The stuff also does not come off with soap and water. I tested an old canister and got some on my hands. Washed thoroughly and latter went to the bathroom. GREAT BALLS OF FIRE is all I have to say. The next day I was working in a lab with gloves on and when my hands started sweating, they burned again for a few hours. Changing gloves and washing my hands just delayed the inevitable. OC is nasty stuff.

Wild Bill
08-21-2010, 10:51 PM
You can not discharge a firearm to protect property in CA.

You what you need to do.. but expect to be arrested for discharging your firearms and sued for injuring your neighbor's dogs.

Not saying it's right.. but that's the way it is.

Sorry to say that is BS, as I have shot many dogs that were chasing and or attacking my cattle and will do so in the future. And I have the LEO's blessing!

Kestryll
08-22-2010, 10:04 AM
Can we stop with the thinly-veiled suggestions to poison the animals? It is a felony.
Excellent suggestion.

44_mag_de
08-22-2010, 1:20 PM
Have you talked to the neighbor yet? Maybe get the dogs on video being aggressive and then show him. If he shrugs it off you could tell him you could be forced to contact animal control if the situation doesn't get resolved. If all else fails then I'd start with something more dirty.

We're lucky to have a large German Shepherd who loves our kids, and we have bricks walls all around.

I haven't talked to my neighbor about it, matter of fact I've never talked to him other than an occasional nod. It wasn't a big deal at all when he just had one dog. Fortunately, my kids don't play on that side of the house anyways but I'm always concern about the possibility of the dogs somehow coming through the fence onto my property. Kind of gross when I walk alongside the house where the dogs are at. Every time I walk by the fence a whole swarm of flys go flying off the fence. I can only imagine how dirty it must be on the other side.

I do know that he doesn't get mail delivered to his home...I got a "vicious dog notice" dropped into my mailbox once that was addressed to his home.

bondmid003
09-26-2010, 12:42 AM
I posted this in a similar thread:

A friend of mine from high school had a very good remedy for a similar situation involving dogs or even people. He went out and bought a couple aluminum tee ball bats and put one in his truck. The idea was (and he was right about this) that a full grown male can swing a bat that size fairly quickly and with only one hand if need be. They were the perfect size for whacking an aggressive dog (or person for that matter) until they left you alone.

locosway
09-26-2010, 5:42 AM
I posted this in a similar thread:

A friend of mine from high school had a very good remedy for a similar situation involving dogs or even people. He went out and bought a couple aluminum tee ball bats and put one in his truck. The idea was (and he was right about this) that a full grown male can swing a bat that size fairly quickly and with only one hand if need be. They were the perfect size for whacking an aggressive dog (or person for that matter) until they left you alone.

I've heard of people being harassed if stopped while having a bat in the car. Especially if it's obvious the person doesn't play ball, have a glove and ball, etc.

RomanDad
09-26-2010, 6:58 AM
Well, if it was my back yard, I went to the aid of my puppy when the 3 dogs charged towards me in an aggressive manner, I was in fear for my life not knowing what they were going to do, I did not want to shoot, I felt I was forced to shoot to protect myself.......

Yep

Rugerdaddy
09-26-2010, 9:19 AM
Update. Animal Control never did anything. The pit bulls ripped through two fences to get to the puppy, tore the pup apart enough for plenty of blood, stitches, and $700 vet bill, but that's not enough to take any action. What's the purpose of Animal Control, if it's not to control animals?! Anyway, my son ended up building a $4,000 chain link fence inside the "Good Neighbor" fence (ironic name) to prevent a reoccurance. He and his wife are taking the neighbor to small claims court. They plan to claim the cost of the fence, but I told them they'll probably only get the $700 for the vet bill, if that. The court may be no better than Animal Control.

bondmid003
09-26-2010, 9:57 AM
I've heard of people being harassed if stopped while having a bat in the car. Especially if it's obvious the person doesn't play ball, have a glove and ball, etc.

I kept a bat in my car for years and never had a problem. Even if a cop were to harass you for it, there's nothing he can do about you having it in your car. Or just put a glove and ball in your car because this sounds like BS to me.

2Bear
09-26-2010, 3:33 PM
Or just put a glove and ball in your car

A sap glove and some ball ammo...
:eek:

BillCA
09-27-2010, 1:52 AM
I kept a bat in my car for years and never had a problem. Even if a cop were to harass you for it, there's nothing he can do about you having it in your car. Or just put a glove and ball in your car because this sounds like BS to me.

If you have kids, it's easy -- my son/daughter left that in the car. Simple. It's part of a child's sporting equipment. Or, you can tell him it belongs to a neighbor's kid who left it in your driveway.

2Bear
09-27-2010, 2:25 AM
For good reason this thread will not die:

Don't mess with another man's dog.

Seriously, take my wife... Please.

spiderpigs
09-27-2010, 7:35 AM
If you have kids, it's easy -- my son/daughter left that in the car. Simple. It's part of a child's sporting equipment. Or, you can tell him it belongs to a neighbor's kid who left it in your driveway.

why should you have to lie, it seems to me thats a more risky path to take.

ocspeedracer
09-27-2010, 7:43 AM
You can not discharge a firearm to protect property in CA.

You what you need to do.. but expect to be arrested for discharging your firearms and sued for injuring your neighbor's dogs.

Not saying it's right.. but that's the way it is.

back it up with some law please. If those dogs were still in my yard when i got home and growled at me or ran towords me...there'd be some dead dogs in my yard.

2Bear
09-27-2010, 8:33 AM
One could actually read this thread... (Or not.)

steve91104
09-27-2010, 7:30 PM
I'd also be careful people are crazy about their pets.

Exactly - this actually worries me more that the legal implications of killing somebody's idiot dog

inbox485
09-28-2010, 9:06 AM
why should you have to lie, it seems to me thats a more risky path to take.

+1. Keeping a bat for SD is just nuts. It is a felony in CA. You'd be better off both legally and preparedness wise just concealing a gun (and less likely to get caught). Even if you did get caught you would be dealing with misdemeanor charges and not loosing gun rights for life.

Exactly - this actually worries me more that the legal implications of killing somebody's idiot dog

This is actually two fold. Most aggressive dogs have absolute pieces of work for owners. There is a reason the dog needs an attitude adjustment. It learned everything from its owner. So not only do you have the aspect of the owner caring about the dog and being upset, you have to deal with an owner that is likely more violent and has a worse attitude than the dog.

Mongoblack23
09-28-2010, 9:36 AM
http://www.flemingoutdoors.com/hot-shot-red-battery-operated-cattle-prod.html

couple hits with this bad boy, those dogs will piss themselves just hearing your voice....